AP toxicity

[Actu]

Is there any concern with ap toxicity ? Especially can it be like some other explosives absorbed through the skin ?

Thanks

[PYRO500]

I dontthink ap can harm you by touching your skin (unless its unwashed)and i think acetone compounds will fry your brain if ingested

[CragHack]

I have handled AP, and it does not give you any short term complications like headaches (NG) or any type of rash or blister (can't think of an explosive that does that, just using an example). this doesn't mean it doesn't have any long term effects. but if you wash it you shouldn't have problems.

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...Æ

[John456]

If its impure it will bleach your hands and sting a little. other then that its no problem unless you swallow it. Picric acid gave me a rash after handling it crag.

[Anthony]

Picric Acid is toxic, you shouldn't handle it with bare skin!

[TylerDurden]

I would like to know this too. There seem to be no short term effects. But what about long term effects?. It's known that radicals can cause cancer and since AP is a peroxide it will readily form radicals. So could AP cause cancer when absorbed through the skin or when the dust is breathed? But on the other hand: hydrogen peroxide is used for bleaching hair, so not all peroxides are dangerous. But there is a possibility that AP and HMTD are. And I think we should find out. Because what if it proved to cause testicular cancer (or something else)? Then all of you that now are playing around with this stuff will soon have to join Bob and cry your heart out between his tits.
But you can look to it from the bright side: "only when you have lost everything, you are free to do anything".

[Demolition]

Forgive me for asking but what are 'radicals'?
Demolition

[Actu]

Demolition: in molecules each bond is made of 2 electrons that 2 atoms share. When a bond breaks up, one atom can take back the 2 electrons (A-B also written A..B gives A.. and B ie A- and B+) or each atom can take back its own electron so A-B gives A. and B. These two (A. and B.) are called radicals. Because they don't respect the octet rule they're very reactive and can cause a lot of damage in cells.

[TylerDurden]

Precisely! Now, where are those guys with all the chemical knowledge? You should know where to find this information. And I think it's important that we know because what if it will cause cancer or some other fine disease? I, for one wouldn't play around with it no more (or maybe I will because it's too late anyway, depends on the disease).
I don't want to scare you people but it is a possibility and one should know what the dangers and consequences are when one starts to play around with this stuff. But then again playing with explosives is risky anyway, so...what's a little disease when one faces death http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.

"First you have to know, not fear, that you're gonna die"

[Anthony]

I heard that AP is a carcinogen, source wasn't reliable though. Mind you practically everything today is labelled as carcinogenic, it's silly really because they're making people less afraid of bad carcinogens like benzene.

[PYRO500]

at one point the acetone I used had benzene in it

[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 09, 2001).]

[TylerDurden]

You're right in saying that when chemicals are labelled carcinogenic it doesn't tell you if they are really dangerous. That depends on the amount, and the way you're exposed to it (swallowed, ingested, skin contact, breathed) and maybe even how many times your exposed to it (even water is a deadly poison: drink too much of it and your gonna die).
But that AP (an organic peroxide) is labelled as a carcinogen worries me nonetheless. Because it could be really dangerous like benzene! Hopefully someone can tell us.
I always knew there was a chance of being poisonous but if I was about to experiment with this stuff for the first time I would think twice and wait for the definite answer.
And PYRO500: I'm sorry for you man! Benzene in the acetone! You better ask yourself what you wished you'd done before you die.....and go do it.

"Only when you have lost everything, you're free to do anything"

[PYRO500]

I only used a quart of it, and it was only in small amounts, btw many commercial metal cleaners contain benzene, if you were to fill a squirt gun with one and soak someone with it they'd get hives all over

[John456]

Yuck, mine has benzene in it too. Anyone know how much is in it or if it presents a serious risk? I expect to develop some sort of cancer in my lifetime, but better later than sooner http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[PYRO500]

I'm guessing you have the stuff with the purple jar and the plastic/metal screw on lid, that stuf is cheap and I did not have as good results with it, I personally would go with a 1 gallon can of acetone, they are worthwile if your gonna make alot of ap. mine has lasted many months, although after being left in the rain the top has rusted you should frobably put it in a plastic jug (kidding, acetone eats most plastics, but I will probably put it in glass jars

[John456]

It came in a quart red metal solvent can, its ACE brand. Its in a glass jar now since the solvent cans are hard as hell to pour without spilling it all over. On the back it says "Use of this product will expose you to benzene, which has been known to cause cancer in laboratory test animals". Does the kind you buy now contain no benzene? What brand is it?

[PYRO500]

the kind of acetone is klean strip I think. all the chemicals I use are in this picture:

geocities is not letting me link to this pic so cut and paster this into your browser.

"www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/chemicals.JPG"




[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 10, 2001).]

[John456]

I think i saw that brand at the store but it was a lot more expensive than the other stuff.

[TylerDurden]

OK, can we go back to the topic? And that is if AP or HMTD are poisonous/carcinogenic.

[bryan_wilson65]

The first time I made AP I tasted it. I knew that was safe, because it is not soluble in water. It could have contained traces of the H2SO4, but I simply pH tested it during the manufacturing process. After rinse with NaOH it was at pH 12 and after extensive wash with water it got down to pH 7 again.

Now, if AP is a carcinogen I can't tell, but I have an interesting link for you.
http://www.open.k12.or.us/mars/etag/mmpfs121.html
Maybe it's not?

[TylerDurden]

It is safe because it's not soluble in water? Great logic. Can't argue with that. And since your still alive you probably conclude it's not poisonous right?
By the way, how did it taste?
Since it's safe (because it doesn't dissolve in water!) I have an idea: why don't you taste every day a little bit more and tell us what happens. When we stop hearing from you we can figure out the LD and this way you made a positive contribution to this forum after all http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.

[bryan_wilson65]

A solid, which is not soluble in water. And I know the formula. Yep, it can be tasted once if it's pure. But I don't know your lab technique, so I can not recommend you do it.

Now there is only one problem, AP could be carcinogenic, but the article (which you of course neglected) is about the use of acetone
peroxides in food. Read it, and judge for yourself.

Well, you could probably tell me what it tasted? I knew it before I did.

[TylerDurden]

OK, I'm sorry. I neglected it because I thought your where not serious. I just read it and maybe you're right: when they use it to bleach flour it probably is safe.
But it's not certain. And I wonder why they would use especially acetone peroxide for this purpose? It's a sensitive primary explosive one should expect other bleaching agents to be more handy. But thanks anyway for your help.

[TylerDurden]

Delete

[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 13, 2001).]

[bryan_wilson65]

It did not taste anything, because it is not water soluble.

If you sniff it into your nose, you would probably feel a bit more uncomfortable. I did the first part, will you follow? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

[FadeToBlackened]

Some very odd things have been used for bleaching in the food industry, one being nitrogen trichloride (NCl3), which is also sensitive and unstable.

[PYRO500]

the acetone peroxide we know is tri acetone tri peroxide they did use just acetone peroxide in bleaching applications

[TylerDurden]

Yes, and it doesn't mean AP is safe anyway. It just means AP is a bleaching agent and the reaction products of AP with flour are not poisonous (if you trust the authorities for that. I don't).
But it doesn't tell us anything about the toxicity of AP itself (if it will bleach flour, imagine what it can do inside your body!)

[Anthony]

It may not actually bleach the flour, but catalyse the maturation process that turns the flour white.

[TylerDurden]

I did a quick search on the internet to find out something about the toxicity of organic peroxides. But there was very little information on it. Datasheets of wellknown organic peroxides like benzoylperoxide don't mention carcinogenicity. That is to say: they don't know it yet if it is a carcinogen or a mutagen. The information is "not available" or it is "investigated" or "studied". By the way, the lethal dose of these chemicals is not very low, so as long as you don't eat it you don't die immediatly.
Maybe someone else can find the information (information of any organic peroxide is good). If not, than playing with this stuff is even more dangerous than it is already: it may kill you in a slow way without a bang. But maybe not.

[PYRO500]

hydrogen peroxide is actually very toxic to cells, that is why you use it as an anti infectant, one of the things in your cells are called lysosomes, these contain h2o2 and break open when the cell dies dissolving it, one of the causes of aging is from leaky lysosomes

[PHILOU Zrealone]

I have also tasted it and it is slighly sweet like suggar...but tasting something doesn't mean to swallow it http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif !
Peroxydes are indeed toxic by contact with the skin (especially the thin parts!) because of their propention to generate free radicals that are extremely reactive and denaturate living cells (kills them or produces mutations that often induce local carcinomes!).
Now learn that your saliva and your blood contains enzymes especially catalase that degradates fast peroxydes into ethers and water!
And peroxydes are produces while cells are working (in situ) near organites and especially near mytochondrias...wher you can find H2O2 and O2(2-) (superoxyde)! Thus the cells must neutralise it otherwise it would kill it!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[TylerDurden]

That might be true, but it doesn't answer the question: will acetone peroxide kill you the slow way?
So the question still is: is acetone peroxide (or HMTD) a carcinogen/mutagen/poison?
And if this information is impossible to find, information on other organic peroxides might be helpful and give an indication. Someone?

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Toxicity must be high if a big quantity is ingested or upon a prolonged contact with thin parts of the body skin!

Anyway think a bit to what I have said, if it kills cells then a big quantity will kill all the cells it goes in contact before being deactivated by body enzymes (since when killing the cell, it breaks cells membrane and thus release all actives enzymes that will neutralise it).
Thus imagine a little what are the number of cells in the long way from your month to your stomach you need to kill before being killed..not an easy question, I know!
Also consider that CTAP will release aceton...is aceton non toxic agent? ... NO... so it is indeed a poison as toxic or even more than an equal quantity of pure H2O2 or Aceton!
Now do a little search on LD50 of H2O2 and Aceton and imagin what could be the lethal quantity of CTAP!
Now in injection it is lethal in a few seconds since peroxydes set O2 free in the blood due to catalase presence in the media..and injection of gas bubbles in the blood stream produces paralysis/tromboses!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Too tired: mouth instead of month!
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[PYRO500]

tromboses? don't you mean thrombosis as in forming blood clots in a blood vessle or chamber of the heart?

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Yes precisely...in contact with air or oxygen, blood can make clots and stop the flow of the blood stream necrosing a piece of the brain, the heart a blood vessel!
Sometimes even a single bubble (of oxygen) can do the same, thus you don't actually need clot formation!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[TylerDurden]

A very important question. Still no answers. Anyone?

[cutefix]

Explosive toxicity is not a thing to be worried,rather than not being blown by your own creation.If you are afraid of toxicity ,then you are afraid of chemistry,it has become your master then its better for you to have a life far from it.
Chemistry should be our dutiful Servant,not the Master!

[CragHack]

yeah... right... a very well crafted answer that makes no sense. i mean just because something is toxic to handle doesn't mean you should give up explosive chemistry. should everyone give up this field cause TNP will hurt you if you don't where gloves when you handle it... now i am sure you can answer that question yourself.

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[cutefix]

I think it makes sense craghack.Fear is the result of ignorance.If one is deeply interested in chemistry,he will know how to protect himself while doing the experiments.If he has enough learning due to deligence,he can emancipate himself from his fears.

“Knowledge is the light that remove the darkness of ignorance.”

[Mekap]

Brian_Wilson65 says "The first time I made AP I tasted it. I knew it was safe, because it is not soluble in water".
Philou Zrealone says "I have also tasted it and it is slightly sweet like sugar...but tasting something doesnt mean swallow it"

Great fucking idea, can you peckerheads test some of this potassium cyanide I just made?

Philou are you female? Because you should really learn to swallow!

[Philou has been here for a long time and is quite experienced in chemistry. mabe it wasnt a good idea but dont be an ignorant shithead]

[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited June 22, 2001).]

[PHILOU Zrealone]

I know, I know not clever!
To taste things...but I do it in very very little quantity and never swallow it!
I can tell you that the mercury-silver amalgam I have in my teeth should be quite toxic too.I can tell you also that with all the things I have tasted in the past (when I was young and stupid) I should be dead by now (phenol, mercury, nitric acid, chlorhydric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, KNO3, NaClO3, suggar ;-),trichlorethylen, trichlorethan,tetrachorometane,...my conclusion is that toxicity is a mather of dosis and of swallowing!
I think it is a good idea to taste and smell some things even if it is dangerous so if by accident you smell the same somewhere you know what it is!I'm sure you can distinguish from each other chlorine, ammonia, iodine, NO2, HCl, phenol, benzene, toluene, xylene,... and all those are toxic by inhalation !

Why have I tasted CTAP? Simply because I know it can't harm me in the quantity I have taken; also I'm a very good chemist and know what can happen to it when in contact with my saliva...I know peroxydes is part of every single living cell!

No, I'm sorry for you but I'm a guy - a tripod.
BTW I have already asked the question about women in explosive field on alt engr explos one year ago and it seems the field doesn't interess girls that much since no single answer was recieved except from males!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[BrAiNFeVeR]

I haven't tasted any of my AP, but the fluidic remains do smell very nice (sweet, i recognize the smell, but can't identify)29%HCL/6%H2O2/pure acetone, no benzene.

I think I'm getting addicted to the smell ...

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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

[FarbrorBosse]

The most dangerous part about ATCP is the creation. If you do not use a closed bowl
or well ventilated area acetone will dissolve those little brain-cells in your head...
Also if you use H2SO4 as catalyst there might be a chance of getting chronic
inflammation in the larynx (vocal chords) or cancer. There is a reason many workers
at ammo factories died of cancer due to bad ventilation and such combined with bad safety procedures.

The acetone used in ATCP creation is a solvent. It is a damn good solvent.
Acetone has very good fat dissolving properties and will be inhaled, absorbed and
transported around in your bloodstream and some of it will reach your head and little
by little dissolve your brain cells.

Tasting ATCP causes less cancer then the fried potato chips or french friess you order at Mcdonalds.
Acrylamide is created in fried food and might cause cancer and neurological problems(in large dozes).

Many molecules will cause damage to you in one way or another.. just like nitric acid(HNO3).
When dropped on the skin, the acid produces a yellow coloration because of the reaction of
the acid with certain proteins to form yellow xanthoproteic acid.

Visit <a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chindex.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chindex.htm</a> if you want to learn more.

In some rare cases I have put some crystals on my tongue to make sure
no acid vapors are left, like baking a cake if you made it you have
the legal right to lick the bowl. :)

[Mr Cool]

Moving to "Other Explosives"...