Burning Anti-Freeze (and other nominal fuels)

[nbk2000]

I ran fire fighting training at Keck headquarters and comparison tests at
the summit where the telescope is located. Kerosene flash point equates to
about a -10 degree F lowering from the normal sea-level flashpoint of around
105 F. At sea level the pan of kerosene took 25-30 seconds to ignite with a
road flare in an ambient temperature of 78 F. However at the summit, with an
ambient temperature of 38 F, the kerosene ignited in less than 5 seconds!!
This prompted further testing and research of several volatiles. In every
case the materials ignited significantly sooner.

In discussions with NSF, FAA, and NIST fire research groups, it was
determined that the dominant feature is probably the loss of the nitrogen
heat sink and change in vaporization pressure. This is a very serios problem
for those of us working at high altitude, particularly since we use various
solvents, glycols, etc. Yes, antifreeze burns very well at high altitude and
can be lit with only a match.

Currently, we are preparing to run some more controlled tests on volatility
changes, but I could send you information on what results I do have.
Moreover, I would be very interested in any information others may have on
the same subject.

Be careful.

Larry Olsen
Safety Officer
W.M. Keck Observatory
Mauna Kea, HI


Now that is very interesting.

Normally, you can't get anti-freeze to burn, except in an already hot fire.

But, but reducing the pressure, you increase it's volatility (assumably) to a high enough point to where it becomes ignitable by only a match.

I'm thinking a container is half-filled with the fluid (any normally difficult to ignite fuel), and pumped down with a vacuum pump to an equivalent of high-altitude.

Then, by means of a squib or such, the fuel is ignited inside the container, and the top removed in an expedient manner, allowing the now lit fuel to be dispersed.

[Hirudinea]

Now that is very interesting.

Normally, you can't get anti-freeze to burn, except in an already hot fire.

But, but reducing the pressure, you increase it's volatility (assumably) to a high enough point to where it becomes ignitable by only a match.

I'm thinking a container is half-filled with the fluid (any normally difficult to ignite fuel), and pumped down with a vacuum pump to an equivalent of high-altitude.


This could also have applications to terrorist attacks on airplanes, the presure being low in the passanger cabin and ever lower in the cargo hold. Anti-Freeze in a presurized water/pop bottle in a suit case with a radio holding an igniter trigered by liquid and when it reached the height the bottle explodes and the trigger sets off the fluid and boom! (Or at least a fire.)

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

If you honestly believe "terrorists" are to blame for things... do us a favor and don't reproduce.

[c.Tech]

Anti-Freeze in a presurized water/pop bottle in a suit case with a radio holding an igniter trigered by liquid and when it reached the height the bottle explodes and the trigger sets off the fluid and boom! (Or at least a fire.)

It would cause a small fire, nothing drastic and it would just be put out in near no time.

If it could be used as an explosive device then cars would be blowing up left right and center when they turn the ignition because petrochemicals are more volatile at standard pressure than anti-freeze is at lower pressure.

To cause a fuel to explode you need some form of oxygen (air isn’t enough) for it to combust at a great speed.

Those explosions you see in the movies are completive bullshit. A car roles over and BOOM. WOW sounds like a car crash to me :rolleyes:.

For a cars petrol tank to explode it first needs to catch of fire (from leakage and ignition) then cause a BLEVE (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/other-explosives/391-gas-explosions-archive-file.html?highlight=BLEVE).

[Hirudinea]

Oh I'm sorry, I should have said the Tri-laterial Commission, the Illumanati and the Greys, time to up your throazine. :)

[w22shadow]

If you honestly believe "terrorists" are to blame for things... do us a favor and don't reproduce. It would be nice if people whom use fallacious reasoning would not either. :p

[Hirudinea]

Anti-Freeze in a presurized water/pop bottle in a suit case with a radio holding an igniter trigered by liquid and when it reached the height the bottle explodes and the trigger sets off the fluid and boom! (Or at least a fire.)


It would cause a small fire, nothing drastic and it would just be put out in near no time.

If it could be used as an explosive device then cars would be blowing up left right and center when they turn the ignition because petrochemicals are more volatile at standard pressure than anti-freeze is at lower pressure.



Oh, well in that case it seems my career as a terrorist is off to a poor start. Anyway the interesting thing about this is the way pressure effects the properties of chemical reactions, have you heard they're using liquid CO2 under pressure for enviromently dry cleaning? Now that would be an interesting explosion, flying, frozen underware! :eek:

[c.Tech]

have you heard they're using liquid CO2 under pressure for enviromently dry cleaning? Now that would be an interesting explosion, flying, frozen underware! :eek:

Your not serious are you?

[TreverSlyFox]

I spent quite a few years on a Volunteer Fire Department and probably answered a hundred or more "Car Fire" calls. Not once have I ever observed a car's gas tank "Explode". Usually it blows off the gas cap, a tongue of flame jets from the filler pipe and you hear a "whoomp" sound and the tank gets expanded a little "rounder".

We were always more afraid of the tires exploding, now those would blow off fenders and toss chunks for yards. Fifteen feet away a 1' x 10" chunk will dislocate your shoulder, which will cause you to drop the 2" hose and soak down the Chief. It's funny now but at the time it wasn't and I can now forcast rain with that shoulder.

[c.Tech]

I spent quite a few years on a Volunteer Fire Department and probably answered a hundred or more "Car Fire" calls. Not once have I ever observed a car's gas tank "Explode".

When I said "cars would be blowing up left right and center when they turn the ignition" I was giving an example of what would happen if anti-freeze could be used as a terrorist weapon.

If that wasn’t what you were saying, I apologize.

Thank you for giving more evidence that fuels can not be used as a terrorist weapon. :)

[nbk2000]

Anti-freeze doesn't normally burn because it's diluted with 50% water, and not being ignited at 3 miles above sea-level.

But pure, and under reduced pressure, it IS combustible.

[the_twitchy1]

I wonder, though, if the combustion of antifreeze would be exothermic enough to maintain itself once you returned the pressure to normal? I mean, at that point you are back to dealing with the nitrogen heatsink in the equation. If the fire is not producing enough heat to overcome that effect, end of fire. That, in turn, limits the usefulness of this fuel...

[Hirudinea]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirudinea
have you heard they're using liquid CO2 under pressure for enviromently dry cleaning? Now that would be an interesting explosion, flying, frozen underware!


Your not serious are you?

About using liquid CO2 as for "Dry Cleaning" or flying, frozen underware? As for the CO2 yes, I remember hearing a while back that somebody was investigating using CO2 under pressure as a replacement for present day dry cleaning because the chemicals (Preclorethylene?) today are toxic and CO2 under pressure is an ideal cleaner and (except if you breath too much as gas) not harmful to people. As for the flying, frozen underware, well I'ed assume if a pressure vessel containing liquid CO2 had a catastrophic failure the clothes inside would be blown out and because of the cold produced by the expanding CO2 the clothes would probably become frozen, so yea, I guess I'm serious about the FFU too. :D

[Sausagemit]

Thanks for the info NBK.

I'm going to have to do some experimenting with this stuff seeing as how I have access to high altitude places that are within an hour of my house.

Where I live it's at about 7,250 feet (11.5 to 12 psi) but I can be up at about 9,500 feet in about 20 min or up at about 11,500 feet in about an hour.

[nbk2000]

You should also try glycol-based brake fluids.

[Sausagemit]

I just tried some glycol-based brake fluid seeing as how I have some of that stuff lying around.

Right now the atmospheric pressure is at 791.8 mb (11.48 psi).

I put about 30 ml in a porcelain bowl with a thermometer hanging out one side of it and then proceded to hit it with the propane torch. It got up to about 40-50 deg C (couldn't really tell seeing as how it's day time and I couldn't find my good thermometer, or about 30 sec of torching) before it reached combustion temp. And after it ignited it just kept heating up and burning quicker. The 30 ml stayed burning a good 15 min from ignition and put off a lot of heat.

Next week sometime I'm going to go get some anti-freeze and head up to the mountains. I think some friends are planning on going camping up there next week so mabye I can show them a new quick and easy way to start a campfire. :D

[IronMongrel]

have you heard they're using liquid CO2 under pressure for enviromently dry cleaning?

I believe it's call "super critical fluid extraction". Ii'ts also used in the perfume industry for obtaining very high purity plant oils.

You can extract THC from low grade weed using this method, but it's a bit dodgy as it involves injecting huge amounts of butane into a tube and collecting the run off in a bowl, when you evaporate the butane away you end up with a very high purity oil, or at least that's the theory.

Leeds university sell a unit which I believe costs about £10,000 or $18,000.

http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/People/CMR/nav.html

Sorry for going so off topic, I did a search and couldn't see anything on this field, though I'm not a chemist I thought some here might find this an interesting method.