DMT as psychadelic knockout agent?

[Lewis]

I've been reading about about dimethyltryptamine, one of the most potent and incapacitating psychadelic drugs in existance. As little as 5 mg of the substance (smoked) will instantly render an adult harmless, and throw them into a trance like state.

I searched the forums and found nothing useful on this topic, so I created a new one in hopes of getting some useful feedback. I obviously have no intent to use this drug recreationally, but am interested in its use as a non-lethal weapon on large groups of people.

Is this plausible?
Economical?

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

I've been reading about about dimethyltryptamine, one of the most potent and incapacitating psychadelic drugs in existance. As little as 5 mg of the substance (smoked) will instantly render an adult harmless, and throw them into a trance like state.
I can tell you from experiance, DMT has you far from trance like, in ANY dose.

[c.Tech]

Your better of using 5-MeO-DMT if you can get hold of it, it's 4 times more potent. Unfortunately it can't easily be found in plants.

Maybe there is a way that DMT could be changed into 5-MeO-DMT?

Synthesis is out of the option for some people because of the precursors needed, I think they are controlled. DMT synthesis (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal06.shtml), 5-MeO-DMT syntheses (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal38.shtml).

Perhaps it has some use if it can be dissolved in DMSO, you couldn’t just vaporize it because of the harsh vapor.

Another thought would be salvia divinorum, it can be sold at witchcraft stores in America and the materials needed could be extracted.

Also 5mg is only the threshold dose (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_dose.shtml) and would have very little effect on the victim.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Another thought would be salvia divinorum, it can be sold at witchcraft stores in America and the materials needed could be extracted.Witchcraft stores? You'd be much better off checking a headshop or getting it off the net from iamshaman or sagewisdom. The chemical you're looking for is salvinorin A, which is highly soluble in acetone or isopropyl alcohol.

And again, coming from a recreational drug user, you are not in a trance like state on salvia. It is perhaps one of the most frightening experiances I've gone through, and I love it every time I do it.

A big problem with salvia would be getting the person to take enough smoke in to reach the required dose to "break through", it's not easy because the smoke is very harsh, and a resistance is built quickly. It'd be much easier to spray someone in the face with LSD-25 via a reusable aerosol can or something.


PS: http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml

[zeocrash]

I have some experience with salvia divinorum.
firstly the effects only last 20 mins, an hour at most (same goes for dmt).
Secondly who knows the effects spraying your subject with DMT would have on his mental health. The difference between a user of hallucinogenics and an unsuspecting victim, is that the user has some idea what to expect, this softens the blow, but to push a DMT trip on an unsuspecting person would almost certainly do some nasties to them.

DMT and salvia would have more merit for discrediting someone rather than knocking them out

[Lewis]

I realize that in the case of DMT, the classification might well be less lethal than non lethal. But, after all, it IS a weapon...

LSD does have advantages, but one huge disadvantage is the time it takes to become incapacitating.

Perhaps DMT would have more small scale uses, like taking out a room full of armed guards quietly?

[zeocrash]

Perhaps DMT would have more small scale uses, like taking out a room full of armed guards quietly?

Would you really want to walk into a room full of armed guards who are all tripping balls on DMT.
:p

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Quietly? You people have never done DMT. People that are high on DMT do not stay still, they move around their enviornment despite the fact they may be on some alien planet. There's a reason trip sitters are recommended. The effect you are looking for does not exist with these chemicals.

[Nihilist]

Something like Carfentanil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carfentanil) is probably much better suited to this kind of problem.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Dude, fentanyl is bad ass and potent, if carfentanil is truly 100x stronger, that's insane. I don't believe it to be active at 1ug though, if it is then it's beaten LSD by 49-75ug, which is rather impressive.

Second, if it's active at 1ug, then overdose will be insanely easy because of how hard it is to measure such a weight reliably and consistantly.

[akinrog]

Dude, fentanyl is bad ass and potent, if carfentanil is truly 100x stronger, that's insane.

Actually it's so easy to get an OD with fentanyl analogues, you will not notice what's happening at all.

Sulfanyl is even much more stronger. There was a recipe in Rhodium's site about it. IIRC, it's LD-50 is at the nanogram scale. I shall search my files to find out it.

Occassionally I hear this or that surgeon was found dead in their offices due to fentanyl overdose.

As you may know, surgeons are under a lot of pressure, they have to work hard and they have to keep the patient alive. This fact drives them to be friendly with opiates. :D

And when opiate of choice is a fentanyl analogue, they accidentally OD themselves. Regards.

[c.Tech]

Sulfanyl is even much more stronger. There was a recipe in Rhodium's site about it. IIRC, it's LD-50 is at the nanogram scale. I shall search my files to find out it.


If you cant find it download mine. http://rapidshare.de/files/31798088/Rhodium_s_Drug_Chemistry_Archive.zip

Or you can find another one of rhodium’s archives on erowid, I think it is more up to date.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Honestly? I had no idea that such potent medicines existed, let alone opiates that were(are) that strong. That's insane!

[Lewis]

After some more searching, I found out that 5-MeO-DMT is legal in Canada, where I live, and there are a number of individuals claiming to be selling it online.

Problem is that I don't think 5-MeO-DMT would mess a person up enough, and fast enough to do the job.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

After some more searching, I found out that 5-MeO-DMT is legal in Canada, where I live, and there are a number of individuals claiming to be selling it online.It's legal in America also, but at the same time it's an analog of DMT, so it is illegal... I don't know if canada has the equivilent of the Analog Act, though.

[nbk2000]

For oxalate salt of Carfentanyl, ED50 = 0.0006 mg/kg i/v.

This mean that for 100-kg body you need only 0.06 mg, or 60 micrograms,which is the scale that LSD is measured in (not nanograms), with a heavy dose of LSD being 250mics (micrograms).

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

I just wanted to point out that in the 3 or 4 pharmacology books I've read, as well as several papers I've read, and in communications with people over IRC, ug is the abbreviation used for micrograms, not mics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microgram#SI_multiples tends to also agree, but am I wrong thinking that ug is the proper abbreviation? The reason I ask, is because your word has much more weight than wikipedia with me, and people have been known to bastardize worse things.

[akinrog]

For oxalate salt of Carfentanyl, ED50 = 0.0006 mg/kg i/v.

This mean that for 100-kg body you need only 0.06 mg, or 60 micrograms,which is the scale that LSD is measured in (not nanograms), with a heavy dose of LSD being 250mics (micrograms).

Sir, when I talk about LD-50 of nanogram scale, I was not referring to Carfentanyl but sulfanyl, which was discussed here a long time ago. Even a guy from Hive attended the discussion but refused to give any synthesis IIRC.

[nbk2000]

I was referring to Shadow's statements about carfentanyl potency, not your later statements.

I believe I have a copy of the original Hive thread where sufentanyl's synth was discussed. I'll have to look for it.

[Cobalt.45]

"mics" is much the same as saying "tenths" when referring to ten thousandths of an inch, ie four tenths represents .0004" and might be considered proper if used in context.

"ug" is understood as being the correct abbreviation for micrograms.

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

There are many psychoactive compounds that could be valuable to use for reaching the end of incapacitating the victims. I think it all depends on the route of adminstration. It might be most advisable to research into the desired victim's schedule and then find a time where you could dope their food or drink with the drug and then just wait the appropriate amount of time to do whatever it is you want to do. With this method, LSD (maybe Rohyphenol-though I can't seem to find much information about this?) or any other low-dose psychoactive compound would probably give the desired effect; so long as one accounted for the harshness of environment as many psychoactives are rather fragile molecules in the face of light or oxygen rich environments. Via this route, though, it may also be desirable to use some fast-acting bacteria like Rhodospirillum rubrum which, correct me if I'm wrong, produces projectile vomiting within 3 hours of exposure. I don't think a human is too keen on guarding when he is vomiting so hard that he has to be careful not to burst the blood vessels in his brain and eyes.

[Chris The Great]

The problem with fentanyls is that they have a very very high lethal dose compared to the minimum effective dose. So although the lethal dose is still very low, it's not excetionally amazing IMO. Good, yes, but not a superweapon as people seem to think it is. For incapacitating however the dose is much lower so it will work for that quite well.

[nbk2000]

If you're trying to correct me, do it properly. :p

The symbol µ = micro

A lower-case letter u in front of a g doesn't mean microgram.

µg or mcg are the acccepted terms.

Since it's original use in the 60's, and at Lycaeum, Erowid, and the former Hive, the term 'mics' refers to single micrograms, not 10 microgram units.

'Mics' is a drug culture slang, not proper scientific terminology, but a well-studied chemist needs to be familiar with both sides of the tracks. ;)

Yes, the LD vs. ED range for Fentanyl analogs may be a difference of several orders of magnitude, but when the lethal dose is in the single digit milligram range, that makes it the same as G or V agents...pretty damn lethal. :)

[meyer25]

Sir, when I talk about LD-50 of nanogram scale, I was not referring to Carfentanyl but sulfanyl, which was discussed here a long time ago.

First, what's your "sulfanyl" that you are reffering to? Sulfanyl is a synonym for thiol/mercapto group (-SH).

I will asume you mean the compound with INN sufentanil, because of the fentanyl context.

Now, it's highly unprobable, if not impossible, that sufentanil would be more toxic than carfentanil, because, relating their respective potencies,

"...sufentanil is a µ-selective opioid with an about 10-fold higher receptor affinity than fentanyl (that is, about 1,000-fold potency of morphine) [Buschmann et al.: Analgesics, Wiley-VCH, 2002]..."

while

"...Carfentanil citrate is a synthetic opiate with a clinical potency 10,000 times that of morphine, (Mather, L.E., Clin. Pharm. 8, 1983, pp 422-446)..."

So carfentanil is about 10 times more potent than sufentanil. Same is to be expected of their relative toxicities since they're very similar opioids (more similar than fentanyl and sufentanil are, for instance).

Even a guy from Hive attended the discussion but refused to give any synthesis IIRC.

As for synthesis of sufentanil, there are three possible routes described in quoted work of Buschmann et al., the most feasible is that starting from 1-[2-(2-thienyl-)ethyl-]piperidin-4-one, beeing reacted with Me3S+.I- and Na+.-CH2-SO-CH3, giving 4-spirooxirane derivative, which is then reacted with aniline and BF3-etherate, giving a mixture of 4-(hydroxymethyl-)-4-(N-anilido-)piperidine and 4-(N-anilidomethyl-)-4-hydroxypiperidine. The former isomer is methylated with diazomethane and finaly acylated with propionic anhydride or chloride to yield sufentanil free base.


As for the topic, 5-MeO-DMT or other 5-MeO-N,N-dialkyltryptamine would be highly effective in quickly and effectively temporary knockout of victims by inhalation of its aerosols, given their potencies (ED beeing around 5-20mg if inhaled, that is comparable with nerve agents of G-series) and speed of action. Everyone who ever smoked a 5-MeO-N,N-dialkyltryptamine will confirm this. It's a matter of seconds, the efects lasts for 15-60 minutes heavily. These compounds are of shorter duration of effect than e.g. LSD, but the effect is overwhelming, and the substances much more stable than LSD.

[akinrog]

First, what's your "sulfanyl" that you are reffering to? Sulfanyl is a synonym for thiol/mercapto group (-SH).


My bad!... It's actually sufentanil. However, IFAI Remember, then I had checked sufentanil lethal dose in SIRI index (which no longer works) and it was about nanogram level. But I'm not sure since it was almost two years ago. My memory may not serve me best. Regards.

[Dumb_Australian]

A combination of fentanyl and halothane was used to incapacitate the terrorists and the hostages in the Russian theatre. The main cuse of death amoungst the hostages was that when they were recovered from the premises they were not put into the classical red cross recovery position. As both halothane and fentanyl have respiratory depressant effects not placing the victim (in this case) in the recovery position will result in death due to respiratory depression.

[meyer25]

It's actually sufentanil. However, IFAI Remember, then I had checked sufentanil lethal dose in SIRI index (which no longer works) and it was about nanogram level. But I'm not sure since it was almost two years ago.

No, it surely wasn't about nanogram level. Sufentanil is used in human surgical patients in analgesic dose range 0,5-5,0µg/kg (=500-5.000ng/kg) i.v. and as an anesthetic in doses above 8,0µg/kg (=8.000ng/kg) i.v.. IMHO, LDs would be in range of 10µg/kg and higher.

[megalomania]

From my initial preview of the DMT synthesis, it does not seem as if it would be a complicated synthesis, even for an improvised one. The TiHKAL synthesis from erowid.org makes uses of tryptamine, methyl iodide, and isopropyl amine.

Starting from tryptophan, you should be able to reflux it with a ketone to convert it to tryptamine. Getting the tryptophan is then the problem. Methyl iodide is a common laboratory reagent, and is not watched from what I found. IPA might be watched, one could use ethanolamine as well, and I think there are synths for both of those floating around.

There is actually a section devoted to DMT over at the Lycaeum forums, so I would try there. It seems to be down as of this moment, but google still has a cache. I believe the site is “DMT World.” Sounds like the place to be for this topic…

I wrote this several days ago, and I see the topic has moved beyond DMT a little...

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

As for the topic, 5-MeO-DMT or other 5-MeO-N,N-dialkyltryptamine would be highly effective in quickly and effectively temporary knockout of victims by inhalation of its aerosolsI'm telling you as someone who has used both 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, salvia, and a lot of other drugs, you do not stay still/calm on these chemicals. You are not 'knocked out'. You're ripped from reality mentally, but your body still responds physically sometimes. I've started a trip in my garage and ended up on my roof with a knife in my hand.

One guy in shambhala on salvia: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9209123528773595033&q=salvia
30 seconds later: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8412119633310650746&q=salvia
A girl doing salvia for the first time, lucky she had friends around:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6007120822000113792&q=salvia

A friend of mine(ohm from the dextroverse) smoking 5-meo-dmt with floatingleaf (I forget who was behind the camera, it was another DVer): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7942075676281629542&q=5-meo-dmt

As you can see, he's not knocked out, he's wide awake. Theres also floatingleaf and ohm on PCP at http://cuntbutter.org/ohm/vids/pcpwnage/ if you're interested... they keep all sorts of neat/weird videos.

[meyer25]

I'm telling you as someone who has used both 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, salvia, and a lot of other drugs, you do not stay still/calm on these chemicals.

Come on, let's not trying to play the "authoritative first-hand-source". Of course I did took these drugs too. Now what?

By the way, I'm not aware of writing/saying that you "stay still/calm on these chemicals", anytime. All I said is that someone who inhales a dose high enough of a 5-methoxy-N,N-dialkyltryptamine would be knocked out.

By beeing "knocked out", you don't necessarily need to be sedated/drowsy/asleep/paralysed. Any harrasment of senses or thinking in effective extent will do the job. Hence the principle of action of most non-lethal CW agents.

You are not 'knocked out'.

Maybe you're not (although I'm not really convinced you are capable of doing anything that calls for your full alertness, concentration and rational thinking and handling first 15 min after smoking 20mg 5-MeO-DMT). But a soldier/policeman who's not expecting a trip out of the galaxy would be. Seems comprehensible so far?

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

They wouldn't be completely rational, but they'd still beable to make their weapon function in your direction.

[meyer25]

They wouldn't be completely rational, but they'd still beable to make their weapon function in your direction.

Yes, maybe, some of them. But why encounter a bunch of horror-tripping armed men? Unless you are a member of an assault commando that is well prepared and tasked by elimination of the enemy unit that has been incapacitated by a non-lethal CW agent prior to action? In this case, the simple fact that an intoxicated enemy can't react properly poses a tactical advantage worth using.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

You'd be much better off using more effective chemicals. Even ether would be better.

[meyer25]

You'd be much better off using more effective chemicals. Even ether would be better.

Would not, IMHO. Do you know what concentrations would be needed? And do you have any idea of how achieving such concentrations?

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Are you aware of how much DMT/5-MeO-DMT you're going to need to fill a room?

[nbk2000]

Don't listen to his suggestion for ether. :rolleyes:

Yes, lets pump in an extremely flammable solvent with a very detectable odor, into a room where people with FIRE arms are.

Even if they don't smell it, and you do render them non-op, you could just as easily flash-cook yourself from an electrostatic spark that ignites the heavier-than-air ether cloud as you walk across the carpet in the room.

As was demonstrated by the russians in the theater siege, even if you succeed, you can still kill.

So, at that rate, why not just kill 'em all to start with? The first one costs, the rest are free. ;)

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

True nbk, I can't believe I looked over that detail. I retract my previous suggestion.

[zeocrash]

Aquiring tryptophan is not dificult, it is available in health food stores under the names L-tryptophan or 5-HTP. It's usually used by ecastasy users to replenish their depleted serotonin levels, as the body converts it into serotonin.

[meyer25]

Are you aware of how much DMT/5-MeO-DMT you're going to need to fill a room?

Yes I am. About 1-1.3 gms min/m³. Thus, for 1,000m³ space, about 1-1.3kg.

[nbk2000]

What about the Time/Concentration ratio?

A man at rest breath at a much slower rate than a man exerting himself, so will become intoxicated at a much quicker rate. Also, you must ensure that the targets are breathing in a high enough concentration in a short enough period of time to prevent metabolic decay, such as occurs with HCN.

Oh, a kilo of DMT? That's all? :rolleyes:

[meyer25]

What about the Time/Concentration ratio?

If you look closer at the post, you'll certainly find following information:

"...1.000-1.300 mg.min/m³..."

This is reffered, as standard Ct50 refferences are, to a resting or slightly physically active average man (minute breath volume 12-15L).


A man at rest breath at a much slower rate than a man exerting himself, so will become intoxicated at a much quicker rate. Also, you must ensure that the targets are breathing in a high enough concentration in a short enough period of time to prevent metabolic decay, such as occurs with HCN.

Yes, all of this was incalculated, and the 1.000-1.300 mg.min/m³ is quite reliable for free base 5-MeO-DMT in time of exposure interval of 30sec to 10mins.

Oh, a kilo of DMT? That's all? :rolleyes:

No, a kilo of 5-MeO-DMT, for 1.000m³ space. And it's not all, you would need some reliable dispersing system also.

[zeocrash]

I'm pretty sure that 5-meo/DMT is qute expensive. If you're going to be using 1kg per 1m^3 you better be stealing something very valuable indeed. I'm not quite sure of street prices or manufacturing costs.
Some of my friends are quite into their psychedelics, i'll ask them the current market prices for the UK and get back to you all.

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

It sounds like an absurd idea to me. Spreading a kilogram of some crystalline powder over a meter cubed area in order to achieve an effective result? Sounds anything but subtle and useful. Hell, your chances are better throwing a water balloon filled with chloroform :)

[meyer25]

I'm pretty sure that 5-meo/DMT is qute expensive. If you're going to be using 1kg per 1m^3 you better be stealing something very valuable indeed.

This is pointless...for sake, please, tell me, who suggested using 1kg of 5-MeO-DMT per one cubic meter?

Next time, you better read something three times, before making not-that-wise fabulations, okay?

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

No, a kilo of 5-MeO-DMT, for 1.000m³ space. And it's not all, you would need some reliable dispersing system also.

I'm pretty sure you suggested it yourself. That's 1.000 you have written, not 1,000. I wondered why the thousandth place for significant figures in such a crude analysis.

[Lewis]

:D Meyer, how could you make the same decimal placment mistake two times in a row?

[meyer25]

I'm pretty sure you suggested it yourself. That's 1.000 you have written, not 1,000. I wondered why the thousandth place for significant figures in such a crude analysis.

Yes, that is in deed 1.000 I've written. And it is "one thousand". Excuse me, but I will not change my decimal notation, because it's not a matter of grammar. And I'm pretty sure everyone with a little common sense can understand that. However, excuse me if I overestimated you.

[festergrump]

Hey, Meyer... Since math seems to be even less important to you than grammar, can I be your accountant? I absolutely promise not to point out to you that decimal placement means ever so much more in mathematics than letter placement in English grammar does, and that mathematics is a language that transcends any and all written languages known to mankind... :p

Not to say grammar isn't important, but... Just my $002000.00 :rolleyes:

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

Yes, that is in deed 1.000 I've written. And it is "one thousand". Excuse me, but I will not change my decimal notation, because it's not a matter of grammar. And I'm pretty sure everyone with a little common sense can understand that. However, excuse me if I overestimated you.

Well, since you're proposing such an outlandish idea it'd make sense that you'd try to prove it in terms of outlandish figures. Don't try to belittle me because you can't type properly and read what you wrote before you post. You made an error, and then you accuse us of being idiots. Use your common sense.

[Nihilist]

He didn't make an error, and neither did any of you. It's a cultural difference. Pretty much every country except the U.S. uses the opposite meaning of "." and ",". http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DecimalPoint.html

1kg/one thousand cubic meters isn't so bad at all.


Aquiring tryptophan is not dificult, it is available in health food stores under the names L-tryptophan or 5-HTP. It's usually used by ecastasy users to replenish their depleted serotonin levels, as the body converts it into serotonin.

5-HTP and tryptophan aren't quite the same. 5-HTP is a metabolite of tryptophan that, according to supplement companies, makes it a more effective dietary supplement than actual tryptophan. And real L-Tryptophan is actually banned in the U.S. because in 1993(I think) one company shipped a bad batch of it, the FDA freaked out, and has never lifted the ban.

[zeocrash]

meyer if you don't beleive us about the whole decimal thing maybe this will clear it up for you

1.000*1 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=1.000+*+1&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)

1,000*1 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=1%2C000+*+1&btnG=Search&meta=)

[nbk2000]

In some european countries, they use a . instead of a , for indicating decimal groups. Very confusing to those of us in more enlightened countries. ;)

1.000 milligrams = One milligram with three decimals precision.
1,000 milligrams = 1 gram

Using excessive digits is called 'False Precision' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision).

It's like when the airline schedule shows a plane arriving at 9:23:04 AM.

The seconds are 'false precision', and so to are the minutes. :p

[Dawg]

And real L-Tryptophan is actually banned in the U.S. because in 1993(I think) one company shipped a bad batch of it, the FDA freaked out, and has never lifted the ban.

Hmmm-couldn't possibly be that BigPharma was annoyed with safe alternatives such as tryptophan cutting into their very lucrative prescription hypnotics sales, could it?

[FUTI]

Mathematical notation dispute is out of place in my opinion. What I really question is this compound usable for the action in question. Simple - yes, obtainable -yes, effective - hm, well 1kg can cover effectivly by mine calculations an area of 500 square meters (I used temperature inversion layer as maximum height at which this agent can be dispersed - huge approximation but...) acording to figures that were stated in this thread, I don't think that is effective compared with standard CW agents. Even terorist wouldn't be interested in using this since it isn't a teror weapon...hell I can see a bunch of junkies running to the army if terorist start using that CW :D. It is a theme to think about but I'm amazed it caused such angry dispute.

[Lewis]

FUTI, I think DMT would be a great substance for instilling widespread terror. In fact, it almost seems perfect.

I'm sure chemically raping one's brain that badly would beat having an AK pointed in your face any day.

[zeocrash]

Say you were to use DMT on armed guards, before going in and robbing the place.
Am I the only person on this forum who would really not feel particularly safe going into a room full of armed people who are tripping balls on a particularly powerful psychedelic drug. I know they won't be particularly coordinated, but i assure you that if they fire enough bullets, some of them will hit you.

[nbk2000]

Considering how 5 grams of DM (Adamsite) would have everyone in the 1,000 CuM3 vomiting and convulsing on the floor, I think using a kilo of DMT (or 5-MeO-DMT :rolleyes: ) is rather silly.

Especially when you consider what you could make by selling that same amount of DMT at raves, you would have to be stealing a pile of gold to make more by using it as an incapacitant than selling it as a drug. :p

[nbk2000]

The US military, with the most well funded and staffed weapons labs in human history, gave up on the use of psychotropic weapons, as their effects are too unpredictable.

BZ, 3-quinuclidinyl Benzilate, was the weaponized version of this kind, and it was pulled for being unreliable.

As is known, the targets may curl up into a fetal ball or become raging berserkers. Can you predict which ahead of time? No.

A bad thing to try when you're dealing with people with guns.

Even if they don't 'see' you, thus not impeding your crime, what about the bugs that are crawling through their minds? The 'bugs' that they can only stop with a bullet? The bullet that they put through their own heads to stop the 'bugs'?

If they kill themselves in the midst of a psytropic-induced nightmare, it'll be YOUR ass roasting in the electric chair for having exposed them to it.

When using a weapon, assume it'll kill, even if it's intended not to. Only use it if death is an acceptable outcome in case of failure.

[Chris The Great]

Yes, all of this was incalculated, and the 1.000-1.300 mg.min/m³ is quite reliable for free base 5-MeO-DMT in time of exposure interval of 30sec to 10mins.

No, a kilo of 5-MeO-DMT, for 1.000m³ space.

When did we go from mg/m3 to kg/m3? Can someone please explain where the number got multiplied by a million?

Anyway, the correct figure would be 1 GRAM for 1000m3. Simple math here people, if you can't even do THAT then you really don't have business discussing ways to incapacitate people. Increase to 2 or 3 just to make sure they are fully incapacitated.

Still, as NBK says, it really isn't that great a weapon. However, it might be something you could dump on the piggies when they are somewhere else, and you don't want them to be able to get to where you are.

[nbk2000]

There's confusion because Meyer wasn't properly formatting his numbers.

We don't know if he was showing a single milligram with three trailing zeros (1.000mg), or if he meant 1000mg (1,000mg).

Without such clarification, I'd assume the worstcase, and that it's 1-1.3 grams per cu/m3.

As he said himself, a kilo for 1,000 cu/m3.

[Match]

Possible scenario:

Small desolate, in-the-middle-of-no-where-bumfuck-town decides to transcribe itself on the side of the Transcanada highway. They then artificially lower the speed limit in a scheme to catch speeders. This is so ridiculous and works so well that the town employees even more of its inbred population as pork just to man the radar. Suddenly, 90% of the anal forces income is a result of moving violations and they therefore must write even more tickets to support themselves. The town is so far from anywhere, and the judge so well paid, that any attempt for a reduction is laughed out of court.

As you know, gross errors on your ticket will make it null and void. Bacon under the effects of a psychedelic will have a high probability of being unable to fill out a ticket. If he does manage to fill it out, the possibility of error is greatly enhanced.

A substance added to your paper work (perhaps spiked with DMSO) absorbed by the victims skin, or a vapor expelled from below your cars door, are possible means of delivery.

A fast acting laxative, or nauseous agent could be used instead, or in conjunction.

An A/V recording of an officer in the midst of a 'bad trip' will surely be beneficial in your case. Deniability at it's finest.

[Nihilist]

Possible scenario:

Small desolate, in-the-middle-of-no-where-bumfuck-town decides to transcribe itself on the side of the Transcanada highway. They then artificially lower the speed limit in a scheme to catch speeders. This is so ridiculous and works so well that the town employees even more of its inbred population as pork just to man the radar. Suddenly, 90% of the anal forces income is a result of moving violations and they therefore must write even more tickets to support themselves. The town is so far from anywhere, and the judge so well paid, that any attempt for a reduction is laughed out of court.

As you know, gross errors on your ticket will make it null and void. Bacon under the effects of a psychedelic will have a high probability of being unable to fill out a ticket. If he does manage to fill it out, the possibility of error is greatly enhanced.

A substance added to your paper work (perhaps spiked with DMSO) absorbed by the victims skin, or a vapor expelled from below your cars door, are possible means of delivery.

A fast acting laxative, or nauseous agent could be used instead, or in conjunction.

An A/V recording of an officer in the midst of a 'bad trip' will surely be beneficial in your case. Deniability at it's finest.

That may well be the greatest method ever devised to get out of a ticket =p.

Something like vaporized salvinorin.A would probably be the most effective if given at an extremely high dose(i.e. 10+ mg). Cop would probably forget you were there entirely...in fact, he'd probably wander into traffic and try to shoot a car or something ^^. But one thing is for certain, he definitely wouldn't remember a damn thing.

This actually presents a somewhat interesting idea for other similar situations with cops. Carrying around some vaporized amnesia-inducing substance like salvinorin.A or rohypnol could prove very useful...

[Alexires]

Another interesting point would by the addition of MAOI to subject(s) to increase the effect of the DMT.

*laugh* If you wanted to, soak someone's incense sticks in the stuff (DMT) as a weaponising agent.

The problem with DMT is that from what I have read, the initial dose needs to be given in under 60 seconds, with the remainder given after this period doing nothing. The addition of MAOI's may change this. Perhaps there is a capability of using the DMT in a smoke device kind of grenade (like chili grenades that have been discussed). This would allow for quick dispersion of the DMT so that it has a maximum effect.

Anyone here read Neuromancer? Hit a big office block with a few of these smoke grenades, after the office coffee supply had been doped with MAOI's for a few days. Then ring the cops and tell them you have doped everyone with PCP and that they were about to go on a homicidal rampage... See what the riot squads do then.

[Enkidu]

MAOI is the only way DMT is active if ingested.

You don't need that for any kind of inhalation or other absorption.

But MAOI does amplilfy DMT (5-MeO-DMT especially) greatly no matter what the method of absorption. MAOI and DMT is an extreme mix unless you really really know what you are doing.

Also there is the problems of MAOI killing people. And if that is the goal then you might as well also hit them with MDMA to seal the deal.

[Maldore]

An A/V recording of an officer in the midst of a 'bad trip' will surely be beneficial in your case. Deniability at it's finest.

In the united states, cop cars are equiped with cameras, so spraying a drug in a cop's face might be a tad bit of a bad idea. They'll have your licence plate number, and a video tape of an offence much worse than a speeding ticket... assault of an officer, or maybe even drug trafficing?