Oxygen balance

[Iñaki]

In the AP, when it explodes, the oxygen balance is negative, because there is oxygen needeed to burn the ethane to CO2 and H2O. Anybody knows what this implicate, for example, a fast explosion divided in two parts or any other thing? And if so, it must be instantaneously because ap confined (and without any oxygen in the container) blows up at higher vod (5200 mps) than not being confined (3000 mps). Any idea respecting this is very apreciated. Thanks

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"Nowadays this kind of knowledgment implicates power, but careful ´cause power makes people ambitious, and the ambition is what´ll make that stable explosive to blow up at an unthinkable moment...!" - me

[Microtek]

It just means that instead of CO2 there will be some CO, maybe also a little hydrogen instead of water. In this respect it is similar to TNT, which is so oxygen deficient that even some pure carbon is produced.
It also means that you could add an explosive with oxygen surplus and get more power out of your AP, but except for AN, most of those are so powerful that they would be wasted ( and dangerous ) if mixed with simple AP.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Except for AN ????
I heard that AN + AP is taking a serious risk !!
Be careful with what you reply, and for the topic starter, wait for a few posts before you act !!!
Or dream, because getting killed in a dream is like getting killed in reality, because the body cannot survive without the mind (saw the matrix again today)


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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

[Anthony]

The only dangerous/unstable aspect of AP/AN mixes is the AP content...

[Microtek]

As Anthony said, the AP/AN mix is no more dangerous than AP ( in fact AP is more powerful than AN so an equal amount of AP would be at least as sensitive and unstable and more powerful ). So, Brainfever, what else is there in my reply that I should be careful with?

[ALENGOSVIG1]

The AN/AP mix is less shock and friction sensitive but it is just as unpredictable as straight AP.

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How much power will you lose if you do not know what they already know?


Explosives Archive (http://surf.to/alexplo)

[Yikes]

I know that HMTD can be mixed with potassium chlorate. You will improve the oxygen balance that way, and it is said that the brisance is better AND that the sensitivity even drops a bit, making the mixture slightly safer to handle. (Don't remember where I read that..)

I see no reason why AP can't be mixed with chlorate, so maybe you should try sometime?

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

The chlorate will probably oxidize the AP too readily, causing sponateous detonation. Same type of thing as potassium permanganate and glycerin.

[Yikes]

In the reaction of permanganate with glycerin, the glycerin will react as an acid.
(Or so I've been told..)

I don't think AP is acidic in any way.

[RTC]

Yikes, AP is made in a acidic solution, so how did you come to the conclusion that AP has no acid?

No matter how well you wash it, there will always be acid present.

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We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see.

[vulture]

If anyone is interested i have the oxygen balance and a lot of other specific data of common explosives and i'll put them on the forum or mail you if you want

[nbk2000]

We REALLY hate it when people say "I've got (whatever)! I'll post it if anyone asks me.".

Just post the shit, and we'll either say "Hey, great stuff!" or "Hey, what the fuck is this shit?!". And then you'll either be praised or flamed.

Either way, just do it. Do or Do not, there is no try. And especially no asking.

RTC, AP can be washed to be acid free, though it may break down into acid products upon extended storage.

Which isn't too likely to be a problem with the way people here tend to go through the shit. :)

Soundtrack for this post provided by Blush Response on the Blade Runner Soundtrack by Vangelis

[Anthony]

It's even better when someone says "if you want xxx, post your email addy" then we get two or three whole pages of email addresses.

Even if no one finds what you post interesting at the time, it'll go in the archives and may prove helpful to someone doing a search in future.

If think AP can be washed to be "practically" acid free. Even commercial high explosives, despite numerous washing/neutralisation processes usually contain some acid. Usually only a fraction of a percent though.

[nbk2000]

What I've noticed with the "if you want xxx (not XXX ;) ), post your e-mail here", is that it seems like the person posting that statement never DOES post whatever.

It's an almost universal newbie indicator. You either post it, or you don't. If you're asking for people to beg for it, you're doing it as some kind of mental jerk-off.

But it does serve the purpose of getting some e-mails of people who don't have them available, so it could even be done on purpose by one of us sneaky mods, using a throwaway name, to keep tabs on peoples addys.

Either that or the FBI. You never know.....

And it's true that you'll never be able to remove that 1^-10 trace of acid, but there comes a point where it doesn't make jack shit difference anymore how little is left.

All I know is that as long as there isn't enough left to cause it to spontaneously explode (like happened to me once), than it's all good. :)

[vulture]

data order: oxygen balance, explosion heat [kJ/kg], shock sensitivity [J], friction sens. [N]
*NG + 3.5% 6770 0.2 >360 *EGDN 0% 7390 0.2 >360 *DEGDN- 40.8%4530 0.2 >360 *PETN- 10.1% 6400 3.0 60 *NC - 28.7% 4410 3.0 >360 *TNT - 73.9% 4520 15.0 >360 *PA - 45.4% 4520 7.5 >360 *Tet*- 47.4% 4770 3.0 360 *RDX - 21.6% 5720 7.5 120 *HMX - 21.6% 5680 7.5 120 *Nit*- 30.7% 3050 >50 >360 *MF - 11.2% 1788 1-2 3 *LA* - 5.5% 1540 2.5-4 0.1-1 *AC* + 34.0% 2045 15 >360 *MAN*- 34.0% 3610 15 >360 *EAN*- 25.8% 3905 10 >360


data order: Gas vol.[L/kg], Density[g/cm3], VoD[m/s, Trauzl test[mL/10g], Steel casing test [mm]
*NG 780 1.60 7600 550 24 *EGDN* 815 1.48 7300 620 24 *DEGDN*1030 1.38 6600 410 - *PETN 820 1.77 8400 520 6 *NC 875 1.67 6800 370 20 *TNT 730 1.64 6900 300 5 *PA* 800 1.77 7350 315 4 *Tet* 800 1.73 7850 410 6 *RDX 920 1.82 8750 480 8 *HMX 920 1.89 9100 480 8 *Nit* 1075 1.71 8200 305 <1 *MF 316 4.42 5000 130 - *LA* 308 4.8 5180 110 - *AC* 803 1.95 3400 195 8 *MAN* 1190 1.42 6600 325 3 *EAN* 1083 1.58 6800 350 2
*PA = Picric acid
*Tet = N-methyl-N,2,4,6-tetranitroanilin
*MAN = Methylaminenitrate
*EAN = Ethylenediaminedinitrate
*EGDN = Ethylenglycoldinitrate
*DEGDN = Diethylenglycoldinitrate
*Nit = nitroguanide
*LA = Lead azide
*AC = Ammonium perchlorate

i hope this is useful, cause it has been a nightmare putting this onto the forum....

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]
hmm, i can't get it into a nice list, does somebody knows how?

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]</p>

[PYREX]

The problem is not that AP is made in acidic solution, it can be neutralized by washing it with a soda solution. If the wet AP shows a PH >7 then there wont even be traces of acid anymore. In my eyes the problem with APAN is the HNO₃ which is always present in AN. Mixing in some 0.5% sodium carbonate would bring the PH on a less critical value.

[kingspaz]

isn't ammonium nitrate a slightly acidic salt anyways...

[vulture]

ive posted a word doc called DATA_Vulture.doc in the upload section of the ftp which contains the same data but correctly formatted ;)

btw, word has saved an author name which is a false name... (i'm a bit paranoia i know)

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]</p>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

[quote]In the reaction of permanganate with glycerin, the glycerin will react as an acid.
(Or so I've been told..)
I don't think AP is acidic in any way.<hr></blockquote>
No, it's an oxidation reaction...

Yes ammonium nitrate is acidic in aqueous solution. That is because it disassociates in solution into aqueous ammonia and nitric acid; nitric acid is farther from pH of 7 that aqueous ammonia, therefore it is acidic.

I have been doing some experimentation on KNO3/AP mixtures. First the theoretical stuff. I ignored AP's trimeric/dimeric nature in these calculations; that does not affect the calculation's accuracy at all, it just simplifies the equations.

First of all, the decomposition of acetone peroxide is the following because it is thermodynamically favorable:
C3H6O2 --> CO + H2O + C2H4 + 243kJ
not
C3H6O2 --> 2CO + CH4 + H2 + 220kJ

It would take an extra four oxygen atoms to allow the decomposition of (C3H6O2) to produce only CO and H2O as products.
C3H6O2 --> 3CO + 3H2O

Decomposition of potassium nitrate is as follows:
2KNO3 --> K2O + N2 + 2.5(O2)

So therefore the explosive mixture that would be desirable is the following (by mass): 31.4% (C3H6O2)x and 68.6% KNO3.
5(C3H6O2) + 8(KNO3) --> 15CO + 15H2O + 4K2O + 4N2

It would not be worth adding the extra potassium nitrate required to cause all carbon atoms to be fully oxidized to CO2, because the speed of decomposition per gram or per cubic centimeter would fall due to the reduced concentration of the acetone peroxide. It would decompose releasing more heat, but it lower the velocity of the expansion of the gasses too much to be worth it. Contrary to popular belief, the amount of energy released from oxidation of carbon is not the same for C -> CO as it is for CO -> CO2. The following equations assume that all of the reactants already ionized.
(C) + (O) --> CO + 1073kJ
(C) + 2(O) --> CO2 + 1390kJ

I have done some experiments with this mixture. It seems to be more shock resistant that normal pure AP. It seems to be similar in power also.

[vulture]

This site contains extensive information on calculating explosion heat and oxygen balance.

<a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/chemstry/chemstry.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/chemstry/chemstry.htm</a>

EDIT: the information doesn't seems to be correct.

<small>[ March 11, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[PHILOU Zrealone]

True that there might be a second burning rate of uncomplete overheated product of reactions when CTAP detonates confined out of direct reach of air.

Now lets correct a lot of mistakes:
Glycerin is not an acid; it is an alcool and alcools are neutrals (except maybe tequila when you lick the lime with salt ;-))!
Glycerin/ KMnO4 is a very special reaction of oxydation that takes place as it does when methanol/ ethanol or any soluble alcool is exposed to soluble KMnO4; the only difference is that if methanol/ethanol are mobile volatile solvants; if they oxydise, they will do it into formol, formic acid, acetaldehyde, acetic acid, water, CO2 and thus volatilise before taking ignition (since bp is lower than 120°C for all); volatilisation also cools down the heat generated by the oxydation and take away the volatile reactants.
Glycerin or glycol are almost non volatile, quite viscous and oxydise when heated to little volatile aldehydes/acids; reactants remains in contact with the oxydiser (no cooling by vapourisation); heat dissipates less faster and increases due to viscosity (heat transfert is low; so does cooling). Polymers of acrolein do form and the heat goes up and up until the mix take fire.Speed of reaction being strongly exponential towards heat...runnaway takes place!
Viscosity is a two blade knife since it keeps the heat but also slows the diffusion and solubilisation of the oxydiser; reason why by very cold days you can stay a few 5-10 minutes before it ignites; solubilisation explains also why active surface is important; a thiner powder will ignite much faster than large cristalls since its surface to solvant is much higher.

Speed of reaction factors are thus:
-particle size of KMnO4 (or active surface)
-Moisture contain in the glycol or glycerol; water reduces strongly viscosity but water will cool a little down the reaction by evaporation
-Viscosity (glycol is less viscous than glycerol --> faster).
-External T:
since viscosity decreases with T increasing
since diffusion increases while T increases
since activation energy is easily overpassed when reactants have enough energy (heat)
since heat accelarate exotherms exponentially, you get runaway.
-Amount of reactants; too rich at KMnO4, the reaction will fast burn; too rich at polyol, the reaction will be fast but without burning (maybe a little accryd smoke of acrolein)
-Starting quantity; due to scaling up factors, the cooling surface of a pile of 100g of mix and the one of of 10g are very different; 100g selfconfide heat and will take fire much faster due to internal hotspots where the heat increases exponentially.

Typical products of reactions are MnO2, KOH, H2O, CO2, HCO2H
and
HO2C-CO2H, HO2C-CH=O, O=CH-CH=O, HOCH2-CH=O, ... for glycol
and
HO2C-CO-CO2H, HO2C-CH=CH2, O=CH-CH=CH2, HOCH2-CO-CH2OH, .... for glycerol
Ratios depends on starting conditions, heat reached.

KMnO4 is dangerous with CTAP since it catalyse strongly decomposition of peroxydes; a single tiny cristal of it in your 1L H2O2 bottle and it starts to free all its O2 catalyticaly; I have seen a 25ml glass of 30% H2O2 gone in less than a minute with 0,1g KMnO4 droped in it (do this outside and from a safe distance). Once you have done this, imagine what happens when it reacts with 100% H2O2.
Heat is produced and CTAP is equivalent to 100% peroxyde contain --> booom can occur at any moment!

KClO3 is dangerous with CTAP since any residual acid can produce in situ next to your primary the not too nice acid HClO3; HClO3 is unstable over 40% and free some gaseous Cl2O5; Cl2O5 decompose into ClO2 and O2; ClO2 is spontaneously flamable when in contact with fuels (ClO2 does not only ignite, but explode too because of its endothermicity).
This mix can also explode at any moment if not 100% wel neutralised!

[PHILOU Zrealone]

I had to split the post in 2 due to a lack of memory:

NH4NO3 as an oxydiser is good but the mix is not much safer since for equivalent power (there is little chance it is superior since VOD of CTriAP is 5km/s max at max density and the one of AN is between 2 and 3,3km/s (when at low density)- hard to combine low and high density at the same time).
Also AN is quite unsensitive and it needs more than AP to fully detonate. Anyway the sensitivity of a mix of two components that are disciminated (you can't mix perfectly the two and ballmill them safely to perfect smooth homogenous mix) is ruled by the most sensitive of the two components; it may look less sensitive from a gross outlook but when you look at it closer, due to inhomogeneities, the risk is about the same as handling plain CTAP.
So never trust those mix more than pure CTAP.
For those who have the will for power and the taste of risk, use NH4ClO4 about 10 times more sensitive than NH4NO3, VOD of 4,5 km/s at maximum density; the mix of the two will for sure reach more than both components appart due to compensation of positive and negative OB to reach a near perfect OB -NH4ClO4 must be absolutely NH4ClO3 free!!!

NH4NO3 is indeed acidic, but there is absolutely no hydrolysis into NH3 and HNO3; reason it is acidic is simply due to the fact NH4NO3 is the salt of a strong acid with a weak base; there is a rule in acid-base chemistry that says:
The conjugated base of a strong acid is neutral.
The conjugated base of a weak acid is a weak base.
The conjugated base of a very weak acid is a strong base.
And the inverse:
The conjugated acid of a strong base is neutral.
The conjugated acid of a weak base is a weak acid.
The conjugated acid of a very weak base is a strong acid.

What does this mean?
NaOH is a strong base because it dissociates in water as Na(+) (neutral being a conjugated acid of a strong base NaOH) and as OH(-) (basic being the conjugated base of a very weak acid H-OH).

NaNO3 is a neutral salt because:
Na(+) is the same as above and thus neutral.
NO3(-) is the neutral conjugated base of a strong acid (HNO3 --> H(+) + NO3(-))

Na2CO3 is basic salt since:
Na(+) is neutral.
CO3(2-) is the basic conjugated base of a very weak acid (HCO3(-) --> H(+) + CO3(2-))

NH4NO3 is an acidic salt since:
NO3(-) is neutral.
NH4(+) is the weakly acidic conjugated acid of a weak base (NH3 + H(+) --> NH4(+))

Now things get a little more complex when you look at salts of weak bases with weak acids; then you have to compare the two weak acid and waek basic effect quatatively based on pKa and pKb to detrmine wich one is the stronger taking in account the buffer effect.

As a rule you can see this:
Strong base + strong acid --> neutral salt
Strong base + weak acid --> weakly basic salt
Strong base + very weak acid --> very basic salt
weak base + strong acid --> weakly acidic salt
very weak base + strong acid --> very acidic salt
very weak base + very weak acid --> the stronger wins