Funky Nitrous Oxide Hooka

[Hirudinea]

NBK2000 Wrote in another message

I used to decompose AN in a flask suspended in a clay pot (air bath) on the stove burner (electric) to make Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas), so you can quite easily do so.

But explosive decomposition is possible at a temperature not much higher than it's melting point, so don't get too eager with the heat, eh?


When I read this a couple of things came togther in my mind, firstly I saw them making Nitrous on "Myth Busters" on TV (Confederate Rocket Episode) and filtering it through water, and I also remember seeing the popularity of Hooka bars, you know those big water pipes the Towel Heads smoke, and just recently having had a filling with that lovely, lovely Nitrous I was wondering would it be possible to make a "Laguhing Gas Hooka"? Somthing that could heat the AN to the proper temperature, (but not to high (KABOOM :eek: )) and give a does of Nitrous cooled and filtered through the water of the water pipe, when the user sucks? So it this a good idea or just a lot of effort for to little effect?

[nbk2000]

Thermostatic regulators would allow for precise temperature control, so no BOOM!, which is good.

The most important thing would be the filtering, to ensure that no toxic gases were inhaled, because some toxic byproducts are inevitable.

[Gerbil]

I'd be worried about toxic nitrogen oxides. Having the pipe connected directly to decomposing ammonium nitrate might not be such a good idea.

Personally, I'd set up a controlled decomposition and collect the N2O in a balloon for immediate use.

[Grapes Of Wraith]

I heard that you cant just filter it through water it has to be filtered through a solutions of iron sulfate to remove toxic impurities of NO2 and NO. I don't know if this is true though. Also would these toxic impurity's form if the ammonium nitrate was instantaneously brought to its decomposition temperature ?

[megalomania]

You can use solutions of potassium permanganate to remove the NOx gasses. In fact I have a nice patent here you should check out: United States Patent 4,102,986 Process for the continuous manufacture of nitrous oxide.

This patent describes a way to safely make nitrous oxide by boiling solutions of ammonium nitrate with hydrochloric acid. The water is refluxed, additional AN or AN solution is added along with more acid, any NOx produced is destroyed by the hydrochloric acid, and any escaping chlorine can be scrubbed with sodium hydroxide solution. The explosion hazard is essentially eliminated at the boiling temp of 105 to 130 degrees (rxn actually starts at 80 degrees).

[Hirudinea]

Ok, so it seems that filtration is the key here if I want to avoid a lungfull of nasty gasses, I think I'll go for collection in a baloon or other container, and thanks for the continuious production method, that sounds very interesting.

[nbk2000]

There's no reason you can't have continuous production with concurrent filtering.

Imagine four bubbles (flasks) stacked on top of each other.

The bottom one is your AN decomposition chamber, the next is a chlorine scrubber, the one above it is permanganate for NOx removal, and the last is activated charcoal for traces, with a mechanical HEPA dust filter connecting the tower to the outlet hose, with a small water bubbler in the mouthpiece to humidify the purified gas.

0....AC
0...KMNO4
0....-Cl
0...AN>NOx

[W4RGASM]

Although synthesis is far more preferable, cheap(er then medical) sources of nitrous can be obtained as racing oxidiser supplement, suitably denatured with hydrogen sulphide or sulfur dioxide. both of these can be scrubbed by running the nitrous through columns of strong caustic soda solution; then run it through the charcoal for good measure and toke away (downstream of a regulator, o'course. Not fun to have a PVC cylinder full of lye explode.)

Mind you, due to the insidious olfactory overloading characteristics of H2S; perhaps this combined with the anaesthetic/dissociative effect of nitrous could be used to gas people, they'll go giggling to their grave without ever realising they'd been doped.

[Hirudinea]

cheap(er then medical) sources of nitrous can be obtained as racing oxidiser supplement, suitably denatured with hydrogen sulphide or sulfur dioxide. both of these can be scrubbed...
...due to the insidious olfactory overloading characteristics of H2S; perhaps this combined with the anaesthetic/dissociative effect of nitrous could be used to gas people, they'll go giggling to their grave without ever realising they'd been doped.

Are you saying that laughing gas mixed with a quanitity of sulphur dioxide could be released into an enclosed environment and people would die without noticing? And this stuff can be gotten from race track supplies, and fairly modified by yourself? Sounds like Asahara in Japan went the wrong route trying to kill people with Sarin in the Japanese subways, Laughing Gas would have been much easier, and everybody would have had a much better time.

[anonymous411]

...
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Laughing Gas would have been much easier, and everybody would have had a much better time.

No kidding. When I had three impacted wisdom teeth ripped out of my head on nitrous, I thought it was the funniest thing in the world. I was laughing so hard at the squeaking noise the forcep/pliers were making, I pitched forward in mirth.

I'm against nitrous on the principle of the thing, though...we Westerners are grade-A pussies when it comes to pain. When I had my last tooth extracted, I requested no post-op painkillers at all. An exercise in Stoicism, I guess. After awhile, it was overwhelming and I ended up sleeping a lot for the next few days. I did it, though. The next time you have something physically wrong with you, why not go the "no painkiller" route? It really makes you think differently about pain as just another stimulus once you learn how to deal with it. Once you experience it as survivable, you won't be as afraid of it anymore.

[nbk2000]

Exposure to intense pain is supposed to predispose the nervous system to hyper-sensitivity to pain in the future. Plus, being 'stoic' isn't always desirable.

[Hirudinea]

When I had three impacted wisdom teeth ripped out of my head on nitrous, ... I was laughing so hard at the squeaking noise the forcep/pliers were making,

Nitrous never makes me laugh, just gives me a nice spacey, unstuck in time feeling (man I wish I could get a six pack in the store!)

I'm against nitrous on the principle of the thing, though

Screw that! I get it every time I need dental work, hey its included in the bill, at least for me, so its a free high with a filling. :)

When I had my last tooth extracted, I requested no post-op painkillers at all. An exercise in Stoicism, I guess.

Tooth extraction can be a hard thing to exercise your stoicism on, try a mild sprain first.

The next time you have something physically wrong with you, why not go the "no painkiller" route? It really makes you think differently about pain as just another stimulus once you learn how to deal with it.

I've had pains that require little medication, and some that require lots, I had a lower wisdom tooth out, I needed a couple bottle of tylenol/codine, and still it hurt like hell, I seem to have a high tolerance for opioid pain killers I guess.

I had an upper wisdom tooth out, they gave me a bottle of the same stuff, never touched.

I've been in hospital with pain so severe that morphine did nothing to control it (but demerol did, HELL YEA!), so I'll judge for myself what pain requires what pills. :)

Exposure to intense pain is supposed to predispose the nervous system to hyper-sensitivity to pain in the future.

I thought that was for babies? (Its an argument used against circumcision.)

Plus, being 'stoic' isn't always desirable.

As when someone is chasing you and you snap an ankle its better to run on painkillers than stoicism.

[anonymous411]

Exposure to intense pain is supposed to predispose the nervous system to hyper-sensitivity to pain in the future. Plus, being 'stoic' isn't always desirable.

Really? That's interesting, I never thought about "priming" the neurotransmitters (if that's indeed how it works). I'll have to see what I can find on PubMed about it. Then again, it might make your orgasms stronger, too. :D

Of course you're right, but I see it as a survival preparedness thing. Sheeple roll over and fold in emergencies too often, so anything I can do to steel my nerves and be ready for the worst is a good thing.

[anonymous411]

As when someone is chasing you and you snap an ankle its better to run on painkillers than stoicism.

True, but what if you don't have any? I sure would hate to roll over screaming and die like a whiny little bitch...haha

If the Feds snap your ankle after they extraordinarily-render you off to some Central Asian hellhole, you'll need all the mental fortitude you can get.

[Hirudinea]

True, but what if you don't have any? I sure would hate to roll over screaming and die like a whiny little bitch...haha

If the Feds snap your ankle after they extraordinarily-render you off to some Central Asian hellhole, you'll need all the mental fortitude you can get.

I don't disagree, but I'm saying when you have access to painkillers, don't dismiss them just because you may not have them in the future. Train to fight hand to hand, but never throw away your gun. :)

[anonymous411]

I don't disagree, but I'm saying when you have access to painkillers, don't dismiss them just because you may not have them in the future. Train to fight hand to hand, but never throw away your gun. :)


Yep. Thanks for the indirect reminder that it's time to go to Tijuana and replace my stock of antibiotics and other emergency medicines. If any biochemical/radiological events happen, it's best not to have to line up with the rest of the riff-raff to wait for Uncle Sugar to eke out the substandard treatment that may (or may not) save your life.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt anything to get some painkillers, too...God knows the crooked pharmacists were pushing them. When I bought my legitimate emergency medicines, more than one said "would you like any painkillers with that?" in a way that reminded me of "would you like any fries with that?" Crazy.

[nbk2000]

You know that about 1/3rd of the drugs in mexican pharmacies are counterfeits, right?

[Gammaray1981]

And the other two thirds are out of date.
As painkillers go, Nitrous Oxide isn't a great choice. Sure, it dulls pain, but it also dulls the mind and reaction times - not good at the best of times, fatal in a situation where you need both painkillers and intact faculties.

[Hirudinea]

Yep. Thanks for the indirect reminder that it's time to go to Tijuana and replace my stock of antibiotics and other emergency medicines.

Shame I can't get to Mexico as easily as you, whats your opinion of vet drugs?

You know that about 1/3rd of the drugs in mexican pharmacies are counterfeits, right?

As is about half of what you get off of the internet and soon it will start to crop up in your corner drug store, China pirates everything, and people will sell anything for a buck.

If any biochemical/radiological events happen, it's best not to have to line up ... to wait for ... treatment that may (or may not) save your life.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt anything to get some painkillers, too...

And besides even if you don't like painkillers that dosn't mean OTHER people don't like them. ;)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

whats your opinion of vet drugs?

It really al depends on who the manufacturer is as with all chemicals. From a stand-point of opioids, their use in veterinary medicine is well documented. The medications from Brazil have a higher level of quality control than many others in S. America and generally la pharmicias en Mexico all get their shit from some place in S. America.

But shit that's MADE in MEXICO is just that. The use of veterinary medication in humans is applicable. It (veterinary drugs) is of a quality that does not reach what we would take as FDA level purity but to deal with a broken arm; it would function with no problem.

I live _very_ close to Mexico. I would simply NOT go there on a bet. PM me, I'll tell you funny stories of Mexico and la drugas por le whetas....:eek:

[megalomania]

About the counterfeit Mexi drugs, are they inert, diluted, or problematic, or are they the real thing, just manufactured without the proper patent rights? I know some counterfeits are perfectly fine, just made without the permission of the pharmaceutical company, so they try to label ALL counterfeits as bad and dangerous. I also know some counterfeits are in fact diluted down (expensive cancer meds), and some are no more than saline (recent flu vaccines).

Which case is more prevalent in Mexico?

[nbk2000]

Mis-labeled, diluted, veterinary versions, pirate copies with toxic isomers not removed, and all kinds of other shit.

'Course, I'm sure there's also legit stuff for sale, but sorting it out...

[anonymous411]

Hm, that sucks. In that case, maybe I should try my luck in Canada instead. H: I don't know anything about vet mediicines, but just think it's a good idea to keep up a little stockpile of the basics for emergencies. A copy of the Merck Manual and the Physician's Desk Reference are good investments, too.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You can get a Spanish Lang. PDR; they have 'em down there for all the tourists to pick out of. The issue is apply described above; watered down garbage, etc - But then that's generally always with MEXICAN products. If you happen to look at what you are buying there should be increased chance of proper medication. If you see "Hachen de Mexico" avoid it; simple as that. Mexico is a greasy, disgusting boil on the flesh of the Americas.

The cancer meds are a whole sleezy industry there. I don't even want to start on that as it's a real hot button with me. But if you are looking for antibiotics....look for refrigerated items from Brazil; you'll do fine.

Most of what we consider Schedule II medications are distributed through HOSPITALS - NOT PHARMACIES! Some greedy POS wants to sell you strong pain meds; chances are it's crap. as for things that tourists like (steroids, etc) that's so abundant that IF you know what you're doing - you can get cartons of it for very little $..same goes for mild pain meds like Vicodan.

[hatal]

I heard pills are a lot cheaper in Canada. True?

[chemdude1999]

For the most part, Hatal. IIRC, Canada basically told the pharma industry that they must sell their products at points that enable only small margins. Otherwise, they would not acknowledge their patents. Coercion if you ask me.

At any rate, buses of people (geriatrics) were going up north from the US to get their scripts filled. If you do not have insurance and have a valid script it might be worth looking into. Note, I'm not sure of the current status of this route to drugs.

[Lewis]

This nitrous production idea has really captured my interest, as a way of lightening up chemistry a little. I've done a little searching, and thus far have come up dry on the difference of temperature between when NH4NO3 begins producing N2O at a decent rate, and when it becomes prone to detonation.

What kind of window are we looking at here? 10 degrees C? 50? 100?

Also, would it be wise to invest in some glassware for this operation, or could something easily be jury-rigged?
...
After running across a manual for the safe storage of ammonium nitrate, I found that it begins to decompose at 210C. They go on to state that it will readily explode at 260C. 50 degrees doesn't sound overly difficult.

[jellywerker]

begins to decompose at 210C

It may begin to decompose at that temperature, but at what temperature is it most productive? I'd reckon it is quite a bit closer to 260C than not. Also, is 260C the temperature at which it explodes or at which is violently decomposes? If it is for certain the detonation temperature, the violent decomposition temperature could be lower than 260C.

[Lewis]

I'll admit it's a bit of a gray area as far as what kind of explosion they're talking about.

The document I got the info from is here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg230.pdf

I believe they mention that, under significant pressure (1500 psi), ammonium nitrate will detonate readily at 260C.

A wikipedia article, however, indicates that the reaction producing N2O from NH4NO3 will work "between 170 - 240°C". This seems likely as the oxidizer would start decomposing once it is in a molten state.

[Lewis]

I've decided to create a setup for the production of N2O. I am nearly ready to start, and just waiting for some stuff I ordered online to get here.

I plan on documenting and photographing the whole procedure, but still have one concern: should I be worried about my source of NH4NO3? It comes from instant cold packs, on which the only printed on ingredient is ammonium nitrate. However, the only reason they divulge this information is for poison control purposes. There could well be other additives not listed.

I could see something like a wax coating becoming a big problem once the temperature gets high enough.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has had experience with molten ammonium nitrate.