questions about KClO4

[turbo923]

As you may know, this is my first post, so I figure I'll start it out as an educational process for me.

I've been reading the forums quite a lot, and just reciently joined. I'm planning to make flash powder for quite some time, but have a few questions to stay safe as possible.

Obviously KClO4 is pretty hard to come by, especially since I'm under 21. Is there anywhere I can get it online or in person? Pyrotek is located close to me (about 40 min), but do they carry KClO4? On their website, I couldn't seem to find it. If they do, can you buy it by going to their store, or do they only offer online/phone orders, and do you have to be 21?

If not, I might have a friend that could order it, but he's hesitant after having to send in all his information including his driver's license to be put on file. And then with the chemical being on the "watch list," he's even more hesitant. He's worried about getting in trouble buying it, so told me to inquire on here. Will he get in any trouble buying perchlorate online, then buying aluminum powder online later on in the week. No phone calls from the government? Personally, I'd like to get it myself and not have to go through someone, but if every place is 21, that's going to be a little hard.

Secondly, I've been reading a lot on this. It seems KClO4 is most stable of the flash powders. I don't plan on using sulfer in the mix, and plan on mixing about 25-30 gram batches. However, what it's going to be used for is shark fishing. Seems my dad used to use the old M-80's since the low frequency sound waves attract sharks. However, the new ones are obviously very weak and the sound travels, well, practically no where. So that leads to my second set of questions.

One, what affect does saltwater have on this flashpowder? I don't plan on letting them soak outside, but if I leave them in the boat and it's moisture rich environment, will they become unstable or not work?

Secondly, it gets rough going out sometimes, and I was wondering what it takes to set one off...would 2 or 3 hours of rough seas prematurely set one off?

Like I said, I've seen the power of these flash powders and read about what they are capable of, so I'm hesitant to thoughtlessly run head first into this. I plan on using the diaper method, and using as much safety precautions as I can (eyewear and gloves), and using small amounts, but like I said, one can't be too safe.

Thanks for the time guys! Hopefully this is in the right forum. I would think pyrotechnics, but it seems most flash powder threads are in here. Hopefully I didn't screw up first time. I also searched a lot of this stuff, but some of the specifics are vague.

-Dave

[Cobalt.45]

First you say you plan on mixing 25 or 30g batches, then later say you are going to be as safe as you can.

An ounce of KClO4/ Al blackhead flash, if it were to go off all at once as you made it, would leave you in a heap of trouble.

Try maybe 5g batches. Half of that will bake a heck of a bang, IIRC the military M80's held about 3g of flash.


Remember that a boat is an isolated, lonely place to be if you have a hand half blown off. Or a fire.

I don't know anything about fish attraction by flash powder. But I do have first hand experience with chum. Why reinvent the wheel? If there's shark anywhere within miles of you, a good chum line NEVER fails. M80's? Seems like a dud to me...

[turbo923]

Well, I wasn't sure, I thought the widely accepted method was less than 50 grams. But I guess starting very small would probably be best for a first time.

We do use chum slicks, but to get a nice 5 mile one going, it practically takes up half the day. Low frequency sound and the vibrations it causes stimulate a shark's lateral line and also has been known to stimulate the ampullae of Lorenzini, even though it's for electrical pulse detection. Plus, sound travels a lot farther underwater than it does above, thus extending the range far beyond what a day long clum slick could even do.

And if all goes well, I might make some for recreational fun, since I live out in the farm lands.

[Skean Dhu]

Well depending on how industrious you are and how much time you want to invest in this, you could make an electolytic cell to make chlorate and then convert that into perchlorate. Or since it looks like all you're after is a big bang you could use an alternative flash formula, one not using KCLO4.

There are many formulae for permanganate flash and chlorate flash on this forum as well as contained in the PFP database(finding it is your first homework assignment) .

As for storing the premade devices on your boat I would advise against that incase someone who isn't sympathetic to your cause finds them, or due to some unforseen event they go off. I might consider storing the ingredients in seperate containers on different shelves and would definately mix them the day I was going to use them. You could even go the extra mile and have everything premeasured so all you would need to do is mix and pour them into the casing. Which only needs to be water resistent for the delay of the fuse.

[turbo923]

Well, I wasn't planning on storing them long term on the boat, rather mixing them at my house, then putting them on the boat the night before the trip, since mixing them at 3 a.m. probably wouldn't be the best idea, especially with my alertness at that hour. I'd probably do something careless from sleep deprivation. And mixing them offshore in a rolling sea...that's probably not the best idea either.

I've seen other flash powder formulas, however, I figured with the environment they'd be subjected to, the most sable formula would probably be best. Unless the permanganate flash and chlorate flash formulas are not as drasically unstable as the perchlorate formula?

And the idea of making perchlorate is most likely out of the question. We play each weekend by ear, and if it's rough, or looks like a snotty day, we don't go out. I do want to use them for recreational fun, but I don't want to have to keep making batches only to have to use them all up having fun, or store them until the next good trip. Something I can do the night before, or in small quantities would be better, as opposed to spending the time and effort to make perchlorate, then the mix, only to not be able to use it right away and have to do it again and again over time.

Thanks!

[Cobalt.45]

Developing the flash powder itself, whether it is from KClO4, KMnO4 or black powder even, ultimately will be your decision.

If I were to want to do what you're trying, I'd have to go with black powder. You don't even have to make it. Just use BP, not Pyrodex or Triple 7, etc.

A somewhat larger charge is required to get the desired underwater thump, but when you consider the cost of a pound of BP from the Gun Store, and what you'll pay for the ingredients to make flash, then throw in the questionable legality of flash devices- you get the picture.

This isn't to say flash is illegal, but it's OK to carry around a "pipe bomb" made with BP. But it's easier to explain away having BP.

Isn't there any other "better" way to achieve your low frequency sound waves? A submerged water proof subwoofer comes to mind. Could be used with the same sound system your boat may already have.

Play some amped hip hop to 'em. Then just ride around and pick up the dead shark, who will have killed themselves to end their misery.Or, some Lou Reed. They'll float from a heroin OD.:D

[FUTI]

I saw some new speakers on web that are like those big balls people use to play on beach. Outer surface of ball is used as membrane of the speaker while the sound mechanism is inside the ball.

Go and search to see if that can be used to play the sharks what gives them pleasure... if it is water-proof just place it in the water. You will have to check will frequency we use in ordinary speakers that transmit sound to air be the same under water but...little experiment with computer can give you an answer.

[turbo923]

Well, the underwater speaker is full of so many flaws it'd be nearly impossible to do. I'm speaking practically and financially.

Now, with BP, how much would I need? Would the 12 gram CO2 cartridge work, or would I need more? And what about fuse? When it burns down, would the BP become saturated and not work? That seems simple and cost effective, but would it be the best bet?

Also, I was at Cabela's in Hamburg. Does the BP matter? Should I go with the "fast burn" BP or some other type...they carry about 20 types. I hope they have cannon fuse there too...but I didn't see any.

[krackerjack9]

I can just read the head lines now , Boaters blow their boat up for shark fishing!! While attracting sharks with a improvised explosive the fishermen had dozen of sharks circling the boat when one victim made the fuse to short and the explosion though it took place 20ft underwater was still enough to heave the boat upward and spill the two boaters in the water where the sharks utlitmately came what they were looking for.

[Alexires]

Uhhh, sorry to break up the party guys, but why the fuck are we bothering with this?

First thread = First post
Spoonfeeding request
Nothing offered in return
And this has all been covered.

The only new thing in this thread is the idea of hunting sharks with flash powder...

Turbo923, I have no problem with newbies asking questions (I am a relative newbie) but for fucks sake, follow the rules yeah?

You say you've been reading the forums quite a lot, but you must have missed the "Unwritten rules, written down" and the other newbie threads?

The least you could have done was post this in one of the MANY flash powder threads....

Here is my advice. Go read the rules, then the flash powder threads, then make your own (small) batch. Then you can test out the effects of saltwater on flash powder and post your findings back here.

Next you could go about making about 10 of your little devices and putting it in a box. Then make something that approximates the movement of a ship and attach the box so that you can test the effects of a rough sea.

If you come back to a bunch of splinters after a few hours, then you may want to rethink your idea of using flash on a boat...

[Cobalt.45]

Turbo, there's no way that Cabela,s has that many types of black powder.:rolleyes: Just pick the finest grade. Meal if they have it.

Fill a device with it, fuze it, light the damn thing and drop it in a bucket of water.

Modify as needed until you get a reliable device.

Post what you've learned back here.

And, in deference to the above rant, don't ask anymore questions 'till you've answered some yourself.;)

[ETCS (Ret)]

This is an unusual, but interesting, application for small "thumpers" which will go off some small distance underwater. Kinda reminds me of some of the devices we had at our disposal in the Navy for use against enemy swimmers - although those were much, much larger.

An underwater shock wave does travel a considerable distance at a pretty good velocity - much further than is possible in the atmosphere.

With a little creativity one can fashion a device from inexpensive and readily available materials which will be waterproof and, if desired, capable of being set off electrically by means of a small battery. I prefer electrical detonation personally, because it is ever so much more elegant than lighting a fuse.

As prior posts have indicated, there are many choices of materials which will be suitable for producing the desired shockwave. While KClO4 has many merits, even KNO3 will work admirably as the oxy source for a powder which will deliver a good thump underwater.

Look around this site to get additional ideas and be creative. Some of the greatest pleasure in doing any task is finding new and unexpected ways to accomplish it.

And, when you've tried a few things, provide feedback for others to benefit from.