HNIW - propositon rather for megalomania's administrator

[HNIW]

I have a lot of information about HNIW ( 2 pages ) about characteristics and methods of production that aren't presented on megalomania's site. Take a look
http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/hniw.doc
The problem is that they are in Polish, bacause they are from polish army laboratiories. If administrator would like to put some of them on his site I can translate it.
Methods of production are currently used in Polish army.

[Hex]

I think the Polish army has a little catching up to do! There is now a direct route from HBIW to TAIW, the tetracetyldiamino derivative - which can be nitrated with nothing more exotic than mixed acid. This is quite an unusual reaction for a nitramine, and even more strangely it appears that the N-acetyl groups are nitrated before the NH ones.

[Microtek]

Could you ( Hex ) describe that route ?
The one from HBIW to TAIW, that is?

[HNIW]

That information comes from recent book it was written in 1996, after 5 years something could have changed.

[Hex]

I could - but only if I want to be prosecuted! I'm not sure the patents have been processed yet. I'm not too sure of the details anyway, although I could get hold of them. I'll check to see if this stuff is in the public domain yet, and then post it. All I need to know is that the US company concerned have supplied me with 400g of TAIW to work on for them. I've had it for 6 months and only tried one (unsuccessful) experiment with it.

[Hex]

Looks like I'm not risking a firing squad after all!
http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=WO0052011&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD

This is pretty different from the I've seen, but the same general idea. I think there's a reference for HBIW to TAIW in there somewhere, if you can be arsed waiting for the acrobat pages to load.


[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 19, 2001).]

[VasiaPupkin]

to HNIW: Wow! - interesting info, is there any info available from that Polish site? (about other HE)

[VasiaPupkin]

to HNIW: Wow! - interesting info, is there any info available from that Polish site? Is it maybe without tranlating? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif (about other HE)

[CodeMason]

From the patent's abstract: <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The mixed acid comprises at least one nitronium ion source (preferably nitric acid) and at least one strong acid (preferably sulfuric acid) capable of generating a nitronium ion from the source.</font>
The abstract makes the nitration seem extremely easy. Does this mean we can use NH₄NO₃ (or a metal nitrate) and HCl?

[cutefix]

It was a nice synthesis but theH2SO4/HNO3 ratio is reversed if compared to conventional mixed acid composition used for nitration of TNT/NG/NC.It means that more nitrate ion is needed, and in order to attain this, the nitric acid concentration and quantity is very important.Therefore it is less likely that mixture of nitrate salt and dehydrating acid(H2SO4) will work , efficiently as the stipulated acid ratio and concentration…I think, it will be worser in a different acid medium like HCl.

[Hex]

Solubility of TAIW (or TADH as they call it) in HCl would be a problem, and don't forget even the strongest HCl contains 66% water - not good for your nitronium ions....

[HNIW]

VasiaPupkin this is my site. That info comes from WAT ( wojskowa akademia techniczna ) from Institute of explosives. I have a friend who was working there and I asked him for some info about HNIW. I have many scripts about HE from the army. My friend has a demolition company, he knows russian quite good and the best books about demoliton technics and explosives are in that language.
I'm not working in laboratories, so I'm not going to make HNIW, I thought that such info may be usefull.
I'm only using dynamite, amonites, pressed TNT or PETN in pentrite cords. Other explosives aren't used in demolitions so I don't even buy them.
Take a look here for professional explosions: http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/wyburzenia1.htm
and here to see what can be done without buying explosives, everything was made at home using average substances
http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/piro.htm

[Hex]

Some of that stuff is pretty impressive!! What's the bazooka thing - a rocket or a recoiless launcher? That is very cool

[HNIW]

Hex take a look on my boss site:
http://www.pirotechman.republika.pl/indexe.html
This site is in eglish and rather about pyrotechnics, our site about demolitions hasn't been translated yet. I prefer practical side of explosives like blowing up the boiling house ;-)

[Hex]

Those rocket videos are fantastic...
Is the launcher homemade or military? When you hit the car, is the rocket actually carrying the explosive, or is the car pre-wired? Looks amazing either way - also looks like there's a quite a blast of exhaust gases into your face from the launcher! Ouch!
I think you should post about this on the Improvised weapons forum, a lot of guys there would love this stuff.

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 20, 2001).]

[HNIW]

On that picture it wasn't me, thats my boss. Rocket luncher is fully homemade. It was made for movies special effects.

[megalomania]

Thank's for the information, I will have to give it some close inspection. I have been collecting some new explosives to put put on my site for some months now, but the data is still unorganized and in raw form. The discoveries of caged nitrogen compounds has simply exploded in the last few years, there are many new compounds that seem very promising. As such there has been a surge of publications that are tough to keep up with. I know the process I have is rather innefficient, they authors even said the synthesis needs to be much cheaper and more efficient to to be practical on an economic sense. Now it seems that time is approaching.

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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

[CodeMason]

Mega, you wouldn't happen to have gathered any information on explosives based on the cyanuric ring have you? There is of course the ol' cyanide azide trimer [CN-N₃]₃ (was this abandoned by the way because it was too toxic for practical use?), but I'm thinking of more novel secondaries. I'm interested because they would not only be incredibly powerful, but easy to synthesize with a possible starting material available at any supermarket (isocyanuric acid and its chloro- derivates are becoming more common than calcium hypochlorite here). On your site you discuss a fluoro-organohalogen explosive based on the cyanuric ring, are there any others that could possibly be made with less difficulty, like nitro and azido derivatives?

(PHILOU is also interested in such things, as I have gathered from browsing alt.engr.explosives for any relavent threads.)

[Hex]

I've seen some work with triazine aimed at producing precursors for hexaazahexanitro adamantane (like an "inverted" hexamine, with 6N's and 4 CH's).

cis and trans -1,3,5-trinitro-2,4,6-trinitratotriazine

3.1g of N2O5 in 20ml of nitromethane was cooled to 0C while a solution of .665 triazine in 15ml of nitromethane was added. The solution was stirred at 0C for 15 minutes.

At this point the authors add methanol to create the 2,4,6-trimethoxy compound. I'm not sure how (or even if) they isolated the trinitrato intermediate. (A Chafin, L Merwin, J. Org. Chem.,65, 4743(2000))

[cutefix]

This adamantane base for the explosive intrigues me.If it was as you say like inverted hexamethylenetetramine with 6 N’s and 4 CH’s,.Nomenclature sometimes confuses me.Adamantane can be called alternately as hexamethylenetetramethine(six CH2,fourCH's).Now if you alter one methine with a nitrogen, it will be called azaadamantane;therefore hexamine having four replaced methine[CH] group with nitrogen will be rightfully designated as tetraazaadamantane.So if you say hexaazaadamantane it looks derived from hexamine base with 2 more nitrogen in the basic structure.It seems very difficult to synthesize directly,much more to nitrate it.Triazines offer interesting possibilities for easier alternative synthesis.Adamantane itself is difficult to synthesize and also complicated to nitrate even to the tetranitro derivative.However there exist already the hexanitroadamantane(U.S Patent#5202508) which had complex synthesis also.but I cannot find any explosive properties.
By the way,is their any calculated explosive characteristics of this hexaazahexanitroadamantane?


.

[Hex]

I've never seen any figures for the theoretical compound, but I would be surprised if it wasn't in the HNIW league. It should certainly be very dense, assuming there are no quirks of crystallography involved.
The parent hexaazaadamantane is highly unlikey to be stable. Interestingly, (NH)6B4 has been made by heating HB=NH in a sealed tube. Don't know anything about the properties of that one. I've not heard any more about this work recently, I'll try an author search on the abs tomorrow and post anything of interest. I have also seen some detail of tetranitrato adamantane which has a far more favourable OB than it's tetranitro analogue.


[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 27, 2001).]

[cutefix]

I noticed with this tetranitroadamantane,its nitration is not done with nitric acid but by oxidizing the amino derivative with potassium permanganate.
See US Patent#4,329,522,for its preparation
The tetraaminoadamantane tetrahydochloride is first converted into a base by NaOH,thenreacted with MGSO4 and then oxidized with KmnO4 to form the tetranitro derivative.
How about the tetranitrato analogue was it nitrated normally?It is interesting to know its explosive properties,if there is any, as well as its oxygen balance value.
Indeed this tetranitroadamantane has moderately negative OB= -91
Check it form USPatent#4,535,193