Bit of related news

[Gerbil]

'http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6135612.stm'

The claim that he could build high explosives "within minutes" seems a little dubious :rolleyes: .

[sparkchaser]

Just another example of how a knee jerk reaction to terrorism can impede experimentation and first hand knowlege gain.

And people wonder why science is becoming such a "lost art" among the common folk.

In the 50s a person experimenting with those chems. would be aplauded for trying to further his knowlege.

It also seems to be an example of how pre-prescribed punishment can be detrimental to society. If he'd never been in custody, he never would have been aproached by actual criminals. I won't even start on the fact that if the media had not blown it out of proportion the criminals would not have heard about it to begin with.

[c.Tech]

Merseyside Police raided the flat he shared with his parents in May, seizing bomb recipes and chemicals, including sulphur, hydrogen peroxide and potassium chloride.
Potassium chloride :p seems like they ran out of chemicals to scare people with, but at least the sheeple don’t know what it is.

He had no links to terror groups or extreme political organisations
Taking into the consideration the amount of talk that goes on here about the government and such could we be considered an extreme political organization in the medias eyes?

[Match]

Taking into the consideration the amount of talk that goes on here about the government and such could we be considered an extreme political organization in the medias eyes?

I don't think it would be far off to say that eventually a local news
'Investigative personality' running into a dry spot will consider doing a story about this website. Citing it as an 'active community for the distribution of...' and using a local story of a kid using 'satans dirty cunt stain formula' for some exagerated hype.

Community = organization. O well, It'll be a interesting show :D :rolleyes:

[c.Tech]

Hasn’t that already happened? I read an article from a while back mentioning rougesci and a person who got arrested for just visiting us.

[mrtnira]

With recent changes in law to allow for preemptive prosecution, some people might be in trouble for just visiting the site, depending upon where they live and what else they've got going on in their lives.

Also, some times you can see where someone needs to make a name for themselves, and will use an emotional topic like "terrorism" to do it. Not every public official is an honest broker, but most are.

I do appreciate cops, unlike some (many) of the comments posted in the website. And, I've had the good fortune to meet many good, good cops over the years. I also appreciate reading everything under the sun since the dawn of time. But, as NBK2000 and Meglomania (and Jacks Complete and others) have pointed out, our societies have been moving away from the active, self-motivated individual investigation into the material world.

There is growing general attitude that information is increasingly only valid if it comes through pre-approved control channels, such as government run or government approved schools. Or that information is only valid if it is emotionally acceptable. The spirit of self-directed personal investigation into the world around us isn't as vibrant as it was 30 and 40 years ago.

Outside of the conventionally accepted flow of information you will often get this kind of emotionally assertive response: "You read what!? Are you a terrorist? Do you want to become a terrorist!?" :eek:

No. I just like to read everything published since the dawn of time. It goes along with being an archivist-historian. :)

The pattern of emotional reaction is akin to what I got in the 1970s when I was reading Mao and Che. Because the threat of Communist infiltration and war with Communism was on-going in truth, people reacted emotionally to my reading Communist-authored writings, but I was an anti-Communist personally.

If the threat of terrorism was distant, people would be less emotional in how they filter the information, and less emotionally reactive to people who read details of those things potentially related to terrorism. And you have to be honest with yourself, a lot of what is on Rogue Science (information) is dual use -- it can be used for good, or for evil. What determines its end use is the motive of the actor (the motives of the person with the information).

I imagine that if we could look into the life of the guy who reportedly got arrested, we'd see he had other things going on, whereby there was a 1+1+1 building of behavior and expression that led to the arrest.

Also, these web pages are retreivable on Google. In looking for information on recent jihadi publications, I found the thread I started on Rogue Science and it was readable with the click of a button -- no membership to the Forum necessary. With that, you can imagine that our odd conversations about everything since the dawn of time are easily monitored. And, considering the range of odd topics discussed on this website (and range of opinions), in the context of today's environment, Rogue Science would be monitored by the Forces of Order anyway.

Technology gives the Security Services the ability to monitor websites like this one, and the War on Terrorism gives them the reason to do it. So, we're all probably on someone's list. However, try to appreciate policemen and women, truthfully. Most are honest brokers who are trying to do an honest day's labor in the maintenance of good order to the public good. How that conflicts with free thinking and vibrant discussion about everything under the sun -- that's where the tension we're so uncomfortable with comes in.

We need to respect law enforcement, that is my personal opinion; and they need not to over-react to the pursuit of knowledge or to people expressing every odd position (most of which I do not personally agree with, but the principles of freedom require me to be a good listener).

In saying that, there will always be a small percentage of people in the larger population who would misuse what is written on this forum, and that is why the rest of us are probably already getting our (electronic) mail read. The horrible disregard for human life demonstrated by anti-West terrorists in the Madrid subway bombings, and then the London subway bombings, force the hand of the Security Services to be more assertive in the collection of information.

No, I did not eat the Patriot Act like candy. It is offensive to every cell of my body. However, I do pragmatically understand the problem faced by police forces, and the tension between pressing need and liberty. Long live the Bill of Rights, and let us work through our legal system to repeal the Patriot Act because it was an emotionally driven document, but at the working level let's give better minded cops some credit because they are trying to prevent another Madrid.

[c.Tech]

They may try to prevent another Madrid or London bombing but the laws they are setting are ridiculous, such as banning liquids and gels on planes (we all know that the liquid explosives terrorist plot was a scam). Focusing on the real threats would prove much more effective than what they have done.

[mrtnira]

Agreed, c.Tech. How things are done really does count.

The pendulum swings we observe (action-reaction) show that no matter how people try to get around it, these are really human institutions, run by people, and the policies and actions that flow from them reflect that human quality of good effort and error at the same time.

[nbk2000]

They may try to prevent another Madrid or London bombing...Focusing on the real threats would prove much more effective than what they have done.

Terror Storm by Alex Jones (Google Video) is a 2 hour documentary/rant all about how such things as 9-11, Madrid, and London were 'inside jobs' by their own governments!

[Alexires]

I understand where you are coming from mrtnira, but when you are in a conflict with someone/something or there is a possibility that you may be in a conflict with someone/something, any consideration other than for you and yours is detrimental to survival.

If a cop is going to bust me because of some bullshit law, I am not going to stand there and let them do it just because he is doing his job. Its like saying you should let someone else's army invade your country just because they are doing their jobs.

Yes, there is a place for consideration, loving and kindness, but it ISN'T on the field of battle, whatever field that maybe.

In my experience, a lot of police are police because of a psychological need to control and to feel special.

Not many do it because they genuinely believe they are helping people.

Same with politicians really *grin*.

[mrtnira]

Alexires,

I appreciate you position. And, I appreciate having a place to freely dialog with others, regardless of our differing definitions. True freedom of expression includes the responsibility to listen and to hear others.

Also, our perspectives are shaped by our life experiences. By sharing good experiences, we can encourage people not to be trapped where they had bad ones; and, conversely, by hearing about bad experiences, we might not be unwise or naive. That's why I try to put my comments into a context. It helps others judge the relative value of that comment, without it becoming an absolute position. Absolutes don't work well with human relations and power.

[Gerbil]

If a cop is going to bust me because of some bullshit law, I am not going to stand there and let them do it just because he is doing his job.

I see the point, but what else can you do other than attacking him or running? Both will have unpleasant consequences.

The same cop who arrests you for swearing 2 decibels above the limit is also the cop who arrests the kiddie fiddlin' junkie who robs old ladies. Ok, that's an extreme example, but you get the idea :p .

Police don't make laws, politicians do. Blame them ;) .

[c.Tech]

Police don't make laws, politicians do. Blame them ;) .
The police are still ignorant to be enforcing a law which is bullshit, for the stupid laws (such as keeping both hands on the wheel at all times) the police should be making judgment on how relevant the law is, I’m sure turning on your sirens is more hazardous than letting someone drive whilst leaning their arm beside the window.

Terror Storm by Alex Jones (Google Video) is a 2 hour documentary/rant all about how such things as 9-11, Madrid, and London were 'inside jobs' by their own governments!
I watched the video, very good thanks for that nbk :), I recommend it to everybody.

[Alexires]

I didn't mean that it was an absolute.

For instance, I got a fine the other day for not having appropriate plates on my motorbike.

I let them give me that fine, but if instead it was going to be 10 years in maximum security, I wouldn't have stopped.

There is a time and a place. I was more saying that you need to judge whether it is better to let them bust you, or run.

Its your call.

But, if its a choice between spending the rest of my life in a maximum security hell hole, and hurting a cop, I'm gonna hurt the cop, no matter how "innocent' he is.

I do understand where you are coming from though.