What Weapon?

[Czech Guy]

I would like to know which if any weapons do you carry to defend yourself?

I live in a really bad area my weapon of choice so to speak is a ASP expandable baton. I like it because I fold it up keep it above my belt under a jacket and with a flick of the wrist I have a 26 inch baton. I often carry a good folding knife as well.

The weapon that is most often used in bashings in my area is a trolley pole or a large chef knife. There are many punkass teenagers who think they are "gangster" and start fights with people for the hell of it and I can tell you that the ASP baton has saved my ass more than once. A lot of these "wannabee ganstas" have no real skill with what they are using so for someone like me I have no real problem taking them on but many other are easy targets.

Before moving to this country, I was a security guard and then a personal body guard. I also severed in the army of 2 years when I turned 18 as it was mandatory (Now it is only a year). I have trained and passed several knife defence and other courses. When I first moved to Australia I ran a self defence training centre as well as a gym. But that’s another story.

Please excuse my English as English is not my first langue but I think you can understand?

+++++++++


Apologizing for your english, or lack thereof, is a bannable offense, because we either understand what you are saying and allow you to stay here, or you're banned because we can't.

The fact that you're still here is enough proof of your acceptance, so don't bring up the apologies again, otherwise you're gone.

[c.Tech]

I live in a good area and usually always away from danger so there is no real need for me to carry a weapon.

Although there has been one time when somebody was out to get me, in fear of being jumped I carried a small Stanly knife about 10cm long.

As I usually walk with my hands in my pockets, especially in winter, I formed a habit of holding it and pushing the blade out on my pocket. This made me prepared for what could happen.

This would not have had much use in a fight but a few quick slashes if I was in trouble could deter my attacker (or so I think).

If I had a wide selection of weapons and needed to carry one for safety I would choose a concealed flick knife with a blade around 8cm long.

[Dank$taVegas]

I have no real need to carry a weapon most of the time, as I live out in the boonies (country) but when I'm out in the bush (Camping, 4x4ing, hiking) I carry either one of my Taurus Tracker series a .41 Magnum or .357 Magnum.

When I'm out hunting depending on the game I'm after I always take my .357 magnum straped to my hip for the extra stopping power accompanied with…..

Duck/Birds- Mossberg 500 magazine fed, manually operated (pump action) I did want to get this model with the factory pistol grips & the short barrel "Cruisers" as they are known as, but due to the fact they are banned (Illegal) in Canada I had to settle for a normal styled shotgun.
I have pondered the idea about picking up a cheap Mossberg 500 series and modifying the stock and barrel into a "Cruiser" but the risks of getting caught with one of these is too great a risk for me.

Deer -Ed Brown Custom Model 702 in the .300 WMS Caliber. This is the best deer rifle out there, at least in my eyes. For the $3500 USD price tag she is very nice.

Bear/Moose & Elk- Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin, some say its over kill, but there is a difference between hunting a bear & Preventing the escape of a wounded bear or stopping an attack.

These are just my favorite pick of my selection of guns I own…. You wouldn't catch me walking down a street with anything like this thought. I try to keep my self clean most of the time. I do carry my .41 magnum in the glove box of my jeep under lock and key when I'm out and about.

So I guess to answer your question for defense I carry either a .41 Magnum or a .357 Magnum. Also I usually have one of my dogs with me, who I conceder a weapon, ones a 4year old male Doberman Pinscher Trained and titled with a SCH III (FH FHI-Tracking) IPO III, 3 year old female Doberman Pinscher with a SCH II (FH) IPO II (working on getting my SCH III & IPO III some time this summer with her). So they are both well trained attack/Guard/Tracking & companion dogs. So if I ever need someone to watch my back I don't have to look too far. Both the dogs were trained my me & are both handled my myself.

[Sausagemit]

I did want to get this model with the factory pistol grips & the short barrel "Cruisers" as they are known as, but due to the fact they are banned (Illegal) in Canada I had to settle for a normal styled shotgun.


What about top folding stocks (http://www.atigunstocks.com/items/TFS0600.html). Are they illegal in Canada?

I also have a Mossberg 500c (20ga) and I bought a top folding stock with a pistol grip and a 18 1/2 inch barrel for. I have to say, it's really fun to shoot slugs out of and you feel like a badass doing so. And if you shoot it one handed with heavy enough shells it opens the breach and ejects the shell. One quick jerk in the downward direction and your ready to rock and roll again. Theoreticly you could have one in each hand and never miss a beat!!!

I don't live in a bad neighborhood or anywhere close to one for that matter. But when i do go into a big city I allways have my Ka-Bar (https://www.kabar.com/product_detail.jsp?productNumber=1212&mode=category&categoryId=1,2,3,7&categoryName=Military/Tactical) with me in my car and sometimes my Ruger Mark II .22 target pistol (gov model with the bull barrel). Which doesn't have even close to the stopping power of a 9mm but you can pump em full of so much lead so fast that they won't even know what hit them. You can fire 10 shots in under 4 seconds and and hit center mass with every shot at 25-35 ft away.

And if things get too out of hand I allways have my AK-47 :D .

[Dank$taVegas]

What about top folding stocks. Are they illegal in Canada?


Now I'm very disappointed.... I'm hurt the gun dealer I obtained my gun from neglected to mention this... From what I have read, they seem to fall into the "Restricted Firearm" category. I for one have never seen one at a gun show/swap meet, gun shop, or at the range. I'm going to have to look into this a little more and see what I can find out.

The Mossberg 500 is an awesome shot gun, one of my best ones, hence why I listed that one in the post. and none of the others.. The rest just collect dust in the safe.
I'd trade the Mossberg 500 for a Franchi SPAS 12 shotgun #3 on Canada's Prohibited list... Hell I'd own one if I ever got the chance to buy it! That's one of the best shotties out there in my eyes. well not that good for what I use the Mossberg for the SPAS 12 is more of a tactical shotgun
n. :D

Here is a list of Prohibited Shotguns in Canada.

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 11
3. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS 12 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Franchi LAW 12 shotgun.
4. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Striker shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Striker 12 shotgun and the Streetsweeper shotgun.
5. The firearm of the design commonly known as the USAS-12 Auto Shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
6. The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
7. The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Benelli M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli M3 Super 90 shotgun, and any variants or modified versions of them, with the exception of the
(a) M1 Super 90 Field;
(b) M1 Super 90 Sporting Special;
(c) Montefeltro Super 90;
(d) Montefeltro Super 90 Standard Hunter;
(e) Montefeltro Super 90 Left Hand;
(f) Montefeltro Super 90 Turkey;
(g) Montefeltro Super 90 Uplander;
(h) Montefeltro Super 90 Slug;
(i) Montefeltro Super 90 20 Gauge;
(j) Black Eagle;
(k) Black Eagle Limited Edition;
(l) Black Eagle Competition;
(m) Black Eagle Slug Gun;
(n) Super Black Eagle; and
(o) Super Black Eagle Custom Slug.
8. The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Bernardelli B4 shotgun and the Bernardelli B4/B shotgun, and any variants or modified versions of them.
There are some loop holes that people may take to collect these kind of gun, but for the average person it's not very likely, and all the paper work that is involved, the rights you wave in order to have the right to own this type of gun (no knock searches etc)

And if things get too out of hand I allways have my AK-47
Sweet!!! Guess you would not be moving to Canada, if you do you will have to get rid of that one order #13 #64
Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13
64. The firearm of the design commonly known as the AK-47 rifle, and any variant or modified version of it except for the Valmet Hunter, the Valmet Hunter Auto and the Valmet M78 rifles, but including the
Every other Ak related gun except the ones listed above. :mad:

I never really noticed how strict Canada is with "Gun Control" untill I was searching this site for another post... Kind of makes me sick to look at hundreds of guns that are banned here in Canada.:(

Quotes taken from:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/SOR-98-462/82866.html#rid-82885

[Sausagemit]

I doesn't look like ATI top folding stocks are banned, check this out.

http://www.marstar.ca/ac-ATI/ATI-shotgun.shtm

Quite a bit more expensive then here in the states (about $30-$40 more after the exchange rate) but still purchaseable by a normal person.

A short barrel might be hard to come by in Canada but there is a solution!! Get a cheap barrell and a hacksaw. And allways carry it with your long barrel on it and the sawed-off one in the same case. I don't think they can do anything about that seeing as how shotgun barrels are not serialized. You can say it's just a piece of pipe and nothing more. Then when you want to shoot it with the short barrel just swap em out.

Is yours pluged (limited to three shells)?

[Jacks Complete]

I doubt any cop is dumb enough to believe that the 12g pipe in your shotgun bag is a pipe and nothing more, since it will have both lugs and threading, as well as gunshot residue inside it. Think before you post such things.

As regards moaning about Canadian firearms banning specific firearms, that's the best way! (from our point of view) You build your own, and it is legal. The UK simply defines everything as broadly as possible, and that is that. Banned with no exceptions and no ways around it.

[Sausagemit]

I doubt any cop is dumb enough to believe that the 12g pipe in your shotgun bag is a pipe and nothing more, since it will have both lugs and threading, as well as gunshot residue inside it. Think before you post such things.

Whoops, forgot about the smokeless powder residue. I would suppose if they found powder residue in there they could link it to the gun and say that you have been using it.

But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe. Because most all shotgun barrels don't have rifling and are thus non-serialized. So it's not gun specific or registerable.

Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel. If you buy just a barrel for a gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm. And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US).

Seeing as how most of them don't have rifling, they are not registerable and does not require a FFL to sell or receive a non-rifled shotgun barrel and when not attached to the gun is just a pipe. There is not a thing a cop can do except get mad and detain you while they look for matching powder residue in the "pipe" and breach.

At least that’s how it works in the US.

The only problem with sawing the end off of a shotgun barrel is it doesn't have a choke or threads to put one in, giving you a very wide patern and thus not as effective over longer distances and also can create an erratic pattern. And a shorter barrel will affect your range too. I have a full choke on my 18 1/2 inch barrel and it spreads more than the improved cylinder choke I currently have on my 26 in barrel.

And also, a Mossberg 500 with a top folding stock and an 18 1/2 in barrel is 26 1/2 in long, making it a restricted firearm in Canada. So as long as you have the proper license, you can make your own no problem.

[Dank$taVegas]

Is yours pluged (limited to three shells)?
Yes it is, 4 one in the chamber. ;)

And also, a Mossberg 500 with a top folding stock and an 18 1/2 in barrel is 26 1/2 in long, making it a restricted firearm in Canada. So as long as you have the proper license, you can make your own no problem.
I don't believe making your own with the use of a hacksaw is legal in Canada... Even if you have a "Restricted License".. Modifying any type of gun with a hack saw be it stock or barrel is highly illegal in Canada if your caught. I could order a shorter barrel and keep it legal but not by hacking it off with a hack saw..

My barrel is a 28" version and for what I use it for works wonders, and would be a waste to modify.
And surly if you were pulled over by a cop with a sawed off barrel in the same case as the shotgun he would put 2 and 2 together, and I'm sure they would find something to charge you with. That would most likely lead to the offender losing his gun licenses & all his guns etc.

For me if I want to get a shorter barrel and a folding stock I might as well do it the legal way and spend the $$$ & fill out all the paper work. Better than lossing all my shit for some stupid reason.

Seeing as how most of them don't have rifling, they are not registerable and does not require a FFL to sell or receive a non-rifled shotgun barrel and when not attached to the gun is just a pipe.
But when you register a gun, you have to fill out all the specifics of the gun, i.e.: Barrel length etc. Not sure about in the U.S and other Countries though.

You build your own, and it is legal

What do you mean...If you don't get caught?

I was reading on that website about gun laws here in Canada, and was shocked to find out you can be charged if your caught making a Receiver for a gun, and you haven't filled out the proper paper work.

[gunsmoke]

For personal protection I carry a S&W model 60 .38 in a ankle rig or a Kel Tec P3at 380 Keep a springfield Xp 9mm in the car

[Cobalt.45]

Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel. If you buy just a barrel for a gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm. And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US)
Is this a state law? IIRC, barreled actions and receivers require an FFL. Frames, stocks, barrels are non- FFL items. None of my weapons have serialized barrels, although two do have the last three digits of the S/N to show that the gun is assembled with its original parts.

There always seems to be exceptions to the rule, this is why I ask.

[minty]

I usually carry a switch blade in my back pocket, but most of the time I carry a baseball bat and say I have baseball practice. Baseball bats work wonders.

[Docca]

There always seems to be exceptions to the rule, this is why I ask.

Sausagemit is the exception to the rule, I predict he's going to have about the half life of I-133 on this forum. He's already been advised by a moderator to "think before he posts", and less than 24 hours later he's spewing misinformation...


But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe

Wrong. BATF treats possession of a short barrel and a weapon it will fit as "intent to manufacture", and they will prosecute.


Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel

Wrong. Precious few barrels have serial numbers - Mostly high end stuff. Some have part numbers, some have drawing numbers, some may have markings to indicate who did the headspacing on it, very few have serial numbers.


If you buy just a barrel for a gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm

Wrong. There is no tracking of rifled barrels in the U.S.


And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US)

Wrong - Rifled barrels are perfectly legal to ship interstate U.S. They ship to residences in 50 states daily.


At least that’s how it works in the US

Wrong. Sausagemit hasn't a clue about U.S. federal gun laws.


If he keeps posting misinformation he's sure to be fed upon...

[TreverSlyFox]

Sausagemit,

Every firearm you buy that has rifling is registered by the serial number stamped on the barrel. If you buy just a barrel for a gun with rifling, it will go under your name as owning another firearm. And can't be shipped directly to your house (has to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer in the US).

Sorry, but this is NOT true. Under Federal Law the "Receiver" is the weapon and is the ONLY part of a weapon that is registered and must be transfered through an FFL holder in the U.S. on a Form 4473.

I have 3 "Parts Kits" sitting in my dinning room (entire weapons except the "receiver"). A Romanian AK-47 in 7.62x39, A STEN MKIII in 9x19 and an FN-FAL in 7.62x51. All were bought over the internet, without any "paperwork" and shipped directly to my home and all of them included "rifled barrels".

I also have a 1972 East German MAKAROV 9x18 Pistol that I bought a .380 barrel for over the internet that was shipped directly to my home. NONE of these purchases required an FFL or ANY paperwork.

You can even buy "receivers" over the internet, if they are 100% finished they must go through an FFL on a Form 4473. But if they are 80% receivers (machine work must still be finished and/or holes drilled) they can be bought and shipped directly to you without ANY paperwork involved.

You can buy receiver "flats" (You have to bend them, rivet, weld or screw them togeather and heat treat the holes) for the AK-47/AK-74 from TAPCO for $14.95 with rails.

The "receiver" for a STEN MKI through MKV is nothing more than seamless tubing about 18" long with some slots cut in it and the "old" magazine well and trigger housing welded over a couple of the "holes", the barrel and trunion riveted or welded in place and the "end cap" mounted. The proper tubing can be purchased that has a "cutting template" glued on the tubing over the internet.

Currently you can purchase Parts Kits and 80% receivers for: M-16/M-4/AR-15, FN-FAL (both metric and inch type), AK-47/AK-74/PSL/Dragunov, M-14/M1A1, STEN MK I, II, III, IV, V and Sterling, 1911/1911A1, Sig 220, 225, 226 and 229, M-1919A1-4, M2HB, M-60, PPSH, UZI, Thompson 1928A1, French MAS-38, and VZ-58. These are the "Parts Kits" and 80% "receivers" that I've run across, there may well be more out there that can be purchased and sent directly to your home in the U.S.

[Jacks Complete]

Sausage, I'm not going to ban you, I'll leave it down to NBK to see if he thinks you are too dumb to live. It doesn't look good, though.

Everyone else, thank you for clearing up the true state of US spare barrel law. I'm now very jealous! Over here, a spare barrel has to be listed on FAC as a new gun, and you have to argue a whole lot to get two of the same calibre now, plus pay a fee to have it added. I so want to emigrate!

[Dank$taVegas]

Sorry, but this is NOT true. Under Federal Law the "Receiver" is the weapon
I have been to many E&W site on the internet (most were a waste of my time) and on many of these places I have been told that a Receiver was not considered a weapon and did not need to be registered and things like; if you get caught making a receiver or if you get caught with a receiver just say it's for a toy etc; but that was far from the truth. After reading and inquiring about this on the Canada Fire Arms Center's page & phone line, it is conceded a weapon and must be registered along with any barrel (Canadian Laws/Not sure about other countries); they must also be shipped to a licensed dealer for pick up. All other components of a gun are not classified as a weapon (here in Canada) and there is no need to declare or register them and they can be shipped directly to you place of residents.

This is one thing I really like about this site and I'll say it again, all the knowledgeable people who step up and try to provide the correct information for all the forum member. This is what makes this place such a good place to gather your information.

On another note, I'm sure the U.S and other countries have a official website that can be searched for, that will contain all the correct information about Firearm laws etc.. I'll do a search later today and post my findings for the U.S & the U.K, if anyone needs any other countries let me know or post links. These pages are usually very informative and very useful to anyone who is interested in firearms & firearms laws for their country or other countries.

Is this a state law?
I'm no expert with the U.S gun laws not even with Canadian gun laws, but here in Canada some provinces have more laws restricting different aspects of gun laws.. So it is possible (?) that a barrel will need to be registered in certain states...

Well you guys from the U.S with all your fancy guns and toys are making me very jealous too. I wish I had 3 parts kits sitting on my dinning room table. :p

[Sausagemit]

I'm sorry about the gross misinformation that I presented earlier but I was told this information by a local FFL dealer (a friend) who only has his FFL license so he can engrave guns. I realize now that it was probably not the best source of information.

And this misinformation was further compounded by the fact that the only SN on my Ruger Mark II is on the barrel and you have to have a FFL to receive a barrel for this gun and you have to register it as another firearm. And from what I can tell it's one of the few firearms that you have to do that with. (Edit: It has a barreled action, which Cobalt .45 mentioned eirler as requireing a FFL to recieve)

Ruger MkII replacement top end (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=13858)

But on a Ruger MkII, the barrel also contains the entirety of the action/breach/bolt. And the receiver is completely separate and does not require a FFL to obtain or sell.

TreverSlyFox, what model of Romanian AKM-47 do you own/are currently building. Because I currently own an SAR-1 and I absolutely love the thing. It's extremely reliable, has little or no triggerslap with the stock disconnector/fire control group, AK furniture will bolt right on, and it's actually quite accurate for an AK variant.

[Cobalt.45]

But on a Ruger MkII, the barrel also contains the entirety of the action/breach/bolt. And the receiver is completely separate and does not require a FFL to obtain or sell.

The barreled receiver is the only FFL required part of the gun. Are you confusing the grip frame with the receiver? The grip frame isn't an FFL part, receiver/ barrel IS.

The Ruger Mk II, as well as all the Mk series pistols are VERY simple weapons. That's not to say they are low quality, but "one of the most complicated handguns out there"?


I hope this serves to clarify things a little. But somehow, I doubt it will.

[Sausagemit]

The Ruger Mk II, as well as all the Mk series pistols are VERY simple weapons.

Have you ever taken one completely apart and put one back together? If you do you better spare yourself a couple of hours and a very large headache.

Yes it is a fairly simple handgun in pricipal, but once you start taking it apart it becomes a whole different story. That's what I was referring too as being complicated.

Without two or three weeks to play with the jigsaw puzzle of parts lying before me, I handed the remaining pieces to Marc and said, "Have fun." Having managed his own custom shop, Marc has assisted more than a few customers who entered his shop with a bag full of MKII parts . . . he’s become quite an expert putting the little target guns back together.

As quoted from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=495) website

And also check out this (http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/field_strip.htm) and this (http://www.1bad69.com/ruger/internals.htm) website for a complete teardown and rebuild!!

The grip housing holds the sear, hammer, and the trigger and can function independently of the bolt and barrel and can still function as a firearm, so wouldn't it be by a normal gun definition as the receiver? Nope, not for guns with barreled actions. I might as well just shoot myself in the foot so NBK can smell the blood and find me easier.

I am not having a good day, or week for that matter. I will put myself in timeout for a couple of weeks and return hopefully without the stupidity that you guys/girls have seen here in the past couple of days.

[Docca]

I am not having a good day, or week for that matter. I will put myself in timeout for a couple of weeks and return hopefully without the stupidity that you guys/girls have seen here in the past couple of days.

Ok, I submitted a reply to Cobalt.45's first post before TreverSlyFox's first post, ramming Sausagemit for "spewing misinformation". I'm not complaining about the moderation here, I just no longer want to have that posted after most of his mistakes have been pointed out, and apologies and explanations have been handed out.

I, for one, was not aware that Ruger MK2s had the serial number on the barrel. I've shot them, cleaned them, but I don't own one so I'm not an expert on those. I'm mostly a rifle guy.

If you do you better spare yourself a couple of hours and a very large headache.
This is true. You'll probably be needing the manual to get it apart and to put it back together - I did.


All of this is not to excuse his misinformation (the mods know I slammed him immediately), but in consideration of the apology and explanations offered, Sausagemit might turn out ok (if he stops parroting misinformation).


The only thing I addressed in my first post that has yet to be addressed here:

But if it's not attached to the gun it is just a pipe.

Wrong. In the U.S. it's commonly prosecuted as "intent to manufacture" (that is, if the barrel is shorter than 16"). It's a federal felony.


To measure the BATF way - Cut a 16' wooden dowel, close the bolt on an empty chamber. If the dowel can not be concealed in the barrel you'd better have some approved federal paperwork.

[nbk2000]

Docca, you forgot to mention what parts of the barrel are considered 'barrel' by BATF.

Does the flash hider count too? If not...you could have the dowel completely enclosed, but still be an inch short because of the flash hider, thus constituting an illegal short rifle.

Look what they did to Randy Weaver over half an inch. :mad:

[2112]

Any permanent attachments to the end of the barrel like a flash suppressor or muzzle brake would count toward the total length of the barrel, but also, do not forget that a rifle also has a minimum overall length. Here are two links:

ATF response to making a short riffle (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter56.txt)

Ruling on what constitutes part of the barrel length (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/rr_55570.txt)

[Cobalt.45]

Without two or three weeks to play with the jigsaw puzzle of parts lying before me, I handed the remaining pieces to Marc and said, "Have fun." Having managed his own custom shop, Marc has assisted more than a few customers who entered his shop with a bag full of MKII parts . . . he’s become quite an expert putting the little target guns back together.

This assessment of the "complexity" of the Mk II is nothing short of ridiculous! Hell, give a decent 'smith that long and he'll whittle you one from billet.

I admit that it's been years since I've had the occasion to handle a Ruger .22, and it was a Mk I. However, we are talking of the same basic gun. Just because it might look daunting to you, all those itsy- bitsy stamped parts and all, it is a simple gun. Or, should I say, "It's simply a gun"?

If I couldn't tear that thing to it's last piece and reassemble it (as could ANY gun hobbyist with experience) in an hour- at the outside- I'd hang up my Cerrosafe and my headspace gages and go sit in the corner!

The grip housing holds the sear, hammer, and the trigger and can function independently of the bolt and barrel and can still function as a firearm, so wouldn't it be by a normal gun definition as the receiver? Again, quoted from Sausagemit

How is it gonna "still function as a firearm" with no barreled receiver?

This isn't what I enjoy, all this back and forth shit that seemingly has no end. This is my last post on the subject.

[Jacks Complete]

It's the same in the UK, you count any permanent attachments as part of the barrel length. The limit here for a shotgun is 24" and for it not to be a (banned) pistol it must be over 30cm barrel length and 60cm overall. This has lead to a court case regarding barrel shrouds, etc. which was resolved to allow them if they were permantly attached.

One option is obvious, (Google cache) http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.donsroom.co.uk/~feek/shooting/taurus/lbr_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.practicalpistoluk.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php%3FCat%3D%26Number%3D6032%26Main%3D599 6&h=230&w=600&sz=60&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=dXHgms5NkoHKBM:&tbnh=50&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlong%2Bbarreled%2Bpistol%2Buk%26svnum %3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
which is just a really long barreled revolver. The other is less gun-looking, http://www.targetshooting.ca/graphics/equip-guns/pardini/pardini_uk_fp.jpg

[EOD]

I have no need to carry a weapon but I exercise my right to carry on every day. I usually have a Colt 1991A1 Compact.

[tmp]

This is the definition I found on the Government Printing Office's website
defining what is an NFA weapon as of April 1, 2006:

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18
inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not
include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or
destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director
finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be
used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the
barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be
determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of
the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or
rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured
along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Hope this helps.

[Docca]

Docca, you forgot to mention what parts of the barrel are considered 'barrel' by BATF

This is true. I failed to completely document there, mostly because I was more immediately interested in refuting bad info than giving out instructions.


Looks like 2112 covered me there, but just to ensure everything is painfully clear...

A muzzle brake or flash hider, if permenantly attached by silver solder (or something more permanent) counts toward the total length. Loc-Tited screw-on flash hiders do not satisfy U.S. requirements.


tmp's reference is very good - It's been so long since I thought about shortening a shotgun that I'd forgotten they have to be 18" in the U.S.

So for those keeping score (in the U.S.)... for rifles your barrel assembly must consume a 16" dowel (closed bolt), for shotguns it's an 18" dowel, AFAIK there are no barrel length requirements on pistols...


give a decent 'smith that long and he'll whittle you one from billet
Oh, pleeeeeease...


If I couldn't tear that thing to it's last piece and reassemble it (as could ANY gun hobbyist with experience) in an hour- at the outside- I'd hang up my Cerrosafe and my headspace gages and go sit in the corner!
If you can field strip it, thoroughly clean it, reassemble + lube it in an hour I've got a great mail order gun cleaning idea for you.

(it probably requires a federal license)...

[Tectonic]

I live in one of the best parts of my city, but I am a cyclist, and some of my routes lead me through or near the ghetto, or otherwise bad areas of town. Typically a group of niggers will give chase when I am riding my BMX for a little fun, as I can only get to about 15 MPH on it, so I bring my Ka Bar, positioned horozontally on my belt. :)

Usually I can draw it and just scare them, sometimes I have had to use it though. Once upon a time, I was riding minding my own business, and a nigger came up to me demanding my bike. Came at me like a train, I pulled my knife and his dumbass ran into it and began screaming, that's when I left the scene. No sense in helping the nigger. :D

On my road bike though, I don't need it but I bring it anyway, I can usually reach speeds of 32 MPH on flats.. Downhill as much as 50 and 60 sometimes. :eek:

Rarely do I need to use it. Though, there are times when it comes it handy, and I'm prepared to use it. Once I am 21, I'll be carrying a Springfield .45 ACP XD. :cool:

[Isotoxin]

I used to carry a Kershaw Blackout at 6oclock on my belt but I used the blade to pry:rolleyes: and now it is no good(obviously)

So I have taken to carrying a small carabiner that is a LED flashlight and practicing a simple "flash and punch" drill that I think would be somewhat effective. I don't go into bad areas so this is fine I think.

I am thinking about using NBK's idea of wearing or sewing kevlar sleeves into some of my shirts for slash protection. What would be even better would be to try and make some of that "liquid armor"(shear hardening liquid) and then inpregnated the sleeves with that and case it in shrinkwrap for stabbing and slashing protection(and perhaps even impact to the elbows and forarm)

Watch your 6!

[30yearstoolate!]

My home defense weapon is a four foot length of shovel handle that I discovered in my closet when I moved into my apartment.

My semi-concealed portable defense is a M-Tech tactical folder. The blade is roughly four inches and has been honed razor sharp. [The knife can shave the hair off my arm.]

Also in my apartment I have a .22 caliber pellet rifle for detering vermin near the garbage cans behind the building. It will blow clean through a large rat at 15 yards. I have also used it to kill a raccoon with a headshot. It pierced the skull at 5 yards. The raccoon twitched and writhed for a moment before I killed it with the walnut stock. I like a tough stock.

Tecktonic, what does a Springfield .45 ACP XD have for groups at roughly fifty yards?

[rollinground]

I live in england and were not allowed to carry weapons for self defense.

See england is suppose to be a safe place, and if we get into trouble the police will help!! So if I carried anyting at all and was stopped and asked why I had it and I said for self defense I would be breaking the law. We are allowed horns to scare of attackers and thats about it.

So heres my experiance in my teenage years of not needing to carry any sort of self defense weapon and the police always helping at the right time ;)

I had my first gun pulled on me when I was only 14 - I was trying to be robbed, I was stabbed at 15, beaten by 20 people with bats, glasses and whatever else they had to hand at the age of 16 for no reason except they were drunk and wanted a fight, a friend was stabbed and it got him in the liver when we were 16, he was serioulsy ill and could have died.

I was beaten over the head with a ash tray at 17, glassed again at 18, glassed 3 times at 19.

I was pepper sprayed whilst trying to help a friend who was fighting 4 big blokes who set upon him for knocking into one of them and spilling their drink, had two occasions when had knifes pulled on me in fights at 19.

At 20 I didnt get any serious injurys, but I had several friends who did, two were hospitalised after a fight, started out 3 of us against 6 of them fist on fist they ended up worse off. 10 minutes later about 15 more of them turned up with knifes and bottles and my other two mates got beaten and bottled very badly they were both out cold and were then had their heads stamped on, they were put in hospital.

This took place in a bar with loads of witnesses and out of all these incidents is the only one that went to court. The police didnt show up until we were at the hospital.

A girl I was with was trying to break a fight up between us and some drunks and she got glassed.

A friends cousin got shot dead with a shotgun.

Im forever hearing stories about so n so getting stabbed beaten and even the occasional kidnap.

So sorry for the autobiography but I think the point is quite clear, the world is not a safe place, and the UK is not safer due to the law not allowing citizens to own weapons for self defense. I would say its far more dangerous, if people thought that the person they were about to attack for no reason may be armed they might think twice about setting upon them for fun.

The police have never done anything except try to arrest us for fighting when we were defeding ourselves. I dont see why we as a nation should be told to have faith in the police and not be allowed to do anything to protect ourselves or family. If you are found to be carrying a knife you will be arrested, if you are carrying a gun you will get a minimum 5 year sentance.

We are suppose to be a free society but we cant even legally protect ourselves, the country is very fucked up.

Anyway, if I COULD carry a weapon I would carry a berreta tom/bobcat, model 950 or cheeta.

I love the little berreta pocket pistols with the tip up barrels.

+++++++=

Your grammar is painful to behold. I corrected your i/I failure, but rapid improvement is your only hope of survival. NBK

[Jacks Complete]

Rollinground tells it like it is. Sadly.

We must be protected to death, even from ourselves! How did the country that spawned Churchill and so many other great men wind up being run into the ground so rapidly by the police and Tony BLiar?

[nbk2000]

Decades of being programmed into docile sheep has been effective.

[festergrump]

I love the little berreta pocket pistols with the tip up barrels.

I've had two of these little gems in my day and both were very nice little "web-ripper" "pocket guns". One chambered the .22LR and the other .25 ACP. Despite the size of the pistols, both were very high quality, and never had a jam from either... unlike many other like-sized versions of the "bellygun" or "closet pistol" versions I've owned.

The tip-barrel feature makes bore cleaning a breeze. Small pricetag and quality of manufacture leads me to give them from experience an A+. ;)

As for the shitty laws regarding our English brother's firearm or defense weapon carry, I am appalled and saddened by this. America, beware... this is your future if the government is left unchecked and unhindered! Vote with a ballot today, perhaps a bullet tommorrow!
--------------------------------------------------------
FG's Definitions:

POCKET GUN: A firearm small enough to comfortably fit concealed inside the rear pocket of one's denim jeans.
WEB-RIPPER: A pistol too small for the average hand to hold comfortably, thus usually resulting in the slide recoiling into the fleshy webbing of the hand between thumb and forefinger, much cursing, and finally a bandage wrap.
BELLYGUN: A small handgun with accuracy not much beyond thrusting the muzzle into an opponent's belly and firing.
CLOSET PISTOL: A small pistol with acceptable accuracy so long as target and shooter are both confined within the same closet space.

[Edit: Redundancy and spelling]

[rollinground]

I was reading through some old shooting magazines the other day from 1985-1988, and I serioulsy find it hard to believe that they were published in britian, everyone seemed to have the mentality of the right to keep and bear arms, and a true love of the sport of shooting. The contrast in todays magazines in amazing. Somewhere along the line in the last 20 years the majority of britain has lost its way. It has become a nanny state where the majority of the public dont feel safe and rely on the powers of the goverment to sort all the problems this country has.

20 years ago gun crime was practically non-existant compared with today, since handguns have been outlawed the shootings and violence in general has shot through the roof, we are living in a much more dangerous society now than ever and disarming the general public isnt helping obvioulsy, they still keep on though, they want to licence airguns, ban all replicas and deactivated guns, it is ridiculous that they cant see that this hasnt and never will help, the violence and crime is going to get much worse before it gets better.

There is nowhere that I have been to in the whole world that I feel more unsafe than I do in englands citys. And im suppose to call this country home!

Home gives me images of warmth and security! Instead my home(country) is full of paranoia and violence.


Sorry about the bad grammar, Nbk thanks for taking the time to clean my post up, I will read through my posts more thoroughly before posting. I want to keep the place looking nice to, this is the only mature forum of the kind and I'm very thankful to be a member. I'm slightly dyslexic so I do sometimes get words a bit mixed up but I will try my best to keep it neat.

[A.C.E.]

The country I live in has roughly the same rules as the UK has. Here you will actually end up in police records (meaning you will most likely never be allowed to work with anything more interesting than cleaning sewage drains) for carrying any type of knife in a public place. Using it on someone, self defense or otherwise, is likely to put you in jail or making you pay some serious fines for something similar to "assault with deadly weapon".

Tasers, OC sprays and so forth are banned and should the pigs find it in your possession, then you're in for serious trouble.

Of course you still have to defend yourself. The trick is to have low profile weapons that won't arouse suspicion if you are cought with them. I carry a small folding knife (walther tactical knife II). It can be opened with one hand and the blade has a tapered point so it could be used for stabbing if neccecary. The edge is partially serrated so it works decently (for a folding knife) to slash with as well.

I also carry a wooden fist enhancer, it makes the fist incredibly hard and sticks out a little bit from the fist so the ends can be used for hitting harder parts of the body as well. A small tap on the temple will end fight very fast.

The main reason for chosing the knife is that I most likely could get away with carrying it, a small folding knife doesn't look as bad as beeing cought with as a boot knife or hunting knife. The second reason is that it was cheap and should I need no get rid of it I'll simply throw it away and buy a new one.

[Bugger]

In New Zealand, one can be fined for "carrying an offensive weapon in a public place", be it an unenclosed firearm, an airgun, a knife, a sword (these either of a type suitable for combat, or under circumstances indicating an intention to use it as a weapon), a broken bottle, or a long piece of wood or metal clearly intended to be used as a clubbing weapon.

In addition, there are firearm-specific offenses such as "presenting a firearm", "discharging a firearm in a public place without lawful excuse", and "unlawfully possessing a firearm or ammunition or explosives without the appropriate grade of firearms or dangerous goods license".

These are usually dealt with under either the Summary Offenses Act or Arms Act, and attract moderately severe fines, or in some cases non-custodial community sentences. More serious offenses, such as "assault with a weapon with intent to injure", "threatening to kill", "careless use of a firearm causing injury or death", and of course murder/manslaughter, are usually Crimes Act offenses and usually attract jail sentences.

People aged over 16 in N.Z. can legally own an airgun without any licensing, and licences to possess sporting shotguns (for hunting ducks etc.) are fairly easily obtainable. Licenses to possess rifles suitable for killing livestock on farms, deerstalking, or for predator or vermin control (mostly in rural areas, for wildcats, wild dogs, opossums, stoats, etc.) are slightly harder to obtain.

But it is much harder to obtain a pistol license (a pistol being defined as any firearm with a barrel shorter than 30 cm), except by being either a registered member of an approved pistol shooting club (which takes custody of the pistols when not in use), or a dealer, or an antique arms collector. In all cases, license-holders have to also possess approved secure gun-cabinets for storing firearms when not in use.

[Chaosmark]

Back to the original question, I don't actually carry a weapon in the sense that I use it for self defense, but I do carry a pocket knife, simply as a tool in case I need it.

In contrast, I have enough martial arts training that for the most part, I AM a weapon. It's served me well so far, and I've been in enough scuffles to establish myself as a target that fights back. They don't consider me worth the trouble anymore, so I get left alone. And that's the ultimate point of self defense, isn't it?

Though it IS rather funny to see them sulking off with the best shiners I've ever seen. :D

[Jome skanish]

Usually I wouldn't carry a weapon, but since some idiots decided to visit and make threats to my brother last week Im now carrying a stupid eight-inch maglite-type flashlight that I'd use as a kubotan. Obviously this weapon sucks, but since everything is illegal in this country... There were four of the idiots and they were carrying stilette knives.

If they're dumb enough to visit this house again it'll be a bit different since I've taped a 40cm (16 inches) rockwoll-knife to a 160cm (63 inch) broomstick to make a spear. The range of the weapon would fuck them or, as Im hoping, scare them away.
I love the rockwool-knife. It just says "cut the tall (or in this case dark) trees down"

Martial arts can be useful, but not against knives. It takes years of intensive training to even stand a chance, all those "kick the knife off" or "grab the arm" is just bullshit. Run like hell and pick up a rock along the way.

[anonymous411]

I couldn't be more pro-Second Amendment if I tried, but all the same, it's important not to let carrying a weapon lull you into smug complacency and a false sense of security. Situational awareness is everything. What good is your weapon when you never even saw it coming? Anytime you feel like an invincible super badass, quietly pause to reflect on the phrase "300 yards in the back" as a memento mori.

Personally, I carry nothing more than a well-sharpened 4 3/8 inch Alpineer Swiss Army knife. Why? Because from the psychological perspective of the average person, "Swiss Army Knife" equals "totally harmless". So much so, that once when I was once searched for weapons, they never even bothered taking it away from me. That's right, I had a 4 3/8 inch knife, and they barely even looked twice. Something to consider the next time it's to your advantage to pass for a squeaky-clean "solid citizen".

SWISS ARMY ALPINEER
http://www.minitools.co.uk/products/victorinox/images/alpineer.jpg

[c.Tech]

Many of you would probably already know of this weapon but I thought I should post it here.

It's an easy, extremely improvised weapon made from paper in under 30 seconds.

First roll up a section of the newspaper, a few A3 sheets of paper or other source into a flat roll about 4cm in width and 40cm in length. Next fold both ends towards each other until they meet. When the end tightens up it will be, or at least feel like, as hard as wood.

With training a blow to the temple could be deadly, I'm going to practice using this weapon for future self-defence.

You could just say to pigs that you rolled up paper so it would fit in your pocket (it fits perfectly :)).

[Misanthropologist]

I live in the US, in a small town in North Carolina. Although it is technically legal to carry weapons for my personal defense, the police here are keen on harassment of individuals intent on putting their rights into practice. As a teenager, I used to hang out at a house that happened to be raided by swine on a generally biweekly basis.

Now, besides the usual underage drinking and occasional surfacing of a controlled substance, nothing ever came of these raids(besides some knowledge gained on the techniques involved). It took me awhile, for some reason, to figure out the real reason for these raids-I'll keep that out here, I may go into a rather lengthy rant. Those people who hung out there, myself included, were subjected to illegal searches, personal property was "confiscated" for no reason, I was even held illegally in the county jail(If your under 16, they arent supposed to hold you overnight-they held me 3 days).

At the time I was having pretty serious problems with some ignorant rednecks, so kept a knife close by at all times. Most of those were "confiscated". My point is, I learnt to carry weapons that can't really be called weapons until used as such. Some are disguised as "fashion accessories"-my belt for awhile was a length of thick chain attached with a heavy padlock, the key left in. Some just seem like the other seemingly random objects I always carry on me- an iron bar about 4 inches long for use as a fist brace/weight, probably too heavy for hitting someones face, you'll break your hand, hit the ribs. I always wear my Legionaires coat, the wool is thick enough to deflect many slashing weapons and i've learnt to stand in a way that makes it a shield against bludgeoning/punching. I wear hard-soled boots. Some of the other random items in my pockets are for use as missile weapons-a short tube can really sling a ball bearing, and surprises the shit out of the belligerent redneck fucker trying to start a fight, you have to practice your aim though, and not have any compunctions against "dirty fighting". I think I'm paranoid sometimes, but ive had to use these and other similar items more than once and they seem effective enough.

[BeerWolf]

I legally carry a concealed .45 ParaOrdinance pistol as the norm. In the summer, I sometimes carry a Makarov in .380, as it conceals better under light clothing. My jeep has a 12 gauge Mossberg for more serious work.

I feel sorry for you poor guys in England. Come on over. A lot of stuff sucks here, but I get the impression it sucks a lot worse in the EU.

I have a Ruger mark II on the table in front of me. The serial # is stamped on the tubular receiver, NOT the barrel.

I just finished detail stripping it, and gave it a good clean. 14 minutes to strip and inspect, 10 to clean, 16 to oil it and put it back together. Including drying time, and extra oiling time (it's going into storage for a bit) 1 hour, 10 min, while eating lunch.

A routine field strip and clean takes me about 25min on the average.

Only thing I have that cleans easier is the Makarov. Worst is my FN-Fal.
-BW
(edited for spelling)

[Lewis]

I live in a fairly rough town, but I realize that our local gang members don't fight fair, so it dosen't matter if you have a knife, because there will always be 5 of them, and they will all have knives/bats.

I think the best self defense methods are some basic martial arts, awarness of your surroundings, and most importiantly, traveling with a crew.

Generally you won't get fucked with if you're got 4 friends to back you up.

That being said, there are exceptions to this. A friend of mine was walking with friends a few blocks from my house at midnight and they all got jumped. He regained conciousness a week and a half later in the hospital, and others were injured as well.

The only weapons I have lying around my house for defence against break-ins is a short sword (ornamental, but sharp), a pellet gun, and a compound hunting bow.

[prisoner2187]

When I walk around my college campus i have a 100,000 volt tazer and a pair of handcuffs on me. I'm sure i have a knife somewhere, just a simple cheap but sharp folder.

When walking down the street, I sometimes feel comfortable carrying a butterfly (balisong) knife. I picked one up in mexico. Balisongs are unfortunately illegal to carry here in california.

Most of the time I dont really have an actual dedicated weapon on myself. If I feel the need, I can always use some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques or chokes. I like the idea of your attacker going unconscious and losing his bowels. That just makes me feel good inside to know how embarassed he would be, whilst seriously reconsidering who he messes with in the future.

Overall, the tazer and handcuffs are my favorite.

The ASP batons are nice, I had one in my car for a while, but it was broken into recently, and was stolen, along with my pockpicking kit and CD player. Since then, it has been my personal quest to look more carefully for burglars who deserve to be knocked out and handcuffed naked to a light pole for the day.

[nbk2000]

...along with my pockpicking kit...


Perhaps you should see a dermatologist about that skin problem, Baron. ;) :D

I've any number of videos showing fights where one guy gets another in a headlock, only to get kicked in the head numerous times by the choke'es friends.

Once you've latched onto someone to choke them, you've immobilized yourself, making you an easy target.

Rather than trying to fight 5 people, outrun them. Or, failing that, impair all of them first (pepperspray?) then take them out one-by-one.

If you're skilled and in good shape, one man can take on 5, but only one at a time.

[Czech Guy]

There has been a lot of talk of using a gun for self-defence; it is most likely the best weapon you could carry for self-defence, if you know how to use it. I am a gun owner but I choice not to carry a gun for these reasons. The first is that in Australia the laws are very strict on carry any weapons. Even the baton I carry would be illegal (so would things like pepper spay and other products). The next problem would be that the laws for defending yourself are also as strict and cause more harm then good. If I were to get caught using the baton for self I would get in deep for that if I was caught carrying a gun for self-defence I would face serious charges and since most of the violence is cause by “wannabee gangsters and hoods” that uses things like poles and large kitchen knives (that they by from a supermarket). So I have no real reason to carry a gun.

Since I made this post, I will tell you about what happen to me 3 days ago. I was walking from work and took the regular side street to get to the car park when this wannabee hood pulled a knife and told me to hand over my cash and mobile phone, so I reached for my baton (he thought I was reaching for my cash) and hit him right on the hand causing him to drop the knife , I than hit him on the head repetitively followed by a lighter hit to the throat . He than went down like a ton of bricks so I clubbed him with the baton (at this point I had gone well over the point of self-defence). He was really in a world of shit after the beating he took. I than kicked in the head once or twice and walked away as if nothing had happened. Maybe he will think twice before trying that again

[nbk2000]

Should have used the baton as a fulcrum for dislocating his shoulder or breaking his knee. Nothing like a cast and a limp for life to make one rethink the errors of ones way. ;)

Or use his own knife to cut his hamstrings. Not many muggers rolling around in wheelchairs. :D