Clearing a building, quickly.....and quietly

[Red Beret]

I wasn't really sure where this should go so I've just put it here, my apoligies if it's not in the right section.

I was thinking the other day, how could one flush a building, without excessive noise, or lethal weapons. My mind was drawn back to a news story I saw a few years back. It was a nightclub that was eveacuated due to people having trouble breathing, coughing, burning eyes, collapsing and such. It was found that a can of pepper spray had been sprayed into the air conditioning unit. So I think it could be assumed that an air conditioning unit is highly effective at dispersing anti personell agents.

So, that is one method that could be used, and scaled up with more cans of spray if you want them to clear out more quickly.

Other variations on this method would be; spraying tear gas into the aircon unit, one could also put smoke thorugh with the gas or pepper spray, to increase confusion and panic. You could be realy nasty and put Mustard or Chloropicrin through.

The applications for this are fairly obvious, but I was thinking along the lines of flushing people from a house, so you could capture get someone you might be wanting to "talk" to. Or so you could charge in with your gas mask on and take what you want. Obviously the structure would need an air conditioning unit, for this method to work.

Does anyone else have any suggestions along these lines for clearing a building or room?

[sdjsdj]

Perhaps flooding the building with ammonia would produce the desired impact, scaring everyone in the building to the extent that an uncertain outdoors seems preferable to staying put. Alternatively, the traditional smoke bomb and/or petrol bomb and/or minor fuel-air explosive should get people moving fairly quick.

[c.Tech]

How about flushing them out with many mini chlorine bombs?

I remember somebody doing a test on a hamster and a cat but I forgot what thread it was from. He ended up waiting 20 minutes or so until the hamster died and then let his cat out.
(Forgive me if I’m inaccurate I haven’t seen that thread in a while.)

A small improvised 2 sectioned device could be made with ammonium and bleach.

Pull a pin to activate them then let it expand in a way such as strapping and gluing a balloon to the top.

Once the pressure gets too high it will explode releasing chlorine all around the house/building. (That’s probably as OTC as one could get)

Correct me if I’m mistaken but if lots of these devices were scattered in vents (or other concealed areas) it would fill the house/building fairly quickly.

[deadman]

Well seeing as how he said without lethal. I'm sure he doesn't want anything more than a prank.

I'd say go with a big 5-10 pound sugar/KNO3 smoke bomb. Melting would be a pain in the crapper with such a big amount but if you werer to just put the chems in a large enough container and shake it would definitley put a lot of smoke through the vents without any threatening gas. Plus a good amount of fuse would for sure light it and give you enough time to get away.

Again all of these things are over the counter. They are a bit more expensive but safer.

Careful if you use this as it gets hot enough to melt through an A/C vent and would most likely fall through so if you find a spot in a vent over concrete thats perfect.

[inventorgp]

Release gases into air conditioning like mustard gas, tear gas
or chloroform.

At Stamford Plaza Hotel (The famous one in Brisbane) there was
something let into the air ways, and they didn't evacuate the
building:eek:

That sounds like something I'd do:p

Yes, very good ideas people - smoke bombs and chlorine bombs.
Smoke bombs through the vents are good, if you don't have "gas".

Or you could stick an explosive near the air intake and set it of!
Sound would travel though the vents into the building and
scare everyone.

Or walk in with a SMG or .50 BMG, uh any gun, anyone that would be
intimidated would have "brown pants" if you know what I mean. heh heh...


DON'T DO CHLORINE, I have nearly choked on chlorine gas WWI style.:mad:

[Alexires]

Dead man - use [ instead of <.

c.Tech - Wouldn't the chlorine eat at the balloon?

Smoke is a good idea. A mate of mine (stoned at the time) lit up a 500g batch of blackpowder (fairly rough) in a small room. The first breath in the smoke filled air produced a burning to the lungs. A few more produced dizziness and sharp pain in the chest.

The problem with that would be that you would need alot of smoke composition to cause mass evacuation of a office block, for example.

How about some good old n-butanoic acid? Smells like rancid butter, and the reputation goes that no one can have a good wiff without vomiting everywhere.

Someone put that in the airvents at a school near here for muck up day. Had to get hazmat in and all and replace alot of stuff that was contaminated.

[knowledgehungry]

You could attempt to synthesize cadaverine by the decarboxlyation of lysine(an amino acid). This would most likely require more sophisticated lab equipment than most have access to, but I doubt anyone would be able to stay in a building with the lovely smell of concentrated death and decay.

An easier way to clear the building is to use a relatively small amount of ethanethiol dispersed throught the vents. Ethanethiol is what gives natural gas its distinctive odor, so if people smell ethanethiol strongly they are going to assume there is a large gas leak and flee the building. In larger quantities ethanethiol, or almost any thiol will clear the building by its horrible odor alone, regardless of association with natural gas.

[Jacks Complete]

The gas smell is a great idea. No-one is going to sit tight!

The smoke bomb sugar/nitrate mix would work well, just stick the pan on a insulating panel. Even a bit of plywood would be fine.

The balloon idea is a good one. Yes, the chlorine would eat the balloon, but it should take more than long enough for the pressure to have built up, even if the pressure doesn't pop it right away. In fact, getting the delay to be long enough might be the issue. Don't forget, of course, that cholrine isn't harmless, not at all! It forms HCl in the lungs, and can kill.

I'm not in the states, but you could probably catch a skunk and shove that in the air vent.

Don't forget, also, that the air conditioner has to be blowing in the right direction, and it also needs to be a centralised system, otherwise you will only harm/affect one small area.

[nbk2000]

Take a dead animal the size of a cat, enclose it in a black plastic bag (un-tied), leave in the sun for a few days, then tie it closed and toss it in the air intake of the A/C.

If you're not concerned about when it goes off, leave it tied shut. Decomposition will create gases that will eventually rupture the bag, releasing pure retching stench.

Otherwise, just leave it open. :)

Chlorine, in the amounts likely to be created by a chemical reaction in an airvent, would be harmless, though irritating.

Mustard gas? :rolleyes: No, not harmless, though likely non-lethal (<2% fatalities) to the intended targets. But it wouldn't drive them out if it's pure, because it's nearly odorless, and the raw kind wouldn't be sufficently irritating to flush out someone who didn't want to leave. And anyways, how likely is it that they'd know what that smell meant?

Chloropicrin would be very efficient, as it'd be a chemical vapor irritant, able to pass through mechanical filters which would be sufficient to stop an aerosol irritant like OC.

Fire works great. Worked at Waco. ;)

Set fire to the front, and wait in ambush at the rear, to blast them as they run out. Quick and quiet, though draws attention with annoying flames.

Exact means would vary depending on your tolerance for injuries/fatalities (theirs or yours), legal consequences, intention (prank?/crime?), etc.

[Alexires]

Just following the smoke idea, how about a whole shitload of cheap cigarettes? It might not clear everyone, but it would sure as hell piss people off and would burn for ages.

Perhaps the good old brake fluid and chlorine mix? Maybe in seperate containers that drip into one at an intermediate amount of time, thus hopefully preventing fire, and having a long lasting effect (depending on the rate of mix).

Hopefully in two days I'll have run a few smoke bomb tests, trying to find a good one. Stay tuned for our next episode!

[Chris The Great]

Ethanethiol is one of the worst smelling sompounds in existance, AFAIK the isopropyl variant is even stronger. They can be smelt at concentrations as low a 0.25 parts per billion for the isopropyl compound. A mere test tube would vacate a building from the stench alone.

[Cobalt.45]

Take a dead animal the size of a cat, enclose it in a black plastic bag (un-tied), leave in the sun for a few days, then tie it closed and toss it in the air intake of the A/C.


Same premise, except using readily available "Fish Emulsion". Sold at nurseries, supposed to be good for plants.

This shit reeks like nothing else I've ever encountered, and can be made worse by "ripening". Leaving it out in the heat for a day or two increases the stench, but if you get even a small bit on your bare skin, you'll smell it for days.

Works great when applied to the interior material of cars, too...

[c.Tech]

Don't forget, also, that the air conditioner has to be blowing in the right direction, and it also needs to be a centralized system, otherwise you will only harm/affect one small area.

Even if it wasn’t a centralized system, more devices could be scattered in all the smaller systems, it would be a bonus to find the buildings blueprints. They can be activated with a timing devices or remote, such as portable alarms.

I was thinking of a compound such as capsiacin or piperine, they should flush people out quick.

It would be slightly more difficult since they are solids. What way could these irritants be dispersed?

[Alexires]

I've done a few tests lately regarding smoke compositions and have stumbled across something VERY interesting.

Ever inhale the smoke from a smoldering piece of silver duct/electrical (not too sure what kind) tape? Trust me, if you have, you wont ever again.

When I'm testing my smoke compositions, I normally use a cardboard tube with some of said electrical tape as a seal. In my test room (40m2), about 15cm of burned electrical tape is unbearable. Stinging eyes, and difficulty breathing are symptoms of this beast.

80g of KNO3 mixed with 50g of Sugar and about 15-20g of Sodium bicarbonate (to slow the burning) will form enough smoke to make vision in the test room way less than 30cm and with the addition of a layer of electrical tape, remaining in said room is unbareable.

At a rough guess, I would say about 300g of said smoke composition to reduce 100m2 building to 0 visability. If you incorporate about a metre of silver electrical tape in there somewhere (so that it smokes, but doesn't burn) that building will be empty real fucking quick.

I would post images of the test, but I can't, for some reason. It seems that one cannot post images in the Water Cooler. I'll go find a smoke bomb thread and post there (if I can).

c.Tech, there is a thread with a few ideas on dispersing chilli pepper or some other irritant around here somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember where it was.

[Jacks Complete]

Electrical tape is PVC, I believe, and you get nasty chlorine compunds formed. Aluminium tape for duct repair gives off aluminium fumes - I don't know what they actually are - and they burn your airways and stink.

A mix of the two would be interesting.

Fact: Duct tape isn't suitable for ducts.

An interesting stink that could easily be done by a timer circuit is that of overloaded LEDs. They stink with an acrid sharp smell that empties a classroom in moments. Plug one into a mains socket to hear it pop, and find out.

[Cobalt.45]

How about the russkies and their ill executed (no pun intended) attack on the Chechen rebels that took over a theatre over in Moscow? Pumped the place full of fentanyl and that was that. It didn't clear the place out, though. Just zonked the lot of them to the point of unconsciousness, and/ or coma and death.

I like the smoke grenade approach to the situation. All that's missing is one word- FIRE!!! People will literally trample each other to death to escape, in some situations.

Big smoke device. Dim lights. Scream FIRE.

My bad- "Clearing a building quickly and quietly"... no yelling involved.

[c.Tech]

c.Tech, there is a thread with a few ideas on dispersing chilli pepper or some other irritant around here somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember where it was.
That thread is here http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/battlefield-chemistry/2649-pain-compound-smoke-bomb.html?highlight=capsiacin, I’ve read it a couple of times before . But I was more referring to dispersing them in a solution or gas (such as butane).

The chili oil idea didn’t work very well for me. I soaked a tissue in chili oil and burnt it with my head directly above it, nothing happened. Although when I put some on a cigarette and told my friend to smoke it he coughed a couple of times then later he said it made his throat feel numb (so I know there was some capsiacin present).

Maybe I didn’t use a good enough source of chilies (supermarket powdered). I'm thinking Tabasco sauce next.

I searched google for the extraction and other useful information some time back and found these links. They will be of some use to people wanting to extract piperine especially the last one.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:8j3n_A50ZyQJ:www.noractech.com/technology/maypaper.doc+piperine+extraction&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1
http://www.bioperine.com/us_patent.htm
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:tLzJyI0TokoJ:courses.chem.psu.edu/chem36/Chem36H/IndivExpt1/874%2520Piperine.pdf+piperine+extraction&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=9
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/(rxbgoy55vwk5orajte2hovaz)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,8,13;journal,26,113;linkingpublicatio nresults,1:102600,1
http://students.chem.tue.nl/6n220-8/introduction.htm
http://www.ceresconsulting.com/images/SMI2005Formulationst.pdf
http://www.omniactives.com/piperine.htm
http://www.pharmcast.com/Patents/102699OG/5972382_piperine1102699.htm
http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~orglabs/x61web/frames/psl4/fr_psl4_labtips.html
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4698

[neo-crossbow]

Back in my army days a little twerp of a man put some tobasco sauce inside a warmer pocket for MRE's. It certainly cleared a barracks of sensetive eyed princesses in uniform.

Tobasco in aerosol form is nasty. It also can be kitted up to a kettle that is kept on boil with the help of some electrical tape. Takes time to fill a room though.

[Alexires]

c.Tech - I did a few experiments involving KNO3 + Sugar compound and chilli. It seems that the temperature is enough to decompose the chilli (not suprisingly). I was thinking of bubbling the hot smoke through a chamber of chilli extracted into oil or something of the sort. Maybe that would be cool enough to prevent it from burning up.

Butane is a wonderful thing. If the container you are using is even SLIGHTLY capped, the butane won't evaporate. Hence, it would be easy to fill a (roll on) deoderant bottle with butane+chilli and then when the time came to use, unscrew the top (ball is already removed for easy access) and tip onto carpet/bread/wood/anything porous.

I found that ear plugs are good for a slow release of butane, probably charcoal would work too (the pre-burnt stuff, not the coal looking ones).

Update: Hmmm, yes butane might work for extracting the capsaicin, but it doesn't seem to vaporize it all that well. A little burning in the throat, but nothing spectacular. I used powdered chilli too, so maybe it is just crap. Tabasco may indeed work better, but I have none.

*sigh* back to the drawing board (Although, my fingers ARE burning, but upon licking them, there was nothing, so maybe it was the cold).

[Jacks Complete]

I don't think, in this day and age, you are going to clear a large building (more than 10 unrelated people) without a fuss. The first sign of anything wrong enough for them to have to leave is going to get a panicked response.

Be it a fire, smoke, itching powder or whatever, some people are going to panic and think it is the terrorists, even if it is burnt toast.

[c.Tech]

I don't think, in this day and age, you are going to clear a large building (more than 10 unrelated people) without a fuss. The first sign of anything wrong enough for them to have to leave is going to get a panicked response.

Be it a fire, smoke, itching powder or whatever, some people are going to panic and think it is the terrorists, even if it is burnt toast.

Not always. People do panic but by the time it would take for emergency services to arrive you could have kicked in the door, done your 'business', got out and drove off.

Unless you need to do a time consuming task, then you should act in stealth or dress as a staff member.

Lots of the time panicky events aren’t even taken seriously.

Some time ago in Melbourne I was on a train heading out of the city far from home. The train stopped and we herd over the loud speaker, “We have been advised by the Victorian police that you need to leave the train” or similar to that. We all got off and crowded around the station.

I soon found out that somebody pushed the emergency button with a bomb threat of some sort. They seemed to have taken someone in the back of their car but I didn’t really see much.

Our train left ¾ of an hour after stopping. Unfortunately we were one station away from where we needed to go and it was raining. At the time the train left we had already organized for a lift which was quite difficult at midnight.

Why only 4 police cars came and we were all left to crowd around the station, I don’t know.

[Jacks Complete]

That's the difference though. An announcement is one thing, choking chemical smell and visible smoke is another!

[c.Tech]

True, but what I’m trying to say is if you have a small quick task to do, such as destroy or steal a computer you could be in and out of there in a heartbeat.

Emergency services will come (depending on what everyone thinks it is) with their NBC suits, guns etc. but there not going to be there within 15 seconds.

If a fire, electrical fault, etc. happened the result wouldn’t be as drastic. If you could make the event look like a mistake or fire you could still get people out as quick without the terrorist threat. How about flushing the house with LPG and a bit of smoke from burning wood (away from each other of course to prevent explosion)?

One would need a good, quick and secure escape route.

[Alexires]

c.Tech - In a world where pizza gets there faster than the pigs do.

[Exerd]

While I cannot suggest anything further than the pepper spray, I can contest that the stuff works with immediate scatter and impact on a crowd...

While at a medium-sized outdoor convention about a year ago, I actually experienced a strikingly similar incident to the club that was evacuated.

Apparently, someone had to of unleashed a can of pepper spray, but I do not know if it was directly into the ventilation system. I remember hearing a man start to cough loudly while I was walking...suddenly I noticed people everywhere were starting to cough in different areas I looked. So I started to breath slower and walk faster to clear from the area. I immediatly assumed pepper spray, as I have experienced it, and fortunately it only managed to hit me the slightest bit in this incident. I do know however that in the affected area, people were violently gasping for air and clearing out, and the unknown source spread quite rapidly through the large building. It ended up covering (and affecting fairly badly) quite a large area of people.

I don't know how much was sprayed that day, but it sure has some nasty abilities on crowds after witnessing this. The biggest concern for anyone I would have to say, is truely not knowing exactly what you are breathing when it happens. You simply want to evacuate.