alchohol or water?

[mark]

Ive decided to make some AP after a 6 month abstinince and Im not shure which to keep my AP in. Will 99% alchohol disolve AP? Which will be safer to store it under? Can I mix in baking soda with the achohol? Thanks

[ALENGOSVIG1]

You didnt say what kind of alcohol. I dont really see why you would want to store it anyways. Just make it as needed. If I was going to store it i would just make sure its wet with water. Whatever you do, dont store it in a solvent that it will dissolve in. If the solvent evapourates you'll get large crystal of ap that are more sensitive than usual. And this has been discussed lots before.

[mark]

Its rubbing alchohol. Im storing it because I dislike constantly messing with acids and peroxides. My charges are small, so a batch goes a long way.

[NoltaiR]

Posted by ALENGOSVIG1-
Deleted

Start a new thread instead of of asking totally irrelevant questions, ALENGOSVIG1.

Posted by NoltaiR-
Alrighty then, please refer to 'purifying H2O2'

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[Rhadon]

If you want to dissolve your acetone peroxide you could use gasoline.
I think that isopropyl alcohol shouldn't dissolve much of the AP (I assume that rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol). But ethyl alcohol will dissolve less. I haven't tried it out and didn't find a source for more information, so I could be wrong. Though, I'm quite sure that AP can be treated like an apolar compound. This could be due to the three CH2(CH3)2 groups, so the polar bonds "inside" don't matter.
If you use a substance that doesn't dissolve your AP you could get the problem that the liquid doesn't moisten it. Thus you don't get any security advantages.

Rhadon

[mark]

Water moistens it and dosnt disolve it. Does anyone know something definitive?

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Acetone peroxide is a covalent compound; it is not polar. It dissolves in toluene.

[Rhadon]

@Mark: You can moisten you AP with water? I have problems doing so, my AP doesn't want to "get wet", almost like sulfur, for example.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

That's strange, my Ap gets wet very good with water (less with methanol), Are u sure you have trimeric AP ?
The dimeric has smaller crystals IIRC ...

[NoltaiR]

It is fairly easy to tell (according to my experiences) whether your AP is dimeric or trimeric; the dimeric does have much smaller crystals which are almost pure white (similar to powdered sugar), while the trimeric is larger crystals that tend to clump together much easier than trimeric and are an off-white/light peach color. It is expected when you make yours that both will be made (and this is even a good thing if done right because the dimeric will help the trimeric detonate more readily although dimeric by itself it much less powerful--in the pure form--than the trimeric).

You can easily tell while the reaction is happening which is forming (especially if your not using a very good salt/ice bath and it warms up easily) because the dimeric will form rather quickly in temperatures above 13-15*C and will make a precipitate that (when stirred) clouds up the water quickly and makes it look like sludge. The trimeric forms a little more slowly, however it sticks to the bottom of your container while synthesizing and when stirred breaks up into clumps that float around.

Also when drying, the dimeric tends to dry faster and makes a powder while the trimeric tends to dry into clumps (although the clumps can easily be turned into powder by pressin it slightly).

My AP always wettens fine (which is good because I don't dare try to travel with it if it is dry).

[mark]

Umm, My AP of the finest quality was whie as the driven snow...It wasnt dcap either. I doubt AP should be pinkish colored.

ANy ideas on alchohol?

[NoltaiR]

Actually I am going to have to correct my original post because parts of it was correct and parts of it wasn't.

Trimeric is heavier and tends to be naturally more dense after drying.
Both tend to form at the bottom (as well as a little at the top) and accumulate up, however the trimeric tends to actually harden onto the glass while the dimeric just floats on it.

What is false however is my stating that the trimeric is peach. Mine was actually a light brown but I found that the reason for this was because the additives in my drain cleaner H2SO4 was a very dark brown, and when I added my H2SO4 to the acetone/H2O2 mix the additives settled on the bottom of the beaker; therefore when the trimeric formed actually on the bottom, the additives got mixed in with it because it was actually on the bottom. Rather than the dimeric which floated directly above it.

Anyways I have made a few 4g caps this evening just to test out performance. But instead of using rifle shells, I just used tops to skinny markers and packed the AP very well (so the force was not as directional as would a metal casing, but I wasn't testing out casing performance anyways). A small amount of steel wool was set on this and then my two leads were inserted on opposite sides of the marker opening and the ignition box was fired. The AP was still very noticeably damp although it still had very nice brissance so when I try the rest tomorrow, there should be even more power.

<small>[ March 15, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[a_bab]

Mark, it has been discussed for thousands times before: AP is very
soluble in acetone... But if you only want to use rubbing alcohol, why don't you just try if it works ?

[kingspaz]

sorry to dampen the topic (parden the pun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) but whats the point in storing it? its not going to last more than a couple of weeks! if your going to make a peroxide to store make HMTD. its reasonably storage stable as in it will last quite a few months.

[mark]

Actualy, Ive stored mine for months underwater with no incident. I just want something that will wetten it, evaporate faster, and wont disolve the ap.

[kingspaz]

months?!....hmmm.....was it just in water or in a container in water?
why not test? put a little AP in the alcohol you intend to use and if it dissolves then don't use it. give it a couple of days nad if its still all there then it'll be fine. alcohol doesn't dissolve it i don't think. if i remember correctly some procedures wash the AP in alcohol at the end.

[mark]

I filled up a filmcanister halfway with ap, then the rest with baking soda solution.

[a_bab]

Since AP is known as an UNSTORABLE chemical, because storage will cause problems with your limbs involved, don't store it!
I use to make in my dreams around ten film canisters crackers filled with AP (very loud toys) for every New Year, but I make my AP with a few days before. And I use ALL my AP. I store only lead azide but in the wet state (well, and a bunch of chems <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

[DBSP]

I've allso had AP for months, AND I haven't noticed any rise in sensitivity. I have tested the sensitivity if you wonder, both just after manufacture and and just before it was detonated 1,5 months later.

[kingspaz]

i think i may have realised why some people say you can;t store it and some say you can. could it be like storing a bottle of acetone? if left in the open unsealed then it will evapourate. if left in the bottle it will not. this may be why people have successfully stored it for months when sealed away in a container.

[Zambosan]

AP will volatilize... so of course it will all evaporate eventually if left unsealed. However, the argument against storage that I've heard is that some of the AP will evaporate (up to the saturation point of the air in the container) and then re-solidify (sublime?) onto the surface of the container. The main problem I can see with this is that larger crystals may form, resulting in increased overall sensitivity from the regular crystalline structure. I've heard ppl claim that the recrystallized material will be dimeric, which is the less stable, acyclic isomer of AP. That doesn't hold much water with me; if your AP is trimeric, I don't think a phase change will cause it to change its molecular structure. Any takers?

[mark]

I dont know how any chemical will evaporate under water. Ive had my ap recrystalize on the top of the film canister becuse theire was a tiny air gap, but this was nt a problem because I turned the container over and it all became wet.

[kingspaz]

surely thats would also be dangerous? if you take the lid off and find it recrytalised on the top, put the lid back on then turn it over to wet it....
surely if there is AP crystalised on the join between the lid and container there will be some friction acting on it. and when you put it back on there is risk of crushing crystals.
you really shouldn't store AP....use HMTD instead.

[mark]

I can only make ap. I only have the chemicals to make that, nothing else.

[Anthony]

I assumed that he'd inverted the container before opening it. With the AP stored in a container of water, even if a small amount does recrystalise on the inside of the lid and does decompose when opened, the bulk of the AP is going to be underwater on the bottom of the container where it won't be detonated. There's still a risk, but not as risky as storing it dry in a sealed container. Persoanlly I store peroxides in a shallow open container and accept the volitisation loss. The beauty of HMTD is that it doesn't seem to volitarise. I've had some sitting for 4 months now and it seems to still all be there, although admitedly the ambient temperature hasn't been very high.

[kingspaz]

mark, your in the UK aren't you? you can get the hexamine in camping shops. used for those little stove thingies.

[mark]

Nope, not even close. California, anti chemical USA.

[nbk2000]

I've never had problems obtaining chemicals, and I've lived in cali my whole life.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that I have several grandfathered accounts with various chemical companies. :D

A good habit for pyros to get in is to read the labels of litterally every product you run across in a store. I've read thousands of labels over the years and can find a product with just about any chemical I need in a grocery, automotive, or paint store. Just start reading labels and it will come to you.

Though it probably does look a little strange to the store clerks to stand in an aisle for half an hour reading product labels, top to bottom, left to right, with notebook in hand.... :p

NEVER had one ask yet though. :)

[VX]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">if your AP is trimeric, I don't think a phase change will cause it to change its molecular structure. Any takers?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Well i don't know either way.... But the idea in itself is not strange, just think about ammonium picrate; dissolving the red form in water and recrystalising it will produce the more stable yellow form. I may be wrong, just thought it was worth a mention.

VX

[Zambosan]

When the ammonium picrate is dissolved, it will dissociate if the bond is ionic (don't know).

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[Iñaki]

AP is an apolar compound (trimeric form I think, because the dimmer one I don´t know). So it can be dissolved in many polar compounds, water, alcohol, acetone... If someone wants to store it, in spite of the dangerous it could be :) , my idea is to mix it with a compound that won´t react with AP, and won´t dissolve it either. A compound that do not dissolves it, is another apolar compound, for example CCl4, so it could be an easy way (but always dangerous) to store AP, if you want to use something, put it out, dry it and set it off. If anyone knows if CCl4 would react with AP, please post here,or any apolar compound in which AP can be mixed without being dissolved.

[a_bab]

I don't think that CCl₄ will react with CTAP. It is known as a pretty stable compound. It reacts with metals, though. I heard that chloroform CHCl₃ reacts explosive with metallic sodium... So who knows.

I used once carbon tetrachloride to make some Armstrong mix, and the mix ignited even in wet state, causing some me some *minor*, very painfull burns. I whouldn't use CCl₄ because is very volatile. Not talking about it's carcinogenic potential...

[Anthony]

I do the same thing everywhere I go (reading labels), you see some odd stuff and often you have no use for it, but one day you might need an exotic chemical. You can then flick through your notes and go get some. Even if the product doesn't contain much of the chemical or it is impure or otherwise unsuitable, at least it's a starting point. Also good if a product you use a lot stops being sold, you just move onto the next best price/purity product on your list. You do get some odd looks especially when you're checking out the solvents, glues etc, especially since I sometimes sniff to try and determine what's inside (doesn't always say)http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon15.gif

If I'm ever with someone while I'm doing this I tell them "the more warning signs the better" seeing as they have no idea what is interesting and what is not:)

[mark]

Nbk, as a fellow califonia boy, will you please enlighten me as to where I can go about finding a few things? Specifically, hexamine, kno3, or amonium nitrate? Thanks

[NoltaiR]

Well because nbk has been known to be more of a 'it is so because someone else tried it out for me' kind of guy--rather than a 'it is so because I tried it out myself' guy--, I doubt he will know much about getting chemicals from specific suppliers unless he just happened to read it somewhere. So just take a look around.. I hear that california is the more anti-chem state so you will have to make everything you do look as innocent as possible. I usually rely on 'it is for my school science fair' to get what I want.

[nbk2000]

Orchard Home Supply (big chain) stocks ammomium nitrate. Ace hardware carries stump remover (KNO3). Really, you need to call agricultural suppliers for nitrates.

Or SEARCH! There's a bazillion posts on this question already.

As for hexamine, same thing. LOOK!

Noltair, your comment about me sounds almost like an insult in a vague way. Please clarify.

[NoltaiR]

Not sure what to clarify but if it helps, I should mention that there was no insult intended.

I mean, I would never insult a 4 star mod :o

edit: somehow I get the feeling that I still sound sarcastic, but I am not.

<small>[ March 22, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Well, I'm surprised I'm not a 1 star rating after after enough k3wls give me a one star vote before they get HED, ! :D

The fact that I've sustained 4 stars (actually, it's 4.33, but who's counting? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) as the most voted on person here says something I think.

Oh, and you seem to have missed the announcement. I'm not an mod anymore, I'm admin. :p

[NoltaiR]

Oh that's right.. I knew that when it happened but it seemed to slip my mind last night.. so the 4.33 star admin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Anthony]

Let's keep it on topic guys:D

[mark]

Thanks nbk! Ill be off to orchard one of these days. As for the kno3, my local ace is not competent enough to order things, so im out of luck.

As for the topic, Anthony, do you know if rubbing alchohol will disolve ap?

[nbk2000]

Any decent hardware store will stock stump remover.

Open it up before you buy it though and check that it's not yellow. I've had a few that were yellow, and didn't work worth shit. It has to be white to be nitrate.

[RTC]

I've heard a few americans and people from Oz, talk about "Stump Remover" but just exactly what is it? Something like a big weedkiller?

How exactly does it remove the stump?

DOH, kinda answered my own question:
<a href="http://www.dragonchemical.com/SL8301.htm" target="_blank">http://www.dragonchemical.com/SL8301.htm</a>

<small>[ March 24, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: RTC ]</small>

[Anthony]

I've never tried, but I'd guess that it would.

I haven't seen stump remover that works bu allowing you to burn th stump in the UK. All I've seen over here contain ammonium sulphamate and I think you're just supposed to apply it and wait for the stump to rot.

[mark]

I found some nbk! Thanks man.

[mark]

Turns out its not kno3. I mixt it 50 50 by volume with powdered sugar and it was innert to a blow torch. Im very sad.

[HOOPS123]

Mark, sounds like you have a premade smoke bomb

[Madog555]

HOOPS, wtf do tou mean

i store my AP under water, sometimes a little bit of crystals form on the sides or lid, this happens if some of the AP is floating on top of the water. i havent noticed any power or sensitivity diference with my fresh AP or AP that has been stored for weeks.

[mark]

Well, incase any of you cared, Ive found pure rubbing alchohol to be an excelent storing liquid. Its lighter than the AP, so no crystals float up to the surface, it turns the AP into super fine crystals, and best of all, It drys qickly.

[HOOPS123]

Oh, sorry. I thought that Mark had said it WAS KN03. Meaning if it were mixed with sugar he would have a smoke bomb... My bad.