starting them young

[jellywerker]

This topic is not about my children or anything, I am the young one.

I discovered this forum about 2 years ago, and have been reading quite aggressively on it lately, and venturing to make a few posts. I have now a question for the mods and more advanced and older users here.

I am not of college age, and if I was, do not desire to major in chemistry, having other plans for my life, but I am interested as a hobbyist in chemistry. I am wondering where to begin my education, aside from this site. I was thinking checking out chemistry courses from the library would be a good beginning, seeing as taking the chemistry class at my local high school would be a waste of time. At my age, money is also something of an issue, so whatever I do do/put together, it will have to be on something of a shoestring budget. I am 15, and am not interested in creating any explosive compounds in any quantities larger than enough for a proof of ability test (think a few grams) or anything similar, but I do want to put together enough equipment and books (pdf or printed) to build a firm base in chemistry, up to at least a level of competence similar to that of a college sophomore, of course with less beer and more sense :p

I hope the mods are not angry with my disclosure of my age, especially as it will probably lessen anything I say in the eyes of the forum users here, but I would rather be known to be 15 and start off on the right foot in chemistry than have people think I am 25 and not have a foot. I am yours to mold (to a point :cool: ) and hope to get some solid answers on some good introductory reading and experiments.

[megalomania]

I applaud your initiative in learning chemistry on your own terms. I suggest you find a university website at a larger school and see if you can find a syllabus for a gen chem. course and an organic chemistry course. Find out what textbooks the class recommends and buy those textbooks, used, from a discount online vendor or fleabay.

Amazon may also help you find popular titles of chemistry textbooks. Start with a general chemistry textbook, get a Schaum’s Outline for chemistry, and if you are really lucky find some online notes from a university professor’s class website. A lab manual for organic chemistry can be tremendously helpful if you plan on doing anything with your new chemistry knowledge.

Also, check out ebooksclub.org and sign up for a free membership. They have the largest collection of pirated ebooks I have ever seen. Steer away from the advanced technical books and focus on the textbooks for now. Many modern chemistry textbooks are available there.

http://www.ureg.ohio-state.edu/courses/Winter/book3/B100.htm
http://undergrad-ed.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/
http://www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/~woodward/chem_121.htm

Keep in mind that modern chemistry textbooks will not actually teach you how to do anything practical! Modern textbooks are all theory, vague reactions, and definitions. They will teach you the discourse of the chemist, introduce you to the concepts, and start you along the path of basic skills and mathematical manipulations. Only older pre WWII textbooks include actual examples of how to make chemicals in the lab. Modern lab manuals teach technique and functional group transformation; what chemical you are making is largely irrelevant.

[Chris The Great]

Well, as a self-taught chemist (now entering university and studying chemistry) I can recommend that you get both more recent textbooks and download many of the older pre-WWII textbooks (sciencemadness.org has a library with many of these books all in one place).

The newer textbooks will explain the theory and mechanisms behind the reactions quite well. It won't give you any practical details on the reactions, but you will have a solid understanding of what one can do and why that happens, etc.
The older textbooks will provide all the practical examples of the reactions so that you can carry them out yourself.

Combined, you not only have a solid understanding of the theory behind everything, but also practical knowledge of how to apply that theory.

[Sausagemit]

My highschool chem/physics/science reasearch teacher was awsome. We acctually made fireworks the first week of class in science reasearch!! But alas, teachers like this are going the way of the dodo bird.

And if I were you I would start on some physics/dynamics too. Just basic motion concepts, nothing like kinematic relationsips or anything too advanced. Because you would probabbly want to know how far, fast, and high a projectile went. This stuff is simple and one can be pretty knowledgeable on the subjects within a couple of weeks or less. And here is a good place to start.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/mechanics/motion-equations/

I know when I was your age I was all into making stuff fly with propelents and various other stuff, wheather it be a pop bottle alcohol rocket or a glass marble through 3/4 inch plywood.

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

As was said, begin by reading general chemistry books and working your way up to organic chemistry. It might be helpful to follow an Advanced Placement study guide which one can track down on google. This is a high school course program designed to help prepare students for college chemistry and, from my experience, can teach one a great deal about general chemistry. It even entails the lab experiments to help one understand the material, making it great for understanding lab processes. After you feel truly comfortable with the material, and I think the best way to achieve that is to read, read, and then read some more and after that solve as many problems as you are up to. It will only help you understand the theory better. As for moving up to organic chemistry, I learned from what is today probably the universal standard in college organic chemistry courses, John Mcmurry's 6th edition of Organic Chemistry. You can pick it up online for a reasonable price and this baby can really teach you a lot, and it also works well with Williamson's Macroscale and Microscale Organic Experiments, a great lab reference.

[jellywerker]

Sausagemit: I am already in the top level physics class at my school (which has the best teacher, he makes you THINK! a rarity in my lack of experience), and have a pretty good base there, for distance, speed, energy, mass, etc... Although I won't be doing to much with projectiles I think.

Chris: Thanks, and it's good to know of another person self-teaching themselves and having it accepted at a college.

Mega: Again, thank you. I'm currently researching the chemistry courses at the University of Washington, as my brother will be attending this quarter and can get me pamphlets on textbooks, supplies, web adresses with notes and syllabuses, etc... I know they have them, as an aquaintance is studying mechanical engineering there and when considering a major found them for every class.

I've registered at the book link you gave, and wow, do they have a dizzying selection! I'll wait till I get some more info to download anything, as I am hoping I can get the textbooks used by the UW. I am also hoping (although this is something of a long shot) to be able to find someone through my brother that is a first year chem major, and follow along with a class he is taking, discussing it when we can, etc... We'll see how that works out though.

As for equipment and chemicals, I intend to buy what I need when I need it, and simply accumulate a small amount of equipment over time, this will keep down costs and reduce unnecessary clutter. Plus, with some more reading, I have realised that it really doesn't take too much stuff to make and test quite a few things, only a few beakers, a basic distilling setup, a scale and some graduated cylinders, perhaps some test tubes for small experiments, and a few tools (burner, thermometer, hydrometer, scale, etc...) But hell, I could get a titration setup and start looking into biodiesel, another interest of mine. I want to get a diesel rabbit, convert the fuel lines and be french fry oil powered. Screw the Saudis!

Speaking of equipment however, how necessary is a fumehood? I read things about chemicals like nitric acid and others are quite corrosive and extremely unhealthy, if not fatal, so for small scale stuff, would a setup of 3x 120mm pc fans built into a rectangle and, using formed sheet metal, attached to somthing like a dryer vent hose be suitable? The setup could be positioned directly over whatever was being worked on and the hose could simply be draped out a window (although a less visible window would seem best, brown fumes coming out of a building are hardly ever taken as a good sign).

One last thing, although somewhat offtopic. I was looking around at equipment, and saw some tiny test tubes, apparently called Durham tubes. These are 12x55m (.4in x 2.1in) tubes, and you can get rubber caps that fit them. It seems they are used to detect gases created by microorganisms, but that isn't what I am thinking they could be used for. Would this not be a good size for a homemade, uniformly sized (and packed and measured due to their transparent nature) blasting cap? A fuse (or wire, depending on your means of ignition) is inserted into the rubber cap, the appropriate explosives added to the tube (bp + ap, etc... you use what is appropriate) and the cap is pressed tightly (but gently, even a few grams of an he in your hand that is friction sensitive is deep layers of skin or tips of your fingers gone) and you have a nice uniform cap.

Of course, I may have my dimensions all messed up, as it seems many of you don't make enough of a substance to even bury this cap, and so must use very tiny caps (?) or something, but this seemed intriguing to me.

[Alexires]

At 15, you should be in Yr 10. At about that time (in Aus) they start to teach a little about Acids/Bases and naming alcohols and the other simple organic compounds.

As much as your teacher may be a cock head, read your Chem book, and listen to what he/she says. I have found that I hated the teacher, but what he taught came in use later.

After that, borrow the Yr 11-12 Chem book, and read a little, then get ftp access and read the first year university organic chem book there.

Learning just the basics at the moment will be enough. If you are willing to put in a few hours a week, you will be doing very well by the beginning of next year.


Make sure you have a solid foundation, there is nothing worse than reading something a little advanced and forgetting the difference between ethane/ethene/ethyne.

Also, get a grasp on the laws of motion (kinetic and potential energy) and by extension momentum and gravity, as well as the Mole Concept (Avogadro's Number).

[jellywerker]

Alexires: I don't have a chem teacher, as I am not taking a class at the public school, but as for my physics teacher (the one I mentioned) he is an excellent teacher, and clearly not to be mistaken for a phallus.

As for your other instruction, thank you. I'll see what I can do about borrowing books from the high school, as having printed material I can have next to me while doing something would be helpful.

For your information, I am in the U.S., so with my birthday I should be in grade 9, but due to having parents with some insight, I was homeschooled up until the last half of last year, giving me the opportunity to progress rapidly, and am now enrolled as a junior in the public high school, that is, grade 11, but with enough credits to graduate early in december :D so after this quarter I can graduate or take any elective classes I want.

I'll probably take the courses, as it's free education, and with no credit requirements I can set my schedule up to acommodate myself. I would also be loth to enter college at such a young age, not being able to transport myself beyond my bike, able to get a decent part time job, and being physically disadvantaged for sports, being a still growing teen and all, compard to the 18, 19, and 20 year olds that are the other freshmen. I intend to do some math (to keep it fresh in my mind for testing) and chemistry, along with welding. Unfortunately my high school doesn't have any classes truly relating to my future career field (design/architecture), so besides math there is little I can do at school to prepare for that.


Gibbs: Thanks for the tips, and the specific book titles.


Talking to my brother I discovered you can also get all the class information in the pamphlets online, but you need a student account to access it. I'll see if I can use his.

[Sausagemit]

One last thing, although somewhat offtopic. I was looking around at equipment, and saw some tiny test tubes, apparently called Durham tubes. These are 12x55m (.4in x 2.1in) tubes, and you can get rubber caps that fit them. It seems they are used to detect gases created by microorganisms, but that isn't what I am thinking they could be used for. Would this not be a good size for a homemade, uniformly sized (and packed and measured due to their transparent nature) blasting cap? A fuse (or wire, depending on your means of ignition) is inserted into the rubber cap, the appropriate explosives added to the tube (bp + ap, etc... you use what is appropriate) and the cap is pressed tightly (but gently, even a few grams of an he in your hand that is friction sensitive is deep layers of skin or tips of your fingers gone) and you have a nice uniform cap.


And not to mention all the glass schrapnel that will be buried deep within your arms and hands.

Through my experience with home made blasting caps what works the best is to use used amunition casings. As almost all of them are made of non-sparking brass and you can find non-sparking lead slugs to use to press the AP putty or whatever your using in from a safe distance and from behind something.

I would never and have never packed or pressed any type of explosive with my bare hands as it is just an unsafe practice.

But you could make a press just the same for the test tubes. The only difference would be you would need something to hold the test tube there like a block of wood with a hole in it (really complicated huh).

And I would probabbly be worried about static too. Seeing as how glass and rubber almost allways carry oppisite charges when in contact with normal everyday objects and can arc if the air is dry enough. But once there in contact with one another, no worries.

[jellywerker]

They come in plastic too, which I figure would be incinerated in the blast and are cheaper, still the possibility of static though. As for pressing, I failed to mention it, but the intention is not to use the rubber cap to pack the explosives, it just needs to be pressed in firmly so that the fuse or wire is in contact with the first stage explosive.

[jellywerker]

Well, I've figured out most of what I'll be doing, I'll be using the 4th edition of "Chemistry" from Prentice Hall for a textbook, it has pretty solid reviews on being an all encompassing and understandable work. I won't be following along with a person or anything, but that suits me just fine. I figure I'll learn more from hands on than I would from conversing with another person new to chemistry.

I've also been searching my local stores for OTC chemicals and have found many useful items. Still on my list is polyisobutylene in the form of bird repellant (I cannot resist not attempting to make c4 at one time or another :D), along with a few other items. I'm also looking at buying around $150 of equipment from cynmar and ebay, which includes the following:

used triple beam scale
used corning stirrer/hotplate
5pc. Kimax beaker set (50ml, 100ml, 250ml, 600ml, 1L)
72pc. box of 36ml test tubes (Kimax again) + test tube brush, rack, tongs
300mm leibig condenser (+ water pump from aquarium store)
100ml graduated cylinder
a few glass stirring rods
Thermometer (-20 to 150c, nist certified) It also says P/I, I am not sure what that means.
chemical safe gloves
Safety glasses

I'll also get some stoppers and tubing, for using the condenser, but that seems to be about all that is really needed for doing a lot of things. I am sure I will want more eventually, but this appears to cover the basics.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what I am buying or a link to a teachers version of the textbook, so I may have answers to all the examples and such?

One last thing, as for equipment, Brainfever's site has been very helpful, being able to see pictures of some things like nitric acid being synthesized and such and seeing what it really takes to do them (they may not be the most efficient ways, but they appear to be a lot simpler than others I have read)

Thank you for creating such a nice resource, Sir. I has also been referring to this website:

http://www.destructve.com/book/Chapter6/bookchapt6.htm

an effort by the people on the sciencemadness forums (which I found out about recently and have been reading too)

[jellywerker]

I hate to bump this, but it seems to have fallen out of common interest. Anyone want to verify where I'm heading? I've also found that my physics teacher stocks a variety of chemistry books, all of which are available for checkout. I've found one to be especially helpful, a lab manual for a certain course, although his library is lacking the course textbook itself.

Also, yes, I did just notice the spelling error in the above post.