Tungsten: The Cancer Shrapnel

[nbk2000]

During my research, I've read about how many US weapons are being loaded with tungsten as shrapnel, instead of DU (Depleted Uranium), because of concerns over the enviromental impact of DU's radioactivity.

But, research of the effects of weapons-grade W (Tungsten) shrapnel suggests that the cure might be as bad as the disease.

Testing on rats showed that, after implantation with W fragments in a ratio similar to that of wounded soldiers from GW1, 100% of the rats developed extremely aggressive tumors of a rare cancer, which formed around the pellets within 4-5 months after implantation.

Every rat so exposed had to be put down because the cancer metastasized to their lungs and brains within a few weeks.

The pellets are made by Aerojet Ordnance, 1mm x 2mm and weighing 27.5 mg (small!) and consisted of 91.1% tungsten, 6% nickel, and 2.9% cobalt.

Other research is looking into a connection to leukemia.

Tungsten powder is being added to IM explosives in new ordance to increase both penetration (high weight density), and to form 'micro-shrapnel' - high-velocity, high temperature inert metal particles - but not carrying enough mass to carry more than 40x charge diameter - as part of the DIME (Dense Inert Metal Explosive) project.

Because the dense W fragments so effectively couple the an explosives destructive energy into the target, compared to simple airblast, less explosive is needed for increased effect. :)

Now, what does this mean for us?

Powdered W, at $52 per pound, is available from a well-known ammunition reloading supplier with no questions asked. A specialty supplier has it at $8/pound, if you can get them to sell it to you.

Anyways...the addition of powdered W to bare explosive charges could greatly increase lethality of small charges, such as letter-bombs.

A bare charge that would normally just blow off hands now kills anyone with a yard of it. Normally, you'd have to add shrapnel to ensure a kill, but that could harm others within the room. Now, you can ensure a kill without collateral injuries, except through possible secondary fragmentation of a desk or such.

[Chris The Great]

Very interesting NBK! I read a journal a while ago and was wondering why they were testing some comps with 50% tungsten powder content! I'll definately try picking some up and seeing this increased destructive effect firsthand (well, maybe not firsthand, maybe from 100 feet).

Found the journal (attached). RDX/W 50/50 has much decreased VoD (6501 vs 8489) and Gurney Energy (1.89 vs 2.87), but a MUCH higher density (2.92 vs. 1.73, these are NOT maximum densities, but the densities tested) and plate dent test (8.09 vs 7.71, or even 7.82 for HMX). Also, it is more resistant to heat, the explosion temperature (6*C increase per minute) is 237*C vs 210*C for pure RDX.

[akinrog]

According to SIRI toxicity data, Tungsten is not listed as carcinogen/tumorogen. But I strongly suspect that the culprit is cobalt and nickel. Cobalt causes mutation in leukocytes and tumors and nickel causes tumors and mutation too.
Here are the links.
http://www2.siri.org/msds/tox/f/q138/q374.html
http://www2.siri.org/msds/tox/f/q43/q126.html

[nbk2000]

It's not the individual metals, but the synergistic effect of them combined, that's causing the cancer.

Tungsten, cobalt, or nickel by themselves have little effect when compared to the effects of the combined metals.

See the file at http://rapidshare.de/files/21396374/Tungsten_Cancer.pdf

Also, W powder is being used to make so-called 'Green' bullets. That is, lead-free bullets, that are supposedly enviromentally friendly, hence the 'Green'.

But could it be that the US government has known all along about the cancer effect, and is using the pretext of 'enviromentally friendly' as a cover for ensuring enemy deaths through quick cancer? Hmmm...sneaky!

[NoltaiR]

I keep looking around but I can't find anymore info on this topic. Possible because a technology like this could be infinitely dangerous in the wrong hands. I keep trying to find out why those elements would cause a cancer.

Based on the Wikipedia's defintion of cancer:

Cancer is a class of diseases or disorders characterized by uncontrolled division of cells and the ability of these cells to invade other tissues, either by direct growth into adjacent tissue through invasion or by implantation into distant sites by metastasis (in which cancer cells are transported through the blood or lymphatic system). Cancer may affect people at all ages, but risk increases with age. It is one of the leading causes of death in developed countries.

Are these metals causing an abnormality in the DNA structure that is affecting cell division in the areas of the implantation?

Or are particles of this compound traveling through blood and disrupting something much more?

Metals like these (meaning there are many more like this) have a toxic potential to them because they have the ability to absorb though human tissue and affect a limitless number of cells, such as the very common mercury or lead poisoning.

I really wish I could find more on this. And for all you home experimenters out there.. I probably would suggest staying away from something like this. Leave testing like this to the guys with lab rats and proper chemical suits.

[nbk2000]

I'm assuming you read the file?

They themselves don't know the exact reason for such an effect, but heavy metals, such as lead and mercury, are known for their cancer-causing abilities. And tungsten hasn't come into really widespread use until recently, compared to lead and mercury, which have been known since ancient times.

The idea came to me that, rather than trying to kill someone outright, might it not be more terrifyingly effective to use such a thing to induce a ravenous cancer is someone as punishment?

A very small explosive charge, such as a sheet of det-flex, is coated with a dusting of tungsten-alloy powder, and placed somewhere where it will be in close proximity to the victims body.

Upon detonation, thousands of particles are embedded under the skin, in such a manner that the surgeons will never be able to remove all of them. And the particles that remain behind are foci for cancer formation.

The victim dies months later, withered and screaming, eaten from within. :)

Or, they beat it, but the treatments leave them feeble and bankrupt. :p

A Win-Win. :D

I wonder about covert implantation...

You know how there are now Band-Aids that have silver coating to improve anti-bacterial effectiveness? What about dusting some band-aids with tungsten and wait for the victim to poison themselves when they use the tampered band-aids? The powder will be absorbed into the tissue through the cut.

Tungsten powder added to normal bullets could ensure the kill, albeit with too much delay to have any tactical effect. But at least you know you're taking them down with you.

[S510]

If you could get it in a really fine powder you could put it in a small sandwich bag and put it into the cone of fireworks and use them in an attack on special occasions to avoid suspicion and set them off. Or you could use just the right size charge in a firework/rocket to make it airborne. Pretty low-tech. The only complications would be making it into a fine enough powder, It could also be difficult making it a fine powder without causing harm to the "assembler", but I suppose precautions could be taken to ensure their safety. Heh, sorry. Just throwing out ideas. What does everyone think?
Sorry if it doesn’t make sense, need sleep.

[NoltaiR]

Thats the gayest thing I have ever heard..

[Chris The Great]

A very small explosive charge, such as a sheet of det-flex, is coated with a dusting of tungsten-alloy powder, and placed somewhere where it will be in close proximity to the victims body.

Upon detonation, thousands of particles are embedded under the skin, in such a manner that the surgeons will never be able to remove all of them. And the particles that remain behind are foci for cancer formation.

I had a very similar idea last night. It was using the tungsten doped explosives with the highly lethal blast effect thoug, rather than dusting an explosive with tungsten. In this case, the blast effect will likely kill the target or at least horribly main them if it's only a small explosive charge. If they do survive, the tungsten powder which is embedded all throughout their body gives them innumerous tumours which finish the job.

Sounds like the perfect explosive kill weapon.

[S510]

Thats the gayest thing I have ever heard..

I agree:), But if you could actually find away to powder it then it could be used. Crude as it is. I'm just throwing out options. I mean nbk came up with the DU dust or something and when I heard Tungsten was a probobal carcinogen I just thought of a simple way to get it airborne without people noticing. I mean it is easier to obtain than DU. Nbk said he could get it.

[nbk2000]

Don't try comparing yourself to me. :rolleyes:

DU dust is a radioactive alpha-particle emitter that's KNOWN as a highly potent carcinogen when inhaled. W is not.

Also, there's (as yet) no evidence that inhalation is a route for cancer formation, like subcutaneous embedding is.

[S510]

Don't try comparing yourself to me. :rolleyes:

DU dust is a radioactive alpha-particle emitter that's KNOWN as a highly potent carcinogen when inhaled. W is not.

Also, there's (as yet) no evidence that inhalation is a route for cancer formation, like subcutaneous embedding is.
Ahh, I thought that it was a route. I do apologies. I also didn't mean for my post to come of as me comparing myself to you, again apologies. I was just saying about the part you said about DU dust, it got me thinking that since you could obtain Tungsten (probably) easier than DU.

[Zach730]

This may be in fact the "perfect" poison so to speak. All you really would have to do is prick them with a needle containing tungsten-alloy powder on the tip in the back when they're not looking and act sorry for poking them with something like pen as an excuse.

This way you can kill, or like NBK said leave then feeble and bankrupt, your enemies and random immigrants without getting caught.

I mean could they(meaning the corrupted government) figure out it was murder?

[NoltaiR]

I must say, seeing someone trying to dodge the BFL section is quite amusing. There is really no need for apologies. Just do searches on the topic before you post. That way you avoid posting something that has already been said, or posting something that will seem absurd to the rest of us.

On another note.. I have been waiting for NBK to post another one of this riddles... maybe another will come soon.. ;)

[S510]

Ok.:). Back on topic.

All you really would have to do is prick them with a needle containing tungsten-alloy powder on the tip in the back when they're not looking and act sorry for poking them with something like pen as an excuse.
Reminds me of Georgi Markov:). I guess the case is too well known to be used against a person though. Even in his last few hours he was complaining about his leg and about how a man "jabbed" him. I guess the time period for the Tungsten to take affect might actually make it work.

[akinrog]

Don't get me wrong, but AFAI remember, NBK told synergetic effect of tungsten alloys do the cancer thing. If that's the case, how tungsten powder shall do the job, if it's only tungsten?

And just another idea came up to my mind: Chromium is also one of the worst known tumoregenic, mutagenic substance. Maybe it's worth to try an alloy of tungsten+ nickel+ cobalt+ chromium. There was even an article which state chromium based porcelain colorings poses a cancer threat to human health when porcelain's glazing is eroded away due to use.

And I suspect tungsten serves as a carrier rather than as the main culprit since it's quite inert (although it oxidizes in the air, it's quite resistant to even mineral acids) and most probably it prevents the body from metobolizing and eliminating the particles. Regards

[NoltaiR]

Well that was the point I was trying to get across. There are so many other heavy metals who have the same ill-effects on the human body.. so I couldn't quite figure out the sudden interest in tungsten.

And in the REALLY heavy metals, you start having elements with radioactive effects that would be far more dangerous.

I don't think having a powder spray would really do anything. It would have to be at least pellet sized to make an entry into the skin...

[teshilo]

Well that was the point I was trying to get across. There are so many other heavy metals who have the same ill-effects on the human body.. so I couldn't quite figure out the sudden interest in tungsten.

And in the REALLY heavy metals, you start having elements with radioactive effects that would be far more dangerous.


Yes, powdered Berillium described in industrial toxicolocy as creating berriliose .Used a small quanity flash powder for pulverisation reduced weight and risk detection .This only joke in mail small bang :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[nbk2000]

Even dust sized particles can penetrate the skin if they're driven to Mach 2 by an explosion.

And remember, for the longest time, lead and asbestos were thought safe too.

[xyz]

Does anyone know whether the commercially available W powder is pure or has nickel and cobalt alloyed with it?

I'm assuming alloyed as I imagine pure W would be rather annoying to powder.

[nbk2000]

Cobalt doesn't seem to be a normal constituant of the commercial powder.

Iron and nickel seem to be the most common. Cobalt is usually less than 0.5% (max) of the remainder.

[xyz]

I've been looking around and noticed this:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2-BOXES-OF-ZIMMER-WIRE-SUTURES-NR_W0QQitemZ7623794620QQcategoryZ31469QQssPageName ZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Medical suturing wire composed of a nickel/cobalt/chromium/tungsten alloy (doesn't give proportions though). Nothing is mentioned about any kind of coating on it.

I assume that either it doesn't cause cancers due to a different alloy composition (maybe only trace amounts of nickel or cobalt, or possibly the chromium makes it safe) or because it will only be in the person for a week or two before being removed.

Goes to show that causing cancer isn't as simple as putting a tungsten alloy under the skin though, albeit for only a short time. If I had the time I'd buy some and implant small pieces of it into some rats and see what happened. I don't have the time to look after rats though, let alone for 4-5 months. Maybe someone else here is in a better position to conduct such an experiment?

On a different note, how hard would it be to manufacture a tungsten alloy in the ratios used in the study? I'm assuming very difficult due to the crazy melting point of the stuff, and even if you did get some alloyed, grinding it into 30mg fragments would presumably be a little challenging. Maybe I'm overlooking something here, but it doesn't seem feasible to the average (or above-average for that matter) E&W experimenter.

EDIT: Yes, the nickel would mean that the melting point of the alloy was lower if it acts as a binder for the W, but then I think it might not perform like the alloy used in the study (i.e. not being a true alloy, due to the intimacy of its composition being limited by the size of the W powder particles).

[nbk2000]

I believe that the fragments are sintered powder alloys, not melted together alloys. Meaning that they're porous, at the cellular scale.

These fragments are preformed for use in weapons by a highly competent armaments company, Aerojet. I'm assuming that they knew what they were doing when they used this particular alloy, and it's later effects. If not, then it's just a happy coincidence for them, eh? ;)

[FUTI]

So far only confirmed carcinogenic Cr compound are powdered sodium-chromate or dichromate AFAIR.

Ni and Cr can cause alergic reactions in certain person ( some people in my family have that problem and can't have any bracelets, earings, watches etc. that aren't made of (or electroplated with) noble metals as gold or silver).

NBK you said yourself that for skin penetration powder need extreme speed, but that shortens the radius of effect. I would still count on inhalation as better way for intoxication. Good maybe for silent kill as mentioned before but you would need to use it without explosive to achieve that. Maybe your aerosol spreading electronic device posted few weeks ago?

If anyone has access to medical journal please look for professional illness of workers in lightbulb manufacture if there is a grain of truth in this then I expect to find a bits of data there to confirm the the story NBK find out.

[xyz]

I thought that they might be porous, as 27.5mg seemed rather too light for a 1x2mm piece of W alloy.

[charger]

The metal described in the PDF sounds very similar to an alloy made close to me, called Stellite. I found the MSDS on the metal http://www.armstrongblue.com/Publications/msds__stellite_tips.htm is describes the carcinogenicity product.

[nbk2000]

~28mg for a 1x2mm fragment is about 70% of the maximum density for W.

Since it's (likely) porous, I'd imagine that helps with trapping cells within it, extending contact time with the metal and providing a place for the cancer to form.

[akinrog]

So far only confirmed carcinogenic Cr compound are powdered sodium-chromate or dichromate AFAIR.


According to the following link from hazard.com chromium metal is tumorigenic, mutagenic.

http://www2.siri.org/msds/tox/f/q42/q23.html

In the tumorigenic data section, it's claimed that 2160 microgram/kg/6 W dose administered intravenously to rats, causes gastrointestinal tumors, lymphoma.

But what I did not clearly distinguish is whether this is chromium metal or chromium compound.

However, when one enters chromium keyword on search page, results contains a few links and amongst these links both chromium and chromium metal points to same link. So I assume, the above link is for chromium metal. HTH.

[FUTI]

Thanks akinrog this is interesting. The info on the page is probably about metal as it state that it is implant in the method of administration section. Salts could be applied by syringe so there wouldn't be rational to apply it this way. Only work that page is referenced it for that kind of activity is little old and I don't know would those results stood current standards for publication. I can't read those papers as I don't have them available but it would mean a lot of difference if they implanted piece of chromium plate or steel plate that it was electroplated as this process involve usage of chromate salt. I always ask myself could organism convert chromium metal or lower valence salt to higher oxidation state?

[Kingtaling]

I picked up on this with my question about tungsten and flash powder using the search feature (go me)

In case you dont know already, you can buy 99.9% pure tungsten rather cheap from welding supply shops. my job puts me in contact with it nearly every other day, along with the dust from grinding it down (to point it)

more so, Some of the other tungsten alloys I use are thoriated, lanthanated, and ceriated. On the package it even says thoriated tungsten (2%) is considered somewhat radioactive!

For the record though, people who have been exposed to tungsten alloy and it's mild counterparts for several years (my father for instance, over 20 years... a Co-worker, over 40 years of welding with tungsten and dust witout a dust mask or protection) are still alive and walking and cancer free.

There has to be some other connection?

[Jacks Complete]

It is almost certainly down to the porous nature of the pellet, which gives a massively higher surface area, and hence far higher dose. I suspect NBK is right, and it is deliberate, but has been kept quiet. I'm sure we will see what happens, and I wonder if this story might get picked up by others beyond here?

[akinrog]

... a Co-worker, over 40 years of welding with tungsten and dust witout a dust mask or protection) are still alive and walking and cancer free.

There has to be some other connection?

NBK said synergetic effect (of tungsten alloy, which is claimed to contain cobalt, nickel, etc.) is responsible for the cancer, so having almost pure tungsten powder shall not do the job, I believe. Regards

[Jacks Complete]

Of course, we all know people who have smoked for 40 years and died of a car crash. Welders, I seem to recall, do get cancer more often than most.

http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309076293?OpenDocument and http://www.asph.org/fridayletter/article_view.cfm?fl_index=1407&fle_index=3535 both seem to blame Arsenic in low concentrations as a major cause of cancer. It seems a likely impurity for a low grade of Tungsten powder. Cobalt is also a nasty substance, and Nickel triggers allergic reactions in a large percentage of the population after prolonged skin contact. Even without the Tungsten part, you would likely still be in trouble if the metal mix wasn't removed. If they use a little oil when pressing the powder, that, too, would be likely to cause an immune reaction, as mineral oils have also been shown to cause cancer at a higher rate - this is why you shouldn't keep that oily rag in your jeans/overalls pocket for checking the dipstick and shining the chrome!

[akinrog]

If they use a little oil when pressing the powder, that, too, would be likely to cause an immune reaction, as mineral oils have also been shown to cause cancer at a higher rate - this is why you shouldn't keep that oily rag in your jeans/overalls pocket for checking the dipstick and shining the chrome!

I remember reading a document (a user manual for agricultural tractors) which states leaks of high pressure hydraulic fluids may penetrate into skin if the leaks are checked by hands causing severe injury (i.e. gangrene). :eek:

And the document says lubricants (especially brake fluid) can cause cancer. Regards

[teshilo]

Hmm ,where obtain W? I know what big mercury lamp contain piece of W...

[nbk2000]

Non-lead fishing weights are made from tungsten powder in polymeric binder.

[Kingtaling]

I've gotten so much tranny fluid/hydraulic fluid/gasoline/oil/etc... on me over the last 5 years training for my ASE its unreal. I always knew they were carcenogenic though- it just sucks to hear someone say it.

I get to cut back on the welding real soon, I guess I need to hire a guy to do the cancer causing parts of my job for me, lol.

[nbk2000]

I found the patent issued to Aerojet for fabrication of sintered heavy-metal alloy for use in weapons.

5760378


he compacts are formed of tungsten heavy alloy. As used herein the term "tungsten heavy alloy" refers to a sintered tungsten powder alloy with a matrix metal of nickel, copper, cobalt and/or iron and mixtures thereof, the tungsten content being at least 85 wt % and density being at least 16.0 gm/cm3.

As previously explained, the larger the size of the compact the more critical the tungsten to matrix metal ratio. The tungsten heavy alloy includes at least about 85 wt % tungsten, and preferably between about 85-97 wt % tungsten. The matrix metal includes no more than about 15 wt % of nickel, copper, and/or iron and mixtures thereof, and preferably, between about 3-15 wt % of nickel, copper, and/or iron and mixtures thereof.

The limit of about 85 wt % tungsten and 15 wt % matrix metal is established based upon the ability of the tungsten skeleton to structurally support the compact in the liquid phase during liquid phase sintering.

[Jacks Complete]

Kingtailing, it is nasty stuff, but as long as you wash well, you should be fine.

It is getting this shit into cuts that is the big problem. I had a cut that had some oil in it, is simply wouldn't heal properly until I realised, and then I had to re-open it (small hole with a needle) and get the tiny bit of black oil out, and it was healed the next day!

[elliot]

Hi i was just reading through this article and, i know it sounds horrible but, in a war, or any other place that these shrapnel shells are used, dont you want to kill as many people as possible and as efficiently as possible so wouldn't the cancer be concidered a 'good' side effect to the army using it?