Use for a small Petard

[Marmaloon]

This one would blurr the line between legit self defence, excessive force, and a weapon of mass destruction possibly in my country if used.

Imagine making a small petard from a block of common spruce 2 by 2 lumber with a shallow vee formed in it, a hole is drilled at right angles to the vee to accept the steel insert for the actual petard, which would have a .040" flash hole and a larger hole to accept a propellant charge and a bb(like for bb guns) The petard would be of a diameter that would allow it to press in the hole in the wood block. The rest of the hole would be taken up by a plug , cannon fuse, and top priming. The block would be of a length that would allow 2 wraps of duct tape to secure it to 1, 2, or 3 even, canisters of bear spray. If the enemy attacks your defensive position, just light the fuse, throw when you feel it's time, and put on your respirator. The idea is graduated response, it would give you a bit of time to prime your rifle or shotgun for doing something more permanent.

I'm thinking of testing the premise out in a remote area. If it worked, it would be very economical on powder, although I'll admit I don't know if the concept would work very well. It would indeed seem that further research is in order.

Also what would your opinion be regarding a proposed mixture of pepper spray and extract of poison ivy. I'm thinking it would be not quite, but damn near, as nasty as mustard gas.

[megalomania]

I was under the impression that poison ivy does not affect you the first time you are exposed, but every subsequent time you are hyper-sensitive to it.

Getting a face full would not be the end of the world. I have a touch right now on my chest, but all I did was take a stroll through the woods. Nothing came near my chest since I had a shirt on.

Obviously you have not seen pictures of the effects of mustard gas on humans, or you would not be comparing the two. Since your court trial will go easier if you use an irritant like poison ivy rather than some toxic substance that will permanently disfigure a person, you be the judge. If pain and disfigurement is your bag, go with a strong acid.

Remember, the dead feel no pain, and are victims to be avenged. The horribly disfigured will suffer for the rest of their lives, it’s their fault they got disfigured, and everyone will shun their “diseased” look. It is a natural instinct to flea from all that is abhorrent, we may intellectually know they are not diseased, but our instincts tell us to RUN AWAY! FREAK! PLAGUE!

[nbk2000]

Tell me if you've ever seen a poison ivy rash that could do this:

http://library.wustl.edu/units/westcampus/govdocs/onlinedisplay/1910s-gasburn.jpg

[Marmaloon]

yes, I realize they are not the same, If you would allow me to backpedal a bit, I was referring to the short term effects. Poison Ivy is not the same as Lewisite or Mustard gas that much is sure, as it was designed to be corrosive to human flesh. Probably best to stick with something less lethal. I would definitely put on my respirator before throwing something like that.

" There's letters seal'd: and my two schoolfellows,
Whom I will trust as I will adders fang'd,
They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work;
For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
Hoist with his own petard: and 't shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon: O, 'tis most sweet,
When in one line two crafts directly meet."

[Cindor]

What about a device that throw needles coated with pepper spry ?
It won't be lethal... it wont even seriously wound the victim... but it would burn like hell.

Or just a shotting device throwing salt, just like that. It's going to injure (and burn) but not kill.

[Marmaloon]

I was probably talking out of (you know) about the mixture of Urushiol / Pepper spray, but it's not a new idea, wasn't there something that was a mix of pepper spray and CS that was sold in the states anyway as a self defence spray? I think it would probably be best to keep it as simple as possible, probably someone came up with the idea of puncturing a canister of bear spray through similar means before, I just wanted to raise it here, might actually save someone's life and property someday. It would not be needed in most situations in either Canada or the US, have you heard of what happened in Argentina after 9/11, I have never been there, and Argentina is usually off the radar screen in North America, but I have heard from some bloggers about how bad it got socially, and that's about as bad as you'd want things to get.

In case you're wondering that quote came from Shakespheare's "Hamlet". Just about says it all, don't it?:)

PS, I thought about it some more, .172 diameter ball might be too big, you might have to play around with the bore of the petard to get the 'best' efficiency, you might have to go smaller. Also, I was thinking about gently heating the unit before using, if you had one of those electric back therapy units, you might be able to put it on a 'safe' setting, the idea would be to get more of a CS gas grenade effect. But I admit, the circumstances in which you would be able to pre-heat the unit before throwing in anger would be very limited.

[Marmaloon]

Why would you need something like this?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060802/manaan_mtg_060802/20060802/

If the special constables who took it upon themselves to make the arrests had access to something as simple as a drill of about 1/2 inch, some pipe fittings, tubing, and some basic tools and maybe about 6 bear spray canisters, their citizen's arrest could have gone a lot smoother; but the people were under a lot of pressure to do something, I hope the jury and magistrate go real easy on them. People in Maine might have heard something about this because Grand Manan is not far from the border.

Funny how the police and media label this as 'vigilantism' when in my book, they were taking their lawful right to make an arrest as special constables, due to the fact the police system failed them absolutely. The police in HRM have this strange attitude as well, when someone successfully defends themselves in the Halifax/Dartmouth area, and it gets publicized on the news media, the police are damned quick to denounce it as 'vigilantism', and warn everyone they can against it, yet when young offenders swarm and half beat someone to death, they have the 'victim' dead to rights. Thanks Pere Trudeau.

[nbk2000]

Jackson said police have begun to receive a deluge of tips to help solve criminal activity on the island.

He said earlier this week, police made a large seizure of firearms.

"We seized upwards of 50 firearms from one residence that were insecure, and a number were restricted."


That's the reason why the police are there now, and not because of the drugs. Now that the citizens have used their guns in defense of the community, the pigs can seize them, and make yet more criminals out of decent people.

[Marmaloon]

Thanks, I had not taken that part of the article into consideration. On reflection, I hope the magistrate and jury don't 'go easy on them', but I am hoping that the jury will rub the magistrate's and the lawyers and the legal system's nose in it, and also hoping they rub the police system's nose in it and find them not guilty on all charges. They'd better not have an activist magistrate or activist jurists parachuted in from Toronto(probably not likely); if so, things are going to stink pretty bad up here for a while.

[Jacks Complete]

Hopefully, the jury will find them not guilty in the face of the evidence, using the ancient principle of Jury Annulment. This will force the police to release the guys, and the politicians to revisit the law.

[nbk2000]

Jury nullification only works if the jury knows that they have the power to judge not only the defendant, but also the law by which he is charged.

A lot of judges instruct the jury to decide only if the defendant is guilty under the law, not the law itself. Under those instuctions, sheeple go "Well, I feel bad for the guy because the law is too harsh, but he IS guilty of breaking it.". :rolleyes:

[DeathBlade]

While not quite related to a petard, could Urushiol be used a poor mans blistering agent?

After reading the article on wikipedia on poison-ivy is seems that when poison-ivy is burnt it somehow releases the Urushiol as a type of aerosol. So then couldn't the Urushiol be extracted then vaporized in somEthing like a fog machine or maybe a oil based haze machine?

If poison ivy is burned and the smoke then inhaled, this rash will appear on the lining of the lungs, causing extreme pain and possibly fatal respiratory difficulty. If poison ivy is eaten, the digestive tract and airways will be affected, in some cases causing death.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol

[Marmaloon]

To try and get back on topic, it seems that a similar substance has been used in Japan for lacquer, which would seem to indicate stability. However, it remains to be seen if the stuff from Poison Ivy is relatively stable. It might be more of an interesting curiousity than anything else. I don't even know if it would be safe to handle in large amounts. I would not want to mess with it, on second thought. About the pepper spray 'satchel charge', you could test it relatively harmlessly by getting several of the inert training canisters.

[nbk2000]

...couldn't the Urushiol be extracted then vaporized in somEthing like a fog machine or maybe a oil based haze machine?


You could.

But, for the effort, why not just synth an ounce or so of Mustard gas? In such small quantites, you can make it in test tubes with virutally no investment.

That one ounce would be more than adequate, once dissolved in oil and vaporized as a fog, to lay waste to the eyes of anyone in a large building.

Synthesized chemicals have the great advantage of repeatability, compared to extracts from natural sources, especially considering how you very likely don't have any means of quantifying the potency of an Urishol extract.

[Marmaloon]

I'm not comfortable with making up something like that, even though I have it on disc somewhere. Flash powder is okay, as far as I am concerned, but mustard/binary nerve gas, no thanks, I don't want Kofi's boys paying me a visit.:)

Although as they say, 'there's a time and place for everything'.

[Diabolique]

What comes to mind for a relatively nonleathal, fast acting, skin irritant would be dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) mixed with formic acid. The pain would be intense, and the onset would be a matter of a few seconds. A single droplet would be like a bee sting.

nbk, I've seen worse images of mustard. What has been found is that due to it taking hours to cause blisters, they do not know they have it on their hands. They go to relieve themselves, and guess what gets mustard on it. From what I've read, over 90% of mustard victims are burnt there.

[Hirudinea]

What about building a cardboard "pipe bomb" coated in rock salt? Rock salt has been use in shot gun loads as a non-lethal deterant for varmants of the four and two legged kind for centuries

If you had a cardboard tube filled with gunpowder, capped on both ends, fused and covered in glued on rock salt (or encrust it in salt before the "bomb" is made.)

You could light the fuse, toss the "bomb" and when it exploded (hopefully) a small area would be showered with hot salt sharpnel, this combined with the flash and blast of the explosion could be a very good diversion.

Of course this is an amatuer suggetion, I'm sure people here will come up with a much better application, but you get the general idea.

[Marmaloon]

I was thinking about acrolein or chloracetone, PMJB has a short segment about making acrolein, I think it would have to be done in an isolated area in small batches, (they mentioned 1 oz at a time) as the stink from the byproducts apparently has an intense unpleasant odour. From what I heard about chloracetone manufacture, just bubble gas through acetone until it reaches a specific gravity. I have heard that acrolein is not on the chemical weapons convention list, but I don't know about chloracetone. Mustard gas has been known to be not fatal unless you really get hit with it over 50 Percent of your body area, but it's on the chemical weapons convention. If you got your hands on some pure capsaicin or a OC solution with a high concentration of capsaicin(much preferred, as pure capsaicin is a biohazardous substance), that could be the way to go. Does anyone know where to get the stuff, and is there a good repeatable way to extract the stuff from hot peppers?

[Diabolique]

I extracted it with fresh freon for an electronic circuit degreaser. I could get it for free at the time, and it wasn't restricted at that time.

I have heard others have used an old coffee percolator with the 'nest' filled with red pepper, and the pot with ethanol, and brewing. I would be extremely careful of that, boiling alcohol on a hot stove would seem to be ill advised.

My thought would be a mixture of alcohol and red pepper in a flask with a reflux condenser, which should be safer. A hot water bath would be used for heating, reducing the rate of heating. After cooling to room temperature, the pepper huls would be filltered from the solution, and the alcohol evaporated off. The residue would be raw capsaicin mixed with other substances. I do not know how to purify it, but it should be usable as is.

[Marmaloon]

That's basically the method in PMJB, but it does not mention equivalence in capsaicinoids(Scoville Units). Probably much higher than the dog/bear repellent we have in Canada. Maybe 3 plastic bottles filled with chloracetone with a burster charge in the middle would be better as a riot gas.

[Diabolique]

Back in the mid-70's, I ran a gas house for testing protective masks and giving people confidence in their equipment. The only way to know if the concentration of CS was high enough was to remove my mask. By the end of the day, I was able to function w/o a protective mask, even though the CS still burned. You can become acustomed to it. (I remember returning to the barracks, and turning it into a 'gas house' from just the residue on my fatigues.)

CS is supposed to be nastier than capsaicin. Just a thought.

[nbk2000]

It's possible to habituate to the presence of CS after repeated exposures.

However, it's not a good thing, as CS is known to be a carcinogen and other 'gens, which might explain your current health status.

CN is a sensitizer. One-time exposure can cause much more severe effects upon second exposure, with such prettiness as ulceration and blindness.

Oh, reminds me, I saw a mention on converting CN into a vesicating oxime by oxidation. Sounds fun. :)

[Chris The Great]

Poison ivy sounds nasty, if made synthetically. See "Synthesis of Compounds Structually Related to Poison Ivy Urushiol, J. Med. Chem. 14 (1971) pg 729". PDF scan coming friday when I can get to my scanner.

1-alkyl-2,3-dimethoxybenzene compounds.
Basically, an 11 carbon side chain caused redness 50% of the time at 0.0018micromole application... 0.5 micrograms! Obviously, that will only give a bit of redness... but what happens at 0.5mg? Quite unpleasant I imagine!

And if investigated, it's not illegal, I mean it's basically just poison ivy (albiet with a longer alkyl chain). Bit exotic and hard to synthesize, but why not? I imagine they'd make great tear gases as well, it would be like pulping poison ivy and inhaling it.

[Diabolique]

nbk, thanks, I didn't know that. Wish I knew you 30 years ago. They just told us not to use it in high concentrations in hot weather, as it could blister the skin. No cancers - yet - just massive nerve damage and diabetes from Agent Orange - sprayed with it almost daily for two months - plus aromatic and ketone solvents - again, told it was not harmful if well ventilated. Swine Flu vaccine also didn't help, another substance that caused nerve damage.

Moral: If those in charge say it is harmful, run. If they say it is harmless, run faster.

[Alexires]

On extracting Capsaicin - I used acetone. I sat some store powdered chili in hot acetone for 2 hours. Then I filtered with a coffee filter and boiled the acetone off.

A red solid was left at the bottom of the container which had a low melting point (about 50*C IMO).

I placed a tiny amount on my finger (it looked like a stain) and licked it. Damn, it was hot.

It would take a lot of chili to get a decent amount, perhaps more could be gained from fresh chili.

[c.Tech]

That powder you’re getting at the supermarket is absolute shit. But in general Australia doesn’t have very hot chillies easily found, (absence of Mexicans)?

I make an extract from that powder shit with ethanol a while back, put some in my friend’s cigarette and got him to smoke it.

Just a couple of coughs and he was better. He told me later that it warmed and numbed his throat.

[Alexires]

Yeah, I had a guess it was shit, but any port in a storm.

I have a feeling that burning capsaicin will decompose it (tried it a few times with no better result than a bit of coughing and numbness).

Somebody told me (with a bachelor degree in general science) that ethanol wouldn't be a good solvent for capsaicin, it would be better to use acetone (which I did).

Maybe someone else could post their results trying acetone and ethanol and talking about the yeild? From 33.3g of chili powder, I didn't get alot of red waxy goo (I'm assuming capsaicin with some chili powder impurities). Not enough to weigh, although I'll try tomorrow.

I'd say if anyone was serious about making a decent amount of capsaicin it would be off to the plant store to get some chili plants.

[Marmaloon]

was thinking more along the lines of just getting the pure stuff as follows:

http://www.hotternell.com/pure_capsaicin_powder.htm

But the price makes it impractical.

Possible source(s)?

http://www.ashianherbex.com/nicotine_sulphate.htm

http://www.exim-pharm.com/index.html

http://www.uhe.com/cosmeticslist

+++++++++++

You have to begin a URL with a [url] tag in order to make it linkable. NBK

[nbk2000]

I have to wonder, what would happen if you cut someones dope with pure capsaican powder, and they snorted it? :eek:

I think they'd either die from lung inflammation, or wish they were dead. :D

[c.Tech]

nbk, sounds like a very good way to pick off the worthless crack heads and ice freaks around an area.

Just leave the drug lying around in little bags just waiting for a drug starved criminal to take a line.

Put a small amount of a hard to detect toxin in with the capsaicin powder to make sure the person died, he would have inflamed lungs either way so forensics wouldn’t bother looking for anything else.

Dimethyl mercury would also be a good candidate, not only would it have a delayed death but the residue lying around but would poison anybody who is around, even better if the bags are reused to sell more.

It would make the world a better place :).

[Diabolique]

nbk, someone already beat you to that one by about 30 years.

In '76, I was stationed in Germany, and was the Chemical-Biological-Radiological defense NCO for an ordnance company (550+ people). The supply officer called me in as one of his people had broken open a 20 kilo bag of CS-2 (micropowdered CS lacrymator) and he wanted me to clean it up as I had more experience with the stuff than his people.

After the cleanup, I went into his office for a break. He had a paper cup with a small quantity of CS-2 in the bottom sitting on his desk. This E-7 came in and started BS-ing. He noticed the paper cup with the white powder, and asked what it was - the E-7 was suspected of drug use. The supply officer calmly stated they had busted a troop for cocaine possesion, and that was the evidence. This goof-ball picked up the cup and took a deep snort.

It was over half an hour before he could breathe halfway normally, let alone speak. The tearing, nose-running and drooling were a sight to behold as he weathed on the floor. We did bring him in to the medics, I was worried about that much CS in someone's system. The supply officer let him suffer for a while. I doubt he snorted any more "cocaine" of dubious origins.

CS is a lot nastier than capsaicin. Pepper spray is for sheeple to use, CS based Mace is resereved for police.

[nbk2000]

The pepperspray you can buy is 2 million SHU. The powder linked to by Marmaloon is 15 million SHU's, more than 7x more concentrated. :)

Also, OC is an inflammatory, whereas CS is an irritant. CS doesn't work on people who can't feel pain (like coke heads), but OC will inflame any tissue it contacts, regardless of the victims neurological state.

[Marmaloon]

Yes, I was not sure of the hotlinking policy for some reason I don't remember right now(?) getting old. Diabolique, thanks for that great anecdote! I definitely fear CS as I spent some time in Her Majesty's Canadian Army and we all had to go to the dreaded "Gas Hut" every 6 months or even more frequently*depended on how pissed off management was:) It would be interesting to know what would be the maximum possible Scoville Equivalency you could get with a sprayable mixture involving capsaicin. I guess it would have to be cut with alcohol/maybe acetone and mineral oil?

[Marmaloon]

Does anyone know if Chloracetone is producable easily? The only information I have on it is from 'Assorted Nasties' by David Harber. It has a short enough description of how it's generally made, but reading between the lines, it seems to indicate the stuff has some degree of volatility. Also is it a carcinogen?

[nbk2000]

All I can say is UTFSE. ;)

[teshilo]

Does anyone know if Chloracetone is producable easily? The only information I have on it is from 'Assorted Nasties' by David Harber. It has a short enough description of how it's generally made, volatility.

Chloracetone yes easy produced ..Process described in A.N. had small error in acetone more like add calcium carbonate for best results More good proces described in Sartori "War Gases".

I read memories former SWAT member. He wrote that they create improvised gas grenade from three wrapped together CS sprays with placed in centre grenade fuze..