new smoke comp.

[kingspaz]

right,
the other day i had an idea...

i beleive ammonium chloride is used in some smoke mixes due to the following reaction:

NH4Cl <=> NH3 + HCl

when heated in the mixture HCl and NH3 are given off but immediately after forming they react to form NH4Cl particles creating thick smoke.
anyways, i'm too lazy to make any NH4Cl so i thought why not add KClO3...

2KClO3 ---> 2KCl + 3O2

this providing the chloride anion to react with the ammonium nitrate...

2NH4NO3 + 2KCl ---> 2NH4Cl + 2KNO3 (heat)---> 2NH3 + 2HCl + K2O + 2O2 + N2O

thus overall,

2NH4NO3 + 2KClO3 (heat)---> 2NH3 + 2HCl + K2O + 5O2 + N2O

ahahahahahahhaha.....i MUST have made a few mistakes there!
i know, i know, 'never ever mix chlorates with ammonium salts or ammonium chlorate may form which is VERY unstable'

i started thinking about this...KClO3 is very insoluble. infact if a hot saturated solution of KClO3 is mixed with a hot saturated solution of NH4NO3 upon cooling KClO3 will crystalise out of the solution. now this means, even when damp, NH4NO3 + KClO3 cannot form NH4ClO3 as KClO3 is the least soluble ion combination. ClO3- being less soluble than NO3- and K+ beieng less soluble than NH4+ therefore preventing the crystalisation of NH4ClO3.

anyways, after considering this, i decided to make a 100g smoke mix test. the composition i used was straight out of my head so could probably be improved alot, or the correct ratios calculated. i would have done this but i didn't have enough time.
the composition was as follows by weight:

40% KClO3
30% NH4NO3
30% sucrose

the mixture was compacted into a card tube and ignited by a blackmatch fuse leading to a little H3 (hehe, i used a little to much... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). the tube measured 4cm in diameter and 11 cm in length, filled about 3/4 of the way with the mix.
i couldn't have the camera any further away from the smoke bomb because any further would have shown way too much house and surrounds, i feel it may do allready...
the wind decided to blow the smoke up and over the camera so it looks kinda shit. i can however assure you this seems a VERY promising compostion due to ease of manufacture and effectiveness. it burnt for around 55 seconds :D . filling my (big) garden, and the next
two gardens downwind :D :D :D

i don't advise anybody to make much of this mix, or store it as further testing NEEDS to be carried out.
links must be copied and pasted to the broswer window.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/smoke100g_kingspaz.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/smoke100g_kingspaz.JPG</a>

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/smoke100g_kingspaz.rm" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/smoke100g_kingspaz.rm</a>

i thought for my next test i will replace 10% of the sucrose for vaseline. this will protect the mixture from hygrosopicity making it storable, providing i am right about ammonium chlorate not forming. we will see....

[Polverone]

I tried to view those images but got blocked by angelfire, even when I copied + pasted the links into another browser window. So then I visited your homepage to look for links but I didn't see any. And, for the love of all that is holy, please consider changing the background of your web page so the text is actually readable!

[kvitekrist]

nice kingspaz!

that is a very good burntime for only 100g, and alot of smoke..
I wil try this soon.. I got the chemicals.

also i like the quality of your video :)

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

A very good idea, to use ammonium chloride in smoke compositions! I don't think the below reaction will occur, though:

NH4NO3 + KCl --> NH4Cl + KNO3

If you just mix a solution of NH4NO3 and a solution of KCl, then allow it to crystalize, you will end up with with KNH4ClNO3 (keep in mind formulas for ionic compounds are just ratios).

A decrease in solubility from the following reaction does not mean it will not occur to a limited extent (endothermic reactions often occur to a limited extent, those are not favorable).

NH4NO3 + KClO3 --> NH4ClO3 + KNO3

Keep in mind it wouldn't take much NH4ClO3 to form for there to be a large danger of spontaneous ignition present.

The danger is difficult to predict; considering that your composition contains so much sugar, I wouldn't be too worried.

<small>[ April 24, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Pu239 Stuchtiger ]</small>

[Cricket]

Hmmmm, nice. I like this. Maybe something I will try. Good experiment :) .

[inferno]

Ammonium chloride is a smoke agent, mixed with an oxidiser, and sucrose would make an excellent smoke mixture, as you tried.

Im not sure what the smoke from a KNO3+C12H22O11(sugar) mixture would be, as C, H and O would be flammable gases, and would ignite wouldnt they? Maybe im wrong. It may be a carbonate or something, but anyway my point is the smoke emitted from a KNO3+C12H22O11+NH4Cl would probably be the same as a KNO3 and sugar mix, except with some kind of chloride gas. This would make it poisonous right?

If you were using KCl04, sugar and NH4Cl, it would put out toxic or corrosive gases i think, like HCl, KOH or something...ill shut up now.

[vulture]

Well, there will always be some NO2 which is poisonous.
I suspect the smoke also contains polycyclic or partially oxidized hydrocarbons with a low boiling point, I wouldn't know where the smoke could come from otherwise. They ain't very healthy either.

CO would imediatly get oxidized to CO2 because of the reaction heat.
This can be detected by a bright yellow/red flame.

<small>[ April 25, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[A_W]

vulture- if you are talking about my smoke composition, the newspaper soaked in the smoke composition does not burn with a visible flame. It glows with a reddish glow, making a fizzing, "rocket" like sound. This could be the CO oxiding to CO2.

PS: What the hell happend to my post?!?

[kingspaz]

Pu, you are wrong when you say the following reaction does not occur:

NH4NO3 + KCl --> NH4Cl + KNO3

i have used this method to make KNO3 from NH4NO3 many times.
mix KCl with NH4NO3 and make a hot saturated solution, allow to cool and hey presto KNO3.
if i have time this weekend i will make up 200g of the mixture containing 10% vaseline. i will press 20g into a tube and leave it exposed to air to test moisture absorbance. i will put 1oog into storage and perform flame sensitivity tests in 2 months. the remaining 80g i will use in another charge but i'll do it it a field and have the camera a long way off so the smoke can be seen.

edit: i just realised i forgot to mention the advantage of useing this compostion over ones which contain NH4Cl - no inert materials such as NH4Cl!

edit 2: polverone, i don't have a webpage! i just use angelfire for storage. it won't work if you click the links first. you must copy and paste them only otherwise angelfire kicks in. sorry for any inconvenience.

<small>[ April 25, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[kingspaz]

right,
i've conducted tests with the new composition. that is:
30% NH4NO3
40% KClO3
20% sucrose
10% vaseline
i left a small sample on a piece of paper for 3 days after which the paper had a damp patch on it. i lit it with a lighter and it still burned. the vaseline however does protect it enough to make it storable as i've stored 200g of it in a not particularly air tight box since my last post in this thread.
anyway, i used 100g again and used an identical container, a card tube of the same diamter and height to make it a fair test. i think the new composition wins since it burned for and incredibly long 90 seconds!
but you guys can judge from the video. i set it off in a secluded plantation area so i could get a decent shot of the smoke and not get the neighbours suspicious. it was shot from about 30m away at a guess.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/2ndsmoke100g_kingspaz.rm" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/2ndsmoke100g_kingspaz.rm</a>

please do not clisk the link but copy and paste it into your browser window.
from the way the smoke seems to linger for a long time (not visible in the video, i mean about 5mins later it left a haze of blueish/grey)
i would say that ammonium chloride is a product of combustion, also what colour is ammonium chloride? after burning i went over to the smouldering area and there was previuosly molten lump of something which was brownish red in colour. it was similar to the potassium chloride left behind from compostions where the potassium chlorate had not been ground very well.
thoughts comments?

edit: also there is no funny smells or signs of decompostion from the stuff after a week. the 100g or so i have left i will store for about a month and then look again for signs of instability.

<small>[ May 04, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Ammonium chloride is white.

By the way, referring to this equation:

NH4NO3 + KCl --> NH4Cl + KNO3

I was meaning that that reaction wouldn't be favorable. I didn't have a chart of solubilities in front of me, either :) .

[kingspaz]

nobody seems to be interested in this particularly but i would like to point out that a good source has shown me what i have overlooked!
NH4NO3 is acidic!
NH4 <=> NH3 + H+
H+ + ClO3- <=> HClO3 which is very unstable. so don;t anybody make this! i will dispose of what i have left at the weekend.

[firebreether]

not to mention that youre logic is all wrong, there wont be any NH4Cl formed, just KCl, which is also white and will also make smoke. THe KClO3 and NH4NO3 decompose separately which is
NH4NO3 + KClO3 -> KCl + N2 + 2H2O + 4O2
and you can mix and match.....
2NH4NO3 + KClO3 -> KCl + 2N2 + 4H2O + 5O2
NH4NO3 + 2KClO3 -> 2KCl + N2 + 2H2O + 7O2
in this respect plain ole KClO3 would be so much better alone than with AN, because it burns into a solid, AN doesnt.

[BoB-]

The complete combustion equation for KNo3-Sucrose can be found here;
<a href="http://members.aol.com/nonillion/succhem.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/nonillion/succhem.html</a>

But its down right now, fucking AOL.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

The complete combustion reaction isn't that hard to figure out...

5C12H22O11 + 48KNO3 --> 60CO2 + 55H2O + 24K2O + 24N2

[vulture]

I mixed some frying oil (olive kind) with some KNO3/sugar. The mix is hard to ignite and burns slow. Not much improvement. The strange thing however was, that it burned with a red Sr flame! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Sr contamination.

[zaibatsu]

I'm pretty sure thats the oil producing the red flame, I was watching a cooking programme today, and when they were frying some chicken, they shook the pan about, and producing red coloured flames around the edge of the pan.

[A_W]

I`ve been thinking of a (new?) smoke comp:
30% KNO3
30% C12H22O11
40% NH4Cl

The nitrate/sucrose mix already makes pretty much smoke. With added NH4Cl, the mix should make (much) more smoke, right? No chlorates=more stable, right? Anyone tried this? What`s the reaction[edit:]S? :p

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]</small>

[kvitekrist]

my only smoke comp is disolving clorate and sugar (50/50) in hotwater then soak newspapers in it, dry them and light.. burns slow! but alot of white smoke is created.

[xoo1246]

A_W: rather, whats the reactions

[kingspaz]

from chemistry of powder and explosives:
3 parts potassium chlorate?!
1 part lactose
1 part ammonium chloride
hmmm....is this mix safe?!
says this mic has been used to study ventilation systems because the smoke is no toxic.
hmmm if this mix is safe then surely mine would be but i know mine isn't. what a srewup.