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megalomania
May 30th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Wired magazine has an article this month, the June 2006 issue, about the crackdown on amateur science experimentation. I think it is well worth the read because it echoes many of the same sentiments I have been saying all along. Rogue Science is rapidly becoming the last refuge in an increasingly hostile environment towards science and education.

The original article can be found at Wired here: http://wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html

Don't Try This at Home
Garage chemistry used to be a rite of passage for geeky kids. But in their search for terrorist cells and meth labs, authorities are making a federal case out of DIY science.
By Steve Silberman

The first startling thing Joy White saw out of her bedroom window was a man running toward her door with an M16. White’s husband, a physicist named Bob Lazar, was already outside, awakened by their barking dogs. Suddenly police officers and men in camouflage swarmed up the path, hoisting a battering ram. “Come out with your hands up immediately, Miss White!” one of them yelled through a megaphone, while another handcuffed the physicist in his underwear. Recalling that June morning in 2003, Lazar says, “If they were expecting to find Osama bin Laden, they brought along enough guys.”

The target of this operation, which involved more than two dozen police officers and federal agents, was not an international terrorist ring but the couple’s home business, United Nuclear Scientific Supplies, a mail-order outfit that serves amateur scientists, students, teachers, and law enforcement professionals. From the outside, company headquarters – at the end of a dirt road high in the Sandia Mountains east of Albuquerque – looks like any other ranch house in New Mexico, with three dogs, a barbecue, and an SUV in the driveway. But not every suburban household boasts its own particle accelerator. A stroll through the backyard reveals what looks like a giant Van de Graaff generator with a pipe spiraling out of it, marked with CAUTION: RADIATION signs. A sticker on the SUV reads POWERED BY HYDROGEN, while another sign by the front gate warns, TRESPASSERS WILL BE USED FOR SCIENCE EXPERIMENTS.

Science experiments are United Nuclear’s business. The chemicals available on the company’s Web site range from ammonium dichromate (the main ingredient in the classic science-fair volcano) to zinc oxide powder (which absorbs UV light). Lazar and White also sell elements like sodium and mercury, radioactive minerals, and geeky curiosities like aerogel, an ultralightweight foam developed by NASA to capture comet dust. The Department of Homeland Security buys the company’s powerful infrared flashlights by the case; the Mythbusters guys on the Discovery Channel recently picked up 10 superstrong neodymium magnets. (These come with the sobering caveat: “Beware – you must think ahead when moving these magnets … Loose metallic objects and other magnets may become airborne and fly considerable distances.”) Fire departments in Nevada and California send for United Nuclear’s Geiger counters and uranium ore to train hazmat crews.

A former employee of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, the 47-year-old Lazar radiates a boyish enthusiasm for science and gadgets. White, 50, is a trim licensed aesthetician who does herbal facials for local housewives while helping her husband run the company. When the officers determined that Lazar and White posed no physical threat, they freed the couple from their handcuffs and produced a search warrant. United Nuclear’s computers and business records were carted off in a van.

The search was initiated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, a federal agency best known for instigating recalls of faulty cribs and fire-prone space heaters. The CPSC’s concern with United Nuclear was not the uranium, the magnets, or the backyard accelerator. It was the chemicals – specifically sulfur, potassium perchlorate, and powdered aluminum, all of which can be used to make illegal fireworks. The agency suspected that Lazar and White were selling what amounted to kits for making M-80s, cherry bombs, and other prohibited items; such kits are banned by the CPSC under the Federal Hazardous Substances Act.

“We are not just a recall agency,” explains CPSC spokesperson Scott Wolfson. “We have turned our attention to the chemical components used in the manu-facture of illegal fireworks, which can cause amputations and death.” A 2004 study by the agency found that 2 percent of fireworks-related injuries that year were caused by homemade or altered fireworks; the majority involved the mishandling of commercial firecrackers, bottle rockets, and sparklers. Nonetheless, Wolfson says, “we’ve fostered a very close relationship with the Justice Department and we’re out there on the Internet looking to see who is promoting these core chemicals. Fireworks is one area where we’re putting people in prison.”

In the past several years, the CPSC has gone after a variety of online vendors, demanding the companies require customers to prove they have a license to manufacture explosives before they can purchase any chemical associated with making them. Many of these compounds, however, are also highly useful for conducting science experiments. Sulfur, for example, is an ingredient in hydrogen sulfide, an important tool for chemical analysis. Potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate are widely used in labs as oxidizers.

The CPSC’s war on illegal fireworks is one of several forces producing a chilling effect on amateur research in chemistry. National security issues and laws aimed at thwarting the production of crystal meth are threatening to put an end to home laboratories. In schools, rising liability concerns are making teachers wary of allowing students to perform their own experiments. Some educators even speculate that a lack of chem lab experience is contributing to the declining interest in science careers among young people.
United Nuclear got its computers back a few days after they were hauled away, and three years passed before Lazar and White heard from the authorities again. This spring, the couple was charged with violating the Federal Hazardous Substances Act and shipping restricted chemicals across state lines. If convicted, Lazar and White each face a maximum penalty of 270 days in prison and a $15,000 fine.

The lure of do-it-yourself chemistry has always been the most potent recruiting tool science has to offer. Many kids attracted by the promise of filling the garage with clouds of ammonium sulfide – the proverbial stink bomb – went on to brilliant careers in mathematics, biology, programming, and medicine.

Intel cofounder Gordon Moore set off his first boom in Silicon Valley two decades before pioneering the design of the integrated circuit. One afternoon in 1940, near the spot where Interstate 280 intersects Sand Hill Road today, the future father of the semiconductor industry knelt beside a cache of homemade dynamite and lit the fuse. He was 11 years old.
Moore’s pyrotechnic adventures grew out of his experiments with a neighbor’s chemistry set. He turned a shed beside the family house into a lab, stocking it with chemicals mail-ordered from San Francisco and filling an old dresser with beakers and funnels. Now retired, the 77-year-old Moore looks back on his days and nights in the shed as a time when he learned to think and work like a scientist. “The things I made, like nitroglycerin, took a fair amount of lab technique,” he recalls. “I specialized in explosives because they were fun, and I liked doing things that got results in a hurry.”

Many of Moore’s illustrious peers also first got interested in science by performing experiments at home. After reading a book called The Boy Scientist at age 10, Vint Cerf – who became one of the architects of the Internet – spent months blowing up thermite volcanoes and launching backyard rockets. Growing up in Colorado, David Packard – the late cofounder of Hewlett-Packard – concocted new recipes for gunpowder. The neurologist Oliver Sacks writes about his adolescent love affair with “stinks and bangs” in Uncle Tungsten: Memories of a Chemical Boyhood. “There’s no question that stinks and bangs and crystals and colors are what drew kids – particularly boys – to science,” says Roald Hoffmann of Cornell University, who won the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1981. “Now the potential for stinks and bangs has been legislated out.”

Popular Science columnist Theodore Gray, who is one of United Nuclear’s regular customers, uses potassium perchlorate to demonstrate the abundance of energy stored in sugar and fat. He chops up Snickers bars, sprinkles in the snowy crystals, and ignites the mixture, which bursts into a tower of flame – the same rapid exothermic reaction that propels model rockets skyward. “Why is it that I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy boxes of bullets and black powder, but I can’t buy potassium perchlorate to do science because it can also be used to make explosives?” he asks. “How many people are injured each year doing extreme sports or playing high school football? But mention mixing up chemicals in your home lab, and people have a much lower index of acceptable risk.”

The push to restrict access to chemicals by those who have no academic or scientific credentials gained momentum in the mid-’90s following the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. In the years since 9/11, the Defense Department, FBI, and other government agencies have strategized ways of tracking even small purchases of potentially dangerous chemicals. “The fact that there are amateurs and retired professors out there who need access to these chemicals is a valid problem,” acknowledges Rice University chemistry professor James Tour, who consulted with the Pentagon and the Justice Department, “but there aren’t many of those guys weighed against the possible dangers.”

A provision in the 2002 Homeland Security Act mandated background checks and licensing requirements for model-rocket enthusiasts on the grounds that ammonium perchlorate fuel is an explosive; the Justice Department argued that terrorists could deploy model rockets to shoot down commercial airliners. A bill pending in both houses of Congress would empower the Department of Homeland Security to regulate sales of ammonium nitrate, a common fertilizer that Timothy McVeigh used to make the Oklahoma City bomb. “We finally have bipartisan support and encouragement from the chemical industry on this, which is important, because we’ve seen what can happen when these materials fall into the wrong hands,” says US representative Curt Weldon (R-Pennsylvania), who is sponsoring the House bill. “As we move forward, we’re going to be taking a very close look at other chemicals that should be regulated.”

In the meantime, more than 30 states have passed laws to restrict sales of chemicals and lab equipment associated with meth production, which has resulted in a decline in domestic meth labs, but makes things daunting for an amateur chemist shopping for supplies. It is illegal in Texas, for example, to buy such basic labware as Erlenmeyer flasks or three-necked beakers without first registering with the state’s Department of Public Safety to declare that they will not be used to make drugs. Among the chemicals the Portland, Oregon, police department lists online as “commonly associated with meth labs” are such scientifically useful compounds as liquid iodine, isopropyl alcohol, sulfuric acid, and hydrogen peroxide, along with chemistry glassware and pH strips. Similar lists appear on hundreds of Web sites.

“To criminalize the necessary materials of discovery is one of the worst things you can do in a free society,” says Shawn Carlson, a 1999 MacArthur fellow and founder of the Society for Amateur Scientists. “The Mr. Coffee machine that every Texas legislator has near his desk has three violations of the law built into it: a filter funnel, a Pyrex beaker, and a heating element. The laws against meth should be the deterrent to making it – not criminalizing activities that train young people to appreciate science.”

The increasingly strict regulatory climate has driven a wedge of paranoia between young chemists and their potential mentors. “I don’t tell anyone about what I do at home,” writes one anonymous high schooler on Sciencemadness.org, an online forum for amateur scientists. “A lot of ignorant people at my school will just spread rumors about me … The teacher will hear about them and I will get into legal trouble … I have so much glassware at my house, any excuse will not cut it. So I keep my mouth shut.”

Ironically, a shadow of suspicion is being cast over home chemistry at a time when the contributions of amateurs to the progress of science are highly regarded. In recent years, citizen scientists have discovered comets and supernovas and invented tools for gauging Earth’s magnetic field.

Peer-reviewed journals like Nature now welcome papers coauthored by auto-didacts like Forrest Mims III, who studies solar storms and atmospheric conditions at his home observatory in Texas. Personal computers, digital cameras, and other consumer electronic devices are putting more accurate means of recording and measuring phenomena into the hands of home tinkerers than were available in high-end labs just a few years ago. The Internet is the ultimate enabling technology, allowing amateurs to collaborate with their counterparts at NASA and other organizations.

Porting the hacker ethic to the nonvirtual world, magazines like Make and blogs like Boing Boing are making it cool for geeks to get their hands dirty again, offering how-tos on everything from building your own telescope to assembling an electronic insect army. DIY robotics-fests like Dorkbot (“people doing strange things with electricity,” according to the Web site) are taking off from Boston to Bangalore.

But the hands-on revival is leaving home chemists behind. While surplus lab equipment is available on eBay, chemicals are subject to the site’s filtering software, which tracks or blocks the sale of items tagged as hazardous by the US Postal Service, the Drug Enforcement Administration, and the Environmental Protection Agency. “There are very few commercial supply houses willing to sell chemicals to amateurs anymore because of this fear that we’re all criminals and terrorists,” Carlson says. “Ordinary folks no longer have access to the things they need to make real discoveries in chemistry.”

The heyday of home experimentation in the US coincided with the rise of the Porter Chemical Company, makers of the legendary Chemcraft labs-in-a-box, which contained enough bottles and beakers to perform more than 800 experiments. At the height of its popularity in the 1950s, Porter awarded college scholarships, mined its own chemicals, and was the biggest user of test tubes in the US. The company produced more than a million chemistry sets before going out of business in the 1980s amid increasing liability concerns.

One kid whose interest in science was sparked by the gift of a chemistry set was Don Herbert, who grew up to host a popular TV show in the 1950s called Watch Mr. Wizard. With his eye-popping demonstrations and low-key midwestern manner, Mr. Wizard gave generations of future scientists and teachers the confidence to perform experiments at home. In 1999, Restoration Hardware founder Stephen Gordon teamed up with Renee Whitney, general manager of a toy company called Wild Goose, to try to re-create the chemistry set Herbert marketed almost 50 years ago. “Don was so sweet,” Whitney recalls. “He invited us to his home to have dinner with him and his wife. Then he pulled his old chemistry set out of the garage. It was amazing – a real metal cabinet, like a little closet, filled with dozens of light-resistant bottles.”

Gordon and Whitney soon learned that few of the items in Mr. Wizard’s cabinet could be included in the product. “Unfortunately, we found that more than half the chemicals were illegal to sell to children because they’re considered dangerous,” Whitney explains. By the time the Mr. Wizard Science Set appeared in stores, it came with balloons, clay, Super Balls, and just five chemicals, including laundry starch, which was tagged with an ominous warning: HANDLE CAREFULLY. NOT EXPECTED TO BE A HEALTH HAZARD.
“It wasn’t really something you could use to teach kids about chemistry,” acknowledges Thomas Nikosey, head of Mr. Wizard Studios, which handles licensing for the 88-year-old Herbert.

Kits that train kids how to do real chemistry have yielded to innocuous science-flavored toys. At the Web site Discover This, one typical product promises lessons in making “rock candy, superbubbles, and molding clay … without blowing up the house.”

One of the few companies still selling chemistry sets worthy of the name is a German-American venture called Thames & Kosmos, run by former Adobe software engineer Ted McGuire. The company’s top-of-the-line kit, the C3000, is equipped with a full complement of test tubes, beakers, pipettes, litmus paper, and more than two dozen useful compounds. But even the C3000, which retails for $200, comes with a shopping list of chemicals that must be purchased elsewhere to perform certain experiments. “A lot of retailers are scared to carry a real chemistry set now because of liability concerns,” McGuire explains. “The stuff under your kitchen sink is far more dangerous than the things in our kits, but put the word chemistry on something and people become terrified.”

The chemophobia that’s put a damper on home science has also invaded America’s classrooms, where hands-on labs are being replaced by liability-proof teacher demonstrations with the explicit message Don’t try this at home. A guide for teachers of grades 7 through 12 issued by the American Chemical Society in 2001 makes the prospect of an hour in the lab seem fraught with peril: “Every chemical, without exception, is hazardous. Did you know that oxygen is poisonous if inhaled at a concentration a bit greater than its natural concentration in the air?” More than half of the suggested experiments in a multimedia package for schools called “You Be the Chemist,” created in 2004 by the Chemical Educational Foundation, are to be performed by the teacher alone, leaving students to blow up balloons (with safety goggles in place) or answer questions like “How many pretzels can you eat in a minute?”

“A lot of schools don’t have chemistry labs anymore,” explains CEF educational coordinator Laurel Brent. “We want to give kids lessons that tie in to their real-world experiences without having them deal with a lot of strange chemicals in bottles that have big long names.”

Many students are ill at ease when faced with actual compounds and lab equipment for the first time at school. A study of “chemistry anxiety” in the Journal of Chemical Education concluded in 2000 that “the presence of this anxiety in our students could be a contributing factor in the overall poor performance of high school students in science.” (Commonly reported fears included “lighting the Bunsen burner,” “fire,” and “getting chemicals on skin.”) Restrictions on hands-on chemical experience is “a problem that has been building for 10 or 15 years, driven by liability and safety concerns,” says John Moore, editor in chief of the JCE.

“The liability issues are a cop-out,” says Bassam Shakhashiri, the author of a four-volume guide to classroom chemistry who has taught for 36 years at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Kids are being robbed of the joy of discovering things for themselves.” Compared with students in previous generations, he says, undergraduates raised on hands-off science seem passive: “They want someone to do things for them. Even those who become chem majors and grad students are not as versatile in the lab, because their experiences in middle school and high school were so limited. This is a terrible shame. By working with real substances, you learn how to ask the right questions about the physical world, which is half the battle in science.”
Paradoxically, at a time when young people are particularly excited about technology, their enthusiasm for learning about the science behind it is waning. Thirty years ago, the US ranked third in the world in the number of science and engineering degrees awarded in the 18-to-24 age group. Now the country ranks 17th, according to the National Science Board. A 2004 report called Trends in International Mathematics and Science Education Study found that while fourth graders in the US rank sixth in basic science scores when measured against their peers worldwide, by the time they’re in eighth grade, they’ve slipped to ninth place. Prompted by concern that America is falling behind, President Bush proposed a $380 million “competitiveness initiative” this year that promises to train 70,000 new teachers of Advanced Placement science and math. By the time students have the opportunity to enroll in an AP course, however, many have already absorbed the message that science is best left to trained professionals.

“You have to capture kids’ imaginations very young or you lose them forever,” says Steve Spangler, a former protégé of Mr. Wizard who is now a science correspondent for the NBC affiliate in Denver. “But that’s hard when you have teachers required to check out vinegar and baking soda from the front office because something bad might happen in class. Slowly but surely the teaching tools are being taken away, so schools end up saying, ‘Let’s get a college professor to do this demonstration, and kids can watch the streaming video.’”
To Bill Nye, the “Science Guy” who hosted an Emmy award-winning series on PBS in the 1990s, unreasonable fears about chemicals and home experimentation reflect a distrust of scientific expertise taking hold in society at large. “People who want to make meth will find ways to do it that don’t require an Erlenmeyer flask. But raising a generation of people who are technically incompetent is a recipe for disaster.”

To ensure that the tradition of home chemistry survives, self-proclaimed “mad scientists” are creating a research underground on Web sites like Sciencemadness, Readily Available Chemicals, and the International Order of Nitrogen. There, in comfortable anonymity, seasoned experimenters, novices, and connoisseurs of banned molecules share tips on finding alternative sources for chemicals and labware.

One key to working as a DIY chemist, says Matthew Ernst, the 25-year-old host of Sciencemadness, is realizing how many useful chemicals are still available as household products or items designed for specialized niches. Silver nitrate, for example, can be found at potters’ supply stores, where it lends raku glazes an uncanny luster. “Amateur chemists become compulsive label readers,” Ernst says. “Many compounds are available if the chemist is willing to split his shopping between the paint store, hardware store, ceramics supplier, gardening center, welding supplier, feed store, and metal recycler.”
Out-of-print texts like Julius B. Cohen’s 1910 Practical Organic Chemistry are being made available again in PDF form on file-sharing networks and the Internet Archive. To route around stigmatized chemical pathways, home experimenters are reviving 19th-century methods of synthesizing reagents from scratch. Shawn Carlson of the Society for Amateur Scientists calls this “embracing Grandpa’s chemistry.”

Carlson’s group acts as a virtual co-op for its nearly 2,000 members by facilitating small purchases of legal chemicals and equipment. The group is also launching an ambitious national program called Labrats to provide mentoring to the next generation of researchers by teaming students with working scientists.

The father of three young children, Carlson understands parental concerns about safety. But he believes that the exhilaration of risk has always been a powerful factor in engaging kids’ interest in science, and should be actively encouraged – while minimizing the physical hazards. “We can get rid of most of the actual dangers, but it’s important that we preserve the perception of danger in science,” he says. “When I do experiments with my own kids, I’m more than happy to let them believe that if they’re not careful, something could happen to them. It adds that extra element of ‘my fate is in my hands – but if I do this right, everything will be fine.’”

In March, Bob Lazar and Joy White were building a new two-story home for United Nuclear in a clearing behind their house, hiring three assistants, and weathering a nerve-wracking shortage of aerogel after Boing Boing posted a link. Then news of the Justice Department’s charges against them arrived, and they called their lawyer to begin planning their defense.

“Kids read about the great scientists and their discoveries throughout history, and marvel that people once did these things,” Lazar says. “But they marvel a little too much. Taking chemicals and lab equipment away from kids who love science is like taking crayons and paints away from a kid who may grow up to be an artist.”

ShadowMyGeekSpace
May 30th, 2006, 09:52 PM
Won't someone please think of the children?!

Jacks Complete
May 31st, 2006, 05:15 PM
Sadly, that is the problem.

The Nazi's probably sold the extemination of the Jews far more easily by saying, "We must stop the Jewish conspiracy! Their children are smarter than ours, so we must kill them all! For our children!"

There is nothing I have found yet, that cannot be successfully sold by adding "for the children!" on the end in a creative way.

"I'm sorry, little Timmy has to go to the electric chair for being disruptive in class, I mean, thinking! Like that! In a school! It's for the good of the children." Not so good for Timmy, though, is it?

tmp
May 31st, 2006, 10:20 PM
the Justice Department argued that terrorists could deploy model rockets to shoot down commercial airliners

What a crock of SHIT ! A 'model' rocket ? Now, how are the terrorists supposed to
guide an Estes rocket ? Even the BATFE conceded in their own tests that this was
not feasible. However, they claimed that terrorists could use them to disperse
chemical or biological weapons.

The owner of Pyrotek spent some time in Federal prison for contempt of court
because he violated a plea bargain when he started a new pyrotechnic supply
company. He lacked the limitless tax money that the CPSC has to fight these
bastards and was forced to accept the plea bargain.

It's the same as with guns. The laws are passed by a bunch of assholes trying to
justify their jobs and gain further control over people. The murderous activities of
the FBI and BATFE are well known - Ruby Ridge and Waco are perfect examples.
It's been said that Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City
because of those tragic incidents and the assault weapon ban passed by that
dickhead, Bill Clinton. I hope we never have another McVeigh-style attack but
you can't know when someone might go over the edge because of politicians.

klassasin
June 1st, 2006, 10:24 AM
Slashdot post about the Wired article: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/31/222229&from=rss

It sounds like most of the people on slashdot agree with us.

Jacks Complete
June 7th, 2006, 03:03 PM
http://www.teralab.co.uk/Glass_Blowing/Glass_Blowing_Menu.htm

Learn how to turn your beer bottles into bongs before they outlaw beer, too! (or something!)

Pb1
June 21st, 2006, 05:33 PM
Rogue Science is rapidly becoming the last refuge in an increasingly hostile environment towards science and education.

To be fair, there are a few others. I know I will get flamed for mentioning these, but sciencemadness.org and even scienceforums.net still carry the torch.

I agree that that this country, maybe even this whole world, is going nuts. I’m sure we’ve all heard about all the bullshit today: outlawing jam jars in TX, teachers being reduced to using baking soda and vinegar (which they have to sign out) in class demos, etc.

My question is: Why is this happening? What the hell went wrong with this country and sparked this massive backlash against science?

As far as I can tell this started after the 1950s and has only accelerated since 9/11. Maybe the drug culture of the ‘60s was the initial cause. Then 9/11 came along and scared the shit out of the sheeple…

What do you guys think?

[Throws open the floor to wild speculation.]

Diabolique
September 1st, 2006, 05:55 PM
Jack's Complete, remember Prohibition? It included beer and wine.

I wonder if these people realize just what is available at the local supermarket, drugstore and hardware store. Anyone can purchase the chemicals and equipment needed to make many of the energetic materials on this site, including a few of the more exotic ones. Glass containers for food are becoming hard to find - they are d-i-y chemistry sets! I wonder what they would do if they found out what could be done with a champaign bottle. Imagine France's finest in a plastic bottle.

The reason is control. Ignorant sheeple are easy to control. If you do not know how to ask questions, you accept the 'answers' you are given without question. Chemistry is a fast and ready source and means of resistance. We must know our place - sheeple are meant for shearing and mutton.

My 10 yo grand-niece is being brought up to question everything, and not accept blindly what she is told. She also does not accept the sheeple role teachers want her to follow. As she is maturing early, a nearly 13 yo bully grabbed her chest, so she used the martial arts her mother taught her to flatten him. The principal let the boy go - youthful high spirits - and called in my niece. My grand-niece should not have used violence to defend herself, but have gone to a teacher afterward. Be a nice little sheeple victim.

My niece, hearing the entire story, told my grand-niece she was right to defend herself, and would be severely punished only if she ever failed to do so. She then told the principal that she would slam him to the floor, walls and ceiling, before suing the school district for their next century's budget if her daughter were molested again. When he looked at me, I suggested a simple surgical procedure used on cattle ranches that may solve his problem of excess testosterone.

Not being a nice little sheeple brings punishment. My grand-niece has been told by her mother not to work on team efforts at school, but to do her own work. The teachers report her as not being a team player, and a disciplinary problem due to her independance. It also infuriates them that her work is better than any team, and that she is learning algebra and basic trig from me.

As for the article mega posted, she has learned that a very interesting chemistry set exists under the sink and in the bathroom. She not only knows how to make RDX, but how to use it in an explosively formed projectile munition - which thrilled her when she reallized she knew more about IED's in Iraq than CNN's 'experts'. She accepted she is not ready for more than theory after a demonstration of what conc. H2SO4 does to raw meat and sugar.

I wonder if my niece and I should worry about not bringing her daughter up properly.

anonymous411
September 1st, 2006, 09:18 PM
Do you have any alternatives to keeping her in this school system? From the sound of it, she'd be much better off being homeschooled or in a charter school--or anyplace else, really. You know it's only going to get worse as she gets older.

Frankly, I'm worried you're going to make school officials angry enough they'll sic the state on you and have you declared unfit to raise a child. Cut your losses and get her out of there while you still can!

Chris The Great
September 2nd, 2006, 12:31 AM
Wow, you guys sure know how to raise a child. Great job!

Can't wait to see her here in a few years lol :D

I don't think it will get that serious to get the state involved. They don't get the state involved for kids not even attending class, because it might hurt the children and other liberal BS.

fearthereaper
September 2nd, 2006, 01:20 AM
Are we heading to the Dark Ages again? I may need to find my candlesticks for lighting. I wondering why American children are doing so well in Math and Science, especially those in public schools. ;)

Diabolique
September 2nd, 2006, 01:56 AM
My niece moved out on her own, and her boyfriend died before they could marry. My sister & b-i-l were too restrictive, so I helped her out until she had her nurcing certificate. Now, she is taking care of me.

Home schooling is out. The authorities take over every aspect of life, and make it difficult to be certified. So we send her to school, and teach her at home.

I taught troops in the Army, many of whom couldn't pour a noxious liquid out of a boot with the instructions on the bottom of the sole. The trick is to get them involved, hands on. For example, teaching decontamination, I emphasized that you cannot mix supertropical bleach (STB) with Decontamination Solution 2 (DS2) by taking a teaspoonful of STB in a small metal cap, and adding a teaspoonful of DS2.

I had tried it in a warm basement office and it ignited in a couple of seconds. Outdoors, it was cold, I mixed the two, and ... nothing. So I told them that they spontaneously ignite when warm. Just then, I was standing next to a jet of flame nearly 1 meter high. We all jumped. It held their attention, and they learned.

It is the same with children. They like learning, if it is made interesting. It becomes like playtime, only they are learning something new. If you want to teach a child math and how to use and read maps and compasses, teach them to create a map of the back yard. Something as mental and non-physical as algebra can become facinating when they see how it can be applied to a physical activity that is interesting.

Her interest in explosives began with watching a fireworks display, and asking about how the colors and sparkles were made. What really caught her interest was my explaination of how placing the stars at particular points on and in the spherical bomb, they followed specific paths, and made hearts, circles and other forms in the air. Every part of life can become a chance for learning for a child. Everything is still new to them.

Public schools may be brainwashing the kids into mindless sheeple, but that does not mean we cannot teach the kids real knowledge, particularly how to think and learn on their own.

megalomania
September 2nd, 2006, 09:31 AM
Now there we go, someone practicing defiance of sheeple indoctrination. At the heart of this issue is fear of what the school can do. Well, what can they do? Detention, suspension, expulsion? Maybe for truants and violent thugs, but just because you don’t accept what they teach? Not likely.

We are so ingrained to always accept that what teacher says is best. Use the schools as the free resource they are, after all, all that is free should be exploited right? The schools get many things right, math is math. They may not like the idea of you learning something that will not be on the state mandated test, but they are powerless to do anything about that.

You can still homeschool a child, even one that attends a public school. You still have the evenings and all summer to undo any damage the public schools have wrought upon their tender minds. The best way is to instill in the young child a healthy mistrust of teacher, and any school administrators. Teach them that father knows best, and teacher is to be questioned. Many teachers will use their students to further their own political agendas. This works all too often because many parents don’t bother much with their kids. As long as the child doesn’t get into trouble or get noticed the school serves as daycare. Who cares what indoctrination they receive?

After 12 years of state mandated indoctrination do you wonder why everybody goes crazy at college and accepts all those new ideas? Too long under state suppression will make an intellectual revolutionary out of anyone…

How many books on explosives were there at your high school? Would that be a big fat zero? Before anyone starts to poo-poo colleges too, keep in mind my knowledge of explosives, and my website, and hence the entire Forum is brought to you courtesy of information gleaned from a university library near you :) Without this knowledge, which as far as I know is only available from university libraries, I’d be testing the melting points of plastics somewhere, and all of you would be discussing the finer points of soda bottle bombs on totse or bombshock.

anonymous411
September 2nd, 2006, 04:19 PM
I don't think it will get that serious to get the state involved. They don't get the state involved for kids not even attending class, because it might hurt the children and other liberal BS.

Yeah, well, if the wrong people got wind of the fact that a ten-year-old is making RDX, I think they'd go absolutely apeshit on the guy. A "menace to society" and "endangering the welfare of a child" and all that.

Even changing public schools would be a smart move at this point. If this loser of a principal starts to single them out for extra scrutiny, it can only get worse. I think it sounds like the kid will turn out great... as long as the adults keep making sure the school (and the state) stays out of the way.

Chris The Great
September 2nd, 2006, 04:52 PM
My highschool had some books on DIY rocketry. IIRC it may have mentioned making your own engines, though it certainly wasn't advanced. Mostly how to build the rocket and use a commercial engine to launch it. Some advanced math in one of them for trajectories. Nobody ever took the books though, probably because they were too busy trying to fit in and be cool (also known as defy athority by being a dumbass).

Sometimes you will find a teacher who is actually good, who actually wants you to learn and think on your own. I was very fortunate to have a few of these in my latter years of high school, and they did have an influence on my blossoming individuality although that really was kicked off mostly from internet sites like this one.

As for before those last couple years, many of my teachers thought I was too strange and one tried very hard for my parents to put me on Ritalin. Teachers are not to be trusted unless they have given a reason to be trusted. Finding ones that could be is hard, but there are some out there.

Cobalt.45
September 2nd, 2006, 04:56 PM
Where the problems really start is when the state becomes involved. It takes a lot to incite them- often at the peril of children who really do need intervention to protect them from actual harm. But when you've drawn their attention, things can go bad, quickly.

While dropping a dime on someone can get an investigation started, there's no quick or easy way to appease them once things are under way. All too often, children are placed into foster homes for little or no reason, all for their "protection".

Truth is, the ones who are being protected, are the agents of the state, lest they be held accountable should any harm befall their charges. It's a classic case of covering their asses. They most often err on the side of caution, whether or not it's justified.

This, from a system that has completely LOST children in their care (FL and GA, many others, I'm sure).

Keep a low profile. Be just as wary as if they were the BATF or FBI. They can and will make your life Hell.

Obviously, just my opinion. I'm betting, and rightfully so, that you're very proud them both.

nbk2000
September 3rd, 2006, 12:36 AM
And once in foster care, the kids become live-in fuck toys for the pedo's who often run such places. :rolleyes:

As for the kids who get 'lost' in the system, what about the standard anime plot of child assassins?

+++++++++

More related to the topic of this thread:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_frank_j__060829_bush_nixes_public_ac.htm


"What has been termed, "positively Orwellian", by PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch, is indeed frightening. It seems that the self-appointed "Decider", George W. Bush, has decided to "end public access to research materials" at EPA Regional libraries without Congressional consent. In an all out effort to impede research and public access, Bush has implemented a loosely covert operation to close down 26 technical libraries under the guise of a budgetary constraint move. Scientists are protesting, but at least 15 of the libraries will be closed by Sept. 30, 2006."

Diabolique
September 4th, 2006, 02:06 AM
My grand-niece does not make any RDX, she only knows how to make it, and many others. They do not need to use any 'endangering' male bovine digestive residue, my having taught explosives in the Army makes my teaching anyone how to make an explosive a major felony under the new laws. Some of my posts here, as well, may be felonies. The incident occured a couple of weeks before the end of the school year, so the summer may work to our advantage. Being retired, I have the time to show her interesting things. How often do both parrents have to work multiple jobs just to make ends meet?

If you listened to Bush's pitbull, Rumfeld, the other night, he was hinting that intellectual discussion of the Iraq war hinders their efforts there. Thanks to nbk's efforts, if 'intellectual' does not describe the majority of the people interested in this site, I do not know what does. We tend to think for ourselves, and not follow blindly. I have lost getting a prestigious position because I was termed to be an intellectual. They wanted someone that could be controlled, not the best candidate, which the screeners told me I was. Think about what happened to the intellectuals that didn't cave to the Nazi's. What do you think they will feel toward people who both think for themselves, and know E&W?

I hope I am wrong.

Cobalt.45
September 4th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Most intellectuals actually thrived under the nazi system. Otherwise, Germany would've been pounded into the ground with much less effort by the shear weight of the allied war effort. I Include scientists with intellectuals, which might be a stretch.

Who didn't thrive were Jewish intellectuals, who (the smart and the able) fled the country.

What do you think they will feel toward people who both think for themselves, and know E&W?

"They" will probably label them as unfit for whatever purpose. All the more reason to keep a low profile. Being ex-military, you of all people should get this.

anonymous411
September 4th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Considering all the ideas he swipes from his eggheaded think tank cronies, I doubt Rumsfeld was knocking intellectuals in the abstract; just the "unpedigreed" ones who disagree with him and chatter in the media.
You have to admit there's a lot of uninformed ignorant blather on the subject these days that helps no one. Not to mention all the misinformation that gets foisted off on the public in the form of propaganda. And all the disingenuous claptrap spun by people who couldn't think beyond a short-term election cycle if their lives depended on it. With bullshit flying from every side, how can any reasonable person get enough truth to form a valid and sound opinion at all? It's strictly a lose-lose situation.

***

If you're willing to look the other way at the consequences of your actions, the State always provides scientists and intellectuals plenty of opportunities to strike a Faustian bargain. If you think of all the rocket scientists the US coaxed out of Nazi Germany after the war to work on the Moon project, you'll see it's always been the same.

I once met George von Tiesehausen, a member of the "Von Braun" rocket team who went on to develop the Saturn rocket and lunar rover. When asked "how could you work under Hitler" he basically shrugged it off: pure science and the goal of reaching the moon was everything. He couldn't care less who was using his research for what ends... the main thing was he got his lab and the resources to make it happen.

If Diabolique "played nice" and said what was expected of him, he'd be sitting pretty on top of a big fat research contract too.

simply RED
September 4th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Diabolique, you are right, sadly...
anonymous, things are not like that these days! I wish I had lived in the days of the WW2 or the cold war. Now is much, much worse!
It is not - we kill people with your research.
It is - we kill you if you try any research! It is like the holy fucking inquisition!

Even I work as hard as possible and do exactly what they say I will never touch science. You have to be at least 35-45 to get a research job! (PhD + Postdoc + 10 years of (relevant - whatever it means (working in the professor's cow farm, etc) experience) Making PhD is nothing more than digging trenches.

btw, to get the desired position here, you have to be one of the good (not necessary the best) but quite necessary relative or at least a good friend of the boss. (or at least try to play a game that does not allow them not to include you)

It is coming the Dark Ice Age again!
So, we have to be more "versatile" if we do not want to follow the dinosaurs and become extincted species!

Cobalt.45
September 4th, 2006, 07:02 PM
It is coming the Dark Ice Age again!
So, we have to be more "versatile" if we do not want to follow the dinosaurs and become extincted species!

Alas, all things are cyclic. Who'd have thought pre-9/11 that being the manufacturer of, say, bullet resistant vests, would be a sweet position to be in? Being versatile is very much a survival tactic in business as well as life. "Expect the unexpected" and all that.

Back on thread:
What occurs to me, is that in the face of chemical restrictions above and beyond anything we've yet seen, that many folks will hoard what they can. And in doing so, some will invariably have catastrophic accidents.

Anybody considering putting up any largish quantities of consumables. do so with a modicum of forethought as to how to best keep their stash from taking them or their neighbors/ family out, if an accident should occur.

I remember seeing several links to sites devoted to proper magazine construction here and elsewhere. Might be a good idea for large scale pack rats to look them over.

Diabolique
September 5th, 2006, 12:49 PM
Cobalt, IMO those who caved or ignored what the Nazis were doing were not true intellectuals. They did not think for themselves.

Anonymous, you are right, but you do not know the whole of it. To make the big bucks means leaving behind real engineering, and becoming management. I have left jobs because I was being groomed for a management position. The biggest mistake I ever made, in or out of the Army, was accepting promotion to senior NCO. I do not enjoy being the leader. To paraphrase Milton's Lucifer; it is far better to rule one's self that to rule or follow in heaven or hell.

As for keeping a low profile, I learned that is not an option for me. I can stay quite and at the back of the crowd, but the instant I utter a single sentance, the crowd turns around and I am no longer hidden at its rear. I suspect that many in this thread have encountered the same thing. Sheeple want leaders, and thinking for one's self makes you a potential leader. To the sheepledogs (police, FBI), sheepleherders (gov't) and wolves (corporations), that makes you a threat to their 'leadership'.

It is nice that we discuss the fine points of E&W on this site, but at the War College they teach logistics more than they teach Tsun Tzu. Him, they teach to the cadets at the military academies. The colonels and generals are supposed to know him by heart.

Logistics, for any resistance fighter, is considerably more critical. It is probably the second most common way they get caught - informants and turncoats being the first. To make RDX, hexamine is a critical precursor. Stockpiling may not be wise, as they know this, and will be looking for it. So knowing how to make it from some form of formaldehyde and ammonia will become critical.

Formaldehyde may become more difficult to obtain as well, so knowing how to make it from methanol is also useful. This requires a catalyst, such as platinum gauze. Today methanol is easy to obtain, but tomorrow, after some terrorist uses it to make and use methyl sulfate?

Obtain and hide platinum gauze instead, which can also be used to make nitric and sulfuric acids of high quality and concentration. The materials that are the most critical are those that permit us to manufacture the percursors we need from easily procured or found materials. Maybe someone could look into what these critical materials are? Remember when peanut butter came in glass jars with graduation marks embosed on the side?

Cobalt.45
September 5th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Cobalt, IMO those who caved or ignored what the Nazis were doing were not true intellectuals. They did not think for themselves.

Hindsight gives you the impression that the final solution, et al, was a well known and publicised occurrence, and that everyone was in on all the information that it's taken 60+ years to glean, that the scientific minded were as political as the upper echelon of the reich.

Scientists generally could have cared less what was going on as long as they were able to pursue their chosen research. Very much as it is today...

cutefix
September 5th, 2006, 11:31 PM
Only an academician would think like this...:
Not a seasoned and trained field trained personnel

To make RDX, hexamine is a critical precursor. Stockpiling may not be wise, as they know this, and will be looking for it. So knowing how to make it from some form of formaldehyde and ammonia will become critical.
Obtain and hide platinum gauze instead, which can also be used to make nitric and sulfuric acids of high quality and concentration.

Professor ...
Why would a resistance fighter worry about finding hexamine or making it from its precursors?
First and formost he will be concerned that he is living in survival situation and making RDX will be the last thing that will come in his mind.
Besides he can always make other powerful explosives from easy to obtain ingredients. That is one value of the E&W forum and the like.

Why would he stock pile very expensive catalyst made from precious metals when simplier means to make such acids are avaialable. Besides even if you had in position to posses such catalyst do you think that practically speaking the level of the chemical purity of your produced precursors will be comparable to what you can get from the chemical industry?
It will still be technical grade at most. So its not different from the H2SO4/NaNO3 etc distillation methods.
Therefore
The money to procure such costly metals would be much better used for other practical ways to make precursors.

Besides do you think that even if you have the facility( in field conditions to make such chemicals) using the catalysts, h ow can you prevent such expensive catalyst from not being easily poisoned ( therefore rendered ineffective in the synthesis)with the quality of available raw materials you can obtain?
The efficiency of such expensive catalytic methods relies partly on the high purity of raw materials...and the capability to maintain a sanitized and controlled conditions for effective synthesis.
If you look closely at the chemistry of HNO3 preparation from ammonia, the required contact time for the catalyst and ther reactants is only a matter of microseconds, do you think that you can have an efficient flow control devices in adverse conditions as well as ancilliary equipment to make that happen?

What is important in field expedient synthesis is how you can make certain materials in adverse conditions.
Regarding formaldehyde, mortuaries etc will always have it instock but he will steal from there ( or elsewhere)and would likely make Pentaerythritol from it than hexamine.
There are expedient methods of making such precursor from the literature.

If he happen to have have methanol he would rather make methyl nitrate from it which is simplier...than using it to make HCHO and from there mix it with NH3 catalytically until your obtain HNO3

Besides direct nitration of this material ( pentaerytritol) to make PETN is likely to produce better yield than making RDX the same way.

Going to field expedient preparations the simplest way to make powerful explosives would be option and not the product that you prefer( if you are in normal peacetime situations)

Stealing the raw materials than making is another better option ..... and he can make other things so that he can succeed in his field expedient synthesis of explosive materials.


Hence he can make improvised explosives easier.

me234
September 6th, 2006, 06:59 AM
Diabolique, please do NOT take your grand-niece out of public school. Leave her there. She may be a bit too young to understand now, but at some stage during her life, just like the rest of us, she must interact with sheeple, learn to see them differently from herself, realise that they are all asleep inside, in their minds. I myself only really learned about sheeple a few years ago, I always held them in contempt, those trendy, all-I-care-about-is-my-hairstyle putz's, but I never really knew about sheeple until I got here and accelerated my ability to learn for myself, my ability to analyse what really goes on in some peoples' mind's (please note I didn't actually say I was any good at it, yet, we are all continually learning after all).

She may not grasp the ideas behind sheeple, or why they are happy as sheeple and will fight you to remain sheeple, but she must definitely be informed about them. You seem to be doping a pretty decent job helping raise her, just remember that knowing how to keep a low profile can be invaluable, school can help with that. Especially if she's anything like you who apparently draws attention the second his mouth opens (from what you say).

Please keep her in school, don't home school her, well home educate, not school, her (well, you know what I mean: keep her in public school, but don't let her schooling get in the way of her education). Continually interacting with sheeple and learning how to avoid detection in their midst while being able to see them with the pity they deserve, while not showing that in your eyes is a valuable lesson.

Who knows, maybe she'll make some like-minded friends.

Oh, and also, being mildly persecuted like she has been for being different will help her feel alienated from the sheeple while forcing her to learn to control her emotions and hide them from the sheeple. This can also help reinforce her sense of being unique and get her used to operating alone (a must when you're as alone as most of us are in our true lives) and it can help her grow a backbone pretty fast (with family around, her becoming hardened by society openly attacking her individuality won't be too harsh a lesson, you guys can help her out a lot there).

OK, sorry for the OT post, I just wanted Diabolique to hear my opinions because they were slightly different from some others, and I wanted to get some counter arguments through to him to help keep his mind as open as possible (although I'm sure he doesn't need anybody's help for that).


On topic:

Any of you here old enough to remember the days when science teachers would make "Touch Powder" and fill plastic soda bottles with hydrogen and oxygen and make a nice loud noise? Well, those of you that do have those memories will also remember that in those days it was much easier to talk a friend into helping you out with an experiment. The reason is this:
These days people are so career orientated (read: trying to immerse themselves in the all-worthy goal of making as much money as they can before they die, just so they can have a goal to focus on so they can blot out the rest of life and tell themselves they're doing that to focus on their all-worthy goal) that if they do have kids, they use school as a daycare, to get the kids out their hair. Kids are a distraction to them, so they tell the kids: "listen to your teacher, and do what he/she says because he/she knows best" just so they can dump the responsibility of bringing the children up onto the teachers shoulders.

The teachers then get told what they must teach the children by the fucking government (hmm, no agenda there). So for the most part the teachers' hands are tied, so even if they did want to do a good job of raising the children, they get fired for trying.

So, to recap: we have
- uninterested parents
- children needing attention
- a government agenda being forced down their throats by...
- the only people the children get attention from: the teachers

Of course kids treat everything teachers say as gospel, it's the only gospel they know, they are not given any opportunity to think any other way than how the teacher tells them to think. Now the teachers sprout forth the government bullshit about how dangerous doing an experiment is, and bingo :eek: : no child, teenager, or 'modern' adult will dare try something out for himself. From the earliest age people are brought up to believe everything they are told, to accept this blindly, to not question, and now people wander why there's nobody interested in science anymore? Why is amateur science dying out: because sheeple are indoctrinated from the earliest ages to not do that. The true, most vicious, most terrifyingly efficient attack on amateur science, is the indoctrination of the young.

Some school teacher somewhere with a grudge probably told her grade 4 class about how these bad people who sold chemicals from the horrible "United Nuclear" were put out of business by the wonderful government who protects us. "See children, that's a good thing isn't it? Say 'Yes it's a good thing Miss Smith' class. That's a good little class..."

P.s. Sorry if my post reads kinda disjointed, I'm a bit out of it today.

Diabolique
September 6th, 2006, 12:41 PM
Cutefix, in the simplest terms, you are correct - why make formaldehyde when it is available over the counter? I may not have made myself clear. I remember when Ammonium Nitrate was something you could walk into a hardware or agriculture supply store, and buy as many or few bags of you desired, no questions asked. Methanol may become a similarly controlled substance after a terror attack using methyl sulfate, a potent but corrosive blister agent. Iodine could be purchased anywhere, until the meth cookers began buying it up. In Vietnam, hexamine was readily available on the battlefield as ration heating tablets. They were replaced by trioxane because it was cheaper. Today, ration heaters use water reacting with various chemicals and powdered metals.

It is easy to say, make PETN from pentaerytritol. Where do you get the pentaerytritol from? You can make it from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, but where do you get acetaldehyde? Do you know how to handle acetaldehyde if you could get it? It is not that benign a chemical.

There are many chemicals disappearing off the shelves. They have been deemed too dangerous for the public to have ready access to. What is common today may be critical or unobtainable tomorrow.

Logistics will be the single most important thing when the crunch comes. The materials needed may not be there, or if they are, would require you to identify yourself to obtain them, leaving a trail straight back to you. You may steal formalin solution, but when the police investigate the theft, the list of uses for formalin will have "manufacture of explosives" at or near the top. That should make them feel that the theft is unimportant.

We can work around shortages by substituting some things for others. What do we do when we can find no more substitutes? How much black powder is needed to bring down a steel bridge? Even the cheddites may not be up to that job.

I was a field man, and taught other field men. I also have been in situations where critical materials were unavailable. Imagine being in the field with canned rations to eat, but no way to open the cans short of smashing them open. Since then, I always carry at least one P-38 can opener with me, and do not depend on all cans having pop-tops.

What I was suggesting was that while we have the time and means, we should identify what the "can openers" are, then obtain them. In the future, to make RDX, PETN or anything else without chancing being locked up may require knowing how to destructively distill wood. That 1 inch square of platinum gauze could become worth more than its weight in, well, platinum.

Something may be useless until it is needed. Remember the old saying, necessity is a mutha!

cutefix
September 6th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Diabolique I agree in some of your points …
But I have different perspective in dire situations, when you have nothing to stock . that you have to scrounge and make use of anything available including improvised field preparation of explosives
IMO ingredients Logistics is better left in organized situation where everything is stable.I don't put too much importance on it, specially if you are mobile person and travelling around often.

A survivalist mindset is more important..
What is emphasized is the knowhow and ability to thrive in such dire situations. That must be cultivated as that is more useful than stocking things that may arouse suspicion if some somebody notice your queer purchase.


Going back to the issue about aldehydes
Both aldehyde can be made by the dehydration of the alcohols: HCHO from CH3OH, CH3CHO from C2H5OH.
If you know what these aldehydes, are then handling them is not a problem.
Acetaldehyde is not different from formaldehyde as they have irritating properties so you better know how to use if with minimal influence in your comfort.

But as you are preparing pentaerythritol likely outdoors you don’t have to worry about it being affected by these aldehydes.
It might be time consuming to make this polyhydric alcohol(pentaerythritol) , compared to hexamine but knowing how much PETN you can get from it per mole is worth the effort in its preparation.
Why I emphasize PETN over RDX is that there is a significant better yield for the given amount of acid used in the synthesis.
Hence You can make more improvised explosive devices for the same weight of available acid to make the core material(PETN)

Say for example; you have around 700-800 grams of distilled HNO3( from H2SO4/NaNO3 or NH4NO3),then by direct nitration you can use not more than 100 grams of hexamine and you get roughly the same amount of RDX(90-100 grams); where as with pentaerythritol for that acid quantity you can use up twice ( 200 grams) and you will likely get not lesser than 400 grams of PETN!

Regarding formalin theft:
You can always tell them that you are amateur taxidermist and you want to embalm your dead animals . Etc.

I doubt about stealing formalin is a serious crime , besides what evidence can they pin your stolen material to the source if nobody saw you and you are careful on your theft.
Bsidess Nobody would put a taggant in formalin in the way they do with explosives

Regarding catalysts
If it happens that I really need a catalyst to dehydrogenate alcohols to aldehydes I will prefer the cheap copper tubing than the very expensive noble metals; platinum,palladium and rhodium.
I find it impractical to have around those “jewels” .
I would rather prepare my precursors the simple old fashioned way, boiling or distillation of acids with its precursors.
BTW your worry that you don’t have strong explosives for sabotage to make linear, cone shape charges, EFP, homemade plastique, detonators etc
A resourceful survivalist "chemist" can make things happen and not what can possibly happen...
That differentiate them from amateurs that have limited ideas and more worries about availability of materials

Look, in special forces training for explosive preparation the trainee is tested how he can make improvised explosives from available materials where he is located.

BTW regarding improvised can opening….
This sometimes gives me doubt if you have attended survival traning as you claim difficulty in opening cans.
In the past I have used various implements to open "stolen" can goods : ranging from spoons, sharpened rock,large nail, pick axes, mattock , steel bars, crowbar, the back of the hammer, screwdriver, assortment of knives including bayonets..even door latches and hinges !
If you are dependent on your issued can opener you will be in trouble as you will be surely helpless if you lose it.( or deliberately taken from your posession.)
Note* stolen as we were subjected to E&E manuever ,(and had no provisions )that we have to do everything in order to survive.

Diabolique
September 7th, 2006, 02:22 AM
True, I never had survival training, I had to learn survival "on the job." I later taught the fine points I learned to the first instructors at the Ft. Huachuca desert survival school. The most important is that the techniques in the survival manual do not work all that often. The result of too many years in the Army, doing too many jobs.

I do know those chemicals, and others. I am in my "fix" today due to chemical exposures. Before handling any chemical, I would recommend a person read the MSDS on it, and follow the precautions it gives.

Stealing materials should always be the last resort, no matter how much experience you have at it, and how hard you try not to, you will always leave some small piece of evidence behind.

I would suggest that you download from the ftp site the papers on shaped charges and the explosives labs textbooks (LANL, LLNL, Sandia, etc.) on explosives properties and behavior. A well made shaped charge with high Pc-j explosives can penetrate three times its diameter of steel armor. A precision made one five times its diameter. I am trying to locate the paper I have on the drawing of precision shaped charge cones.

I also believe PETN is a preferable explosive over RDX, but for different reasons. Its explosive properties make it very useful, such as its d-to-d time/distance, detonation wave steady-state distance, critical diameter, stability and ease of initiation. Excellant for detonators (including EBW and Slappers) and boosters. IMO, RDX is just a little easier to make.

BTW - what did you think I ment by smashing a can open? Messy. Do you blame me for carrying a P-38 around?

I think our points of view are converging. I have read your other posts, and find them interesting.

cutefix
September 7th, 2006, 10:28 PM
.” The most important is that the techniques in the survival manual do not work all that often. “

Survival means that you have to find ways how to live in adverse conditions which relies more on being able to maintain your composure in spite of the stress and use that to your advantage in keeping your self alive and achieve your other objectives ….
The manual only gives you a guide, but it all depends upon your wits on how to use it

”I do know those chemicals, and others. I would recommend a person read the MSDS on it, and follow the precautions it gives.”

Thee are some points about MSDS, but its just useful for its informative and training value; But when you’re in the field situations its meaning can be modified.
For Example’
If you are not familiar or worried about certain chemical substance(,as its unlabelled etc ,) that might be noxious keep this alternative meaning in mind: MSDS
MAKE that SHIT (the particular chemical) DISTANT from your SELF.
Or
But if you want to use it them for offensive purposes
MSDS means : MAKE that SUBSTANCE useful to DESTROY your enemies to your SATISFACTION

”Stealing materials should always be the last resort, “

That is what my former trainors said, but in adverse conditions during conflict, you have to use your commonsense in order to survive., and that includes theft.

“I would suggest that you download from the ftp site ..”

My training in this field is ample enough for me to create suitable charges that can do the job best for my selected purpose.

”I also believe PETN is a preferable explosive over RDX, but for different reasons. “

PETN vs RDX?- they are roughly the same. I have no problems with using or preferring any of them. My point is in situation that if your purpose is to maximize the amount of explosive material that you can use later to make plastique PETN can give you more stuff worth from your precious nitric acid.
What makes Hexogen advantageous is its better stability .


”BTW - what did you think I ment by smashing a can open? Messy. Do you blame me for carrying a P-38 around?”

Not really, you have to position the can ends where you can exert the right amount of force using the available implement. You try to punch holes first then drain any liquid ( if there is) then it would be easier to rip it open…

But Yes, the cans can get dented (but not crushed) if you are using improvised openers specially those that are blunts; but a hungry person don’t care much if part of the contents are spilt as long you still have some “ meaty consumables " left inside.
Even the presence of dirt in the food attributed to the brute way to open cans( some specks of dirt can drop into the food) means nothing to a hungry person.

Gerbil
October 6th, 2006, 10:37 PM
Although it's a bit late:

In my experience, public schools will have one of two effects on kids: sheeple or free-thought. Whilst the majority will spend the rest of their lives eating metaphorical grass, bear in mind that perhaps these would be the weak-minded people who literally couldn't bear anything but the naive comfort that sheepledom provides.

After spending 5 years in an institution where freedom was itself a taboo word, I emerged angry and thoughtful. The school invested vast resources in the form of psycological 'punishments' (detentions, gating, being barred from wearing 'normal' clothes) in an attempt to get me to conform to their ideas, which tended to revolve around unquestioning obedience. My stance wasn't about breaking the rules, it was about resisting the pressure to join the sheeple in the eternal field of ignorance. And that long experience means that I feel I'm fairly immune to propaganda in the wider world.

So, perhaps such an education isn't so bad...as long as your kid's up to it. ;)