Lead Oxalate, Tartrate, and Citrate

[J]

I've been doing some information gathering on Lead Oxalate, and I haven't found much. There's virtually no mention of it in the newsgroups, and I can't even find an MSDS. There's some mention of it in a couple of past forum posts, but not much.

Does anybody have any information regarding its sensitivity, detonation velocity, initiating ability, or brisance? I have found it for sale in quantities as large as 500g, which suggests that it isn't very sensitive.

It's synthesis is apparently very easy. Lead Nitrate is reacted with Oxalic acid, and the Pb Oxalate precipitates out. I've seen it mentioned that Lead Sulphate can be substituted for the Nitrate.

I've found even less information about Lead Citrate and Tartrate. Could these be synthesised in the same way as the Oxalate, substituting Citric/Tartaric acid?

J

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[Madog555]

i have read past posts on organic compounds of heavy, soft metals. many of these compounds are supose to be explosives. i bet they are very sensitive and not very powerful though http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif that would explain the lack of info on them.

btw, where the hell did u see it on sale!?!?

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"True freedome is not without anarchy"

[kingspaz]

well not strictly on topic but related. i made some copper tartrate and all it did was fizzle a bit (emphasis on bit!). it was shit. i'm going to add ammonia and see if it complexes...that may make something more energetic.

[nbk2000]

This is the only information I could find on Lead oxalate. From the Merck Index.

Lead Oxalate . CAS Registry number: [814-93- Molecular formula: C 2 O 4 Pb

Properties: White, heavy powder. Dec at 300degrees. d 5.28 . Poisonous! Insol in water; sol in dil HNO 3 , fixed alkali hydroxides; sparingly sol in acetic Density: d 5.28

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[J]

Keep us informed about the experiment kingspaz, I'm interested.

The reason these compounds have caught my interest is the fact that they're easily improvised.

Lead Oxalate is used in the photographic industry. Therefor, it can be purchased by those who need it.

J

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[the freshmaker]

hey guys! I think Mr.Cool have experimented with Pb Oxalates as well. He said something about it didn't worked for him. Mr.Cool can you please tell us the exact recipe you used!? I'll try to make it in a few days...
thanx!


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good boy with bad ideas

[Mr Cool]

Here is what I did: I dissolved 3 grams of Pb(NO3)2 in boiling water (I can't remember exactly how much water, just make the solution as conc as possible), and added a concentrated solution of 1.5 grams of hydrated oxalic acid (excess acid). After a few seconds, all the lead oxalate had precipitated, and I filtered it, washed it with cold water, and let it dry.
It might be worth experimenting with it further - I did a flame test and a hammer test, neither of which did anything interesting, and gave up and never made it again! So I didn't exactly do thorough testing on it...

Edit: STILL haven't got round to trying Ag2(CO2). I used up my silver experimenting with TACC-like compounds, which did seem promising.


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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited December 23, 2001).]

[Yikes]

I have made silveroxalate just over a week ago. I titrated a concentrated solution of oxalic acid with 0.05M silvernitrate (we use this at our lab for chlorine determination...)
I thoroughly washed the precipitate with bidest, then dried it by adding acetone.
Kept it under acetone for a week, just to see how stable the silveroxalate would be. Well, it isn't very stable: the side of the vial I kept it in that faced the light got discolored. So keep it in the dark!

After evaporating the acetone I first tried to ignite a small sample (on a spatula) with an open flame. It did burn, but the flame wasn't self-sustaining. Repeated re-igniting was necessary to completely combust the sample.
Then, I put some oxalate in a small aluminium tube, and built a blasting cap. (The completed cap measured 6mm x 1") I attached a simple fuse to it. It burned again...no detonation.
I then tried the hammer test. The small amount of oxalate I put on the anvil did not detonate, even after repeatedly hitting it with an 1.5 lbs "hammer" falling from 3' high.
The next attempt was a cap built from a glass tube, to be able to see exactly what would happen.
The silveroxalate burned almost completely, except from a very small amount at the bottom of the tube.

I guess I may conclude that silver oxalate cannot be effectively used as a primary charge in any blasting cap.

[cutefix]

I think the only offensive use for this inert lead salts-are as poisons,never as explosives…

[the freshmaker]

Today I tried to make Lead Oxalate. I hoped it would show some explosive properties, but it didn't. It wouldn't even burn, and didn't responded on a hammerblow. So I think we can conclude from Mr.Cool and my experiment that Lead Oxalate isn't explosive....

What about the Citrate and tarterate salt?


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good boy with bad ideas

[the freshmaker]

If I would make Lead Citrate could I then just use Citric acid and use the same recipe as for the Oxalate salt????? -thanx

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[Mr Cool]

I wouldn't get my hopes up about the tartrate or citrate if I was you - from what I've read, the oxalate sounds like the most energetic, and it's pretty poor. According to Philou (who appears to have died or something, I haven't seen him here for a long time), even the glycerolate is explosive, but I really doubt the usefulness of that one.
But yes, if you want to try the citrate just replace oxalic acid for the right amount of citric acid, and use the same method.

[J]

I forgot about this thread! Anyway, here's the <a href='http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=0cenvtgj383irdoq27m4l8t97qqgj3dgj8%404ax.c om&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26selm%3D0cenvtgj383irdoq27m4l8t9 7qqgj3dgj8%25404ax.c om'>response</a> I got on sci.chem.

Side note: it seems Philou is still very much alive.

J

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: J ]</p>