Basic Fitness/Abilities

[Alexires]

Often in the forum, there is talk about "when the crackdown comes" and other such times when the knowledge obtained here will be of some use.

But the problem is, if your a big fat guy, your gonna get your ass shot by the JBT.

What I would like to ask the forum readers is (especially NBK and Mega) what they think a basic level of fitness/ability would be for the average forumite and then the ideal level.

The Army pre entry physical requirements are frankly shocking. 45 sit ups, 15 push ups (8 for chicks) and a bit of running. (Aus army requirements)

Personally, I think that a much higher level of fitness and ability is required to be able to do anything at all useful.

What do you all think? I'm not too sure what is reasonable. Personally, being able to run 10km fairly easily would be the basic, at least 100 push ups/sit ups and be able to hit hard enough to make sure whoever you hit goes down and stays down. Ability wise, I would say know enough about a few various weapons that you wont shoot/stab yourself in the foot (or blow it off).

Idealy, I have no idea about the push-ups/sit-ups but I'd say 20km with a 25kg back pack would be the ideal for running, and also good environmental awareness. When I say environmental awareness, I mean the ability to recall what was in a room from just a quick glance and other such kind of things.

Also, for those of us where guns are hard to come by, I would recommend proficiency with a bow. Not a crossbow, because they take too long to reload (but proficiency with that would be good as well). The ability to hit something from just the sound of it (I get bored during the day) and good upper body strength (for climbing and stuff like that).

If you could master those skills, then you wouldn't need nightvision. Remembering where everything was in the room, you could avoid it, or use it for cover. By being able to shoot at sounds and hit them, you could take out people stomping around in boots, and if you needed to run away or climb away, you could do so.

Also knife throwing. It may seem stupid, but its better to know it and not need it, than to need it and not know it.

Just throwing ideas out there gentlemen.

[c.Tech]

The strength your talking about isn’t really that important, sometimes muscles can slow you down.

You will always need some muscles, you can’t be a scrawny little 12 year old, nor can you weigh 100Kg, but in the end it’s the skill that counts.

Martial arts and combat fighting would be great for fighting. (I'm learning Arwrology :))

You also have to be fast, to run from the police etc. "Le parkour" has been discussed here before, it is probably the best way to get away.

[Defendu]

I would recommend proficiency with a bow. Not a crossbow, because they take too long to reload (but proficiency with that would be good as well).

Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the members at an 'Explosives and Weapons' forum seem to be wannabe ninjas who dream of waging war with bows and arrows, and throwing knives?

And what about your NinjaTM throwing knives?

Try comparing the time it takes to draw back your knife arm for a throw and aim compared to just rushing in and stabbing a target within knife throwing range.

To illustrate my point open this link and skip to 1 minute and 30 seconds into the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853

Can you honestly say you can draw and throw a knife to lethal effect against a cop before he can get his weapon out of its holster? And what good is a short range projectile weapon like a throwing knife if it takes longer to use than it would if you were to just run right up to your target?

[Ekilo]

I don't remember where I was reading this, but the article was saying that it takes about 10 years to master a skill. I would assume that this time would vary depending on the amount and quality of practice.

If 10 years is correct then I believe our current knowledge is all we will have to depend on. For alot of people this means they are up the creek.

The current state of affairs in the world show me that there is little time left. I hope I am wrong.

[anonymous411]

No matter how skilled and knowledgeable you are, there's no substitute for strength and endurance. What possible benefit could come from ignoring two of the most basic elements of human survival?

My suggestion is to do CrossFit five times a week. This is the program many tactical operations teams and special operations units train on... it's designed to enhance your ability to deal with combat and survival situations on multiple levels. Works for me.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

[Skean Dhu]

I disagree with your stance 411, what good is strength with no skill or knowledge on how best to apply said strength? If your main attacks are smash and grab what are you gonna do when you find someone who can dodge you? You need to be able to use the strength you have in the most efficient way possible

Some basic things that everyone would benefit from without regards to which side of the law they wish to live on
-run 2 miles contiunous, ideally in as close to 15min as possible
If you can't get to a car in that time, you set yourself up for failure and deserve whatever is chasing you
-5.5sec or better 40yd dash
Those first 6 seconds of the chase will determine where you sleep that night, be it your bed, a hospital, police station, or a morgue if you can't get distance between yourself and your pursures your screwed
-be agile
you need to be able to change your course to effectivly fight or escape and evade
-situational awareness so you don't get a beer bottle to the skull
and a basic familiarity with weapons for when you can't avoid confrontation be it with the JBTs or a group of misguided street vermin
-know some basic blocks and strikes perhaps an entire kata from a chosen martial art.
-be able to hit what you're aiming at with the most common weapons
-small arms 15m(this includes knives, shuriken & shaken, and blowguns for you fuedal assasins :rolleyes: )if you can do that you'll be way ahead of most of the thugs on the streets
-rifle; iron sites 30m
-Basic fitness
-10 pull ups
-100 pushups
-200 situps
-100 body weight squats(ie just you, no bar, no weights)

[Jome skanish]

Shurikens? For what? Those are only useful as a diversion, perhaps throwing at an knife-armed enemy. Great video btw!

The truth is, noone can hope to escape a serious "crackdown", no matter how fast, well trained and well armed one is. Especially since most of you live in the US, and if you're suspected to be a "extremely dangerous terrorist", there is going to be lots of cops. And even if those theoretically could be beat, there would be swat-teams, snipers, helicopters....

The point is, if you're going to use drain cleaner for anything else but drain cleaning, dont live where they shoot you for it. Basic combat-ability and E&Ws knowledge is good, especially if there will be riots, ethnic clashes or perhaps even civil war, but as one single person you simply cannot win or even make much difference in defending your loved ones.

[anonymous411]

"I disagree with your stance 411, what good is strength with no skill or knowledge on how best to apply said strength?"

You missed my point: since when is survival a matter of "pick the best one of four"? You need it all. I know from personal experience that in many situations, even if you have the knowledge and skill, without strength and endurance, you're absolutely fucked.

I know out-of-shape people can be very creative when it comes to making excuses for themselves, but unfortunately that's just how it is.

Adapt or die.

[nbk2000]

Shurikens? For what?


Someone missed the :rolleyes: icon, indicating disdain or sarcasm for such things. :p

Research by the LAPD shows that if a suspect can outrun the police for 200 yards (assuming no helicopter), he'll generally escape immediate capture, because the cops are weighed down with so much shit, and in such physical condition, that they can't keep up with a good sprinter.

[Chris The Great]

Indeed, on our own we are screwed if we are alone in the event of a big crackdown. However, being ready and able to fight for your life is a definate thing I believe all members of the forum should be able to do.

Also, those fitness levels for pre-entry into the army are laughable. 15 pushups? Hell, that was my maximum when I hadn't worked out for two years and was a scrawny weakling. Anyone got figures for AFTER boot camp though?

Let's face it, you need everything to be able to hope to "win" (escape alive). Strength, agility, intelligence, ability to survive without anything. Alexires has a good point, that chances are a lot of people on this forum are not in good shape. That really is something that everyone should work towards changing, for their own good.

[Ekilo]

Chris The Great came close to hitting the mark.

Basic human instinct dictates that a person will either fight or run

Fight or Flight

We have all heard of great feats being performed under dire circumstances. I believe that a little extra experience would greater enhance the outcome of such a situation.

The way I personally feel is, a person should learn whatever they choose. Learn it well. You may never need it but you never really know.

[anonymous411]

Research by the LAPD shows that if a suspect can outrun the police for 200 yards (assuming no helicopter), he'll generally escape immediate capture, because the cops are weighed down with so much shit, and in such physical condition, that they can't keep up with a good sprinter.

Interesting. Of course, other kinds of pursuers are likely to be better organized and much harder to escape than the police (SWAT, FBI, BATF, DEA, INS, Federal Marshals, National Guard, professional hit men, bounty hunters, etc).

One of the basic principles of risk assessment is to define and rank your threats in order of probability and potential loss and prepare accordingly. I'll bet most people here have far more to worry about from their fellow garden-variety scumbags than the kind operating under a badge.

No matter what threats you face, studying military manuals on E&E and SERE (Survival, Escape, Resistance and Evasion) training couldn't hurt. The more prepared you are, the better your odds.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armymanuals/

One of the most useful tips I picked up is the importance of being able to seem "cooperative" and talkative without revealing any useful information whatsoever.

[megalomania]

Physical fitness is not just good for survival when it counts, but it is good for you period. I have stepped up my own physical fitness program to shed a few extra pounds and to build up muscle mass. Physical activity increases oxygen flow to the brain, which in turn enhances intellect and memory, albeit briefly. There was just a promising study about long term memory effects in Runner’s World a few months ago.

Being fit and athletic can also boost self confidence in a dangerous situation where you may fear getting your ass kicked. If you think you can win a fight, you may be less likely to run away like a scared little girl, or you can diffuse a potentially dangerous situation with a potential attacker from sheer presence of will. A victim that meekly surrenders will be more likely to be raped and abused, but a man that stands his ground might not be worth the trouble.

If you have the time and the inclination then no combat skill is useless. Since most of us do not have the time to master martial arts or weapons, having at least some basic familiarity with weapons can help save your life. The weapon depends on the situation. There is an old saying, “don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.” If you fear men with guns, then get a gun. If you fear men with fists, then learn to use your fists.

I have a concealed carry permit and a .45 caliber on me at every opportunity where it is legal. I have a small knife when it is not. I can’t throw my knife with any great accuracy, but I will immediately go for your throat or gut. I will not hesitate to shoot anyone if I think you will attack me. I always keep my weapons hidden until I intend to use them. A man once had me by the throat with the intention of doing some harm, but he never knew I had a knife pressed against his gut, inside my jacket, the entire time.

The gun is a great equalizer. The kinds of men who are quick to dismiss guns as cowardly and unfair are usually skilled at martial arts and physically powerful. They don’t like their physical advantage taken away by any 90 pound weakling with a .22. You also do not have to use a gun for it to be effective. A murderous band of raping niggers can be discouraged from any criminal act when a gun is pointed at their balls.

Don’t wait until you are going to be raped and murdered before you use a gun. I practice at the shooting club to learn the weight and fit of the gun, to get used to the kick, and to work on my aim. Being a professional sharpshooter is not my goal, just the occasional experience.

You do not have to train like an Olympic athlete because the world is full of amateurs, just like you. But you are at a disadvantage if you don’t at least try! Hit the running trails, grab a barbell, do some pushups, and pass on that second piece of pie because you will at least live a longer and healthier life. If and when the crackdown does come you will make it costly for the oppressors to win. Your enemies may still win, but a Pyrrhic victory is hardly worth fighting at all.

[jellywerker]

Hmm, according to prettymuch any of these measures, I'm set for physical fitness, now to keep it up and continue training the mind...

I'm scrawny at around 135lbs on my 6ft frame (I haven't filled out yet... it'll come, I hope :P), but I can run a 5:30 mile (and a 7min. mile for several miles at a time), climb like a monkey, and indeed, free running, something of an American parkour that involves less jumping between buildings and more going really fast through all sorts of things, is one of my favorite hobbies. I also climb random structures when I'm bored. Keeping me this fit is my main hobby, rowing competitively on an intranational level.

Can you tell I wanted to be a ninja when I was younger? :D

I am trained in martial arts, certainly not to a black belt degree, but enough to put you down and keep you there if neccessary. What I admit I lack though, while I am trained in knives and staffs and swords and such, I have only fired a gun several times in my life, and all of very small caliber. This is something I intend to work on. Lastly, I try to carry at least a knife, along with some other useful items (lighter, though I don't smoke, flashlight, pen, etc...) at all times. At my age, a gun is not really an option, but nor would I find it neccessary where I live, although as I age, I intend to carry and practice with a small, hard hitting pistol for personal defence and start some training with rifles, somewhat like Megalomania, not to the level that I am a sharpshooter, but enough that I hit close enough to where I aim and am comfortable firing weapons.

[Sausagemit]

I've allways ate well ie fruts and veggies, barely any sweets and junk food, havn't drank a soda pop in almost 3 years. But I've allways been a big guy. Instead of having a 6 pack I have a keg.

Now this is decieving to most people because the don't realize how fast I can run, how far I can run, and how good I am at various other physical activities.

I try to play raquetball on a regular basis, I ride my bike for at least an hour a day if not more, durning the winter I try to go skiing as much as possible (expensive addiction but when your hurling down a hill on 2 sticks going 65 mph it's hard to give up), and various other activites.

I have a lot of friends who are rock climbers and I would like to get into that but I just don't know if I have the build to be successfull at it. If I had 5% body fat I would probabbly still weigh right around 200 lbs.

[Docca]

(SWAT, FBI, BATF, DEA, INS, Federal Marshals, National Guard, professional hit men, bounty hunters, etc).

One of the basic principles of risk assessment is to define and rank your threats in order of probability and potential loss and prepare accordingly. I'll bet most people here have far more to worry about from their fellow garden-variety scumbags than the kind operating under a badge.

First, if you're foolish enough to (do something to) get any of those agencies on you, you're almost certainly going to lose, it doesn't matter how fit, fast, obscure or well armed you are. Think Randy Weaver, think Waco.

Second, I'm all about risk assessment - You'd better think long + hard before you take a chance on drawing the attention of the aforementioned.

Third, if you're fit, fast, obscure and well armed, you have very little to worry about when dealing with garden-variety scumbags.

[Alexires]

Sausagemit - I apoligise, I didn't mean any big person. I had in mind someone that was fat and can't do shit. You know your own worth, doesn't matter what you look like. For info, rock climbing is fucking awesome, you should try it no matter how big you are. I've only done it indoors (which was awesome), and a full day of that leaves you absolutely fucked.

Defendu - As ironic that I find some of the members of the forum only use the one scenario that supports their case instead of considering the whole.

Given the scenario that the cop and I are standing there 5m apart with my knife sheathed and his gun sheathed, I have no doubt I'm about to start leaking from a hole somewhere soon.

But what happens if you already have your knife out? The chances look a little better. What happens if the cop doesnt know your there? Even better still. It is better to know it and not need it than to not know it and need it.

Anyway, I don't mind the practice, it can be fun sometimes.

My Ninja TM practice throwing knifes happens to be Glock FM 78s. Balanced for throwing, and not half bad in my opinion. The sheath is a bitch to get the knife out of in a hurry, but with a little practice it isnt too bad.

Your god damn right I would want to wage war with a bow, if that was my only weapon. Maybe it is difficult to comprehend a society where guns (legal and illegal) are hard to come by. I would rather have a bow against guns than my fists against guns.

Defendu, what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by?

Sure shuriken may be useless compared to guns, but I'd rather have them than not have them in a fight. As well as throwing them, they can be used for hand to hand combat as well.

c.Tech - I understand that an over abundance of muscle is a problem, but so is being scrawney. There is a point where muscle starts to become a problem, I just want to know where that point is and not surpass it.

Ekilo - Not suprised, but what is the definition of mastery? I would say that it is the point where there is nothing left to learn, so I would say that 10 years is a short time to master something.

For instance, with a bow and arrow. If you fire 100 arrows a day for a month or two no matter how bad you are, you will be able to hit someone 15 meters away 9/10 times. Imagine practicing for a year or 6 months? I'd say by that point, you would be competent. Say you are stranded out in the bush/forest? You couldn't make a gun, but you could fashion a crude bow and arrow.

Skean Dhu - I like what you have listed there, although getting in a few more pull ups wouldn't be too bad. My girlfriend can run 109.4 yards (100m) in sub 14 seconds, so I think that we could do that too hmmmm?

Chris The Great - I know that one of the last things that they do at boot camp is a 15km run/walk with a 25kg back pack. Not sure what else they can do, but it wouldn't be too bad I wouldnt think.


I see a lot of disdain for traditional weaponary, and I can fully understand. Who in their right mind would believe they could take someone out with a shuriken when the other person is armed with a gun?

But in a land where guns are synonymous with satan and its easy to get knives/crossbows/bows/swords, I'd rather train in what I can get than to bitch and moan over what I can't yet.

[Sausagemit]

Sausagemit - I apoligise, I didn't mean any big person. I had in mind someone that was fat and can't do shit. You know your own worth, doesn't matter what you look like. For info, rock climbing is fucking awesome, you should try it no matter how big you are. I've only done it indoors (which was awesome), and a full day of that leaves you absolutely fucked.

I wasn't defending myself I was just stating that a lot of people mistake me for an out of shape guy which can often be used to my advantage. :D

[BeerWolf]

....what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by? I would suggest learning to build them from a forum like this.:)

[rant ON]I will never run 10k with a pack, as I am disabled. I can walk, but not run, or carry any heavy pack. But I can shoot someone quite well, as a couple of would be muggers have found out. I do practice quite a bit.

Physical prowess is great if you have it, but some of us must use our brains and skills in other ways.[rant OFF]
-BW

[Defendu]

What happens if the cop doesnt know your there?

Provided you can't sink a throwing knife to the hilt in his vitals with sufficient accuracy, he'll turn right around to face you and kill you.

But what happens if you already have your knife out?

You telegraph your intentions to stab him as you draw your knife back for a throw, he moves out of the way, and plants a bullet in your chest. Provided you cant hit a moving target while throwing a knife either non-telegraphically or with whiplike speed.

Here is what Colonel Rex Applegate had to say about knife throwing:

Before taking up actual knife-fighting technique, you can discard the idea of knife throwing as a practical method of combat. There are a few — too few to count in a war — people who can pick up a knife, throw it at a moving object at an unknown distance, and hit a vital spot. Knife throwing is an art that belongs in vaudeville and side-shows. In order to throw a knife properly, the exact distance from the thrower to the target must be known because the knife turns end over end as it travels through the air. The thrower therefore must know his distance to control the number of turns the knife makes so that it will hit the target point first. There are some methods of knife throwing at close ranges in which the blade does not turn over in the air, but when one considers the agility of a military target, heavy clothing, and the fact that if you miss you are without a weapon, it is easy to see that knife throwing is impractical.

Source:
http://www.jimmy-fatwing.co.uk/

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy_fatwing/Military/infantry_knife.htm

what do YOU suggest someone should become proficient with if guns are hard to come by?

Here are some things those without firearms should learn to use in my opinion:

1. Improvised explosives, incendiaries, poisons etc. (I've never heard of a modern war being won using crossbows and hand to hand combat)

2. Knifing. (as opposed to "knife fighting")

3. Melee weapons other than a knife. (these can include clubs, sticks, jackets, pens, weighted chains and anything you can pick up that weighs more than three pounds)

4. Unarmed combat

5. Crossbows. (because you can't shoot a bow from the low prone position)

My best advice is to not waste your time with "nunchucks" or other ninja/karate bullshit that doesn't do serious damage to your target.

Sure shuriken may be useless compared to guns, but I'd rather have them than not have them in a fight. As well as throwing them, they can be used for hand to hand combat as well.

Shuriken were originally used by the Samurai and "Ninja" as a distraction before a melee weapon was employed. Similar in strategy to the "poke and kick" attack of the O'Neill System (http://web.archive.org/web/20030202120537/www.gutterfighting.org/oneilltothenuts.html), i.e. an attack to the eyes as a brief distraction, followed by a kick in the nuts.

Shuriken really don't prove anything about using throwing knives in combat to kill someone (and using a knife in combat with anything less than lethal intent can get you killed), except maybe that pepper spray or a handful of dirt would be more worthwhile.

[Jacks Complete]

Obscure makes no difference to anyone in a street fight. By definition, you are already there. Whether you can face them down or not, that's the big question. You don't want to get into a fight, there aren't many exit strategies that leave you 100% well and without a CCTV video of you killing some assholes rather more efficiently than normal. Then you are neither obscure or fast enough, and more dependant on luck! If it turns out you were well-armed (in the UK at least) they will drop on you like a ton of bricks, even if it was merely a trained fist in self defence.

In the UK, running/avoiding/evading is the best option, bar none. Second is facing the trouble down, so that there is none. The rather poor third is winning the fight.

[Docca]

Obscure makes no difference to anyone in a street fight.

***

The rather poor third is winning the fight.

Agreed on all points.

My point about obscure was that Weaver, the Branch Davidians, Ted Kaczynski, Eric Rudolph, and countless others were pretty obscure (and therefore safe) until they drew the attention of the feds. All of these had thought it out pretty well and had contingency plans, but they all lost big time, due to the fact that they eventually drew the attention of the wrong people.

Obscurity allows one to avoid problems, as easier and higher profile targets usually present themselves. It is a form of evasion.

[nbk2000]

As any smart cop will tell you, when the police show up, there's always at least one gun at the scene...theirs! :)

When guns become the sole privilege of a police-state, freedom fighters get their guns off the bodies of dead cops and soldiers.

[Alexires]

Defendu -

Provided you can't sink a throwing knife to the hilt in his vitals with sufficient accuracy, he'll turn right around to face you and kill you.

That is why I'm training with them. I know that it would deprive you of a weapon, but if the situation calls for it, I'd rather be able to do it than not.

I don't think you are quite grasping what I'm trying to get at Defendu. I have nothing I HAVE to do during the day (no job, transport or anything). When the choice is sit around and do shit all, or throw some knives and shoot some arrows, I'll normally choose the later every time. I'm trying to say that it is better to know it than not, and when it is the only thing I can do then I'll do it.

Jacks Complete - I agree with you, running is the best option in any place, unless there is another reason you should fight.

NBK - A good point. This leads to the question of how hard do you think it would be to hit a police station for the weapons? Here (in Aus) the cops wouldnt have much more than pistols and body armour in their armoury I wouldnt think.

Beerwolf - I agree, there are certainly better ways sometimes than athletic skill. If you can walk though, I would recommend going for long walks. Doing anything is better than nothing.

[Defendu]

I'm trying to say that it is better to know it than not,

So you believe that you'll be more likely to survive a violent encounter/war if you're a "Jack of all trades", knowing how to throw knives, escape from every imaginable wrestling/BJJ hold etc, than if you spent more time perfecting the basics?

To quote a poster on the old gutterfighting.org Close Combat forum:

The Saturday Night Rant!

There are few men more feared than professional boxers. Forget the "fantasy" myths so prevalent in martial arts circles. A competent professional club fighter would massacre most martial artists. Hell, most serious amatuers would do the same. I'm not interested in the 1000 year old "secrets" of One Hung Lo. I know what I know after all these years. Regardless of whether anyone wishes to accept or deny the truth, the truth remains.

Why are boxers so good? What can we learn and HOW can we apply these lessons to our own training in close combat.

Well, first and foremost boxing makes you TOUGH. Hitting and being hit. Not giving in, training that HURTS! Balls! The strip mall studio may make you "sweat", Tae Bo may take off the "pounds", but it's NOT the same as HARD TOUGH training.
Forget about the "schools" that promise FUN, EASY, NON-INJUROUS SELF-DEFENSE! There ain't NO SUCH ANIMAL!

Secondly, boxers train in FEW skills, but to a HIGH degree of REALISTIC PROFICIENCY!

Lastly, boxing is pragmatic! NO ROOM FOR BULLSHIT!

Okay, so how do we apply this to OUR THING?

1. TRAIN HARD. Make contact, train with a real rough and tumble attitude! Eat the PAIN, it WON'T KILL YOU! Condition YOUR weapons! GET TOUGH(where did I hear that before?).
You had better grow some HARD BARK on your ass, if you hope to survive and prevail in a REAL STRUGGLE for LIFE and DEATH! Now I am NOT talking about BRUTALIZING anyone in training. THAT ain't what I'm talking about! I am saying that hard, realistic PROGRESSIVE training, will build TOUGHNESS, like proper weight training builds strength and power.

2. FEW SKILLS-HIGH PROFICIENCY. Hick's Law! K.I.S.S., same idea! Tiger Claw, Chin Jab, Edge of Hand, Elbows, Knees, Low Kicks and Stomps, Head Butts and a few assorted other nasty "chips", and YOU GOT ALL YOU NEED! I think that those who say they have "IMPROVED" - "REFINED" - "COMBINED" and any other nonsense, have simply MISSED THE POINT! Or feel compelled to add "Bullshit for Bucks"(NO that wasn't an old game show). The KEY again is HARD WORK! A boxer works his left jab into the GROUND, always striving for more POWER, SPEED, and ACCURACY. Right? So do the same with the Tigers Claw, Chin Jab, etc. Make these few skills THE absolute BEST they CAN BE!!!!!! Example: I don't need 2000 "waza", if I train my Tigers Claw to be so QUICK, so POWERFUL, so ACCURATE that there ain't a damn thing you can do to stop me from ripping your face off and knocking your block completely OFF YOUR FRIGGIN' SHOULDERS and IF THINK YOU CAN STOP ME I'LL STOMP YOUR DAMN WORTHLESS ASS INTO A BLOODY PUDDLE! Now that's the ATTITUDE! YOU DON'T IMPROVE THE METHOD - YOU IMPROVE THE MAN!!!!!!!

3. REALISTIC PRAGMATISM. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it sounds to good to be true, it is! Anything that can screw up will! We're all in this ALONE. No one's getting out of here alive. When your number is UP well it's UP! Getting THIS? People often say stupid things like: "What would you do if you had to fight Mike Tyson?". What are you talking about, stupid? If someone was going to harm your family, wife, loved ones or friends..........Would you look at the threat and say - Oh BOY he looks reallly tough, really dangerous, I might get HURT! Or would you tear into the THREAT with absolute bloody minded ruthless brutality fueled by abject hate and rage coupled with killing intent. Only YOU can answer that! But I'd much rather DIE on my feet, than LIVE on my knees!

All top combative athletes have a LIMITED number of methods that they have honed to perfection. They have a never say DIE attitude, they EAT PAIN, and they don't believe in the "Tooth Fairy". These are GOOD solid lessons for close combat! Get REAL, TRAIN REAL, STAY ALIVE!

The Saturday Night Rant! Have a GREAT WEEKEND ALL!

Carl

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021122094514/pub104.ezboard.com/fclosecombat82274frm9.showMessage?topicID=176.topi c

[BeerWolf]

Beerwolf - I agree, there are certainly better ways sometimes than athletic skill. If you can walk though, I would recommend going for long walks. Doing anything is better than nothing.
Oh I do walk every morning, and do such workouts as I can. But since I can't run away even if I want to, my strategy is mainly based on cunning and deception.

In a street fight, it is fast talking, use of vehicles, "dirty" fighting, and (currently legal) concealed firearms.

In some sort of Government "crackdown", well, if the SS wants you, they got you. I think the idea of running off to the hills is a somewhat silly idea even for an ablebodied person, here in the southwest USA. It's major desert. They'll find you eventually. The plan is to take as many with you as you can.

In some sort of TEOTWAWKI scene, I'd be logistics and ordnance support, not a front line fighter.

My $.02,YMMV, Comments welcome.
-BW

[Diabolique]

As some may have guessed, I am an old SOB geezer who has been there and done that. I was also a participant in the Southeast Asia 'fun and games' back in the 60's and 70's, as well as having 'fun' on the Korean DMZ. I have survived enough tight spots to eliminate a litter of cats, almost all of them because my life was in someone else's hands.

You do NOT want to know what it is like to feel a man thrash out his life on your knife. If at all possible, you want to avoid killing anyone by whatever means for whatever reason. A part of your humanity dies along with that person. You will no longer be the person you are now.

I am disabled, and need a walker, and soon may need a wheelchair. Due to my knowledge and experience, the authorities still consider me to be a very dangerous individual. Knowledge, with the time to prepare, will more than make up for any lack of physical ability.

The right mental attitude is your greatest asset for survival. Believing you can survive has won half the battle, and vastly improved your chances that you will survive.

When the authorities (police, FBI, Dept. of Homeland Security) knock on the door, they will do so in a manner that allows them to control the situation. Even if they just want to talk, it will be two to one. To take you in, it will be a raid at 3 or 4 am (if they are pros at this) with a 6:1 team. The reason is simple, they do not want to give you a chance to resist and possibly injure them.

When the time comes, have at least one place to hide that is completely disconnected from you, your family and friends. Most importantly, it must be disconnected from your personality. Be prepared to move at an instant's notice. Even if you have just a bad feeling, move out of the way. Paranoia, when they are coming for you, is your friend.

And remember, time is on there side. You will eventually make a mistake, and they will have you. Learn what you can now about intelligence and interogation techniques. Fear of the unknown is a common interogation tool. As long as you do not give in, you are winning.

Once in their hands, RESIST. If you cannot be intimidated, then those who would intimidate you become the ones who are intimidated. My brother, a police detective, says the majority of perps convict themselves by simply opening their mouths, trying to appear innocent. Your silence may be all that is needed for even a public defender to get you off, or a reduced sentence.

What do I do? I make myself very visable. When they do come, everyone will ask questions, particularly "What do you mean, this cripple is a dangerous terrorist?" This technique has worked, at least for a while, for other political disidents. I have few other options.

One last word. With Carnivore, just a casual visit to this site leaves footprints straight back to you. If the authorities desire, they know who each of us is very quickly. Living in a foreign land helps little. Echelon is a system for sharing intelligence between the world's authorities. The U.S. has even shared intelligence with Syria on a quid pro quo basis.

I appologize for being a wet blanket at the party. When the Dark Times come, the only way to survive with any degree of freedom is to not be on the radar screen. Failing this, avoid being found. Once they know where you are, your freedom will last only as long as it is convenient to them.

[Alexires]

Defendu - I'm getting tired of this. If you want to keep arguing about it, lets do it off the forum, you can get my email address from the little link there.

I agree with that attitude though. Maybe a tad too brazen for me, there are times to bow your head and kneel if it helps to win the fight, but certainly only hard training will improve your skills.

BeerWolf - Nothing wrong with logistics and support, your the guy we all would be counting on. In certain fights, skills only take you so far. After that, you need someone to watch your ass for you.

Diabolique - I personally like the theory that as long as you believe in your own victory, you will prevail, no matter what the odds. There is always a way to win, often people can't see it because they aren't willing to even consider doing the necessary, let alone actually do it. If you are willing to do anything to assure your own survival, I believe that you will survive at all odds.

When the Dark Times come, standing alone will be hardest of all. We are a member of this website for a reason and this brings us together, as much as sometimes we don't like to admit it. If the Dark Times do come, I just hope we are all ready.

ANYWAY! Back to the basic fitness. So far we have Skean Dhu saying 100 push ups, 200 sit ups, a fairly fast dash, 10 pull ups and 100 squats. As well as this, basic knowledge in a hand to hand combat and proficientcy in various weapons. What do you all have to say to that? Anything else that should be added, changed or removed?

A question for you all out there: When it isn't possible to train with real guns, would paintballing be better than nothing? That may be the only option available to us in Aus who aren't old enough, or aren't willing enough to go through all the red tape and get a firearms license.

[BeerWolf]

.. question for you all out there: When it isn't possible to train with real guns, would paintballing be better than nothing?
Yes, indeed. My ol' lady and I train force on force in house defense with 6mm airsoft guns resembling our carry guns. You can use hard shot in places where paint isn't allowed, and the only safety gear needed is glasses (which we both wear anyway:) )

In reference to the rest of your post, what I'm saying is that I feel you'all putting to much emphasis on doing X# of pushups, and y# of situps, etc.

Train your body and mind to the best of your abilities, and remember that those abilities change with time. Usually downhill for the physical, and (hopefully) upward for knowledge .

Don't say that you have to do ANY number of an exercise as an arbitrary goal. Just do as many as you can without hurting yourself, and try to make it as better as you can.
-My $.02 Your Milage WILL vary!
-BW

[Diabolique]

Paintball would be an excellant way to learn team tactics. The Army uses a laser tag system out at Ft. Irwin in California.

The physical fitness training should fit the expected mission. While in the Army, I could just pass the physical fitness (PT) test, and always had a hard time with the 2-mile run. But hiking across the desert and up over a 600 meter mountain with a 55 kilo backpack, few could keep up with only a 10 kilo backpack. I also could lift and hold over my head a 200 kilo antenna trailer while the team secured the support legs.

Personnally, I would recommend individual resistance, or a very small group consisting of family and long term friends. Less likely to have a turn-coat. This is why our intel people have so much trouble infiltrating the terror groups. A single individual only has to worry about himself. An interesting SciFi novel, "Wasp", explains the concept of individual resistance.

Learn surveilance and counter-surveilance techniques. However, most of these are obsolete with the widespread use of video surveilance cameras. The publicly available cameras are very small, so you can imagine what the authorities have.

You may have misunderstood me, I do not advocate surrender, but rather avoidance. If you can avoid confrontation, that is a face to face with the authorities, you will also avoid chancing being detained or injured. If you are not known to be a potential threat, you drop off their radar, and will be free do do what you need to do.

Combining psychological techniques with your operations will make them more effective. Thankfully, terrorists do not understand the principles of using terror as a weapon. They brute-force terror. In the late 70's, I terrorized a battalion of Marines on Viaques with a psy-op broadcast on landcrabs devouring shipwreaked sailors. I let their imaginations amplify the clicking of the landcrabs into a dire threat. Another program I wrote I was forbidden to use, they were afraid of a wide-spread panic. Neither had any real threat to anyone's well being, they played on primal fears.

I'll look for my manuals on PT for you, and digitize them.

As for the original question, find a technical field you enjoy that ISN'T combat arms. Make sure that the contract you sign states you are going into that field, or you will find yourself cannonfodder. You will be given training in combat and weapons, but you will also have training in a field that you can use as a profession once you get out. And read all the manuals you can lay hands on. That is how I learned so much about so much.

[anonymous411]

"When the time comes, have at least one place to hide that is completely disconnected from you, your family and friends. Most importantly, it must be disconnected from your personality. Be prepared to move at an instant's notice. Even if you have just a bad feeling, move out of the way. Paranoia, when they are coming for you, is your friend."

Everything you say is true, but when you're on the run, sleep-deprived, and amped on adrenaline, paranoia can be a BITCH. When you're a fugitive, everyone starts to look like a fed. Then you start getting sloppy, acting weird, and it all goes downhill from there.

There's nothing more important than doing everything you can to keep a sense of perspective. Don't be too quick to assume you know what's happening and why: it's all too easy to misjudge situations under extreme stress.

More tips to build on what Diabolique said: have a proactive plan, not just a reactive one. Stay calm and try to introduce as much "normality" as you can into your new environment. Exercise, eat as well as you can and take a strong multivitamin to keep your strength up. Stay as well-groomed, calm, and as friendly as you can be.

Believe it or not, all these things will improve your confidence and morale. The most important thing is not to let them bully you into thinking of yourself as prey. Know you have it in you to survive the situation...and if not, at least you'll know you have the dignity to meet your fate with panache.

[Diabolique]

You're right, anonymous411. That is why the military makes training so intense, especially for elite forces, they learn to deal with that stress.

I was a misfit when I was young as I am now. The local bullies decided I needed a lesson, and chased me through the woods where I lived. I learned a lot about escape and evasion, and earned their respect for evading them so effectively.

The one thing I learned is that you get lonely, and even an opponent's company is welcome, which is why I gave up after about 10 hours. That is also to be kept in mind, the need for company.

It wasn't until I was older that I learned to enjoy solitude, and not to depend on others for strength. That was after a very dark night long ago in a land far away. Dark nights like that, you and others learn where your true strength lays, and what your values are. Nietzsche was right, but only about mental strength.

[robh1540]

In a street fight or mugging etc. is it not more about being prepared and your willingness to injur people that would count rather than your overall fitness? For example, in most muggings or fights, the people aren't actually wanting to seriously injur, they more want to intimidate them into getting what they want, or in the case of a fight look macho.

Around where I live people ('gangstaz') only tend to fight when the odds are stacked in their favour (4 or more on 1) therefore no matter how physically fit someone was it wouldn't have much of a bearing on the outcome. Far more important would be how crazy they were.

[lider_revolucionario]

Here in my town the "gangstaz" never fight while they are without a great advantage too, but something that happens with this kind of people is to be scared if you demonstrate some skills like martial arts. At least with these scumbags if you show something probably they will get out.
I think that even you are not a black-belt, knowing some techniques like aikido may help with them. Specially these guys stay scared when see their friend being thrown :)
But I also believe that avoid combat is better than running the risk. it is better to they think you are coward than being a "bird in a cage" or a new kind of carpaccio:D

[Chris The Great]

No matter how cray you are, if you aren't strong enough to hit hard, it won't matter. Being able to fight is never just one aspect, but a combination of everything. Lacking in an important aspect such as strength will hurt you. Just because physical strength is not the only bearing on a fight does not mean it should be ignored.

[lider_revolucionario]

No matter how cray you are, if you aren't strong enough to hit hard, it won't matter. Being able to fight is never just one aspect, but a combination of everything. Lacking in an important aspect such as strength will hurt you. Just because physical strength is not the only bearing on a fight does not mean it should be ignored.
USE
Being strong also helps in intimidating the oponent, common guys would be afraid in fighting to a muscle mountain. I also agree that someone that knows every move that only a Great Master knows, but don't have strenght, will be useless knowing all that.
PARAGRAPH
The point is(As an chinese said someday... :) ) : the balance is more important.
BREAKS
if you are a mountain of muscles (like The Terminator in old days... :) ) you will punch the guys very hard, they will be scared if they see you in fury because of your size, but if fight is not an option, like being followed by a huge group of skilled killers, you will need more agility and inteligence than muscles to try evade. And more muscles (after a point) are bad for your agility.
TO
The best is to be strong and agile, train technics of fighting (including with weapons) and shooting. Like that you can run away, stay for a fight, if needed, improvise a weapon and use it with some skill against an (normally) unskilled oponent, and get a firearm and shot adequatedly.
SEPERATE
Of course what I say demands time and some money. It is much more easy to get muscles than fighting skills, but fight is more flexible in its usages and can be used to direct combat and to avoiding combat.
DIFFERENT
For all this I say that if you can have some training in a martial art, it is better to have it.
TRAINS
It is good also for your health and to prevent diseases :D
OF
Just to complete, it also helps you in other things like concentration and endurance. If you can run 10 miles, be focused enought to lockpick fastly and hide yourself safely during a storm, that is better than run 10 miles and break a door and hide while the winds of the storm are seeking you and find a door down. The wind will come in and the rain will fall in your head outside the hideout.
THOUGHT!

[robh1540]

I see what you say about strength, but think how weak you would have to be to not hurt someone with a punch to the neck. I think that even the weakest 18+ year old would be able to take someone out with a punch to the adams apple.

[BeerWolf]

It also takes very little to stick you thumbs in his eyes. (amongst other "dirty" fighting tricks)

I don't consider it "dirty", as there's no 2nd place trophy in this game.
-BW

[cutefix]

Fighting an aggressor in the streets requires more agility than physical strenght, calmness, and awareness of your capabilities. Yes it requires that you are prepared for such events...
BTW
These aggressors are usually mentally weak personalities and they want to hide that by bullying what they construe as weaker people....

[Alexires]

robh1540 and Beerwolf - I get what your saying, but if they are wearing glasses and have their head tilted down to prevent that? It is possible that you may be able to do that, but at the very least pushups every second night will mean you can actually hit someone and hurt them.

But to support Beerwolf and robh1540, I find that if someone is going to attack you to make a point, they normally start with the chest pushing thing (where they push their chest at you). A quick application of genital force will take them to the ground and out. Problem with that is that for this to happen, they will almost always have mates. You need to be prepared to take them ALL down.

Actually, saying that, I'm supporting the opinion that you need to be able to run, and hit/kick hard. The funny thing is that in 2-3 vs 1 training, it is the 2 or 3 that get hurt, not the 1.

You will need training (either in a martial art, or by sparring a few people at once) to know that when you are in that situation, the person you hit wont get up for more when you least expect it.

I'm absolutely adamant on that. If you decide that you are the kind of person that might get into a fight with someone(s), you NEED to train in multiple attackers. The ability to identify helpful cover (walls, benches, etc) is learned, not natural in this situation.

It's hard to explain, you need to do it to understand.

So hence, I still maintain that a minimal amount of training is required for those that can. You see fights in the street where people get punched in the head multiple times and they are still standing. This is just sad. 2 decent punches as a max should take an average person down. Train to do this.

Cutefix - agility is definately a must, but you don't get it without some training (for those that think they can).


Think about it this way. If you are confronted by dickhead and his 5 mates. You take dickhead down as a matter of course with a swift knee into the testicles. Suddenly there are 5 mates that, because of their clingy personality (they hero worship dickhead as if the sun rose out of his ass) won't back down.

They will probably come at you. You need to isolate one at a time, so in essence, you are looking at a fight that will go for 5 times longer than a normal 1vs1 + the time it takes for a little manouvering.

Going 5 minutes in a full combat situation is damn hard. Without training, you will be stuffed, and the problem then becomes that dickhead's 5 mates are all fresh. When you are in that situation, you need to be absolutely brutal and make sure that if you take one dickhead down, he wont get up until after the fight, if at all.

You need to be able to stay on your feet. If you go to the ground before the last attacker, you WILL lose.

[robh1540]

Sorry, I my have not been very clear, I wasnt saying that no training was neccessary, and I do myself train regularly and begin at army college on wednesday.

The point I was trying to make is that no matter how big you are, if you arent in the mindframe to fight, and go into the fight punching people in the chest or face, then someone smaller and weaker than yourself who was in the mindframe to hurt you and attacked your weakest points, neck, nose, eyes, genitals then it is highly likely that you would not come off on top. Having said this I doubt in this forum not being in the right frame of mind is really an issue as most people here are fairly consciencious about their self preservation.

As regards to fighting multiple attackers I seem to remember reading in a book on karate and self defense that even the best fighter cannot hope to beat two determined opponents.

[cutefix]

Lets put it this way the practical purpose of good physical training is that you can maintain a sound health and able to use that preparation to enter martial arts training. If you really want to be and effective streetfighter you really have to indulge in continuous sparring with your fellow students, enter martial arts competitions etc. You don't stick with pride on your technique that your teacher is so well known about but what is effective for you.

Keep in mind just like physical fitness , practical martial arts training is about commonsense.
Yes there are devotees that study it for that reason but they are not common .

Once you have enough fighting skill you can defend yourself instinctively.
you can't even plan how to defend yourself.
You are there calm and collected with no fear in your mind. You don't harbor thoughts that you will win or lose, but your prepared like a cat.
That kind of mental state is the best frame of mind for combat.
You don't say that i will het this guy in the groin with my knee, gouge his eyes with my fingers, cut his windpipe with a karate chop etc...

When you are in the heat of un armed combat, you have no time to think, everything just comes out by instinct!:cool:
You don't know how the guys are knocked out,,, but you don't care as long as they are down for good .:cool:


But
If before the streetfight you are already afraid ,or worried that you might get hurt or get killed then don't be cocky use your feet and ran as fast as you can!:p
There is no point in fighting with anybody if you lack the will and the confidence to do so regardless of your training.
Many people may be proud of their martial arts training but often they have difficulty defending themselves in critical situations....
Then their sound physical and martial arts training was useless.:rolleyes:

Agility is often taken less seriously by many fighters, thinking that its just that technique that wins , but if sumo wrestlers and other bulky fighters win contest not only due to their enormous body size but due to being agile then its imperative that any body looking forward to martial arts combat , should realize its importance in winning fights and preventing yourselfs from getting mauled.if you happen to encounter stronger oppositions.
You can use that flexibility of movement to get away from trouble.

[Alexires]

Cutefix - You've hit the nail on the head. When you are in that situation there is no thought, only action. You don't plan your movements, it just happens.

But there is an instinctive knowledge gleaned from sparring. You know that what you just did to that person means they won't get up again, and if they do, there is something weird happening.

robh1540 - Sorry, I missunderstood. You are correct, you need to be in the right mind set.

I don't know about that multiple attacker thing you said.

I haven't ever been in a real multiple attacker combat situation, but in some pretty intense sparring, I know that 2 attackers is ok, 3 isn't good, and above that your in trouble.

You see, any smart pair or trio of attacker will spread themselves out so that they are an equal distance apart in a circle, and attack you at once. If they do this, you are in trouble.

The trick to stopping it is to take down 1 or 2 of them as fast as you can so you can pay attention to the other one.

Personally (I have done 3 years of Wing Chun Kung Fu and 6 months of Ninjutsu) I feel that I could take down 3 attacker who have no skill in martial arts. Their downfall is that they watch each other, when they should be watching me (their target).

If they have training, a general rule is that you can take as many as long as their sum training is below yours. Hence, I could take 3 attackers with only 6 months training, as that adds up to 1.5 years. Only in one dicipline though.

[Jome skanish]

One suggestion of basic fitness could be able to bench-press 75kg (165lbs) and run three kilometers in less than 15 minutes, the latter is demanded by the swedish military for certain groups of conscripts, the first is the "theoretical average" of an average-height, average weight man.
Being at least on parity with most other guys is recommended when it comes to fighting.

From there, both aerobic capacity and muscle mass can be increased for everyone who is not crippled or has something seriously wrong with his genes.

A man of average height could build his body at least forty, perhaps even fifty percent stronger than average without the extra muscle making it harder to move fast. Aerobic performance is harder to judge the same way (since the difference is not that big when it comes to longer runs), but my own goal is to be able to run 3km in under 13 minutes, simultaneously having increased general strength to 40% more than average for my height, which is 1.75. Being able to run very fast for a few hundred meters is also useful, but I have no reference to what one could do within a reasonable ammount of training.

When it comes to weapons, I'd say it pays to be able to use both "legal" weapons like a Mag-lite, improvise ones like spears and to some degree use illegal ones like a gun (I envy Americans...). Although I cannot imagine it exists "flashlight-figthing" schools, a thought over defense strategy and well rehearsed movements could do wonders.

Pistols are rare in this country, and the crimmies with arms are unlikely to have trained enough to shoot reasonably straight. A licence for pistols is more or less limited to police officers and members of shooting-clubs, even requiering this-and-that many hours of practice every year. Also, one has to own a safe to store the gun, and if I've understood it right the mag has to be stored in another safe, elsewhere. So, owning a gun is a bigger advantage here, but getting there is a bitch and a half.

As for running from/fighting the police? Hell, even here in Swe I wouldn't try that, even though cops here are not known to come in 12 cars and shooting you for holding keys in your hand. I'd be off to another country fast as a fly if things started to fuck up here with random arrests and shit.

[Ropik]

I would say:
-3 km run under 14 minutes
-100 meters dash under 15 seconds
-Jump with a running start over a 110 centimeters high obstacle(not for the benefit of jumping like a madman, but for indicating you have enough "spring" in your legs)
-40+ km hike a day with a resonable weight(15-20 kg) without being half dead the second day
Things above are "minimal sound demands" in my opinion and should be improved.
-Some training in unarmed combat, knife, stick and flexible weapons fighting, ideally to the degree of being able to grab a thing from the pavement/table/whatever and use it effectively
-At least basic training in shooting both long and short weapons(you knows the rule about bringing knives into gunfights...) and at least theoretic ability to use explosives, make boobytraps, et cetera. Remember, when you are outnumbered and outgunned, boobytraps are very viable way to go.
-Some knowledge about night movements, navigation, basic soldiering, knots, survival, evasion etc. To everybody his own...
-Also, some basic handyness with tools is required IMO. Nobody will do repairs for other people when the smelly stuff hits the fan.


Jome skanish: Check "Flashlight fighting" by Phil Elmore.

[Sausagemit]

A lot of times the shock of seeing one of your buddies go down can be enough to distract one to the point forgetting to fight and also the sheer shock that one guy is going to kick all of your asses because you didn't see it coming. That is a great way to win a fight against 3 or more untrained attackers.

Just like this video, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8202008483113221283&q=mike+vallely&hl=en.

And keep in mind that Mike Vallely has just basic boxing knowledge. He just has the mindset that he will and can kick the utter living shit out of anybody and everybody even though he has had his ass kicked a couple of times in fights that he started with security gaurds and the such. And he even voluntarily had his ass kicked by Kip Brennan the hockey player.

[cutefix]

Yes, in real fighting,,,you must be prepared and strong enough to accept the blows of your adversary that is an important reason that full contact sparring is a good training.
In higher form of martials arts training, the ability to endure pain is part of the training regimen...
If you have a weak threshold for pain then you better ask yourself if you are really serious with martials art training.:p