"Troika" russian plastic pistol

[teshilo]

I see these gun in J.Minnery book "How to kill vol.1" He is described as: "three shot electrically fired pistol from plastic ,with low metal content to avoid detection"..This three barelled gun. On pics show battery in hand and two switches: toogle and momentary, toggle may be for safe purproses ,momentary for fire...Receiver ,barrels and handle molded as one piece from plastic...Any add info:confused: :confused: No...Who knows more about these,writes...
Interesting sizes ,method of ignition ,barrel rifled or smooth,ammo etc ...

[Ropik]

I think that it used something similar to Zener's diode for ignition and it shot poisoned ammo - I don't know if some other type of ammo was created, probably yes. It had switch for 1, 2 or 3 barrels to shoot after trigger pull. That's all I know.

[nbk2000]

They have several different 'pistols' that sound suspiciously similiar to the Troika, listed on this website, and for sale no less. :)

http://www.arsenalnoe.ru/m/1151/osa_quotegidaquot.html

[teshilo]

I know these guns.This non-lethal weapon shooting rubber bullets calibre 18x45 .For firing electrycally used in various versions as battery as and generators like in gas lighter also, for best shooting used laser sight..In these moment i searh cheme of ignition .And "Troika" complete flat and portable device can easy hidden in pocket .These stuffs very big ...

[nbk2000]

I said similiar, not exact.

[teshilo]

This also intresting article described weapon for covert actions.Based on mechanical action
From http://phrygiancap.blogspot.com/2006/03/in-defense-of-defensetech.html


The article implied that the CIA made several prototype nonmetallic guns using "a super-hard ceramic material" originally developed for the exhaust valves in General Motors auto engines. The stuff "literally has the strength of steel," the article said. "The agency considered the material so important to national security that it reportedly had its formula classified, thereby preventing GM from marketing it."

The gun depicted was a small automatic pistol. A magazine of bullets loaded into the handle. When you pulled the trigger, a plastic spring drove the bolt/slide mechanism forward, pushing a bullet from the magazine into the chamber and firing it. The bullet had no case and apparently was the equivalent of a cannonball with a powder charge behind it. The propellant ignited in two stages to keep the chamber pressure low enough that the gun didn't blow up in your hand. The bullet itself could be ceramic or aluminum.

Two stage ignition of ammo for lowed of pressure :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .Good detail .

[Jacks Complete]

I'm not too sure about this, these aren't really "guns" in the sense we talk about them. They won't shoot through a vest, or even heavy clothes. They are more like the riotball plastic shotguns you get in France. Certainly wouldn't kill unless modified and used at close range.

This "super ceramic" sounds like a fun thing, but the price will put it way out of range of people, even if it wasn't classified. Again, though, I seriously doubt it was/is as tough as steel in terms of shock loading and stretching. And forget making a spring from it, that would have to be a plastic one, and plastic springs are rubbish. It might be good for these "BP type" two shots, but you won't see a Glock or sixgun type of thing from it, ever, unless they use very low pressure ammo.

Of course, materials science keeps going forward, so this might change.

[Ropik]

With things like ceramic/plastic guns, you might be better off making pepperbox-type gun. You can use higher laborations this way, as every barrel have to withstand only one firing. Something similar to HK underwater pistol.

[Jacks Complete]

http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/

Yes, he's hosted on geocities, but his work is great!

This link is to an electrically fired, mostly non-steel BP four shot smoothbore pistol. http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/project4/project4.html

It uses BP with a .25 patched ball through a delrin barrel. The ignition system is a hot wire, in the form of a model car glowplug.

[THAT Dude]

"I used 1018 cold drawn steel for the receiver/barrel."
Plastic tends to make poor barrels.

[Jacks Complete]

Hence "mostly non-steel." You obviously missed my post long ago that said "If the US Army can't make a plastic and aluminium barrel, you can't either."

However, a single steel tube (or even 4 in a wrapped plastic outer) is far lower in the detection stakes than a full steel pistol.

[amsci99]

Interesting stuff! Seems that the 'plastic pistol' from the movie, 'In the line of Fire' is now more fact than fiction.

[teshilo]

Thanks for help Jack. Good link .Yes plastic barrel bad More nice used in construction plastic receiver like PTFE with three stainless steel barrelsAnd caseless ammo ......

[5_seven]

I suppose a barrel could be made without steel, the best way to do this, IN MY OPINION, would be a laminated barrel constructed of aluminum and a very strong polymer, using a small caliber, .17-.22 cal. I wouldn't expect it to last very long if you intend to pop off a lot of shots though.

[Jacks Complete]

But aluminium would trip the detectors just as fully as steel would. It's an AC field, and the distortions of that are what count. Of course, some stainless steels are almost non-magnetic, such as those used for surgical pins. Those generally aren't considered strong enough for a rifle barrel, as the yeild strengths are too low. Of course, a low powered pistol wouldn't have that issue. ;-)

[FullMetalJacket]

Or what about carbon nanotubes? Heheh.

[5_seven]

That's what my key ring is made of, and it never trips metal detectors. I wonder if different detectors look for different things.

[nbk2000]

I seriously doubt that your keyring is made from carbon nanotubes. Carbon fiber, sure, but nanofiber?

[5_seven]

-----------Aluminum---------------

+++++++

Should have made it clear to whom you were replying to, eh? Then there'd have been no misunderstanding. :p NBK

[akinrog]

Actually detection of metals by a metal detector door is dependent on the sensitivity settings of the device.

For example, in majority of the public places (like shopping malls), my folding knife in my pocket does not set the detector off. Hovewever those devices installed in government buildings and airports, even the changes and keys in my pockets set the device off.

I remember translating a user's manual of such door type detector which contains a code to be able to change sensitivity settings. Regards

[5_seven]

Sorry, I'm such a n00b :b

But since metal detectors do have different sensetivity settings, the key is non-metals. This presents a challenge, because the cartridge is made of metal, the projectile is made of metal, I even heard some propellants contain metal particles (don't know if there's enough to set off alarms though). Back to square 1 eh?

[BeerWolf]

I was given a damaged Ruger 10/22 carbon fiber barrel to dissect a few years ago. It was mangled where it would fit into the receiver. The previous owner clamped it in a vise, and fractured the epoxy matrix.

When I cut it in half I found that the stainless steel liner was only .015" deep at the bottom of the grooves, and .024"-.035" think on the lands.

I removed all the carbon fiber from a section of the barrel about 6" from the chamber, on an 11" overall stub.

When I cobbled up a firing setup, the barrel burst (with Remington standard .22) right after th carbon fiber ended.

This leads me to believe that the liner is only to protect the carbon fiber from frictional wear, not to provide strength. If this is true, that a ceramic tube backed with fiber, should be good for at least a few dozen rounds.

Anyone know enough about ceramics to give me a good idea of how hard it would be to experiment with this? I can handle the carbon fiber part.

[BeerWolf]

A quick google search answered my own question:

http://users.wpi.edu/~katz/coverpg.html
These guys are working on 20mm barrels, looking to extend their life when used in gatling guns.

Looks very complicated if you want it rifled.

Not too bad for a smoothbore, except it must be short enough to fit into a firing oven. Hardest part seems to be gitting it off the mandrel.

[Jacks Complete]

I'd go for a clever system where the mandrel collapses, or use a mandrel that was magnetically collapsable, or some such. Heck, you could even use a very high temp ceramic, and then after getting the ceramic pressed properly, simply melt the mandrel out of it. Or use a lower temperature melting ceramic with a lower temp mandrel. Or use no temperature, just a shit load of pressure to fuse the ceramic particles. Or use a thin film of something easy to remove on the mandrel before applying the ceramics.

Anyway, this has nothing at all to do with the topic, since we are talking about a pistol, rather than a .50 machinegun barrel doing 100 round bursts. Suffice to say, these ceramic barrels are actually a ceramic liner with a steel outer, even if the steel liner is a cleverly constructed alloy that closely matches the ceramic properties. And that won't get through any metal detector that is working!

I'm going to rip those pages into a PDF, now, as well. Seems useful to have.

[IronMongrel]

Maybe you could make a mandril from graphite, it was used during the napolionic wars as a mould for cannon balls.

It has the advantage of being a lubricant in itself, and is also very soft so if needs be could be crumbled out of your fired tube. Its also easy to machine/turn, you could do it with your thumb nail.

You could probably preform the rifling on the core mandril if you could form the ceramic around it.

[5_seven]

There's always the lamination process (for us cheap bastards with no knowledge of crafting ceramics), using strong epoxy to hold several layers together. With the right epoxy, and the right material, a small caliber pistol is possible in muzzle loader form (metal bullet and casing=not good) you could probably use a bullet made of a hard stone, or ceramic, or whatever. The only thing that has me at a dead end is the ignition system, you can't use electricity, because that requires metal parts, you can't use mechanical, because of the use of metal, and other than using a match and fuse, I can't think of any feasable system to deliver the igniting spark to the powder.

[c.Tech]

The only thing that has me at a dead end is the ignition system, you can't use electricity, because that requires metal parts
How about non metal substances that conduct electricity, ie. graphite?

other than using a match and fuse, I can't think of any feasable system to deliver the igniting spark to the powder.

How about those sparking stones, or an impact sensitive pyrotechnic mix eg. Armstrong’s mix?

[teshilo]

Electricity conductive glues now available on open market...As ignition electrodes can be used graphite from common pencil..:) For straghtining of plastic barrel may be used method of coiled around barrel plastic fiber .As propellant can use "powder" from few hand gun primers..For projectile , so as weapon smooth-bored, arrow shape for best accuracy..

[Jacks Complete]

You could also, of course, do it the old way, with a hole and a bit of quickmatch, a hole full of BP or a flintlock, or lots of other "old school" systems.

On this very line, go on youtube and take a look at the "Mythbusters" team making a wooden cannon.

[teshilo]

"Complete How to Kill" by Minnery page 467: "Matcho" pen bomb.
"Push button plunger pushed match head across friction compound".... Desigh very simple and can used in disposable plastic pen gun.
In ancient many cannons constructed from wood and leather..:rolleyes:

[BeerWolf]

Well, I studied up on ceramics and composites enough to see that it's out of my price range to experiment on right now. I'm spending it on EDM barrel rifling stuff 'til I figure that out.

If someone else wants to give it a go, try this book:
http://rapidshare.de/files/13706782/Handbook_of_CeramicComposites_muyac.rar

It seems promising, I've just spread too thin to do this right now.

[teshilo]

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2005188872&F=0
Electronic ignition system for personal black powder firearms
Great notes of design and constuction...

[crookie1969]

I will stick my hand up to say this is my first post.
Has anyone thought of using resistive wire? I know it is used to cut foam as a "hot knife".
For a single shot / muzzle load weapon, it could be epoxied into place and a battery used to heat the wire up to ignite the powder.

[tomu]

http://www.kevinruffieux.de/X-Large%20Zuender.html

This is a german site which provides a simple but effective circuit for a spark igniter which could be used to ignite the powder charge.