CPSC vs Firefox Case: "Urgent Update"

[Cobalt.45]

You might want to read what Skylighter has to say on this subject. See their site:http://www.skylighter.com/

Basically, this is what the deal is, taken from Skylighter's newsletter:

"HOW WILL THE FIREFOX CASE IMPACT YOU PERSONALLY?
The government is asking that the following items be
restricted in sales to non-ATF license holders:

* Oxidizers: No more than one pound per customer per
year.

* Fuels: None, unless they are larger than 100 mesh
particle size.

* Tubes: None, unless they are 10 inches or longer

* Fuse: No more than 25 feet per customer per year

"Oxidizers" are defined as: ammonium nitrate,
potassium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium
nitrate, sodium chlorate, sodium perchlorate, sodium
nitrate, barium nitrate, strontium nitrate, potassium
permanganate.

"Fuels" are defined as: aluminum, aluminum alloys,
magnesium, magnesium-aluminum alloys, antimony sulfide
or trisulfide, potassium benzoate, sodium benzoate,
sodium salicylate, sulfur, titanium, zinc, zirconium,
or zirconium hydride.

There are proposed transportation restrictions as
well, which could further impede your ability to get
what you need."

It's up to the CPSC and Firefox to hammer out a compromise, else the judge will do it for them.

There's more at Skylighter's site, as mentioned.

[InsertUserNameHere]

Dammit, just as I start getting into this stuff too! Does this mean things containing these chemicals (such as stump remover) will be watched too?

Stock up I guess...

[knowledgehungry]

I hope it is 1 lb of each oxidizer as opposed to 1lb of oxidizer.

The other funny thing abouththe oxidizer rule is that almost any chemical can be an oxidizer as the definition of oxidation is the loss of electrons, so any chemical that pulls electrons away from another chemical is an oxidizing agent. Therefore sulfur is an oxidizing agent in the reaction between it and Zn.

[nbk2000]

If the government is the one making the rules, you can be sure that it is 1 pound of ANY oxidizer, not 1 pound per oxidizer.

[cracker]

A smart man "hoards" what he can now of all Technical or better Chemical Reagents, even those seeming to be not usefull or not of the Pyrotechnic variety. It is my prediction that our time is limited with most "pure" sources. I believe not to far in the future all products will be monitered in such away as to be replaced by modern safer formulas. Even simple products such as "Para-Moth" Moth balls that are pure Paradichlorobenzene could be eventually seen as a threat. Dedicated "Pyros" and "Scientists" should buy what they can now as much as they can and bury it.

"One Day 50 Pound's Of 4Micron 99.7%/Mkobi59 Magnalium Flash Will "Resurface" The Earth's Crust, To Once Again Wreak Havoc Among Men."

[tmp]

Hard at work as always ! Yes, it would be good time to stock up NOW !
It would be an even better time to thoroughly review the various procedures
in this Forum's threads for producing your own chemicals. I already produce
my metal powders, chlorates, and perchlorates. There's plenty of information
here.

[Cobalt.45]

Notice how the CPSC has targeted KMnO4 as one of the oxidisers they want to regulate?

Potassium permanganate isn't even a chemical used in mainstream pyrotechnics.

But due to the possibility of oxidisers being harder to obtain, some will go and buy it, just because it's available OTC.

EDIT-
I had a feeling I had seen potassium permanganate for sale by one of the two main pyro purveyors and, sure enough, Foxfire sells it.:confused:

If they were smart, they'd use it as a point of contention. Argue to keep it unregulated, only conceding the issue reluctantly, after gaining something beneficial in the bargain.

As in: "Please don't throw me into that brier patch, brer fox!":p

Stuff's good for nothing pyro-wise, IMO.

[nbk2000]

Notice how calcium hypochlorite isn't on the list? Too OTC to be be restricted, given it's use in pools.

With that chemical, and various salts, you can produce chlorate, from which perchlorate can be be made.

[cracker]

The threats I spoke of are already effecting the availability of OTC Oxidizers. Calcium Hypochlorite, is largely being replaced by chemicals like Sodium Dichloro-S-Triazinetrione. Pottassium Permanganate has been on its way out for awhile now. A good example of this is to look at Anthracene or Paris Green, once widely available is now very hard to obtain. There are many examples like this and will only be more so in the future.

In the governments "perfect" society there are no poisions of any form, hence assuring their gradual and steady way out.

[nbk2000]

Anthracene is used in making Qualudes, and Paris Green is poisonous, being copper acetoarsenite (arsenic-based), so it's no wonder they were phased-out.

Lets face it, the non-government or non-corporate chemist is going the way of the Dodo. :(

[crazynlazy]

What I do not understand is why the government thinks that this will profoundly impact the average chemist. I am quite new to pyrotechnics, this, however, does not keep me from knowing how to make chlorates and subsequently perchlorates.

KMnO4 has never been something I have ever needed and nitrated salts come from my local agriculture shop. I also know how to make fuses, and fuels are not a problem either.

I would at first guess that the government's plan was to ensure that these chemicals only fall into the hands of chemists "smart" enough to obtain them.

The Government must know somewhere that this act of oppression does not pre-empt any terrorists but actually makes it easier for them considering the government is more worried about whether or not I will use Skylighter’s pure substances or my own. I think that my least favorite part of this debacle is that in the eyes of our dear government: there is no difference between a chemist and a terrorist.

But I imagine that it’s a top priority of uncle Sam’s that we ensure that American youth has a higher percentage of drug dealers than scientists these days.:(


As a side not from what I've heard it is one pound of each oxidizer. This however is probably subject to change though.

[10fingers]

The last time I bought something from Skylighter 3 years ago, they were limiting certain things like dark aluminum to 1 or 2 lbs. per person a year, even though none of the other pyro suppliers were at that time.
The things I bought were pretty inoccuous, no oxidizers, except for dark aluminum which has numerous uses besides flashpowder. I was doing some experimenting at the time with rocket motors. Perfectly legal to do. Anyway, about 2 years after this purchase, I got a letter from the US Dept. of Justice. It informed me that the chemicals I had purchased could not be used to make illegal fireworks. What I found humorous is that it took our every vigilant, on the ball government 2 years to send out this letter.
I do not think that constitutionally, the government has the legal right to regulate what chemicals you buy. There are numerous things that do more harm than the misuse of chemicals that are perfectly legal to buy, cigarettes and alcohol for example. Cigarettes kill about a half million people a year and alcohol another 50 thousand. Now compare that to the WTC. Hmmm, that's 3000 so that's a ratio of 1833 to 1.

[atlas#11]

United Nuclear has been talking about this crap for months now, honestly, do you really nead more than a pound of permanganate?

The rules are ridiculus, They won't help anyone, kids making firecrackers can still make plenty of flash with a pound of perchlorate, most of the pyro kids I know can't afford to buy much more than a pound anyways. Low grade flash is still avalible to the general public in quite a few states in the form of bottle rockets and small fireworks.

Is there seriously an underground market for homemade fireworks? Are enough people actualy producing illegal firecrackers to cause government concern? Or is this just some bullshit like prohibition, a bunch of whining soccer moms bitching because their kid blew off his unattended hands while she was out playing bingo.

I don't get exactly what they are trying to prevent, if there really is a market for illegal fireworks then I might not get a job after all. On the other hand, people calling themselves chemists have no business making flash powder (other than for strictly recreational purposes). The only thing that concerns me with these regulations is the crack down on nitrates. I haven't ordered any lab grade chemicals from anywhere in a long time. And it looks like I will continue to not be ordering.

OTC is far safer, I recieved a letter from The cpsc around a year ago, it was basicaly a warning about the manufacture of illegal fireworks and how dangerous it was (thank god they dont have a clue what the nitrates were really used for). Their emphasis seemed to be oriented around flash powder. Actualy what happened was the cpsc raided United Nuclears business and seized their computer. (Remember United Nuclear's privacy plolicy? well thank the patriot act for this one.) They got my name and adress out of their computer sales records and sent me a alarming yet hilarious letter. Honestly, who knew manufacturing pound after pound of flash powder could be dangerous, thanks morons, I'll keep that in mind...

[the_student]

The regulation of these chemicals, merely just promotes people to become more resourceful. After all, one can even make an explosive out of asprin, and i'd hate to see the day were they take aspirin off the shelf because it can potentially be used to maneufacture an explosive compound

[knowledgehungry]

Is there seriously an underground market for homemade fireworks? Are enough people actualy producing illegal firecrackers to cause government concern? Or is this just some bullshit like prohibition, a bunch of whining soccer moms bitching because their kid blew off his unattended hands while she was out playing bingo.


Actually there is a pretty large market for m-80's and quartersticks... Every red blooded American male. I have been to 4th of July parties where quarter sticks were in huge abundance(I was not the source), people do buy them.

[nbk2000]

10fingers, cigarettes and alcohol are physically addictive and thus a steady source of taxable income for the government.

If people HAD TO HAVE fireworks, like they needed a smoke or a drink, than you could bet your ass the government wouldn't be banning them, but taxing them. :)

[tmp]

NBK, once again you hit the nail on the head. Legally acceptable addictions
are a source of revenue for the government. On the subject, of KMnO4, it's
been reported here and in other forums that Sears sells this compound. I can
say that's true for the moment. I bought 6 LBS last night although a bit
pricey at $60 for 6 LBS. Cash only and no paper trails. The kid, probably a
temporary worker for the holiday, didn't even bat an eyelash when ringing up
my purchase. Sears sells the 6 OZ and 6 LB quantities. It's in the water
purification section near the automotive section. I'm wondering if this OTC
source will be regulated by the CPSC after their new regulations kick in.
OR, is this applied only to pyro suppliers kissing the ass of soccer moms ?
Fuck them and the CPSC in either case !

[megalomania]

Thou shalt not use a chemical not in accordance with its labeling. That's how they get you sometimes. Potassium permanganate can be used to make evil drugs! I have used a lot of it myself for oxidations, and I even have info to recycle the manganese oxide back into permanganate somewhere around here.

[krackerjack9]

Well I take the posting about is happening as a huge hint on what is about to happen and if one can read between the lines then one should be very resourceful and you might get a 30 or 60 day extention but are you really going to take that chance on Jan 15th???

For those who have licenses and such it might cause a few more headaches and such. But I would go out on a limb and if of those suppliers who customers say 50% do not have such licenses or say those customers account for 50% of said suppliers sales and now they will not be able to purchase said chemical.

How many businesses can survive a lost of 50% of thier sales or another way of putting it 50% of their customer base will be gone so how they going to make up the lost??? They will have to increase thier prices. This more than likely will be ones last chance to purchase any oxidizers and fuels. Lets see 20days from now will find out.

[10fingers]

TMP, I hate to tell you this, but you can get KMnO4 for water filter cleaners at most DIY stores around here for $17.00 for 5 lbs. Potassium permanganate is not really the best thing though for fireworks, too unstable, dangerous.
I wouldn't buy something from a pyro supplier anyway unless I had no choice, with hazmat shipping it's just too expensive. Plus, it kind of takes the fun out of the whole make it from scratch, DIY idea.
If someone was really interested in making their own fireworks, you can get a BATF license. Not that hard to do.

[tmp]

10fingers, the only other DIY store in the area that carries it is Lowes and
currently unavailable in the stores or online. Sears is overpriced to be
sure but getting it "off the shelf" means no paper trail. I rarely use this one
in any flash compositions but found it to be good for oxidations in organic
chemistry. As for making it myself I won't have to do that for quite some
time. My experimentation with pyro is limited and I do intend to get my
BATFE license in the future.

You're right about the satisfaction of DIY however. I make my own metal
powders and perchlorates. Also, producing desired nitrates from OTC sources
means I don't have to order online. Yeah, that HAZMAT is a rip !

[nbk2000]

Getting a BATF license for making fireworks/explosives is like lighting a cigarette in the Hindenburg...an invitation to disaster.

Unless you're trying to make a living doing it, there's absolutely NO reason to do so, as everything else can either be made yourself, or bought from OTC sources without inviting the Gun Gestapo to rape you.

[10fingers]

I think someone did light a cigarette in the Hindenburg. Some newbie pyro perhaps? If you are just making fireworks, a BATF license is Ok, if you're going to make explosives, not so good. I think they would frown on that.
tmp, the place I found it is called Menards. I don't think they are national though. You might also be able to get it through some online supplier of water treatment supplies.

[GlowinPontiac]

On the note of lost business for the online suppliers: I would think that most people who hold a license to manufacture/store would be purchasing the more common oxidizers/fuels in full drum quantities direct from the chem manufacturers/distributors. Therefore if severe restrictions or bans are placed on these common items it would affect way more than 50% of the companies business and more than likely force them to go out of business.

[SafetyLast]

It's so sad, since this whole firefox debacle I've had no source for Pentaerythritol and Nitromethane, Pyrotek is gone, I used them a few times.
The fuel thing really sucks, soon my only source will be the dregs, using only West System 400mesh aluminum powder, Bonide sulfur and filed Mg and Zn :<
The fuse thing is also ridiculous, at least the local fireworks store still sells it.

[nmp2]

Anybody remember when the Gov enacted "Scheduled Drugs"?
Every drug know to man on the list ranging from purely harmless to "spawn of the devil himself". Now drugs don't need to be added to the list, requiring lengthy legislation, the just need to be "upgraded" or shuffled around on the list to become actively illegal to own or purchase.

Guarranteed they set up a "schedule of precursors" that can likewise be manipulated on a whim.

[Cobalt.45]

Again I will state the obvious.

Thanks to this forum, we have a "weapon of mass instruction" at our fingertips that allow us to circumnavigate the fed's efforts to thwart us.

A debt of gratitude is owed by each and every one of us that come here to bask in the power of that knowledge.

I don't care if it's viewed as sappy or ass-kissing, but I want to thank Mega, NBK, and the rest of the staff for making this possible.

[Jacks Complete]

Cigarettes kill about a half million people a year and alcohol another 50 thousand. Now compare that to the WTC. Hmmm, that's 3000 so that's a ratio of 1833 to 1.
Sorry, but WTF has explosives got to do with the WTC? Remember, it was razor blades and brute cunning, no bombs required. Tell that to everyone, otherwise shit like this gets through unopposed, to stop the "next WTC".

[c.Tech]

Sorry, but WTF has explosives got to do with the WTC? Remember, it was razor blades and brute cunning, no bombs required. Tell that to everyone, otherwise shit like this gets through unopposed, to stop the "next WTC".

I agree with your post there all but one bit, explosives were used in the WTC bombings, but not by the terrorists. You can see the blasts coming out the sides of the WTC towers as the buildings fall into a perfectly symmetrical controlled demolition. But the good old press doesn’t care about facts do they ;).

To stop the next WTC take explosives away from the governments.

[10fingers]

Jack's Complete, explosives had nothing to do with the WTC. The point is that the war on terrorism has cost us billions and infringed upon our freedoms and has done little to solve the problem.
Deaths by terrorism are miniscule in comparison to a lot of problems in our society. Maybe all the time, money, and hype should be put to better causes?

[nbk2000]

Ah, but all the money time and effort spent fighting 'The War on Terror' has been put to good use, as far as the elite are concerned...furthering their agenda of world control. :(

[tmp]

I'm EXTREMELY well stocked up on visco. One other member on this board
can attest to that. In the past I bought minimums of 1000 feet. I'm used
to buying certain items in quantity anyway. The first time I heard about the
25 feet-per-year limit being proposed, I stocked up again. So, if you have
the resources, or can go in with your fellow pyros to do it, get yourselves a
nice, fat, roll of fuse while you can. Saw some rope fuse on a site. Must be
used for matchlock rifles.

[spaceninja]

Ok so it must suck having restrictions imposed on the amount of chemicals you can buy but you guys are lucky you actually have a place where you have a wide variety of chemicals to purchase.You should try living in the UK well Scotland at least,for me it is extremely hard to find any oxidisers at all all I can get is NaClO3 and KmnO4.The chlorate contains a fire deppressant and the potassium permanganate is quite expensive for small amounts.I beleive that KmnO4 is dissapearing from shelves in America quickly is because it can be used to produce 'illicit substances'(hmmm wonder what they could be....).

[Cindor]

Not only pyrotechnic devices, but drugs to.

[nbk2000]

Permanganate can be used to make methcathinone, a methamphetamine analog produced by the oxidation of ephedrine, rather than reduction (like meth).

[megalomania]

Spend, spend, spend! The war is going well. The economy is soaring to new heights. Nothing can stop us now. Gas prices are dropping, so buy that new gas guzzling SUV. Why buy used when you can buy new? Oh don’t mind those higher interest rates on your loan, they will drop, and a new higher paying job is just around the corner. Here is a free credit card my friend, you can never have too much credit. You deserve a better lifestyle. You work hard all day long at the collections company. Don’t let your credit limit be a barrier, get a consolidation loan and fill those cards back up. Spend, SPEND!

What goes up must come down, and what is down will go up. The war will end in a few years, the booming economy will cool, more and more manufacturing jobs will be lost, benefits and wages will be cut, and the interest rates will skyrocket along with the cost of living. Where will you be then with a balloon mortgage on an overpriced home, a car loan on a gas guzzler that depreciated faster than Keven Federline’s rap career, gas prices over $4 a gallon, a dozen maxed out credit cards with inflated interest rates, and no more bankruptcy protections or options?

When the margin call comes, and it will, millions of Americans will probably wind up in debtors prisons, or in debt for the rest of their lives. How will gen x’rs retire if they never saved a cent, and social security is long gone? The wealthy, the ones who see all this coming, will make the power grab. People will gladly sell their rights and freedoms for a few scraps of bread. The lawlessness of the vast impoverished lower class will necessitate a massively expanded police force, and new laws to protect the people from themselves. Justice will be reserved for the rich, and that won’t be you. Exercising your constitutional rights will now cost you money, but the bank owns you now bitch.

NBK has the right of it with his no rent philosophy. The key to getting anything done in this country is to have enough wealth to make yourself heard. Money is the physical manifestation of power, and if this is true then debt is equivalent to slavery or bondage.

I wonder if all these restrictions on chemicals may not actually be a good thing for us. Hear me out… Would the Hive have existed if all of those precursor chemicals were legal, cheap, and easy to buy? If the Hive had not existed I doubt I would have created The Forum. Would as many of you be here reading this if you could buy weapons and explosives at the state BATFE store? I doubt it.

Man is a resourceful creature, and putting a group of like minded driven people together may just create some good. These laws hurt us, but they also motivate us to fend for ourselves and come together to fight the oppression. Our revolution need not be violent, all we need to do is learn to make our own aluminum powder, mill our own gunpowder, and light up the sky with our forbidden fireworks. For every illegal law we thwart, we win. For every stolen freedom we exercise, we win.

As all the nations of the world become increasingly more corrupt and despotic we must learn to create for ourselves that which was stolen. We must be the force that reacts to their actions.

They ban, we build. They legislate, we recreate. They monopolize, we synthesize.

[GTOzoom]

I just logged on to skylighter and noticed that the potassium nitrate is now limited to 1 pound per order. Seeing where yesterday it was a MINIMUM of 5 pounds per order, I am assuming that the effects of the case are starting to kick in?

Does anybody know anything about this?

[Cobalt.45]

I just logged on to skylighter and noticed that the potassium nitrate is now limited to 1 pound per order. Seeing where yesterday it was a MINIMUM of 5 pounds per order, I am assuming that the effects of the case are starting to kick in?

Does anybody know anything about this?
A call to Skylighter reveals that they're low on stock. The limitation is temporary.

Firefox has no change, now or planned, to do any limitations. This is, of course, pending the CPSC case rulings.

The underlying thing that pisses me off, is the fact that many on line sales sites (eBay especially) sell S&H.

They make more profit from that than they do from selling the actual merchandise

[dumbrella]

Very nicely said Megalomania, pretty much sums the argument up IMO. I have always endeavored to buy over the counter, or make my own stuff anyway, as I have never had access to Firefox etc.

I think if you are capable of making the chems you need, you are probably intelligent enough to handle them. ;)

[sbovisjb1]

...
As all the nations of the world become increasingly more corrupt and despotic we must learn to create for ourselves that which was stolen. We must be the force that reacts to their actions.

They ban, we build. They legislate, we recreate. They monopolize, we synthesize.


But as the nations become corrupt, eventually its citizens/populace will decide to make a change. It has happened again and again through out history.

[mrtnira]

(Discussion).

Sbovisjb1's comment that populations force a change as societies become more corrupt is not a universal truth. There are places where it has happened in history, but there are plenty of examples of generational corruption and oppression that continue throughout the globe.

Several things must be present before change is forced by a population. Some generalized conditions: enough people must believe that change is possible, and that the cost of forcing that change is worth paying (mass and will). Apathy, or the disbelief that change is necessary, or unwillingness to pay the cost of change, all work against a population forcing change.

We view these things through the benefit of our (generally) western educational system and experience, but lots of nations (African, Central Asian come to mind) labor under conditions where popular expression really don't count, and things have devolved (or are devolving). Often, external forces must be present to force a change of conditions. The recent (1989) Romanian example, where the population itself, by itself, threw off 40 years of dictatorship, is a European model, and may not transfer to other places in the world, where other cultural and physical factors exist.

[jthenn1]

Not to beat a dead horse, but do you guys think that the government has the capability to keep records of every order placed for oxidizers or other chemicals in a given year? I find it highly unlikely that the new rules if enacted could/would be enforced in a timely and efficient manner.

[SafetyLast]

They don't call them "sheeple" for no reason.
The majority of the populace are blind and will blindly follow their government.
This is something that has happened in so many nations around the world and all powerful societies inevitably crumble to nothing.
As the government of a nation becomes corrupt so will it's citizens until it reaches a point where the the people are repressed into total poverty or the government is overthrown. It is like an adult setting an example for a child to behave.

[Cobalt.45]

do you guys think that the government has the capability to keep records of every order placed for oxidizers or other chemicals in a given year?
The government will damn sure tell the suppliers that THEY have to keep such records. To be viewed by the CPSC or BATFE, et al, whenever they feel like it.

So in effect, yes to your question.

[Altroman]

Think of it this way: If there is a "problem" involving energetic materials, you can be sure that those lists will figure prominently in any investigation. Remember - the Government is not a single entity! Every organization has a goal and a need to prove its worth to others, just like us discrete human primates. Even if the researching of each and every name on that entire list proves fruitless in those investigations, it will still prove that "due diligence" was exercised, and those in the gov't and the media can pat the (insert your crimefighting organization's TLA here) folks on the back for doing such a thorough job.

Political Training Tip#22: If you can't be good at what you do, then work hard to appear good to others.

P. S. With the cost of data storage immeasurably low, it's too damn easy for vendors to store a years worth of sales records on a CD-ROM or something, so the Fed's requests are quite reasonable from a technical and workload standpoint.

[fractional distiller]

The day we have all dreaded has come and past today is the 16th and I can not find anything on a ruling by those bastards by the CPSC. I have done numerous searches to find out what if any regulations have been set, but as of right now nothing is out there. I can not even find if there is an extension to the case to decide the terms.

All I can say is if an individual is so inclined to look at what the CPSC claims to be where they have there basis in being able to limit cetian products, anyone with a 1st grade education now (considering they all read that ealry now) that the only thing that they can ban are "products" that endanger children, or productsa that are not properly labeled. It even mentions in its definition section that they can not ban chemistry set or eqiuptment of the that nature. This is becasue there are always inherent risks when involving yourself with chemicals. Two if your gonna buy them know how to use them!

I dont care that little johny was a chemist, but little johny is no more for what he thought was H20 was H2SO4. Thats johny's motherfucking falt for not reading the label and eating or drinking in a lab setting. So when some dumbass mangles himself or set his ass on fire from pure inexperience I think we should sit back and laugh at them. Chemistry as any tihng in the world involves risk if your going to get involved be prepared to pay the consequences for it!

God damn soccer moms all angry becuause they were high on cystal meth and fucking the UPS guy and didnt realize her retarded child was eating the happy fun time chemicals he bought online.

[wymanthescienceman]

I agree 100% with fractional distiller. The fact is, only stupid and careless people are the ones who the CPSC wants to prevent the chemicals from reaching. Morons like those give our hobby a bad name and it really frustrates me that everyone has to suffer for the RETARDS in this world.

I say, if a moron kills or injures himself its HIS OWN DAMN FAULT. The CPSC is such a pussified organization trying to make our nation a bunch of non risk taking drones and I can't stand it.

[Bert]

Just because all the major (and non politically protected) dangers to consumers have been addressed doesn't mean you rest on your laurels. Your office's budget might get cut if you didn't find SOME new threat to work on.

Also, as has been addressed here before, it is felt by some bureaucrats that it would be well if average citizens had no chemicals at their disposal more controversial than table salt and laundry soap.

[Cobalt.45]

A problem we face having pyro and similar likes as a hobby/avocation is that we're under funded at the legislative level.

Many an esoteric belief/ hobby/ freedom has had rulings favorable and successful to them by the use of that ever-present group known as lobbyists.

I heard from a reliable source that the folks over at Firefox has gone this route, in order to get their message heard by the powers that be in Washington.

This is bound to be expensive and takes time (time=money, obviously) to get the ball rolling and grease the proper palms, but time is short, at least at the phase they're at now.

I wish them well, and continue to do business with them. It would be a shame to see yet another pyro purveyor bite the dust.

[Bert]

If CPSC wins the Firefox case, it will be essentially ALL hobby pyro/rocketry chemical suppliers who "bite the dust". With an established legal precedent, every supplier will be given the same treatment. Most of the smaller suppliers were driven out of business allready, as they didn't have the financial ability to contest CPSC. This was brought up at some length at the PGII business meetings at the 2006 convention, and a LARGE amount of money was raised for the CPSC defense

[Shalashaska]

The CPSC has already won the case. At this point, it's just at a decision of how much the CPSC can take off shelves.

[Bert]

Please provide any documentation of that statement at your disposal.

[knowledgehungry]

The CPSC "won" back in December, which is what the update from Skylighter siad back in the first post. What was to be decided by the 16th is what their victory meant. The judge ordered a compromise basically, CPSC will not get all of it's demands(hopefully) but there will be restrictions, the deadline for the compromise was the 16th. The letter said that there could be an extension up to 90 days I believe.

[Cobalt.45]

This is bound to be expensive and takes time (time=money, obviously) to get the ball rolling and grease the proper palms, but time is short, at least at the phase they're at now.
I wish them well, and continue to do business with them. It would be a shame to see yet another pyro purveyor bite the dust.
Bite the dust, not because of what the CPSC does or does not do- but because of the cost involving Firefox personally to hire a lobbyist.

This might be seen as an "all or nothing" effort on Firefox's part, and this I do know- it is expensive to hire lobbyists. An attempt such as this, were it to fail, might well pull a small business under, financially.

There's no longer any "if" the CPSC wins- they already have. Now it's a matter of hammering out a deal that will (hopefully) allow small pyro suppliers to stay in business

[Bert]

From Thomas Handel:

(quoted from PGI list)

In the Firefox/CPSC case, on December 6, 2006, the judge issued a ruling.

The judge directed both parties to negotiate a mutually acceptable plan for
enforcement of the regulations and applicable law which CPSC has authority
to enforce.

What that means is that CPSC and Firefox must reach an agreement on which
chemicals and supplies are to be limited in sales to non-ATF license
holders, and what quantities will be allowed to each purchaser.

The judge set a deadline of January 15, 2007 to present the agreed-upon
compromise to him. It is possible that this deadline could be extended an
additional 30 to 90 days if need be.

The judge indicated that he does not want to see Firefox forced out of
business. The judge has instructed both the government and Firefox that if
they fail to reach an agreement, he will make the decision. The judge has
stated explicitly that it is in the parties' best interests to reach a
compromise agreement--meaning that it is in both parties' mutual interests
for them to decide what to do rather than the judge.

What does this mean for our hobby?

1) Whatever we get, it will almost certainly be better than what the CPSC
wanted, but less than what Firefox would want. Given that the judge has
indicated his willingness to consider lesser restrictions than CPSC desired
to impose, we are hopeful. But it is too soon to know the final outcome.
And there is a very real possibility of further expensive and time-consuming
legal action. In the short-term, we must prepare thoroughly for the
upcoming negotiations, including creative approaches that might satisfy
CPSC's desire to ensure that pyrotechnic materials are only used in an
acceptable manner.

2) The fireworks hobby community will have input, either via negotiations
with CPSC or via submission to the judge, in the final outcome.

3) If a mutually acceptable negotiation is reached, our hobby will continue.
But, whether a negotiated settlement is reached or the judge himself
decides, it is inevitable that quantities of some chemicals available to
non-ATF licensed buyers will be reduced.

What do we need to do next?

1) The case is not over. We still have huge expenses ahead as we enter into
negotiations. Please make a contribution to the Fireworks Foundation. We do
not want to falter now that we are entering the home stretch. We absolutely
need more funding.

2) If you know federally elected or appointed officials with potential
influence at or upon CPSC, please contact John Steinberg, Tom Handel, or
Harry Gilliam immediately. Contact information below.

3) Please join the Fireworks Alliance if you have not already done so. This
will be the basis of our future efforts as we continue our long range goals
of working to develop a better regulatory climate for our hobby. Go to
http://www.fireworksalliance.com and sign up there. It's free.

The PGI Board of Directors, the Board of the Fireworks Alliance, and the
Trustees of the Fireworks Foundation want to thank each and every one of you
who has contributed time, money or effort to this matter so far. You have
made it possible for the Firefox case to get this far. Although the case is
not over yet, and there is still much legal work to be done on it, we want
you to know that you have truly made a difference to the fireworks hobby.
Without the strong showing we made enabled by the funding you provided to
defend this matter aggressively, FireFox would have been compelled to enter
into an agreement, crafted unilaterally by the CPSC, that would have
effectively ended their business and quite possibly our hobby years ago.

Thank you again, and, please, send those checks and PayPal donations to the
Fireworks Foundation today. After all, couldn't you use one more tax
deduction in 2006?

Fireworks Foundation:

Make your check payable to: "The Fireworks Foundation"

Mail your checks to:

Michael Swisher, Treasurer
The Fireworks Foundation
14511 Olinda Boulevard, North
Stillwater, Minnesota 55082

If you have political contacts, please get in touch with:

John Steinberg: jrsrocket@aol.com
Tom Handel: thandel@bellatlantic.net
Harry Gilliam: hegilliam@skylighter.com

Join The Fireworks Alliance. It's free:
http://www.fireworksalliance.org

[Cobalt.45]

Never mind the dated contents of contribution plea letters- give if you can but know a contribution today might effect proposed legislature some time down the road; I doubt it'd be in time to help the current situation.

The CPSC may possibly be out-witted, but not out spent.:rolleyes:

When the writing is clearly on the wall but has yet to be enacted on the legit purveyors, look for some "distressed sellers" on eBay hoping to dump what will soon be unpossessium in the eyes of CPSC/BATFE.

Beware of the BS'ers, but most of us know a few good eBayers that might have a good deal or two.

After that dries up? Break out the glassware and thank goodness for places like Rogue Science.;)

[Bert]

If you think a year ahead, plant a garden.

If you think 10 years ahead, plant a tree.

If you think 100 years ahead, educate the people.

-Chairman Mao

[cracker]

I received a invoice from Firefox Enterprises yesterday for a recent order. It stated that both the Lead Dioxide and the Barium Chromate that was ordered, were both out of stock. Nether is marked "out of stock" on there website.

I figure this is probably due to the larger volume of buys they must be experiencing due to the "panic".

The only reason this is kind of concerning to me is there seems to be several chems that have been "out" for over a year.

Will this list grow? If limits are made "buying volume power" could decrease possibly effecting order minimums for "their" suppliers .

[Cobalt.45]

Firefox remains the only "affordable" place to get barium nitrate AFAIK. Their custom milled (has cab o sil 1%) BaNO3 goes for $65.05/ 5lbs. delivered in the US.

While this is high, unless you want to make your own from BaCO3 and KNO3 or ammonium nitrate, etc., it is much better than the sole eBayer that showed up yesterday who was selling 30g for $9.50 delivered.:p

It seems that things can only get worse than they were. What remains to be seen is just how much worse, I guess.

[knowledgehungry]

From Skylighters Blog, posted 1/26/07:

Here’s the current status of the Firefox case. The judge in the case had instructed the government and Firefox to try and reach an agreement on what chemicals and supplies would be limited in sales and to what extent. The deadline was January 15th. That deadline came and went without the parties reaching an agreement. The judge has now asked each side to submit a draft to him of their preferences. What will happen is that the government will want severe restrictions on a long list of items, and Firefox will want looser ones on a shorter list of items. Each side can give the judge their reasons for whatever they are proposing. The deadline is February 28th. The judge will then decide what restrictions Firefox will have to abide by. Watch this space for further developments



The blog website is http://blog.skylighter.com/.

[cracker]

It looks as if some of the shipping restrictions have started. Firefox will no longer "ship" Commercial Thermite Composition at all. :( I guess you can pick it up in person though.

[c4goesbang]

The lowlife bastards.
http://www.usdoj.gov/civil/ocl/cases/Cases/Purrington/Firefox_injunction_opinion.pdf

[Gammaray1981]

And so die the future generations of chemistry hobbyists, and any hope of it being unnecessary to manufacture one's own precursors.

It appears I arrived too late, to an interesting pastime being shown the legal door. Oh well. It'll just have to be slightly less legal, then, won't it? I should think that anyone with a copy of WinHTTPTrack should make a scan of this forum, and the CCL, very soon. We might not be here much longer.

'Vive la revolution'...and may it not kill us all.

[tmp]

Don't "blow taps" for the Forum just yet. It would take a massive suppression
of the 1st Amendment for that to happen - something on the order of the
"Sedition Act" of 1798 or 1918. Under the 1798 version a person could be
imprisoned for 2 years. Under the 1918 version at least one person was
sentenced to 10 years. Both acts criminalized criticisms of the government -
in other words - open your fucking mouth about us and go to prison law. :mad:

The Patriot Act doesn't do this - yet. The closest thing to it was the Austin
case involving www.raisethefist.com. The law makes it a federal felony to
post "bombmaking instructions" on the Internet if one has reason to believe it
would be used in furtherance of a federal crime of violence. That bitch,
Senator Dianne Feinstein pushed that one through Congress during Clinton's
reign of terror on gun owners' rights. :mad:

In the FireFox case, the asshole, federal judge B. LYNN WINMILL, gave CPSC
what they wanted. The judge comes off as a political hack. In the Austin
case, not unlike redlight camera cases, the defendant is assumed to be guilty
from the start. So it seems in this ruling. So much for fairness ! :mad:

Most of the rulings in the FireFox case limit the amounts of materials an
individual, who doesn't possess the BATFE explosive manufacture license,
may be sold in a 12-month period. Other materials such as tubes <= 10" and
metal powders < 150 micron are outright prohibited.

I sincerely hope that people stocked up before the ruling. I started stocking
the 1st time I heard about CPSC's bullshit. This doesn't amount to much for
me because I produce most of my chemicals. Now maybe others who weren't
inclined to make it themselves have the incentive to do so. This Forum has
tons of information on that ! :D

[Rbick]

If anyone didn't notice, a large part of the reason these laws are being introduced is due to our liberal media and growing number of liberals in our government. That bitch Hilary Clinton wants to ban guns despite the clear cut statement of our 2nd amendment. If we can't have guns, I don't think there is much hope for chemicals either.

I happen to be reading a very interesting book, called "Godless" by Ann Coulter, who really rips into liberals and points out how rediculous and contradictory their actions are. Here are some examples and statistics from the book and from my own research.

Gun control has now become a law in Australia. The program cost taxpayers approx. 500 million dollars and countless federal employee working hours to complete. The result? Homicides with firearms are up 8% and crimes involving guns (assault, robberies ect.) are up 44%! YES 44%! Obviously criminals did not obey the new law... Suprised? Innocent people no longer have the means by which to defend themselves, letting the criminals run rampant. But what does CNN tell us? They tell us that crimes in Austrailia involving firearms are at an all time low.

A few years after oil drililng began in Alaska, "enviornmental activists" set off a bomb that destroyed a part of the pipeline, spilling an estimated 550,000 gallons of oil on to the tundra and into the ocean. It was one of the worst envornmental distasters in recent history. Not to mention the oil spilled could have been used to heat homes or drive vehicles. (Godless, Ann Coulter. Pg. 5)

Also, the probability of being involved in any type of terrorist plot involving explosives is EXTREMELY low. You're about twice as likley to be hit by lightning than to be involved in a bombing while in the US. So why arn't they focusing on the real problem? Drunk drivers kill more per year than explosives ever will. Still, I hear about people recieving 2 or more DWIs and being allowed to drive a year later.

There are countless other incidences where liberals manage to completely contradict themselves. Too bad they're taking over the government, huh? The reason they are pushing to ban chemicals so badly is because of they're ignorance of chemistry and the fact that they don't every use it. So why should they care about it? All they see is "Chemistry = Evil". Why can't it be like the good 'ol days (100 years ago) when you could go the hardware store and buy some TNT to get rid of those annoying stumps (a majority of my blasting is used for this). Explosives and chemistry arn't fucked up, SOCIETY is fucked up. My message to liberals: "Get a clue"

[Shalashaska]

I have to state how much I love this site. This is the ONLY explosives forum you'll find with people who aren't complete hypocrites. This is the only site where people that "hate the government" and want all chemicals and guns to stay legal don't hate the politicians trying to keep it that way.

My generation (I'm 16) is so f***ing backwards, it's retarded. The only wind they get of politics and government is from bands like Green Day and NOFX that have jumped on the hate Bush bandwagon. If you hate the president, at least have a fucking reason, not "cause umm... we're in Iraq."

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It takes a great deal of maturity to see the foolishness of one's own generation when a person is young and exposed to the pressure of the crowd.

CPSC is doing what it needs to so as to keep itself alive. "Firecrackers" or "M80"'s threat to "the children" provide that reason.

When the "Feinstein bill" became law I studied it quite closely. It appears to be sentencing enhancement in it's gist. I can't see anyone being prosecuted in itself with no other charge taken as a basis for initial prosecution. However, what it may be used for is a pressure mechanism for ISP's to stop providing service for sites that it could not ban due to 1st Amnd. issues.

The Bill also is a gateway to strengthen the Patriot Act. When the (voters of the) U.S. start to see the fact that both major Parties are very close in more ways than they are different then people may start to look elsewhere for real representation.

[sparkchaser]

Pardon me for being the devil's advocate here, but.....
I see the reason for the law even if I dislike it. The majority (but certainly not all) of the people who want to use these precursers unbeknownst to others are wanting to stay covert because they're generally using the chems for illicit reasons. If you have nothing to hide, there's no reason to not get the license. It sort of acts the same as weeding out the "kewls" in The Forum. If nothing else, you could very easily work through a licensed agent similar to people in New Jersey working through private individuals who have an FFL to ship firearms into state more easily than buying them at the local gunshop. So then there's the only remaining question....how hard is it to get the license and start ordering chems for your friends?

[plutobound]

This is a 'zipped' pdf file of a powerpoint presentation on getting and maintaining ATF explosive licenses. Prepared by the Crackerjacks Fireworks Club.

As an employee of a company subject to frequent inspections, I can attest to the reality of arbitrary, confusing, and nonsensical regulations and their implementation by the ATF.


As with all of these kinds of regulations (think airports), it’s security theater. Designed to make it look like they are doing something (political) by hassling innocent citizens and companies, growing their bureaucratic empires, and tossing harmless experimenters in jail in order to avoid being accountable for their utter failure to do anything meaningful.

[ChippedHammer]

Pardon the language but that ruling is a fucking joke. Only 25ft of fuse per year and no tubes shorter than 10". They wonder why not as many kids are interested in science at school any more.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

If you have nothing to hide, there's no reason to not get the license.

This has been the superficial "reason" given a lot of restrictive efforts. In banking, the "reason" for lack of privacy has always been that someone who has "nothing to hide" would not mind their banking being public. For that matter this concept extends to wire-taps as well.

The individual civil liberties and the rights to privacy go hand in hand with the Bill of Rights in the United States. GOVERNMENT should be transparent; not the lives of the People. The government works for us, not the other way around. We have come to a point in our existence where the Government RULES us. That is NOT the way I believe that it was envisioned by the Framers of the Constitution.

The People should never have to rationalize why we need privacy. What is OUR business is not the government's. If a person "has noting to hide" why should they mind if the government listens to their most intimate conversations?????. The "nothing to hide" concept is a very slippery slope that is mostly a one way street to dictatorship and oppression.

[megalomania]

The reason so many people are running afoul of the regulations and restrictions is because there are too damn many to begin with that should never have been enacted. Here we have a case of a few shortsighted politicians enacting a few very broad and vague laws that these criminal scum, the CPSC, then manipulate to achieve its own agenda. This essentially amounts to a non-elected individual making up and interpreting the law as they see fit, which is not how the government is supposed to work.

This is a blatant political maneuver by some nauseating bureaucrats to appear as if they are actually doing something about terrorism in an attempt to justify their existence to the current, and especially, the next administration. There is no link that fireworks materials are being used by terrorists, nor are there but a few incidents of accidents with fireworks, and those are from inferior imports lit by idiots who would have found another way to kill themselves anyway.

The terror connection is a red herring to make them look busy. Oh no, Osama can make bottle rockets, shooting stars, and M-80s. Terrorists could do more damage with a can of gasoline and a book of matches, or a propane cylinder, but you won't see gasoline banned anytime soon. Again, the CPSC looks like it is actually doing something useful instead of issuing recalls for leaky condoms and evaluating infant car seats. A car will kill more people in a day than fireworks ever killed since the days of Wan Hoo.

[c4goesbang]

[QUOTE]That bitch Hilary Clinton wants to ban guns despite the clear cut statement of our 2nd amendment.[QUOTE]

And Slick Willie appointed the judge that screwed firefox.

http://www.id.uscourts.gov/docs/JudgeBLWJud-Council.pdf

[Bert]

I sincerely hope that people stocked up before the ruling. I started stocking
the 1st time I heard about CPSC's bullshit.

You have 60 days from April 30th to buy whatever Firefox hasn't run out of yet. Ditto Skylighter or any other pyro supplier who didn't imediately cave to CPSC. Assume your purchase records will be available to the feds down the road, of course.

[Shalashaska]

Hallelujah, that means I'll have money before time is up. I'm gonna have to get all those things that are tough/near impossible to make. Hexamine for RDX, for sure. If anyone can't make nitric on their own, I'd suggest stocking up on that as well, since hydroponics stores might not have it for long.

[Alexires]

Sparkchaser - I live in Australia. That argument is always used here, and people cave into it to let another piece of shit legislation get passed. If you want to end up like here, then let it continue.

If you think you have it bad there, come to SA (South Australia), the murder capital of the world. Hell no, you can't buy a gun.....but fuck, a new glock (unregistered) costs as much as it does in the store....without all the redtape/license costs. Its a wonder that anyone here has their fucking license.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This is a blatant political maneuver by some nauseating bureaucrats to appear as if they are actually doing something about terrorism in an attempt to justify their existence to the current, and especially, the next administration.

IMO, this is an extremely important observation. Most all of the "feel-good" laws are contrived to develop a "voter-fodder" of idiots who want the "government" to enact morality via laws. That can never be accomplished. The reason someone does not strike out toward society or innocent individuals is that person's conscience and their individual morality. All the laws ever made cannot direct a person toward a productive co-existence with their fellows.

Mental health cannot be legislated. That should seem obvious but it is not so to many in both the EU & US. Those who still seem to think that objects are responsible for their use are easy vote targets for those who use that technique. It would be laughable if it were not so annoying.

The statistics of individuals who have been injured by fireworks are so low that they must be tweaked to get them to sound serious. So they pick out "the children" from those injured and because the percentage of kids are higher of those people who get hurt playing with fire, they simply use that. Thus when a law is enacted to save "the children" it's looked upon as a necessity. Who would not want to help children?

[Xenodius]

Wow. I am going to have to like, make my mom register at Firefox so she can buy another lb of 2 micron Al for more exploding targets, plus a ton of AN. Oh GEOOOSH! What the pfargtl is the government trying to do?

Stuff like this makes me so freaking furious!

Now I will have to get a BATF license if I want to continue in my hobby...

What about Ebay? I imagine they will be cut off as well. (Just remembered, there is a guy selling 5 micron atomized Al there... That would work for exploding targets! =D And infinite quantities!)

[sparkchaser]

Alright, if I assume correctly (the regs for ATF license haven't been approved for post yet) it is difficult to get a license. So why was a hobbyist license not considered for approval? something to help the hobbyist, but still block the kewls? Maybe a short test to determine at least a basic knowlege of safety, theoretical chemistry, etc.? If it works for the ham radio guys, it should work for us chemical guys. Hell, even the amatuer rocket and scuba guys have a series of licensing steps required for increasingly difficult procedures. Something along these lines would be acceptable in my eyes, since these types of regs have been in effect for so many different hobbies for a long time. But if the regs put in effect to get a BATF license are as difficult as everybody makes them seem, I see why the there's so much ranting!

[Gammaray1981]

The problem is, SCUBA diving isn't a terrorist activity, it's a relaxing hobby that people go on holiday to do, and get pretty certificates for. To the average person (read: sheeple), making weapons, including explosives, is a dangerous and forbidden activity, which doesn't even deserve the title of hobby.

Also, there is the consideration that any such licencing scheme would inevitably involve giving up your phone number, home address, SSN, fingerprints, retinal scans, DNA, rights to your soul, and so on. Not to mention the fact that people such as NBK would be denied any such licencing. (Convicted felon.) This rather puts a damper on any enthusiasm any self-respecting person would have for being licenced.

[tmp]

For an ATF explosive license you can't be convicted of any crime labeled a
felony or "any crime punishable by more than 1 year in jail". That takes in
most misdemeanors as well. Hell, that includes many traffic offenses here in
Maryland ! Then there other things such as magazine requirements that may
trip you up as there has to be a minimum distance between the magazine and
the nearest occupied structure depending on the type of magazine and the
materials stored. Lots of hassles including random inspections, etc..

[plutobound]

Since I was unsuccessful at attaching a powerpoint presentation on getting and maintaining ATF explosive licenses, I've setup a folder on rapidshare. A pdf of this presentation titled 'getting-legal' is in that folder (along with International Pyrotechnic Seminar Proceedings for several different years).

The link is:

http://rapidshare.com/users/8GJAD8

[tmp]

Plutobound, thanks for the .PDF file. I know I won't be trying for that license
now. In that file it lists Maryland as an example of a state where fireworks
manufacture is illegal. Seems only the wealthy with their factories are
allowed to do that here. So I'll continue on my own as the license is
essentially of no value. Thanks for the file anyway. I'm sure others will find it
useful.

[megalomania]

If the fedgov DID make allowances for licensing hobbyists, experimenters, and amateurs, then it would lend credibility to chemical experimentation and energetic research, which is certainly not what the fedgov wants to happen.

The fedgov wants to criminalize everything and everyone not suitable for ages 5 and up. They look at the dumbest idiot, set the bar by his example, and treat everyone else like that dumb idiot. The fedgov then becomes a socialist state, our nanny (big brother actually) that has to step in and care for our lazy retarded asses. Those of us who are not lazy retarded asses can suck it in their opinion...

[mrtnira]

The problem is, SCUBA diving isn't a terrorist activity, it's a relaxing hobby that people go on holiday to do, and get pretty certificates for. To the average person (read: sheeple), making weapons, including explosives, is a dangerous and forbidden activity, which doesn't even deserve the title of hobby.

Gammaray1981, I agree with your interpretation of scuba diving, of course, but many, many recreations we participate in as civilians came from military development and use.

For example, the U.S. Navy underwater demolition teams (UDT) and combat swimmers came into their own during the Second World War and used scuba. The money for enhanced development of scuba equipment really flowed from necessary war time government contracts. And, scuba got its post-war boost as a civilian sport because of returning service men. Likewise, so did parachuting because of the mass military exposure to that practice. And, having a glut of surplus parachutes after the war helped start that sport industry.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43358

The worldnet article is from 2005. There are many such news articles about scuba and terrorists. I pulled this one just as proof of argument for perspective.

You get the idea. One man's relaxing hobby is the next man's terror training routine.

In the old Soviet Union, youth motorcycle clubs, parachuting clubs, radio clubs, shooting clubs, scuba clubs, and karate clubs were all used for preparing youth for the military by developing such military necessary skills in their high school years before conscription into compulsory national service. At conscription, they would be directed to a service position related to their high school club experience (if they were competent).

Anyway, the list gives lot of examples of how a hobby can come from the military, but it does not have to have a military connotation nor be a threat when practiced as a civilian, and it can be accomplished when safety and care for others are exercised appropriately.

As concerns fireworks and pyrotechnics, up until the 1960s there were a lot more pyrotechnic hobbiests than today, and even more in the 1940s and before. Both laws and law suits have really put that hobby into the history books, for the most part.

[Rbick]

Well guys, the question is "What the hell are you gonna do about it?". We have made some great points in this thread, but we are just preaching to the choir. We need to get our ideas out there somehow, but how? I try talking to people, but everyone is too scared of the government to make a stand. Can we petition? That is a right we have as US citizens right? I don't know, if you have any ideas, I would LOVE to hear them. This government is really starting to piss me off though... :mad:

[nbk2000]

Go underground with your skills.

Become a prophet of a new religion, write a sacred text, and gain converts who'll worship the One True God...Pyro... in secret, until the day comes when a messiah will lead them to true freedom, and the holy warriors of the Jihad will spill forth from the sands on the backs of giant worms, to overthrow the CPSC emperor, and all shall know the love and wrath of a righteous 3-break aerial salute.

:D

You can start your new religion by teaching it to your children and hope that the D.A.R.E. cops don't get them to rat on you.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I really don't know if it's being "scared of the government" or common sense. Think it through for a moment. A person running around saying what? "Don't limit our rights to own toxic substances"? "Give us back our rights to blow stumps up"?
I can't see that as having a great impact but I empathize with your passion. The largest level of membership in the PGII was almost 800 folks world wide back in 2000.
I honestly don't think that's as solid foundation for an appeal as riding on a giant worm.....(it still strikes me as odd how "Islamic" Dune was.... "ahhh the Jihad!")

[Rbick]

I know I may have seemed a bit overboard, but I was thinking more along the lines of educating people about what we like to do. I don't think that'll really work, considering anything chemistry related gets automatically classified as evil. But at least I can try. I'll just settle for a license with the ATF for now, until the government decides to pull their heads out of their asses (which will never happen) :D

By the way, if you're looking for a fun religion to join, I heard Scientology is the way to go. You spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for no reason, it sounds awesome. Plus Tom Cruise is doing it, so it MUST be cool. Scientology will take over the world some day...

[megalomania]

Hobbies like pyrotechnics and explosives have always been an underground activity, even centuries ago. The knowledge to wield the mysterious power of flame has always been, and will always be, a great lure for many people no matter what the law of any nation says. Such power over flame is also frightening to the uneducated idiot, who in modern parlance is the soccer mom, the school teacher, the fedgov official.

In my view it would be better if all such activities concerning the flame were kept underground. The soccer mom can not fear what she can not hear, the fedgov will not legislate what it does not see, the store clerk will not pull from his shelves what is not being used in a dangerous fashion.

The greatest share of the blame can be laid on the shoulders of drug dealers. Their very public and destructive use of common chemicals in mixing up their poisons has forced the hands of the government to ban chemicals for the public good. It is not that we can't be trusted to wield the flame responsibly, it is that they have consistently irresponsibly made nothing but poison.

nbk cloaks his message in prose, but the message and the lesson of his words ring true. Don't bother crying to the government, don't bother trying to be legal, it is impossible. Even if you had the license, you do not have the popular support of the people; you will always be feared as a witch, a demon conjurer of the flame who knows things they do not. Gather all the knowledge you can, build your mental ansenal, proceed slowly, but deliberately, and out of sight of the community, friends, neighbors, the fedgov, and anyone who is not accepting of the flame. Out of site out of mind is the phrase.

They will forget. They will forget all about us. They will leave us alone because we do not bother them. This is why kewls are dangerous. Kewls are loud, they are visible, but they do not know how to control the flame, only to conjure it.

As a community the best weapon we have at our disposal is the collective mind power we all bring to the table. Each of us knows something, perhaps a fraction of a scrap of knowledge, but that scrap can be pieced together into a greater whole that can educate others. We have access to books, journals, our own experiments... By building off of what each of us possesses we can practice our skills in the privacy of our homes, bothering no one.

What few of you realize, what human nature really is, many of you are leeches. I try to be selfless, to put my money where my mouth is and build this community. Nbk spends a great deal of time maintaining order while I tend to the machinery. Some of you have great and wonderful things to say, you contribute, and ask nothing in return. The leeches say nothing, they do nothing, the contribute nothing, but they take and they take. For our community to be truly successful each man must contribute his scrap of information.

A gift as simple as scanning a rare book, or a new reference, will take several hours out of your life, but that gift can send a fresh infusion into the WORLD of the Internet that will perpetuate on website after website for years, perhaps decades to come. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people will get that book and use it. This is why people write books. Copyright issues aside, there are many books that are out of print - unobtainable. No amount of money can get you that which does not exist, or that which you do not know exists. Your gift, to the world, can be as simple as a copy of a book.

They will never stop us. One might as well stop human progress. The lure of the power of the flame is to strong. Any man that has ever looked up at the sun can feel the power of the flame pulling his heart and soul.

[Bert]

The largest level of membership in the PGII was almost 800 folks world wide back in 2000.

PGII membership is well over 3,000 world wide currently. Smaller than the Frank Herbert fan club, I would agree. But possibly more comited.

Yes, the main result of the CPSC's efforts is going to be folks laying low in the weeds rather than conducting their hobby legally and in the open, and likely a larger amount of their research and production efforts going into HE rather than display fireworks.

Between the CPSC's then threatened actions, and the DOT's crack down on those bringing their wares and creations to the convention, last year's competition had more first timers than I've ever seen. Probably a number of people thought they'd better do it while they still could... It will be interesting to see the difference in this year's competition numbers.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

If it's 3000 for 2007 that's a great thing but I doubt that is voting members (but I could be dead wrong; I haven't checked. I just read the little magazine for the tech stuff). I'll bet that was in direct reaction to the CPSC's legal issues. However Megaomaina's point about Soccer Mom's is a good one. The stuff of which we may find interesting is threatening to many. There is no way to make it palatable to the masses.

[nbk2000]

What if all the companies that do the firework shows for the 4th, DON'T do the shows this year, in protest of the CPSC ruling? That'd get attention to the issue, for sure.

[Zait]

Alright, if I assume correctly (the regs for ATF license haven't been approved for post yet) it is difficult to get a license. So why was a hobbyist license not considered for approval?

Why do you need a license? Are you purchasing high explosives? Are you engaged in commerce by selling the items you make? Are you transporting mixed explosive compositions off your property via public roads? Are you storing mixed explosive compositions (as opposed to making them and using them in the same day)?

If not they from what I read in the file (pg 4) that was provided you don't need an ATF license if you don't answer yes to one of the questions above. Of course many states are more restrictive so you should check those laws first.

Oh and in case anyone was wondering, here is the current list of "Explosive Materials" as defined by ATF http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/pdf/E6-15850.pdf and the link to the Federal Explosives Law and Regulations from 2000 (which they show to be the most current) http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/index.htm

[tmp]

Zait, I see that you have the same misfortune as I being a resident of the
left-wing jerk state of Maryland. In Maryland, only licensed fireworks
factories are allowed to manufacture fireworks and then only on site at the
plant. As for destructive devices, by this I mean ashcans, blockbusters,
cherry bombs, and M80s - get caught with one of those in Maryland and you
can get 25 years in prison. Same as for a pipe bomb.

The situation can only get worse for us as long as Martin O'Malley is the
governor. He's as left-wing as they come. I remember when he was mayor
of Shithole(Baltimore) City. He showed his political stripes(skunk) even then.
BTW, ALL FIREWORKS are illegal in Shithole City, Prince George's County, and
Montgomery County.

As for getting stuff that's illegal statewide(but not Federal), I usually go out
of state like most. Now is the time to do it. When mid-June rolls around,
the state pigs like to go undercover to other states bordering Maryland and
take down the license plates of Marylanders getting the nice stuff to bust
them at the state line when they return. I wonder if this state still does the
same shit with cigarettes(Remember, governor Fag Schaeffer ?).

The CPSC is making life miserable for all. I'm still stocking from OTC sources
where still available. I won't need too much more thankfully ! Best of luck to
everybody !

[Charles Owlen Picket]

What if all the companies that do the firework shows for the 4th, DON'T do the shows this year, in protest of the CPSC ruling? That'd get attention to the issue, for sure.

Quite frankly that is one of the best suggestions I have heard of. I am actually going to call someone and broach this subject. I basically doubt that would happen as people are greedy little bastards but they could interject something during the show that would pivot the CPSC question back at the feds. -=Fucking Good Suggestion=-! I respect action oriented concepts...

[nbk2000]

I'd imagine the 4th is the biggest money-maker of the year for pyro companies, but what's the point in making money now if, in a few decades, there'll be no one to take your place because there are no young pyro's wanting to become professionals after their home-made fireworks are no longer enough?

Since there will be no more home-made, or probably commercial, fireworks for them to play with, they'll have no interest in it as a profession.

Ask any professional pyrotechnician, demolitionist, or rocket engineer what they played with when they were kids, and they'll tell you "fire and fireworks".

Go on as if you were going to have a 4th display, but load the shells up with fliers about the decision that'll rain down on the crowd, and tell them the darkness and sucking sound of silence that they are experiencing is the future of fireworks if the CPSC ruling is allowed to stand.

[Cobalt.45]

I heard recently that the CPSC is gaining some more "power", in the form of expanded inspections of manufacturing sites in other countries.

It seems to have come about due to the recent Mattel toy lead paint scare and recall.

I wonder what authority they will be allowed to wield in the enforcement end of things?

Can you just imagine those low-eared choat-smugglers with heat?

It boggles the imagination.

[megalomania]

The evil director of the CPSC actually refused an increase in budget. He was upset because of the increased responsibility this would give him. The lazy fucker didn't want to increase his workload. This is why House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has called for his resignation.

If the CPSC had "other responsibilities" it will not be able to misrepresent it authority as ersatz lawmakers and ban all fireworks. The CPSC will actually have to waste its time protecting the lives of children from dangerous toys.

Something tells me if the Demorats do win the next election the CPSC may find their balls on the budgetary chopping block. Their pitiful performance is an example of a do nothing government agency that exceeds its authority while not doing its job to get rid of products that are actually dangerous. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say if the CPSC does get crucified.