Nootropics AKA "Smart Drugs"

[Nihilist]

I've recently been looking into this class of drugs, and it seems pretty interesting. I just ordered myself some Oxiracetam, Idebenone, Sulbutiamine, and Alpha-GPC. According to a few people I know, these things actually do work. Just wondering what all of your experiences are with these drugs, whether they worked for you, and also any other useful nootropics you may know of.

[zeocrash]

have you had a look through the eroid's section on smart drugs.
http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml

[megalomania]

I have been interesed in nootropics for a few years now, but I have yet to venture to try anything. There is so much to learn, but a decided lack of quality information or conclusive studies on some of these materials. I would be interested to know of any recommended sources you can... recommend.

[Nihilist]

Well, if you are looking for a cheap source of the raw materials...I use www.bulknutrition.com they have pretty good prices on practically everything they sell. They also have fairly well written and referenced descriptions of each substance. Normally I wouldn't trust a vendor's information because i'd assume it to be biased, but in their case they actually have a few products that they sell that they say really have no scientific support whatsoever. I suppose that could be a ploy on their part, but it tends to make me give their info a little more weight. Though obviously they're not my only source.

This site:

www.biopsychiatry.com
and
www.nootropics.com

are pretty good. They are both part of the BLTC Research network of websites on 'paradise engineering'. Which has an absolute wealth of information on drugs and pharmacology. As well as being an extremely interesting if somewhat odd organization in and of themselves.

http://www.bltc.com/
and
http://www.hedweb.com

Are sort of their "main" pages. However, they own and operate all of these domains:

http://www.bltc.com/bltc-research.html

Their network is obscenely extensive and well written.

[nbk2000]

Two hundred years ago, powerful synthetic pain-killers and surgical anesthetics were unknown. The notion that physical pain could be banished from most people's lives would have seemed absurd.

Today, most of us in the technically advanced nations take its routine absence for granted.

The prospect that what we describe as psychological pain, too, could be banished is equally counter-intuitive. The feasibility of its abolition turns its deliberate retention into an issue of social policy and ethical choice.


Now there is a philosophy that I can get behind!

[simply RED]

I would recommend guinseng, every day one flask.

Really working, but for such thing to be effective you should not drink, get doped etc. And most importaint - sit on your ass and study.

[megalomania]

Wow, I never considered the argument of emotional well being and a continually pleasured mind-state as being morally and ethically mandated. If you lived in a world without fear, anger, depression, or other negative emotions I guess you would consider the “natural’ state of the human psyche to be barbaric and ethically obligated to be corrected. Hedonistic imperative indeed…

There was a newspaper article about the potential social problems of smart drugs (I forget what it was, I need these drugs…). There may emerge “haves” and “have nots.” The haves will become increasingly more productive, employable, and wealthy, while the have nots will by comparison look like retards.

[Nihilist]

There was a newspaper article about the potential social problems of smart drugs (I forget what it was, I need these drugs…). There may emerge “haves” and “have nots.” The haves will become increasingly more productive, employable, and wealthy, while the have nots will by comparison look like retards.

That's an interesting problem to consider, but I think it already occurs with private tutoring, private schools, and the fact that generally wealthy areas have better public schools. Not to mention the rather liberal prescription(to those with the money to shop around for the right doctor, of course) of pseudo-nootropics like Adderall and Ritalin.

Comparatively though, the OTC nootropics are rather cheap for the most part. 700g of piracetam is only $20 from bulknutrition. And even though you can safely take 40+ grams a day, you'd probably only want to take 2-4g at most. So 700g is quite a bit.

EDIT: I thought I was going to have nearly every nootropic BN offers by now(I went on kind of a nootropic-ordering spree a couple of days ago heh), but I accidentally used fedex instead of USPS shipping. So, my shipment won't be coming in until friday at the earliest :/. I'll report my results when they come though.

[megalomania]

The situation of private tutoring is exactly mirrored by these kinds of smart drugs, but up to a point. The article was actually referring to a new generation of smart drugs that could be available some years from now that would enable superhuman feats of intelligence. It is one thing to get private tutoring from a concert violinist, but entirely different to transform yourself into a prodigy by a drug regimen.

A drug that conferred a photographic memory, lets you remain awake and hyper focused for days on end without the need for sleep, lets you calculate math like Rainman, and can have you painting a portrait with one hand while calculating differential equations with the other hand is not something even the best tutoring can easily compete with. The advantages of doing this in the business world could mean you do the work of 10 or 20 Harvard graduates. Those without the drugs would simply be irrelevant. The smartest human mind in the world would be far outclassed by a person on these type of smart drugs. This is where the gap between haves and have nots comes into play.

[shooter3]

1/2 of a Provigil, plus 1/2 of a small Ritalin, plus 1 cup of coffee. If you want to invent or design, try this combination. You'll come up with all sorts of stuff. When your off it for a few days go back over your list and throw out the crazy stuff. (Hydrolic windows sounded great when I was on it).

[megalomania]

Funny you should mention those three compounds together, shooter3. I just read a study from last year in the Journal of Sleep Research ((2005) 14, 255-266 Performance and alertness effects of caffeine, dextroamphetamine, and modafinil during sleep deprivation) about them. The study evaluated the cognitive enhancing effects of the three drugs plus placebo after ingestion during sleep deprivation. It looks like the caffeine gave a big initial boost, then the amphetamine kicks in, but the modafinil lasts for the long term. Taking all three at once would really be an experience I imagine.

http://www.roguesci.org/images/modafinilstudy.jpg

[c.Tech]

The dextroamphetamine is double the maximum prescribed dose, taking that long term to stay awake would probably lead to addiction.

[Nihilist]

The dextroamphetamine is double the maximum prescribed dose, taking that long term to stay awake would probably lead to addiction.

Nah, Adderall(which is a blend of various amphetamine isomers, including dextro) is prescribed in 30mg doses normally. Sometimes higher.

[Cobalt.45]

Nah, Adderall(which is a blend of various amphetamine isomers, including dextro) is prescribed in 30mg doses normally. Sometimes higher.
Prescribed dosages have little to do with addiction. It's the duration of taking a dosage that most often leads to addiction. Exceptions to this could be "one hit" addiction to meth or crack.

Amphetamines are a poor choice for long term wakefulness, if there's a need for cognizant thinking after a couple days of being up.

[Nihilist]

Prescribed dosages have little to do with addiction. It's the duration of taking a dosage that most often leads to addiction. Exceptions to this could be "one hit" addiction to meth or crack.


Right, but in the case of adderall it is generally prescribed to be taken quite often, if not every day.

[c.Tech]

Nah, Adderall(which is a blend of various amphetamine isomers, including dextro) is prescribed in 30mg doses normally. Sometimes higher.

In Australia the maximum dose they can prescribe unless in special situations (which a specialist doctor needs to give consent) is 10mg, that’s 2 pills 3 times a day.

Are you sure your not getting it mixed up with the daily dose which is taken 3 times a day?

And more than 30mg at a time is crazy, that’s the lowest dose where reports of over dosing have occurred for amphetamines. (read at erowid)

[Nihilist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall

Adderall is now sold in either an immediate-release tablet or an extended-release capsule, marketed as Adderall XR (for "eXtended Release"). Doses for both immediate-release and extended-release form come in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25,and 30 mg increments.

[nbk2000]

Mega, I'm reminded of the scene from Blade Runner where Roy (the replicant leader) is talking to Dr Tyrell:

Roy: "But not to last?"

Tyrell: "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very very brightly, Roy.",

Yes, you may produce prodigous work, but at what price?

The corporations that no doubt would be happy to see such increased worker productivity (at no real increase in wages, mind you!), would also not care if you burned out your brain in 10 years, as there'd be no shortage of wanna-be Haves, considering how only those willing to burn their brains for the corporate profit-margin would be considered employable.

If you want to keep your mind and body intact for the long haul, you'll be doing it as a Have-Not in the unemployment line.

Alas, there is no advantage in doing it when everyone else is doing it too. Advantage is to be gained only when there are no others competing with the same 'advantage'.

Otherwise, you end up in an arms race, where everyone ends up with the additional expense and risk, with no real advantage over anyone, since everyone else is doing it too. Only those taking exceptional risks at exorbiant expense gain a fractional percentage increase in advantage.

At that point, those who are not using it, have a gain in the lack of expediture that is better applied elsewhere.

There was a whole book on the subject that I scanned in. I'll see if I can find the relevant part.

[Cobalt.45]

Quote by Nihilist:"Right, but in the case of adderall it is generally prescribed to be taken quite often, if not every day."

And if you take nearly any drug in the PDR that causes addiction at the prescribed dose, you will get addicted. If you take it long enough.

With some drugs, the desired effects outweigh the problems associated with addiction or withdrawal.

[Nihilist]

Mega, I'm reminded of the scene from Blade Runner where Roy (the replicant leader) is talking to Dr Tyrell:

Roy: "But not to last?"

Tyrell: "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very very brightly, Roy.",

Yes, you may produce prodigous work, but at what price?

The corporations that no doubt would be happy to see such increased worker productivity (at no real increase in wages, mind you!), would also not care if you burned out your brain in 10 years, as there'd be no shortage of wanna-be Haves, considering how only those willing to burn their brains for the corporate profit-margin would be considered employable.

At least in regards to the *racetam class of compounds there are no signs of significant tolerance or toxicity of any kind. The burn twice as bright but for half as long theory is at least in some cases untrue.


And if you take nearly any drug in the PDR that causes addiction at the prescribed dose, you will get addicted. If you take it long enough.

With some drugs, the desired effects outweigh the problems associated with addiction or withdrawal.

Of course if you take it long enough you will eventually become addicted. My point is only that addiction to Adderall is not so common an issue as to make it too dangerous to use for its nootropic effects, if used properly and with a decent level of moderation.

[Cobalt.45]

Again, amphetamines are a poor choice. They've been studied for many years, and are of a very limited value for use as a nootropical agent.

If you doubt me, that's OK. But if you ever talk to someone amped for , say, 48 hours w/o sleep, you will quickly come to realize that amphetamines have a very heavy mind "load". Hallucinations and paranoia are commonplace.

The first 12-20 hours are the only phase of amphetamine effects that could be considered useful. After this, the return diminishes rapidly due to tolerance and the effects of sleep loss.

With many, full blown psychosis is imitated by sleep deprivation after a just a few days.

I don't want to sound argumentative, here. I'm sure your adderall has been a Godsend to many, for what is prescribed for.

But simply being awake does not a nootropic make. It's being awake and sane, cognizant, useful, productive. Things like that.

[Nihilist]

Oh, no, you're misinterpreting me. I don't mean to use Adderall to stay awake, I mean use them just when you need to concentrate for long periods of time(e.g. studying for a test, work, etc..). Under the conditions that normal sleep patterns are retained, I think Adderall can be very useful in helping you maintain focus/attention.

[Meawoppl]

you guys are all missing the most interesting topic modafinil . . . that is some crazy shit. I am working on a synthesis if anyone is interested.

The tests above don't do the jittery/addictive nature of the amphetamines justice. We have a ton of tweakers in this part of the world, but they mostly just work at circle k's and steal car audio equipment. Its a bad path.

[Lewis]

I cannot personally see any advantage of taking amphetamines (from an economic standpoint).

This particular line of drugs turn cities into shit-holes, turn rational thinkers into psychotic deadbeats, destroy families, and most of all, cost a lot of money.

There are plenty of drugs out there that give attentivness/wakefullness/creativity without requiring huge amounts of time to recover.

[nbk2000]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6083840.stm

Modafinil is known on the Rave scene as 'Zombies'. Wonder why?

Here's the page scans about how, if everyone uses enhancement drugs, it's the same as if no-one used the drugs.

http://rapidshare.com/files/1051000/Positional_Arms_Race.rar.html 880Kb

[megalomania]

If everyone used performance enhancing drugs in the Olympics, or baseball, the events would be far more spectacular, and the feats of human endurance, strength, and speed would be legendary. But, those things are banned, and for good reason. Then comes along some sneaky way of getting the drugs past the system, and you are a gold medalist, or on the cover of the Wheaties box.

The fame and fortune that awaits the performance enhancing drug user is a powerful lure. This is a prime example of the difference between the haves and have nots. Even if everyone did take drugs to improve their intellect, we would still have a better off society because there would be few kewls as they would finally grow the other half of the brain they are missing.

The market will likely price genius drugs well out of the range of casual use, the government will likely ban their use entirely, and I am sure some Christians somewhere will find a reason to condemn them on moral grounds.

EDIT: I just finished reading the pages from that book you provided, nbk. It is interesting to note I used the analogy of Olympic athletes and the Wheaties box before I read the book. Great minds think alike, eh? What book is that by the way?

[nbk2000]

The Winner-Take-All Society: Why the Few at the Top Get So Much More Than the Rest of Us by Robert H. Frank, Philip J. Cook

Out-of-print, but available through NBK press. ;)

I particularly like the Irrational Auction. Sounds like a great game to play at a bar full of high-rollers. :p

If only those who can afford nootropics, and can avoid possible tests, are using them, then the poor proles will become all that more useless in the market, further increasing the welfare class, creating the need for more taxes on those who are working, making them even less productive, thus defeating any gains made by using the drugs. :D

[random136]

Before I begin I would like to remind everybody that the purpose of this thread is to discuss “Nootropics AKA ‘Smart Drugs’”. The exact classification of Nootropics, to me at least, is still somewhat vague. But despite this, I can tell you with some certainty that amphetamines, which are classical stimulants and have been in used for numerous decades, do not fall into this category.

Amphetamines do provide some interesting effects however, and do have certain benefits over other performance enhancing medications. Since there is no thread completely dedicated to Amphetamines, and since everyone here, including admins, have chosen (by the content they posted) to incorporate a discussion on amphetamines in this thread, I would like to put in my two cents on the subject.

What follows is a fairly detailed description of my personal experiences with amphetamines, and stimulants in general, particularly my very recent experiences with a wide range of different medications. Because experimental data obtained by members is so precious to the community (since it suggests that the experiment can be duplicated by others here), it is my sincere hope that this information will aid those of you here who have given me access to this wealth of information.

To give you some background I am a young male, nearly 20 years of age attending university. I seldom drink and on the rare occasions when I do, I do so socially and stay well within my limits. I do not smoke and live a healthy lifestyle with regular exercise, although school has considerably limited my regular workout schedule. I am well within my BMI and suffer from no allergies or chronic illnesses. My family has a history of heart problems, however so far I have a healthy heart. I do have irregular sleeping habits and an inherent insomnia; this meant that the insomnia caused by having these substances in my system did not in any way bother me.

I have been granted prescriptions for all the medications I will describe and they are all of pharmaceutical quality. The substances mentioned in this thread that I have tried so far are caffeine (OTC pills), methylphenidate (Ritalin), dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine), Adderall XR (this is a mixture consisting of four amphetamine salts found in equal measures which give it its “extended release properties”), and most recently modafinil (Alertec).

I do not take these substances for recreational purposes nor do I intend to. I was prescribed the substances under the guise of ADHD (Or was it ADD? I don’t know I wasn’t paying attention.) In reality I use them to increase motivation, work output, concentration and to enhance my overall performance (both academically and athletically). I also use them in a personal attempt to battle depression caused by the various issues in my life. I know I may be judged here for this but I believe the logic behind my actions is sound (at least to me).

At any rate, for those of you who have never gone beyond caffeine we can use its effects as a reference point. My first amphetamine experience was with methylphenidate, which is a relatively new amphetamine. It is considered to be much safer to use and tends to take longer to build up tolerances to. The substance I took went by the brand name Concerta and was a slow release version. I found its effects to be too faint and its benefits too limited to outweigh the toxicity of taking this medication. I can not sincerely say that I had attained any beneficial abilities while taking this medication for a week long period. I then abandoned it and moved on to Adderall.

If amphetamines where drinks, the Adderall XR would be a vodka martini, nice and smooth but all business. For all you aspiring pharmaceutical bartenders out there, Adderall is composed of ¼ Dextroamphetamine Sacharate, ¼ Dextroamphetamine Sulfate, ¼ dl-amphetamine Aspartate and ¼ dl-amphetamine Sulfate. This blend is supposed to extend the 6 hour potential of one’s typical Dextroamphetamine to a full 12 hours of action. I was recommended a dosage of anywhere from 5mg to 25mg depending on need, this was only after I had gained my doctor’s trust by acting responsible (e.g. not trying to sell my pills, not getting admitted to hospital after taking too much). I have however heard of people taking as much as 100mg at one time, after building up a tolerance to the stuff, with few major health problems.

Because the question of addiction has been brought up before, I would like to address that first. I have taken by far more Adderall XR then any other amphetamine-containing medication, and have never experienced serious side effects when I discontinued my use.

I have come to two conclusions during my studies, first, the severity of one’s addiction to a stimulant is inversely proportional to the half life of the said stimulant in one’s system. That is to say, the longer an amphetamine gets you “high” and the more consistent the high is, the less likely you are to get hooked on the said stimulant. This is why most recreational stimulant users choose to snort or inject amphetamines rather then take them in slow release capsules, they are looking for an euphoric high that for a few fleeting moments rather then a constant extended boost of energy that lasts all day.

Secondly, I found that when used correctly, none of the four stimulants I have listed have any physiological withdrawal symptoms, it is all psychological. After short term use, discontinuation of amphetamines will cause the user to be tired and lethargic while the body re-establishes a sense of balance, this may take one or several days of oversleeping and lowered productivity. After long term use, discontinuation will be necessary in order to clear one’s mind of paranoid thoughts and to avoid the possibility of amphetamine psychosis. Ironically when the user becomes severely paranoid or is struggling through a bout of amphetamine psychosis the last thing they wish to do is cut down on the ‘speed’. Luckily, if the user is aware ahead of time of such side effects, they can better anticipate paranoid thoughts and know when to dismiss them, this is similar to the use of any drug (e.g. it’s easier to accept the hallucinations induced by Salvia Divinorum if you are knowingly experimenting with it then if nbk takes you by surprise sprays you with a weaponized version of it in order to make a point to other forumites.)

Additionally, in order to avoid the issue of increased tolerance to Adderall and in order to avoid the urge to double-dose, I try to always find 1 month breaks (I quit cold turkey) from Adderall for every one to two months of use. So far this has worked wonders, always getting my tolerance back down to where it was initially. During my breaks I work out a lot more, sleep in as much as possible, eat right and allow my body to re-build.

Dextroamphetamine alone gives a much sharper boost of energy but only lasts 4 to 6 hours without re-dosing. I have taken many imaginable combinations of Adderall, Dexedrine, caffeine, and sometimes pseudo-ephedrine (Tylenol sinus, or found alone in Sudafed) with few ill effects. Some combinations allowed me to stay up for 48 hour cram sessions. I always followed several guidelines, I only mixed Adderall with Dexedrine (not Ritalin or modafinil) since they were very similar substances and never allowed the combined dosages of the two to reach any higher then 30-35mg over a 24 hour period. In addition I tried not to exceed 250mg of caffeine (consumed in the form of many beverages) over the same period of time.

Modafinil is my latest prescription and I now consider it an amphetamine analog. The proper dosage is 100mg to 400mg, but I never went past 200mg in a 24 hour period. The effects last for roughly 6 hours (this decreases to almost 4 hours as tolerance increases). ‘Withdrawal’ syndromes are similar to those of Adderall or Dexedrine. Modafinil seems to take more of a toll on my heart however, with higher blood pressure.

Despite their differences all the stimulants stated above possess similar advantages. Amphetamines force the body to release large amounts of the hormone adrenaline which allow for physical and mental arousal. These medications also suppress hunger allowing one to go on without food for much longer then usual. Ironically, they do seem to increase thirst, giving dry mouth and the like, water however is easier to come by and much more easily passed through the body then food. Unfortunately, this also means that when amphetamines are used over long, constant periods of time, without breaks, the user must force feed themselves at regular intervals or they risk passing out due a shortage in the nutrients necessary to keep the body in function.

It should be noted that, upon initial administration, these medications will also encourage imminent bowel movements which purge thoroughly. While I am not the type to appreciate toilet humor, it is a well known and little discussed fact that we all operate better when we do not have to worry about constipated stomachs.

I am sorry for the sheer length of this post but I felt I needed to give as many details as possible. Fell free to point out errors or omissions in my work, if any. Questions are, of course, also welcomed.

In the past some of our most prominent members (nbk2000 included) have made allusions to the use of amphetamines and ‘tweaking’, I ask anyone who has any experiences they are willing to share to please do so, I would consider it a personal favor.

[NoMoreWebs]

From browsing "Druggie" forums, the stimulants looked upon as such:

Caffeine - Shit

Modafinil (Provigil) - No Euphoria, no cognition enhancement, just damn good at keeping you awake and alert. Like you don't need sleep.

Ritalin - shit

Adderall - Increases thinking abilities and memory up to 50% (Forgot where I read this). Not used to stay up unless the person wants to "Tweak". Good Euphoria. It's also worth noting that Adderall is 75% Dextroamphetamine.

Dextroamphetamine - Exact same thing as Adderall, only slightly better.

Methamphetamine - Same as Dextroamphetamine, only the effects are stronger.

Worth noting: Some people prefer Adderall over Dextroamphetamine because of preference. Or because Adderall has less of a come-down in some people.

Now then, how badly do you crash with these?

Methampehtamine>Ritalin>Dextroamphetamine>Adderall>Modafinil

But this is also dictated by personal preference. I've also heard that Modafinil has absolutely no crash after.

I would also like to correct random136 on the way amphetamines work:


Despite their differences all the stimulants stated above possess similar advantages. Amphetamines force the body to release large amounts of the hormone adrenaline which allow for physical and mental arousal. These medications also suppress hunger allowing one to go on without food for much longer then usual. Ironically, they do seem to increase thirst, giving dry mouth and the like, water however is easier to come by and much more easily passed through the body then food. Unfortunately, this also means that when amphetamines are used over long, constant periods of time, without breaks, the user must force feed themselves at regular intervals or they risk passing out due a shortage in the nutrients necessary to keep the body in function.


Ritalin inhibits the reuptake Dopamine, thought to be defiect in people with ADHD Hyperactive type.

Amphetamine, Dextroamphetamine, Adderall (75% Dex, 25% L-amphetamine) all inhibit the reuptake of both Dopamine and Norepinephrine. Norepinephrine is similar to Epinephrine (Andrenaline) but they both have distinct differences.

They're not sure exactly how Modafinil works, but you can read all about it 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Pharmacology'

And if you're not sure about what I mean when I say they "Inhibit the reuptake" Read about what the reuptake is. 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuptake'

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Adderall is composed of four different salts of dextroamphetamine and one levoamphetamine salt, in comparison to Dexedrine(brand name dextroamphetamine) which contains only d-amph. The salts kick in at different times, leading to a smoother come down.

Dextroamphetamine is not "the same thing" as Methamphetamine, as they act differently within the body. Methamphetamine(and its sterioisomer dextromethamphetamine) packs quite a bit more pep than amphetamine because of this.

[random136]

That is correct ShadowMyGeekSpace. I must reiterate that the post above reflects my personal experiences with these substances. Therefore, they only serve to describe what a ~20 year old male weighing ~180 pounds *might* experience. This is by no means a scientific study, nor is it an attempt to re-write the monograph of any of these medications.

[NoMoreWebs]

Adderall is composed of four different salts of dextroamphetamine and one levoamphetamine salt, in comparison to Dexedrine(brand name dextroamphetamine) which contains only d-amph. The salts kick in at different times, leading to a smoother come down.

Dextroamphetamine is not "the same thing" as Methamphetamine, as they act differently within the body. Methamphetamine(and its sterioisomer dextromethamphetamine) packs quite a bit more pep than amphetamine because of this.

Adderall does have different half-life times which is supposed to give less of a come down. A lot of people find that it actually does, but a lot of people also think Dextroamphetamine gives less of a comedown. It's all personal biology.

Methamphetamine, Dextroamphetamine, and Amphetamine all act on the same chemicals: Norepinephrine and Dopamine. It's how strong the they affect these that cause the different effects on the body.

Amphetamine: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine#Effects_of_use'
Adderall: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall#Effects'
Methamphetamine: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#Pharmacology'

Supporting my arguments about Adderall and how the salts and half-lifes affect the comedown: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall#Use'

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Methamphetamine, Dextroamphetamine, and Amphetamine all act on the same chemicals: Norepinephrine and Dopamine. It's how strong the they affect these that cause the different effects on the body.While they act on the same chemicals, the methods of action are slightly different. For example, the extra methyl group in methamphetamine makes it slightly more soluble in fats, and thus a higher bioavailability.

This small change also effects where the chemical binds in your brain. Off the top of my head, amphetamine and it's isomers have the highest affinity at the 5-HT1 receptor sites, while methamphetamine has an affinity for 5-HT1 and a higher affinity for 5-HT2. This "small" difference when combined with the dopamine increase at D1/D2/D3 explains methamphetamine's higher tendancy to induce amphetamine psychosis at medium-high doses/after prolonged use(in contrast to amphetamine).

[random136]

NoMoreWebs, there are a few things I feel the need to point out in your two previous posts. First of all, Wikipedia is fine as far as giving you a general understanding of an issue, and I often use it myself, but you have to remember that the information given there is often credited to other sources. Take a look at the bibliography provided at the end of every article and follow the links from there in order to discover better, more solid sources (on this topic or any other, Wikipedia alone rarely cuts it as a solid reference).

Your secondary sources seem to be fundamentally flawed as well. You say you acquired your knowledge of these medications from “druggie” forums, you must consider that the main purpose of such forums is to discuss subjects surrounding the *recreational* use of drugs, rather then the practical use.

This may have given you a biased opinion on the effectiveness of these medications. For instance, it is true that, due to its safe nature, methylphenidate (Ritalin, Concerta) is “crap” when taken by a healthy person in very large doses for the sole purpose of “tweaking out” or “getting high”. However, this medication has some unmatched qualities which make it a blessing to those who truly need to use it on a regular basis.

Following this, Aderall taken in large enough doses (I would say anything past 30mg) produces a much better ‘high’ completed with more euphoric feelings. As far as druggies are concerned Dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) is, again, ‘slightly better’ for some obvious reasons. It has a much shorter half life, but more intense effects.

From memory I believe the Adderall monograph boasted 12 hours where as Dexedrine had only 6 hours of activity (and strongly advised against driving while still getting adjusted to the medication). Dexedrine also beats Adderall when it comes to getting high because, rather then being packaged in capsules, comes in compressed tablets which are easier to crush and snort. This significantly reduces the onset time and produces a shorter more intense and more addictive experience.

However, one must consider that, for all intensive purposes surrounding the topics discussed on *this forum*, the medications that we ingest must aid us as much as possible while having as few undesirable side effects as possible. After all, the interest for Nootrophic drugs that brought this very thread into existence was rooted in one member’s interest to increase his congenital capacity (and not his interest to ‘get high on pills’).

Loosing control of one’s functions, overdosing, crashing and addiction are all unacceptable when such medications are to be implemented in a life or death situation. As you read on in this forum you will come to learn that we give the same amount of scrutiny to the poisons and toxins we plan to administer to our enemies, for their failure reflects as our own.

I do commend your correction on my explanation of how amphetamines function in the body. Although I initially intended to illustrate only the most primitive effects on the body, and rather focus on the qualitative side effects, you did well in elaborating on this. Thank you.

As for your flowchart of crashes, I must again correct you and state that (at least as far as monographs and my own personal experiences have gone to show) medications with shorter half lives have stronger crashes then those with longer half lives, this applies doubly to stimulants. I have found that Dexedrine or Modafinil (Alertec) would wear me out much faster then Adderall, ironically this lead to a better night’s sleep for me.

The idea behind Aderall was born out of physicians’ concerns about patients beginning to double and triple dose their medications as they became more and more tolerant to their initial prescribed dosage. Onsets and half lives for each of the four salts are supposed to be different. In essence they are passing the baton from one to the next. It can be likened to the study megalomania posted earlier in this thread where four different substances from four different families were used to bring about a similar effect.

Personally I like amphetamines for three simple reasons:

They can be taken at irregular intervals, with single doses providing the same definite boost every time. Many desirable effects are achieved without having to mix with other drugs.

They are safe in much higher doses then those prescribed, assuming you do not have a preexisting heart condition. Most side effects are fairly simple to deal with.

Addictions and growing tolerance can be resolved by discontinuing the medication and supplementing one’s sleep schedule, without serious physiological withdrawal symptoms to contend with.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Oh, I thought I'd add something. For those of you considering using uppers, in my personal experiances oral dextromethamphetamine gave me less heart palpitations than oral dextroamphetamine.

[NoMoreWebs]

While they act on the same chemicals, the methods of action are slightly different. For example, the extra methyl group in methamphetamine makes it slightly more soluble in fats, and thus a higher bioavailability.

This small change also effects where the chemical binds in your brain. Off the top of my head, amphetamine and it's isomers have the highest affinity at the 5-HT1 receptor sites, while methamphetamine has an affinity for 5-HT1 and a higher affinity for 5-HT2. This "small" difference when combined with the dopamine increase at D1/D2/D3 explains methamphetamine's higher tendancy to induce amphetamine psychosis at medium-high doses/after prolonged use(in contrast to amphetamine).

I'll admit, you're correct here. I try only to get as much general knowledge as I can.


Your secondary sources seem to be fundamentally flawed as well. You say you acquired your knowledge of these medications from “druggie” forums, you must consider that the main purpose of such forums is to discuss subjects surrounding the *recreational* use of drugs, rather then the practical use.


So you're saying I'm wrong? There's no way to measure which Amphetamine is better suited for use as a nootropic drug by looking at the pharmacology; and looking at these particular drugs from a recreational standpoint isn't going to change the effects. You'd have to look the experiences and opinions to really find out. If this were case, I'd say my so called "flawed" druggie source would be more valid.


As for your flowchart of crashes, I must again correct you and state that (at least as far as monographs and my own personal experiences have gone to show) medications with shorter half lives have stronger crashes then those with longer half lives, this applies doubly to stimulants. I have found that Dexedrine or Modafinil (Alertec) would wear me out much faster then Adderall, ironically this lead to a better night’s sleep for me.


Once again, it's all based on the person. I've heard the opposite from other people. Personal biology.

I'll also say that when I first learned of Amphetamines and their effects, I also looked at them from the perspective of using them as nootropic drugs. I still do.

[Nihilist]

Dextroamphetamine is not "the same thing" as Methamphetamine, as they act differently within the body. Methamphetamine(and its sterioisomer dextromethamphetamine) packs quite a bit more pep than amphetamine because of this.

Not quite...there are two stereoisomers of methamphetamine. l-meth and d-meth. l-meth is the stuff in vicks vapor inhalers, and it's basically useless(though it does give you a bit of a head rush - nice on E). d-meth is what people think of when you say "meth".


This small change also effects where the chemical binds in your brain. Off the top of my head, amphetamine and it's isomers have the highest affinity at the 5-HT1 receptor sites, while methamphetamine has an affinity for 5-HT1 and a higher affinity for 5-HT2. This "small" difference when combined with the dopamine increase at D1/D2/D3 explains methamphetamine's higher tendancy to induce amphetamine psychosis at medium-high doses/after prolonged use(in contrast to amphetamine).

I'm pretty sure that amphetamines are not sympathomimetics. That is to say, that they don't mimic neurotransmitters, they just manipulate their release/re-uptake. So amphetamines wouldn't actually stimulate any of the 5-HT(serotonin) receptors in and of themselves. They do release relatively low amounts of serotonin though. But they don't inhibit its re-uptake AFAIK.

But if you're right about that, then indeed it would partially explain the 'amphetamine psychosis' effect, as the 5-HT2 receptors are believed to be the ones that DMT uses to induce some of its effects, while the 5-HT1 receptors tend to block them somewhat.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Amphetamines are sympathomimetics by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathomimetic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sympathomimetic
http://adam.about.com/encyclopedia/000950.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000950.htm
http://cponline.hitchcock.org/apps/product/showtext.asp?cpnum=869&infotype=3&ixid=10000&ix=food&gname=&last=


http://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+sympathomimetic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

[Nihilist]

Amphetamines are sympathomimetics by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathomimetic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sympathomimetic
http://adam.about.com/encyclopedia/000950.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000950.htm
http://cponline.hitchcock.org/apps/product/showtext.asp?cpnum=869&infotype=3&ixid=10000&ix=food&gname=&last=


http://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+sympathomimetic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

Ah, then sympathomimetic is not the term i'm looking for. I mean that amphetamines do not directly bind to the receptor sites of serotonin/noerpinephrine/epinephrine/dopamine. They manipulate the release/re-uptake of the real hormones.

So, your statement here:


Off the top of my head, amphetamine and it's isomers have the highest affinity at the 5-HT1 receptor sites, while methamphetamine has an affinity for 5-HT1 and a higher affinity for 5-HT2. This "small" difference when combined with the dopamine increase at D1/D2/D3 explains methamphetamine's higher tendancy to induce amphetamine psychosis at medium-high doses/after prolonged use(in contrast to amphetamine).

Is incorrect, in that the amphetamines do not directly stimulate any of those receptors, AFAIK.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Not really. A quick googling brings up a paper suggesting that meth is indeed active(either directly or indirectly, I don't know. It's early in the morning) at 5-HT2.

....The neostriatal accumulation of 3,4- dihydroxyphenylalanine was not altered by ritanserin (1 mg/kg i.p.), a 5-HT2/1c receptor antagonist, or by METH (15 or 25 mg/kg s.c.), which indicates that METH-induced DA and 5-HT release did not invoke increased DA synthesis....
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/270/1/97

CONCLUSIONS: The results suggest that both 5-HT(2A) and D(1) receptors, but not D(2) receptors, are involved in d-amphetamine's effect on timing behavior in the free-operant psychophysical procedure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17051415&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum


Further down the list of googling makes me slap my head and say, "oh duh"; MDMA(methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), an analogue of methamphetamine) plays a role in 5-HT2 reuptake as it is an SSRI(or like an SSRI).

MDMA is primarily a seritonergic (5-HTergic) drug.....
...MDMA blocks the reuptake of 5-HT...
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info7.shtml


The data presented herein appear to strongly implicate the brain 5HT2 receptor as the site-of-action of the hallucinogenic PIAs and LSD. If so, this discovery represents a major step in understanding the molecular pharmacology of hallucinogenic drugs. Using radioactive hallucinogenic drugs, detailed properties of brain 5HT2 receptors indicating the interaction of 5HT2 receptors with GTP-binding proteins have been revealed. Autoradiographic studies have revealed an extensive cortical distribution of brain 5HT2 receptors; these studies have also suggested that the PIAs may be 5HT1C agonists. Radiolabeling studies in conjunction with drug discrimination studies indicate that MDMA is apparently "amphetamine-like" and not "LSD-like" while MDA is apparently both "LSD-like" and "amphetamine-like." However, MDMA does appear to possess the potential to act as a 5HT2 agonist at high dosages.
http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/600/1/626

[ciguy007]

Just a historical footnote.

When John Glenn was doing the first orbital mission in the Mercury program, there was some question about the security of his re-entry heat shield, and fear that the shield might displace, resulting in the loss of the craft and the pilot. One of the things he was ordered to do in preparation for de-orbit was take 5 mg dextroamphetamine to improve his alertness and reaction time. In certain circumstances, amphetamine can improve vigilance and performance.

I agree with the previous statements that tolerance to this effect develops rapidly, and continued use is more detrimental than useful.

[Vitalis]

I don't think amphetamines can really be called "Nootropic" drugs. Sure if you get all cranked up, your reaction time and alertness will be greater, but in the long term, all amphetamines cause damage to your dopamine receptors.

Nootropic drugs IMO are drugs you can take for the rest of your life and benefit from them. Ritalin also does not qualify.

[hatal]

Narrowing it down: nootropics are substances which enhance short/long term memory and cognitive functions. So substances with elevate mood or decrease hyperactivity don't qualify. In this case a clear line can be drawn between psychopharma and nootropics.

[megalomania]

Amphetamines can increase focus, concentration, alertness, and wakefulness during periods of intense studying. Ritalin is often referred to as "study buddies" for academic purposes. It is not something you would want to take all the time, but only during periods when you need to study. Exam time cramming comes to mind.

Amphetamines may not make you any smarter just by being on the drug, but they enable people to learn more effectively. Certain high functioning personalities, like med students, can study 12 hours a day. I want to drown myself after one hour. Amphetamines could give you the focus and drive to study that long without getting distracted.

In this context I would say amphetamine is a smart drug when used as a study aid. I have read studies saying methamphetamine does not work as a study aid as does amphetamine; Ritalin and Adderall are composed of amphetamine salts.

[jellywerker]

I've been looking into nootropics a bit lately, mostly for a creative mind release without delving into illegal drugs, as sometimes it's hard to come up with anything that isn't just more of the same with chrome on top. My question is how much can you get away with before anything's irreversible? Mentally that is. I've researched the physical aspects of the drugs and understand those limits, but is there a point with nootropics (or any drugs for that matter) where you just don't feel the same anymore when you aren't on them. You don't feel smart, focused, etc...?

And for the record, for starters I plan to synth/obtain modafinil and try it out with strong ginseng tea (rather highly caffeinated) and ritalin, similar to what was suggest by shooter3. My guidelines are mostly non illegal and non addictive. No meth, cocaine, etc....

[cyclosarin]

An anonymous survey, I think by psychology students from our uni was asking for students' experience with nootropics and included a list of particular substances which I saved out of interest.

Caffeine
Vitamins
- Vitamins B5, B6
- Vitamin C
- Vitamin B3/Xanthinol
- Vitamin B1/Arcalion/Spike
Herbs
- Bacopa
- Ginko
- Ginseng
- Roseroot
- Celastrus
- Gotu Kola
Stimulants
- dextroamphetamines
- Methylphenidate/Ritalin
- U4EA/intellex
- Methamphetamines
Analgesics/Pain-killers
- Paracetamol/Panadol
- Neurofen/Heron
- Codeine/Panadiene
- Aspirin
- Other opiate-based
Anti-histamines
- Claratine
- Claramax
- Allegra
- Zyrtec
Antibiotics
- Penicillin
- Ciprofloxacin
- Metronidazole
Cholinergic supplements
- ALCAR
- Choline
- DMAE
- N-acetyl-cysteine
- Huperzine A
Dopaminergic or
Serotonergic supplements
- Tyrosine
- Phenylalanine
- Tryptophan/5-HTP
Other supplements
- Pyroglutamate
- Phenibut
- Idebenone
- Coenzyme Q10
- Phosphatidylserine
- DHEA
Statins and Fibrates
- Atorvastatin/Torvast
- Lovastatin/Mevacor
- Bezafibrate
- Gemifibrozil
Racetams
- Peracitam/Nootropil
- Aniracetam
- Oxiracetam/Neuromet
- Pramiracetam
- Fasoracetam
Ergoloid mesylates
- Hydergene
- Gerimal
- Nicergoline
Ampakines
- Modafinil
- Adrafinil
Anti-Alzheimer drugs
- Galantamine
- Centrophenoxine
- Lucidril
Dopaminergic drugs
- Seleginine/Deprenyl
- L-DOPA/Levodopa
- Azilect
- Dostinex
Other drugs
- Pseudoephidrine
- Sudafed
- Vasopressin
- Pyritinol/Enerbol


On the topic of amphetamines, I believe the maximum theraputic dose of dexamphetamine for ADD is 60 mg in Australia, or 12 x 5 mg tablets. I take 30 mg daily for ADD and I find it has a very noticable effect on concentration and focus and dramatically improves my productivity which is appalling when I don't take it.

I also heard that amphetamines stimulate the release of some neurotransmitters as well as preventing reuptake. Apparently this is why l-tyrosine supplements are most effective for people taking amphetamines because they can deplete neurotransmitters after use. Personally I find that tyrosine is helpful in preventing the come-down feelings of fatigue and poor concentration when the dex wears off.

Tyrosine is an amino acid that is used in the production of neurotransmitters, it is used as such:

Tyrosine -> L-DOPA -> Dopamine -> Noradrenaline -> Adrenaline
Phenylalanine can be a precursor to tyrosine.

Also dopamine cannot cross the blood-brain barrier but L-DOPA (aka levodopa) can.

EDIT:
I'm sure some of the drugs on the list above cannot be considered nootropics and were included by for researchers' curiosity.

[ciguy007]

I've seen it said with good authority that the rapid rise to dominance in many fields by the japanese was fueled by the dumping on the japanese market all the amphetamines which would otherwise have gone to US troops for the invasion of Japan.

[megalomania]

So you are saying the post war reconstruction was fueled by amped up japs working 100 hour weeks? I wonder what the burn out rate would be? Of course life in Japan was very cheap then.

In modern days, how much productivity could one expect from amphetamines? I also wonder if a adderall-modafinil mixture would be of benefit. Despite the one trip report at erowid (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=12651) notwithstanding.

[blazter]

I can confirm that aniracetam does have some sort of biological activity. It is hard to say if it actually "enhances cognition" but it sure does seem to have a stimulant effect. Combined with caffeine, aniracetam worked damn well for pulling all nighter study sessions for finals, and I still had energy left over at the end to run laps as the sun was rising. With prolonged use, the effects did seem to diminish somewhat, and discontinuing use did seem to induce a rebound effect with tiredness, and typically a headache.

In summary, aniracetam seems to work well as a mild stimulant for staying awake long periods of time.

[spetsnaz08]

This site has a fair bit of info about nootropics http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showforum=119

Vasopressin Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14923
Centrophenoxine Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16331
Vinpocetine Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14299
Huperzine A Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14298
CDP-Choline (Citicoline)
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14296
Piracetam Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13934
Pyritinol Research
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13973

[ciguy007]

Given the research about Alzheimer's disease and the neurotransmitters involved (as evidenced by the drugs on the market to "treat" the condition), I wonder if a nicotine derivative might be one answer - perhaps a derivative that doesn't get activated outside the brain.

Just a random thought based on a symposium at a North American Congress of Clinical Toxicology several years ago.

[xx932]

Nootropics I take frequently:

Piracetam (2-6g powder - morning and sometimes at afternoon - terrible flavor)
CoQ10 (100mg nightly)
D-Ribose (for work-outs to eliminate lactic acid)
Kava (helps to get VERY deep sleep)
Vitamin B Complex (wakes metabolism up)
Picamilon (150-300mg daily in capsules - when stressed and sleepy, related to Niacin and GABA)
Coffee (really only a ounce with Piracetam gets me plenty awake - as needed)
Melatonin (antioxidant taken nightly)
And occasionally Adrafinil for study (much cheaper pro-drug to modafinil/Provigil)

These do work for me. Piracetam's helped me make the very best essays every time this year (started in October) vastly increases my creativity, and especially vocabulary - I can pick the correct word for a situation or remember things better. Definitely improves all brain functions. (Headache if I fail to take it). I've never had the chance to take any amps, but when sick, I'll skip the coffee and take a PSE.

[sbovisjb1]

I know that amongst students in campuses, ADD medications circulate frequently.

[ciguy007]

I have to take exception to the "if taken at recommended doses will cause addiction" comment. Granted, the definition of "addiction" is a little vague but I crossed swords (so to speak) with the chief of staff at a VA hospital neuropsychiatric hospital - he maintained that dosing at manufacturer - recommended maximum doses would not cause "addiction but might be an indication for tapering the drug instead of stopping it abruptly. To my amazement, when I flogged ll the major literature sources (medline, medical library search, etc) I was unable to defeat his premise. I think the "addiction caused by conventional doses may be mis-management of therapy by leading to a patient with a strong compulsion to take the drug - not someone who is gonna get into life-threatening withdrawal even if they get abruptly cut off. Sad but true folks

[spetsnaz08]

With the likes of piracetam do the effects last forever or a long time after use?Or do you need to keep on using it?

[sbovisjb1]

A lot of these drugs are "Natural" and in Canada (well not if bill-C51 wins) you can buy those at any supplement store.