Nitration of Elmer's Glue (Polyvinyl Nitrate)

[DONMAN]

(C4H6O2) + HNO3----->(C2H3NO3) + C2H4O2
(Elmer's Glue)+(Nitric acid)----->(Polyvinyl Nitrate) + (Acetic acid)

Emer's Glue, and many wood glue's, are mostly composed of Polyvinyl Acetate. This process is in it's infantility and I will carrie it out soon once I make some more Nitric acid. I will experiment with different wood glues and report back which has the least impurities. Of course I know to neutralize the acid and properly wash the substance but, do you have any impute on this before I give it a try? I don't believe that there are very many hazards involved but, it's best to get a second opinion on any unseen hazards.

If this does work I am sure it will be much cheaper than Nitrating polyvinyl alcohol, depending on the refining process. :/

[nbk2000]

http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/PVN.html

It may be possible to increase the nitration yield by adding the polyvinyl alcohol to acetic anhydride first and using more nitric acid, the procedure is followed as above.

Adding the alcohol to AcO would make PVA, so you're skipping the need for AcO by using Elmers Glue. :)

[FUTI]

I think that Ac2O react with HNO3 giving AcOH and mixed anhydride which then can be used with PVA to get PVN. However you will get some acetylation also and prolonged treatment with extra nitric acid is maybe needed to get best yields. Good sides of the process is lower temperature used (and needed), bad side is mixing HNO3 with Ac2O which is tricky...do it the wrong way and we will get MD5 number from your RS-tag in the mailbox ;).

I guess that people choose to use ester for nitration because it activate it sligthly and you won't have to remove water from mixture but AcOH instead which is easy with NaHCO3 wash-up treatment of the product. Also the glue is cheap and not on list of prohibited substances :).

[knowledgehungry]

Donman you don't have to experiment to find out the impurities of the different glues. Search for their MSDS, they will tell you what else is in the glue besides PVA and some might even tell you the ratios.

I am assuming AcO stands for Acetic anhydride and AcOH stands for Acetic acid?

[nbk2000]

AcO = Acetic Anhydride, just like EtO = Ether (Anhydride of Ethanol (EtOH)

These are typical journal abbreviations.

[DONMAN]

"MODIFIED POLYVINYL ACETATE EMULSION" is what all of the MSDS say for Elmer's Glue. That's why I was wondering if any of you knew what the modifications where or could direct me to where I could find its composition.

[stupid939]

It was kind of hard to find, but supposedly Elmer's Glue-All is made of a copolymer off polyvinyl acetate and polyvinyl alcohol. Like NBK said, it would be easier to use just Elmer's glue for the nitration since it already has some PVA in it.

Here is the site that I found it on:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03232.htm

[DONMAN]

Well in that case, Elmer's glue is quite good for the production of PVN. It's cheap, simple, and its not on the watch list as mentioned previously.

Now, I need just to make some Nitric acid. :)

[Cindor]

I mixed 40% Nitric Acid with Polyvinil glue and nothing happens, but then, after a lot of stirring I get something like Playdough, then I washed it with water and bicarb. solution and let it dry.
Now is a solid

In a few days I'll make more PVN and a detonator to see if it works.
Maybe mixed with some AN, or NG, but I don't know yet.

[nbk2000]

40% isn't strong enough to perform a nitration.

You need at least 70%, and sulphuric acid to remove the water of nitration.

[ultma]

40% isn't strong enough to perform a nitration.

You need at least 70%, and sulphuric acid to remove the water of nitration.

what about 65%? It works for the nitration of celluose

[nbk2000]

If you have sulphuric acid, you can make nitric acid of the required 98%+ concentration by mixing the dilute nitric with several times its volume of concentrated sulphuric, and distilling.

You then use that nitric in your reactions.

[Cindor]

I didn't want to use stronger NA or SA/NA mix to don't screw up the reaction since you are just changing the functional group of the compound

Anyway I get something, but now I'm not sure if it is PVN, what could it be if it isn't PVN?

[FUTI]

I didn't want to use stronger NA or SA/NA mix to don't screw up the reaction since you are just changing the functional group of the compound

Anyway I get something, but now I'm not sure if it is PVN, what could it be if it isn't PVN?

Yes in case of Elmers glue I guess your goal is to do good amount of transesterification (and esterification of free OH group with nitric acid), but doing it in diluted nitric is pointless since you will hydrolyse the ester and get PVA instead. Mega will Ac2O + NA work in this case?

[Enkidu]

I found an article on Polyvinyl Nitrate in Propellants, Explosives and Pyrotechnics. Unfortunately, I only have access starting at Volume 23 and continuing to the current issue. Coincidentally, I think that many other persons have a subscription similar to mine, as I've seen it on tmp's ftp beginning in '98 (Vol. 23).

BTW, I have access to many of the eJournals (at least from a certain time) and eBooks on Wiley Interscience, as well as many other eJournals on wide range of topics. If you want a reference, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll see what I can do for you.

So, here's what I want, preferably in PDF. Thanks in advance.

Volume 20, Issue 2, Pages 64 - 69

Investigations on Polyvinyl Nitrate as a High Energetic Material

U. C. Durgapal*, P. K. Dutta, S. C. Mishra, Jyotsna Pant
Institute of Armament Technology, Girinagar, Pune-411025 (India)

*Correspondence to U. C. Durgapal, Institute of Armament Technology, Girinagar, Pune-411025 (India)

Abstract

Polyvinyl nitrate (PVN) is one of the few known polymeric explosives. PVN was prepared by controlled addition of cooled nitric acid to a pre-cooled suspension of polyvinyl alcohol in acetic anhydride and subsequent processing of the reaction product. Nitrogen content of different PVN samples was in the range 11.76% to 15.71%;, and the molecular weight about 100000. Several properties of PVN have been investigated and correlated with its degree of nitration. Scanning electron micrographs of PVN fibres show a porous surface. Abel heat test values at 82°C indicate that fibrous PVN has a fairly good degree of stability, which decreases with increase in its % N. Addition of small amounts (0.25%; by wt.) of DPA, 2NDPA, carbamite and resorcinol into PVN (15.71%; N)improves its heat stability. With increasing %;N, ignition temperature of PVN decreases and impact as tetryl. With increasing %; N from 11.76%; to 15.71%;, heat of combustion decreases from 3744 cal/g to 3023 cal/g, and heat of explosion increases from 456 cal/g to 987 cal/g, due to increase in oxygen balance.

Received: 25 August 1993

[DONMAN]

I have performed a nitration on .5 g of Elmer's Glue All glue. Right now I am the process of purification of the final product. So far it is looking really good. It has become fiber like, although at this stage it is still in water.

[megalomania]

Propellants, Explosives and Pyrotechnics has finally been published in electronic format from volume 1 issue 1. The catch is you have to subscribe to one of Wiley's overpriced backfile collections (Material Science Backfile Collection).

I actually did an extensive search to find out which of the handful of US universities actually purchased this particular backfile. I will have to make a weekend out of it someday, but I will be off to get it. I will not be able to get every article, but I will grab as many synth related articles that I can.

Wiley is a greedy malevolent slime of a company that only cares about lining its already bulging pockets at the expense of letting even one syllable of scientific knowledge slip from its fingers uncompensated.

[Enkidu]

Actually, it's all on the FTP, I just couldn't find it. I've found it now. It's under FTP/organic chemistry/journals/jopep. I briefly glanced over the article and I was a bit disappointed.

[black mamba]

megalomania,

I am a student at one of the universities that subscribe to Wiley's. If you make me a list I could grab some of the pdf files for you. As a forum newbie I would love to help out in any way that I can.

[DONMAN]

Ok so after washing my product I am left with a white plastic that burns a bit slower than nitrocellulose. It puts off one hell of a stink when burned, let me tell you! Makes acetone peroxide smell like roses. It smells like burning electronics. I don't think this substance is very nitrated I was a bit rushed when I was making the nitration bath. I think I will retry this experiment again with better execution and more ample time.... Someone else please try this!

[anonymous411]

I actually did an extensive search to find out which of the handful of US universities actually purchased this particular backfile. I will have to make a weekend out of it someday, but I will be off to get it.

If it's at Columbia or NYU, let me know and I'll pull it for you.

[Enkidu]

Someone else please try this!

I've been working on PVN for a couple months now. Someday (hopefully) it will be a member publication here. You'll have to wait 'til I get finished for more details. ;)

@anonymous: You can check for yourself to see what your library has. For instance, go to your university library's home page and search Propellants, Explosives, and Pyrotechnics or The Chemistry of Phenols and see what you come up with.

[megalomania]

It appears Columbia may have it. If you go to CLIO, the Columbia Library online catalog and search for the journal propellants, explosives, pyrotechnics and open the listing for it there are two links for the electronic edition. The first link is for the 1998 to present, which just about every uni has, but the second link is for the backfile collection, 1976 to 1997. Clicking that brings me to a Columbia proxy login, so I can't further. If you are at Columbia you should be able to connect directly since access to Wiley's backfiles requires proper IP address authentication.

If you can get to the Wiley page, anonymous411, see if you can open any of the PDF files. IMPORTANT: OPENED FILES MUST BE 1997 OR EARLIER! Only articles from 1976 to 1997 are the ones no one can get. We already have all of the 1998 to present articles because these are commonly available from Wiley. The 1976-1997 articles are a separate subscription package that few universities have.

Just because there is a link does not mean Columbia has a subscription. I always get a link to RSC journals from my uni, but we do not have a subscription, so I can't get em. Only by opening an actual PDF file of an article can you determine if you have proper access, and only an article older than 1997.

Go to CLIO:
http://clio.cul.columbia.edu/webvoy.htm

Do a search for "propellants" with the default settings.

Click the link titled "Propellants, explosives, pyrotechnics [electronic resource]."

Open the link titled "Full text available from Wiley InterScience Backfiles 1976 to 1997"

From there tell us what you see. You should go to the wiley website, specifically the index for volume 6 1997 of Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics. Somewhere on the page there should be a link to a pdf version of the articles. I can't tell you where to go on the Wiley page because only authenticated users get to see the real version, and I ain't one o' dem :(

[anonymous411]

Will do! I don't have remote access, but can make the trip tomorrow. Any other requests for while I'm there are most welcome.

Edit: didn't make it today, try again tomorrow!

[Enkidu]

The Second Edition of Chemical Warfare Agents would be most welcome. The Duke put me on to this book.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/bookhome/114205277?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[The_Duke]

This thread is wanderin' way off topic...

I have gathered most of the JoPEP journals including the three issues released thus far this year. I am only missing those released 1980 through 1984, issue 6 of volume 4 (1979) and issue 4 of volume 18 (1993). If someone could get the previously mentioned issues the collection would be complete.:)

[anonymous411]

Megalomania: uploading files; see PM.

[anonymous411]

I just opened my control panel and found this gem in my reputation:

"Upload the files for the community, not just to Mega. secrets make me nervous and make me give negative rep."

Who said this to me? Speak to my face. There is no "secret"; I have zero problem putting these files where everyone can get to them. When I PMed Megalomania, that's what I assumed I was doing, since--rightly or wrongly--I assumed he was going to post them to an FTP or in a public area.

Yesterday, I had a VERY limited amount of time to get these files on the net, and as such uploaded them to a snapdrive account, which has no "public share" option. I mailed him the account name and password because I felt certain he wasn't going to delete them (unlike many people reading this right now). Once I get confirmation he received them, I'll be glad to open the account up to everyone who wants them. Anyone can feel free to point me to his FTP or shared public account and I'll be glad to upload them myself.

Obviously, in the future I'll find a better solution than snapdrive, but the situation is what it is. 39 subscription journal articles is the tip of the iceberg compared with what I'm prepared to upload for this group, so if you want to ban or somehow punish me for mishandling this, it's your call.

[Enkidu]

Whoever gave you that neg rep is a cocksucker. Only faggots get nervous and emotional. It doesn't tell you who gave it? It tells me who gives positive rep. I certainly doubt it was a mod. The moment you post the files for public use I'll rep you.

If I were you, I'd ask tmp for access to the FTP. I'm sure he'd give it.

What files did you find?

[anonymous411]

Thanks. Megalomania emailed me a list of links to articles he was interested in the subscription journal "Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics" and I pulled 39 PDFs for him. Since it was a list of links and I don't have access to the login from this machine, it's a little time-consuming to download each PDF and copy each title by hand, but here's a sample title, FYI:

“Tris-X”(1), A New High Energy Polynitramine Explosive: Synthesis
using Dinitrogen Pentoxide (N205) Technology(2), Characterization,
and Thermal Stability and Hazard Assessment

Interesting stuff--and very worth reading. Give me the definitive place to put it and it's all yours.

[megalomania]

Thank you very much, I downloaded them yesterday. I should like to mention I frequently request members make content available to me and the staff first so we can best get it out to the people before it gets banned, like with rapidshare links getting pulled. And who is to say what I may or may not be getting is even worth distributing to the group? I get a lot of boring stuff for other research.

[anonymous411]

You're welcome! I just finished uploading them to the FTP, along with an assortment of other PDFs the group might find interesting.

[Enkidu]

Haha, I also found this gem in my reputation today:

Cocksucker you say? Faggots you say? Shame, I was actually starting to like you too. Keep up the good work, but in the future it's be wise to mind your own.

Someone needs to get their twitchy finger off the rep button. It's a shame that a looser like that can erase seven rep points.

I guess some people will remain emotional and irrational. And hidden. :rolleyes:

[megalomania]

Only someone with considerable reputation power could remove several reputation points, that's how the system works. Consider now what you might next say with the knowledge that those with power have you in your sights...

Reputation comments are private for a reason, and they are not within the discussion scope of this thread.

[nbk2000]

Believe me, many's the time I wish I knew who the fuckers were that gave me crap via reputation, but VBulletin made it so you can't find out who did so, even as an admin. :mad:

I'm sure you could apply some math to figure out what rep level would be necessary to account for your lost rep points, then narrow it down from there.

[anonymous411]

I'm sure you could apply some math to figure out what rep level would be necessary to account for your lost rep points, then narrow it down from there.

I guess I can UTFSE and piece it out. It's hard to believe the system is set up so anyone can knock off nine points on a whim.

The facts are 1) there was no "secret", and 2) everyone is free to enjoy the 39 subscription journal articles Megalomania requested and the other 24 books I uploaded to the FTP. I literally did nothing wrong. Whomever you are, you might want to reconsider whether or not penalizing the reputation of a legitimate contributor is warranted, or indeed makes any sense at all.

I know if I had sabotaged someone's reputation in error, I'd be enough of a man of honor to make it right by flagging them an equivalent amount of positive credit in return.

What goes around comes around. I trust you'll be reasonable, think it through, and do the right thing.

[nbk2000]

A person can only give you rep once, good or bad. So even if they had a change of heart, it's too late to do anything about it.

[megalomania]

I think after a recent software upgrade they changed the feature so you can give rep again after a certain period of time has elapsed...

OK, see my new post on reputation on The Forum: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=92422

[DONMAN]

Hey.... this thread has become just a little off-topic, I mean the last 8 posts aren't even related to explosives or chemistry.

I really want to know if any one has got higher levers of nitration that me.

[Enkidu]

I've been working on PVN for a couple months now. Someday (hopefully) it will be a member publication here. You'll have to wait 'til I get finished for more details.

I'd imagine it's just you and me. Don't hold your breath for me to finish: I haven't worked on it again since that post. It will probably take me months and months to finish a fairly comprehensive PVN document, especially with all the interruptions I entertain. (I am actually dreaming of the preparations, rather than just compiling them.)

If I decide not to finish, you have first dibs on my files and notes, provided you want them. Don't hold your breath for that to happen either.

[DONMAN]

So do you have any helpful info right now? Or is it still in its infancy?