Spicy explosives

[INFERNAL-AFFAIRS]

Hello, I have come up with something interesting while I was doing some experiments on hydrogen peroxide, I was trying to oxidize some stuff with a friend of mine & we managed to oxidize some pepper with hydrogen peroxide.

Using highly concentrated peroxide I soaked some grains of black pepper for four days then dried them .the resulting grains were almost the same but they became explosive, I detonated some of them using hammer, but the stuff has low sensitivity & not dangerous to deal with.

Now I’m soaking some powdered pepper, it will be ready in two days, powder as obvious is easier to detonate but if you get the grains without powdering them you could grind them to the size that fits your purpose.

The proportions are easy, just soak the pepper with peroxide so that the pepper is completely drowned & the peroxide’s surface is a little higher than he pepper in the container that you are using.

[nbk2000]

I was almost about to ban you for posting what appears to be a typical k3wL recipe, but I thought about the remote possibility that this may actually be possible because of the percentage of oxidizable piperidine present in black pepper.

However, we know that an acid is required to catalyze the reaction, and where is your acid? Already present in the pepper?

If this actually is possible, I'm sure someone else here will be sure to let us know very quickly by repeating your experiment.

Of course, this assumes that you detailed the specifics adequately in the first place.

OK people, have at 'em. :D

[ultma]

I will repeat what type of pepper corns black peppercorns?

how strong H2O2 30%

inside or outside? in a clear or brown bottle? what temperature? light or dark?

[anonymous411]

Actually, I stopped reading at "I was trying to oxidize some stuff with a friend".

Cue: http://tinyurl.com/yg87fp

[mrtnira]

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=251&sid=1005214

NYPD Hosts Counterterrorism Conference
Dec 14th - 5:30am
Federal News Radio AM 1050

By TOM HAYS
Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - Inside an ordinary-looking trailer in Brooklyn, police have recreated the ramshackle apartment used by terrorists to cook up the explosives used last year in the suicide bombings of the London transit system.

Strewn about are empty bottles of hydrogen peroxide and containers of pepper. Filthy hot plates sit on a counter. Industrial fans provide ventilation.

The New York Police Department uses the replica as a training tool to help patrol officers, firefighters and other emergency personnel recognize bomb-making lairs that could be mistaken for a methamphetamine laboratory or simply a messy home, NYPD officials said Wednesday at a counterterrorism conference.

"It's not that easy to identify to the uninitiated," said Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.

Kelly and other NYPD officials addressed dozens of law enforcement officials from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Pennsylvania at the start of a two-day seminar at police headquarters.

The group was to tour the replica apartment to dramatize what the NYPD officials described as a mounting threat of homegrown terrorists _ possibly young men incited by radical rhetoric found on the Internet _ who could hatch plots in suburbs and other outlying communities.

"It's reasonable to assume that any attack on New York City may very well be put together _ the logistics, the planning aspects of the plot _ outside the city," Kelly said.

NYPD officials have done an exhaustive study of last year's London bombing, believing it could serve as a template for future strikes against targets in the city. At Wednesday's conference, they noted that the four suicide bombers lived well north of London, near Leeds, and commuted by car and rail to launch a coordinated attack on three subway trains and a bus, killing 52 people and wounding more than 700.

In the aftermath, police in New York had intelligence officers simulate the commute by driving from Albany to Poughkeepsie, where they caught a train to Grand Central Terminal.

"The reason we did that was to give us a frame of reference, to give us some sense of the challenges someone might face in doing something similar here in New York," Kelly said. "It also highlighted the regional aspect of the threat."

The mock-up of the apartment that the bombers had rented in Leeds for their makeshift lab was recreated with the help of photos and information provided by British authorities, NYPD officials said. Investigators believe the suicide bombers cooked up their explosives on hot plates using mundane items like hydrogen peroxide and pepper.

[nbk2000]

Jihadhi's are well known for their love of all things k3wL, so it's entirely possible that the ragheads were following some k3wL recipe that they had found on the internet, thus giving credence to the (probable) stupidity of pepper-peroixide explosives.

[anonymous411]

"Experiment"? Don't get me wrong, I think it's great he's interested in science. But throwing unspecified quantities of random shit together and detonating it with a hammer to test potency isn't exactly my idea of a proper use of the scientific method.

If there were more behind it than that, he should have provided a modicum of detail in the write-up. Failing that, people are going to conclude he's just some kid playing Russian roulette with blowing his his hands off. No matter how interesting his idea may be, if he can't prove it, it's irrelevant.

If you can't organize a real experiment, you need to a) read more until you're competent or b) fuck off and stop wasting our time. Either one is a-okay by me.

[Alexires]

I was about to engage in some serious newb bashing, but did a search before I did so.

http://blackhole.xerces.com/archive/index.php/t-1926.html

What the fuck? Hydrogen Peroxide sensitised with cummin....?

Is it just me, or does it look like they are alluding to boiling H2O2 until it is a very high % (say above 80%) and then using cummin to set it off?

So shit, if thats true, why the fuck not pepper? I still don't see how soaking pepper in H2O2 would cause it to become an explosive, but hell, stranger things (it seems) have happened.

I'm still looking.

If its around, it must be some cutting edge rag-head tech JUST released to the jihadi fucks.

Later:

Here is what the "bomb factory" looks like
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=the-bedsit-bombers&method=full&objectid=18415687&siteid=94762-name_page.html

Looks like the flour/pepper was the "desensitize" the AP.

Also there is this (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007871.html). What the hell...? Here they are practically calling AP a "liquid binary explosive" and saying that making it with 3 house hold ingredients are crap. *shakes head*. Some people will believe anything.

I gotta say though, sounds like bullshit. Internal Affairs, I think you're full of shit. Maybe you chucked all the stuff for AP together then decided to add pepper corns, and had the AP form inside the corns?

Thats all I can think of.

[knowledgehungry]

Alexires, I don't know what you are talking about in reference to the third article. It was a well written and fairly accurate article bashing the idea that TATP is anything like a liquid binary explosive, I suggest you read it again.

The Mirror article was also surprisingly accurate, the only disinformation I saw was that AP synthesis requires 30% Hydrogen Peroxide. It looks like the government is giving up on the idea of trying to keep TATP a secret, because it is impossible to do so. That article even mentioned us "There are even chat rooms, people having conversations about making bombs." Although we aren't a chatroom, and I am offended by the insinuation that what we talk about is mainly bombs, we talk about explosives not bombs(although occasionally bombs are discussed).

As to the pepper explosive, I am extremely skeptical, but I might give it a try today just to disprove this , I think I have some peroxide left over from back in the day. I am going to feel extremely k3wl doing it though :(

[anonymous411]

What black cumin and black pepper have in common:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoterpenes

I'm sure somebody around here who's properly trained could cut to the fucking chase, come up with something more efficient, and explain to the rest of us precisely what's happening and why. Now THAT's a post I'd want to read.

***

"Ripe black cumin fruits are reported to contain an essential oil (up to 7%) rich in monoterpene aldehydes; the main components are cuminaldehyde, p-mentha-1,3-dien-7-al and p-mentha-1,4-dien-7-al (up to one third each); terpene hydrocarbons are the main components of fruits collected in the wild or harvested unripe (γ-terpinene, p-cymene, β-pinene, limonene). The latter compounds are thought to reduce the quality of the spice. (J. Essent. Oil Res., 9, 597, 1997), (J. Essent. Oil Res., 14, 161, 2002,) (Food Chem., 41, 129, 1991)"

***

Original Article
Volatile Constituents of Black Pepper. III. The Monoterpene Hydrocarbon Fraction
1Department of Food Science and Technology, University of California, Davis

SUMMARY

The monoterpene hydrocarbons of black pepper oil were isolated both by vacuum distillation and by thin-layer chromatography. The following compounds were separated by gas chromatography and identified by infrared and ultraviolet spectroscopy: α-pinene, β-pinene, sabinene, β-carene, limonene, and p-cymene. There is evidence for the presence of a-thujene, α-phellandrene, myrcene, β-phellandrene, y-ter-pinene, and terpinolene. The monoterpenes isolated by thin-layer chromatography also contained small quantities of α-terpinene and greater quantities of γ-terpinene, p-cymene, and terpinolene.

[knowledgehungry]

Aldehydes certainly can pe peroxidized.

I would greatly appreciate some more information about the "synthesis"(I use the term loosely) especially the concentration of H2O2. If it was a 50% + then we may be dealing with sensitizing Hydrogen Peroxide rather than the creation of a new compound. If this is the case I have not the ability ot test this myself as I only have 30% H2O2(if I indeed still have it).

[Alexires]

Sorry knowledgehungry, I let my cynisicm blind me. I saw what I wanted to see.

I'm just so sick of all the media spin doctoring, of religion, of political bullshit, etc. *mutters*

Ok, so its possible that it is an explosive ketone along the same lines as MEKP of AP. But once again, the problem of a catalyst. AFAIK, an aldehyde cannot be oxidised by H2O2 alone. Then again, what the hell do I know? I'm only basing my knowledge on a very small resource pool.

Someone want to refute or agree with me? I'll ask at uni tomorrow.

I have 50% H2O2 at home. If you want me to give it a go, I'll see if we have any black pepper on the weekend and I'll try.

Internal-affairs, and hints on the process you used?

Edit: The only reference that I can find is on wikipedia (and we all know how accurate that is). It gives a warning against mixing hydrogen peroxide with aldehydes as it may result in organic peroxides when left for "hours". Whether this is catalysed by some other waste, or simply a hydrogen peroxide + aldehyde reaction, I don't know.

[I probably hate you]

Infernal-affairs where are you ? Don't you want to collaborate on your thread ? I think you are risking being labeled a k3wl ? Did you actually do this or did you get drawn into some totse BS and unfortunately believe it ? I am out of h2o2 otherwise I would give it a try .

[Gammaray1981]

I couldn't get it to work, having left it for four hours... but that said, I was only using about 25% H2O2, and very dry black peppercorns. So either it doesn't work, or you need rather stronger H2O2 than I have available. I'm leaning towards the former - this entire idea seems a little to TOTSE-ish to my mind.

[knowledgehungry]

From what I have read on the peroxidation of aldehydes it takes a while for it to occur(especially if no acid catalyst). Internal affairs did say that he left the pepper for four days. I still think this is a hoax, but to be completely justified in flaming this guy we need to at least follow his "method".

[megalomania]

Has anyone checked the pH of the pepper in solution after 4 days? It is possible there is some acidity, and since phosphoric acid is added to hydrogen peroxide to stabilize it, the reaction may just proceed given an extended reaction time.

Throwing together chemicals and systematically reacting them is how the ancients did it. Those guys would nitrate everything in sight. How else would we get nitro sugars, nitro grasses, and nitro motor oil (all in Encyclopedia of Explosives).

Onward fellow Rogue Scieans, let the peer review process commence!

[nbk2000]

Wouldn't surprise me if the next TSA advisory banned all condiments, especially pepper, from airplanes. Prepare for even fouler tasting airline food. :p

[stupid939]

I just checked the pH of my solution which has been sitting since 10:11 PM on 2/1/07. It seems to have a pH of around 4 (my Baquacil 27% H2O2 is just about as acidic).

I may dry out a small sample to see if it will detonate from a smack with a hammer. I started out with 10g of ground pepper and 100ml of H2O2, so I should have plenty to test over the next few days.

[ultma]

Using highly concentrated peroxide I soaked some grains of black pepper for four days

Does any one have any H2O2 >30%?

[Chaosmark]

Aside from UTFSE, if you had READ THE BLASTED THREAD you would have seen Alexires say, and I quote:

I have 50% H2O2 at home. If you want me to give it a go, I'll see if we have any black pepper on the weekend and I'll try.


And people wonder why we get so annoyed with people who can't be bothered to help themselves and do a little bit of reading. It's because with just a liiiiiitle bit of work, this forum will answer almost any scientific question you can think of. Start reading people, otherwise NBK will frag you so fast you'll wish you were Princess Diana.

Edit: Having had a few hours to think about this, I think I'll lay off on the ranting from now on. Since I haven't really added too much to the thread myself, I don't quite feel confident in laying into others like that. My point still stands however.

[Alexires]

As does my offer. I think I will try it this weekend, because I am interested to know myself. I'll leave it for a week, and I might try two batches, one with an acid catalyst and one without.

Anything else anyone wants me to try while I'm at it?

[ultma]

Anything else anyone wants me to try while I'm at it?


Ground and whole pepper corns

[anonymous411]

Alexires: Yes. Try reading this and other research like it:

Evaluation of commercially important chemical constituents in wild black pepper types

C. K. Mathai1, P. M. Kumaran1 and K. C. Chandy2
(1) Central Plantation Crops Research Institute, Regional Station, 574 243 Vittal, Karnataka
(2) Pepper Research Station, 670 141 Panniyoor, Kerala, India

Abstract Matured black pepper berries from 8 wild types, on chemical screening, showed wide variations in commercially important constituents. The results have been compared with those of the cultivated varieties. The possibility of exploitation of this information in black pepper quality improvement programmes is discussed.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w2q321w058820705/

Once you're thoroughly familiar with the chemical composition of cultivated varieties of pepper, go buy several types at the gourmet store and compare results from different strains. Even better, structure your experiments around precise, minute quantities of essential oil (also available at gourmet stores). Based on what reading I've done, pepper from Sri Lanka is supposedly the highest in terpenes; try that. Once you know a LOT more about what's working and why, start testing other spices that contain the same chemicals. If pepper and cumin work, why not others? From wikipedia:

"Terpenoids contribute to the scent of eucalyptus, the flavors of cinnamon, cloves and ginger and the color of yellow flowers. Well-known terpenoids include citral, menthol, camphor and the cannabinoids found in the Cannabis plant."

And of course, as soon as I read pepper contains alpha-pinene and beta-pinene, this was the big one that immediately came to mind:

TURPENTINE
Turpentine is a fluid obtained by the complex distillation of resin obtained from trees, mainly various species of pine (Pinus). It is composed of terpenes, mainly the monoterpenes alpha-pinene and beta-pinene.

I'm not sure what you could do with it safely (if anything!) so reading everything you can is essential--but as long as you're game, it's worth looking into. And for Christ's sake, find some other way of testing potency than banging it with a hammer. Do far more reading than fucking around and you'll be ahead.

[INFERNAL-AFFAIRS]

I'm sorry for the poor information about the quantities of materials but it's not easy to predict the right amounts since pepper is not a pure compound, any way as Alexires mentioned I raised the concentration of peroxide from 45% to 80% or a little bit more then I soaked it.
One more thing, I'm not a jackass, when I used a hammer to test the stuff, I didn't detonate a kilo or something like that, it hardly was a gram.

[nbk2000]

But the question is, has anyone else been able to replicate this?

Without reliable replication by other parties it's not science...it's bullshit.

[jimmyboy1]

This guy is jerking your collective chains - piperine is an amine not a ketone and all the other chems in pepper are only there in trace amounts

[Alexires]

...as Alexires mentioned I raised the concentration of peroxide from 45% to 80% or a little bit more then I soaked it.

Ahhh, a high concentration H2O2 huh? My guess is if anything, its the H2O2 going off, not some kind of pepper peroxide. We know that H2O2 is unstable at that kind of concentration.

The H2O2 probably soaked into the pepper, and when you hit it, it decomposed.

.....Why would you waste it trying to oxidizing pepper?

[Alexires]

I have prepared a sample according to what limited resources and instructions that I have.

I'll write a report when I test it next weekend, but basically I am preparing 4 samples of this pepper.

2 samples of 0.5g of crushed black pepper was prepared, as well as 2 samples of 0.5 whole pepper kernels.

They were then added to 4 seperate lots 10ml of 50% H2O2. To 2 lots of the solution (one with whole pepper and one with crushed pepper), 2 drops of 32% HCl was added.

A colour change (from clear to brown) was seen 10 minutes after the addition of the pepper. This colour change was only observed in the crushed pepper corns.

18-20 hours after the addition of the pepper, a colour change was observed in the solution which contained whole pepper corns.

Whatever it is going to do, it should have done it by saturday (its currently sunday).

Ill report back when I know more.

[Chaosmark]

We eagerly await the pepper peroxide (dis)proof. (I was going to try it myself, but I've no easily available source of good conc. H2O2.)

[Alexires]

Hypothesis: That common black pepper can be "sensitised" by oxidation via H2O2.

Introduction: The experiment is occuring in direct response to INFERNAL-AFFAIRS post that common black pepper, when left in a solution of high concentration H2O2 becomes explosive in some way.

Method: Two samples of whole black pepper corns and two samples of crushed black pepper corns were prepared. These samples were weighed out on a set of scales and each sample weighed 0.5+-0.1g. The samples were seperated into different glass containers, and to each was added 10ml of 50% H2O2.

To one sample of whole pepper and to one sample of crushed pepper, two drops of 32% HCl was added (in case some residue acid was present in the original "experiment").

The samples were left for 7 days to ensure that the reaction proceeded (if any was going to occur).

Results: Upon addition of the H2O2, small bubbles were observed in the whole black pepper samples only.

No discernable temperature change was present.

After about 5 minutes, a colour change was observed in the H2O2 of the crushed black pepper (both samples). The colour changed from clear to a light brown/orange colour. The same colour change was observed in the whole pepper corns after about 10 minutes.

After 7 days, all the H2O2 in the samples had changed to a light yellow colour (similar to that of urine). The whole black pepper corns had turned white in both samples. A biting smell was observed from all samples.

The samples were dried via cloth and then left in the sun for about 20 minutes. A single whole pepper corn was selected from both samples and placed on an anvil.

This single pepper corn was then struck hard with a hammer. No sound was heard indicating that nothing had happened. It seemed that the pepper corn was still wet inside. Upon repeating, I noticed something that looked like a whisp of smoke when the pepper was struck. The hammer test was repeated again and again, still with the same "smoke" appearing. This occured in both samples.

A single pepper corn was selected from both samples and exposed to flame. After a few seconds, a hissing was heard from the pepper corn and an arcrid smoke issued from the corn. The pepper corn then continued to combust, even when the flame was removed from the corn. This was repeated multiple times with the same result.

These same tests were repeated using pepper powder, but nothing occured.

Analysis: Well, I can tell you I was suprised that something happened. Unfortunately, I was unable to dry the pepper corns to bone dryness, but still some positive results occured. I was intrigued by this smoke that seemed to issue from the corns when they were struck. This smoke was very light and difficult to discern. It is possible that it was simply juice or H2O2 spraying from the side of the crushed corn. I couldn't smell anything, but it didn't look quite right to be juice from the corns.

Also intriguing was the self combustion of the pepper corn when heated. Possible explainations for this is some kind of oxidation had occured inside the pepper corn, and this was combusting. Personally, I believe that it was the H2O2 decomposing into O2 causing an oxygen-rich environment inside the corn which lead to combustion. The smell from the burning corns was quite unplesant, and I felt lightheaded when I stood up afterwards. This could be from the smoke, but I think its from the blood I donated the other day *grin*.

Conclusion: While the results were in no way definitive, they are enough for me to recommend that some more experimentation occurs. If someone could repeat the experiment, but with proper drying apparatus (not an oven) then maybe we could definately say yes or nay. Also, someone with access to a greater H2O2 concentration might want to give it a try as well.

If you have a problem, or something you'd like to ask about my method, please do. I am in no way infallable or a brilliant chemist. I did the best I could with my gear and time. *grin*

How interesting, people.

[mil&co]

Certainly interesting.

Possible further experimentation:

1. Trying the synth. with even more conc. hydrogen peroxide.
2. Trying the synth. with pure piperine, a method of extraction is described on lambdasyn (http://www.lambdasyn.org/synfiles/piperin.html). That way you're free of other shit possibly screwing up the reaction.
3. Trying the synth. with other "spicy" aromatic aldehydes such as capsaicin.:p

After 7 days, all the H2O2 in the samples had changed to a light yellow colour (similar to that of urine).
That might be due to the piperine, which has a yellow collor.

Furthermore, I don't know whether the supposed peroxide would be water soluble, maybe freezing the leftover filtrate liquor after the pepper particles have been filtered out to see if there is an ppt.

[FUTI]

If the piperine is cause of this (which I doubt...I put my money on some spurious reaction with terpenoid compounds which is hard to replicate as Alexires showed us by experiment) someone should test this with white pepper IIRC that one has highest piperine content of all kinds of pepper. I would do it myself but alas that spice is a rare bird where I live...or at least I didn't find it so far.