Effective and inexpensive smoke device.

[xoo1246]

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<small>[ December 11, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[kingspaz]

sounds a good idea. but what do you do when you want to smoke a hillside <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

edit: incase nobody knows what i mean, i'm talking about the paraffin overflowing out the holes if the device is placed on a hillside. because the liquid will form a level but the casde will be at an angle.

<small>[ July 21, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[xoo1246]

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<small>[ December 11, 2002, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Anthony]

I guess it depends on the height of the holes as to how well it would cope with an incline. Although I'm sure you could find a piece of level ground, or make one with the heel of your foot.

xoo, I take you mean parafin wax, which is a solid material used to make candles? Parafin is a liquid used as a fuel.

I've played with NaClO3/wax mixtures before and they do work well.

[xoo1246]

A few pictures of this device in action. This time it was more of an inexpensive & ineffective device due to me testing increaseing the amount of parafin wax. Used 90 grams instead of 60, and it didn't work well. Here are the pictures anyway:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke02.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/smoke03.jpg</a>

[kingspaz]

that one didn't work well?! looks like it works quite well from the pictures. i'll have to give the original comp a try sometime. whats the approximate burntime on these devices?

[stanfield]

- Do the mix need to be heated on a water bath causing the suger to melt ?

- Isn't there an another chemical than paraffin prills to reduce the burn rate ? I've heard about sand...

thanx !

[Anthony]

Stanfield, the parafin wax helps to generate a lot of smoke when it decomposes. It isn't just a burn rate limiter.

[Rat Bastard]

Thank you xoo1246 !

A long time ago I tried to make a more effective smoke device with paraffin, but it always failed (I had bad instructions from crappy textfiles), and I gave it up, and stuck to normal KN03/sucrose.

P.S: Nice pic's!

[DBSP]

I really wonder why I haven't seen this before, must have been on my holiday. Anyway I just tried it and it really workes great. Even though I had some probs igniting it, that was solved by adding some extra KNO3. I just used a coke can cut off at the top, inserted the fuse in the middel and just folded it once with my hands. So nothing fancy. I had some problems with my camera so the pics aren't great but they deliver the message.

#1 looks odd
#2 taken with a lightpole in the background(notice that the smoke is to thick at some places to let the light through)
#3 the memory card went full as I was to take a pic of the large flame that flashed out when the can melted so I had to erase a pic just to be able to take that pic, which means that it was taken later that it was supposed to be(the flame was twice as large initially)

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke1.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke_2.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke_2.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke3.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/smoke3.JPG</a>

[inferno]

Hmm...Doesn't actually look much different to a normal KNO3+sucrose smoke "grenade"? I've done plenty 60/40 or 50/50 KNO3:sucrose in a sealed cardboard tube with a masking-taped over fuse end, and they create smoke just like the devices in those pics.

[xoo1246]

I belive they are better. I have done the comparasion with my memory, and the containers of my early KNO3/sugar ones might not have been good enough.
I will make another one with the right composition and post some pictures.

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[frogfot]

Tested 240g of that mix in a 33cl cola can today. Both kn and sugar was grinded (separately in coffegrinders). Made parrafin wax shavings with grater, good that mum didnt see that..
Ignited it electrically, but, igniter on bottom showed to be a bad idea.. Can blowed up, and tape that i placed on hole wasnt even moved, thats was pretty entertaining :)
Heres how it looked after:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/deadcan.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/deadcan.jpg</a>
Notice how bottom was pressed out in the other direction.. funny :p

Well, next time i'll use same ammount of mix, with igniter on top. Hmm, but maby blowing up cans with usual kn/su mix can be also fun, gives a bang...

[Energy84]

What kind of electric igniter did you use? You might have had too much bp in there if it blew up. Either way, I just made mine this afternoon and will be trying it out later on today when the wind dies down a little bit. Hope it doesn't just blow up on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Eliteforum]

From the scorch marks on the can, it does look as though not all the powder burnt when it "exploded".

[frogfot]

My igniter is 3cm piece of coctailstraw, 0,5cm in diameter, filled with bp. My bp got really bad quality, used CIA method, but i made it whithout weighting the components, used bare eye.. or how do they say..

[xoo1246]

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<small>[ December 11, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[stanfield]

sorry but I'm european and I think I've absolutely not understood the construction of the recipient ! :)

could you do a beautiful BMP or JPEG file about this ? because a good picture is better than a long speech !

see ya and thanx !

EDIT : I think I will use a coca can... (this may be usefull for you ?)

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[Energy84]

Don't worry 'bout it Stanfield. I agree that the instructions aren't super clear, but I built one anyways. Just use a little common sense and remember that the top needs to be sealed and the device must hold up under pressure. The only place for the pressure to release is in the bottom through the holes. Mabye later I will build another one and take a picture of it.
BTW, xoo, thank you very much for sharing this with us. I am very happy with the end results :D

[DBSP]

I'll explain it to you.

1) mix the smoke mix in a seperate container.
2) take a tincan not a cocecan they are too thin and will melt quite quick. You shuld have one end open if it has been used. install the fuse/ignition device near the bottom or in the middel. Fill in as much of the smoke composition as you like.
3) And then crimp the open end with a plier or simply bash it together with a hammer so that no gases can escape that way, then poke a few holes in the bottom of the tincan and tape the holes over.

When it is ignited the composition starts to combust and the pressure builds up inside the can. The tape is pushed away and the smoke pours out of the holes. If a larger hole would appear in the can the pressure would get to low and the mixture would start burning instad of producing as much smoke as if the pressure had been higher.

Hope things clear a bit.

[stanfield]

ok, like this :
<a href="http://stanfield.150m.com/smoke.jpg" target="_blank">http://stanfield.150m.com/smoke.jpg</a> (copy and paste in a new window...fucking 150m.com)

But this could very dangerous ?! the can may explose if the mix is really pressed, no ? Could PVC be used ? What happend if the holes are too small ?

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[DBSP]

I don't think that it is that dangerous, the parafin really slowes the burning down. And if you would make 5 holes I don't think there would be any problems. PVC can't be used since it will melt really fast. You can't even use a coce can, I tried that, it melts quite quick and starts burning instead.

The pic is right.

[stanfield]

ok ! that's not so difficult...
But I reall ask myself about which type of recipient will I use !

thanx anywhere !

[Arkangel]

I was going to suggest home canning suppliers, but all they seem to have are glass jars with screw on lids. :( All the professional smoke grenades I've seen are made into a can almost like a baked bean tin, if only you could get a home machine for putting the lids on.

Otherwise, I'd be making them from all my old food cans, with vent holes drilled in the bottom (covered in glued on Al foil perhaps), and then filled from the bottom with a wood plug glued in after ramming the comp. Ideally, through the middle of it would be the ignitor mechanism with a pull fuse or whatever)

[xoo1246]

Try melting the parafin before you mix it all together, it might work better(burn faster and more reliably). Why no try it, parafin melts at around 50-60 degrees C.

[stanfield]

Yes, I was thinking about that ! I think it could be better too !
I will try in a water bath when I will find the recipient ! hehe, this is going to be the harder task !

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[frogfot]

Today i tested one device with shavings and other with melted paraffin, both with 120g. I also used water bath. Kn/s mix absorbs paraffin nicely and the whole thing stays soft quite long time to put in the can.
Had some problems with ignition but it went nice with some dry mix on top.
Melted device smoked much slower, i think it gave less smoke than the other with shavings.. even if compared in time.
And in the end some dude came to me and said that it was wrong place to burn things.. heh.. but he was kind.. :)

[mr.evil]

what about Stearin? I've buyed 1kg of this last week, so maybe it's good instead of paraffin?

anyway, Good pictures!

[Eliteforum]

Arkangel, try getting ahold of some of that stickly metal tape, it's like thin metal used to stopping leaks in plumbimg pipes, so check your local plumbing supply shop. Might be a better alternative to al foil.

[stanfield]

I thought the same thing today but these "glue" are pretty expensive here... I really don't see what type of recipient could be use for everyday smoke bomb !

If paraffin help generating lot of fumes, Many other mix could be substitued to KNO3 + Sugar ? no ? what about black powder or NaNO3 + Carbon or something like that ?

And what about adding some sulfur ? I think it could generate really TOXIC gaz ! this have to be tested... but which ratio ?

see ya!

[VX]

This is excellent, I have a particular fascination with smoke grenades.

OK, I have an idea also. If using melted paraffin wax works, (I assume that this would coat all of the particles of KNO3 and sugar and so slow down the burn rate, but even it out) then will using actual paraffin (fuel) work. I thought that it may not at first because it would choke everything, but if a little less by mass is used then it could work, couldn't it?

What do people think? If we think it will work I will happily buy some paraffin and try it out.

[Anthony]

I'm not sure if liquid parafin would work as well, one thing that might happen, is if the parafin is vaporised and expelled with the smoke, it could form an FAE cloud... Could potentially happen with the wax too, but it isn't nearly so flamable.

[stanfield]

maybe you're right, the paraffin must be in its prills form...
but the main problem now is to find a reliable container ! :)

[stanfield]

Maybe a big lead pipe as I used for making pipe b0mb will certainly work ! but this is very expensive !!!

[Anthony]

A lead pipe would almost certainly melt.

Steel is cheap, easily available, and heat proof for this purpose, so why not just it that?

[xoo1246]

An empty spray can can be used if you find a good way of resealing it and drilling out the valve or resealing it with something else..

[stanfield]

But I don't understand something :
before, I made smoke bomb only with KNO3 + sugar (50/50) and I used coca can ! When burning, the can goes red but never melt ! why, this time, couldn't I use this one again ?

just a word : I used 50g of smoke composition, this may be the reason why my can didn't melt...

Anthony, where do you want I find a steel can ? this isn't very common, no ?

[zaibatsu]

I don't think it matters much, you can try a coke can you know, as longas its nowhere that you're going to ignite, just try it.

And I think Anthony meant steel piping.

[Anthony]

Coke and other drinks come in either Al or steel cans. Off the top of my head I know that Tango comes in a steel can. Maybe the one you used was a steel one and that is why it didn't melt?

[VX]

For slightly larger charges, and if people are having trouble finding steel drinks cans, why not use food tins. You know the ones beans and soup come in....

[NoltaiR]

yeah the drink can that you used must have been steel, the few times that I have used aluminum cans all had the same result, as soon as any pressure was built up within the can (which happens within seconds) the can melts like cheese.. (for lack of a better comparison).

anyways someone mentioned that sand might slow the burn rate down, but I can tell you from personal experience that it does absolutely no good. it only slows it by seconds and the amount of smoke produced is drastically lowered. the reason that I was using such as mixture was when trying to make a model volcanoe, and my 'lava' was kno3 and sugar along with sand in some trial runs. the only thing it proved useful for was to darken the smoke color (because volcanoes just don't usually have snow-white smoke) and to leave a red-hot bubbling residue at the bottom and along the walls of the volcanoe similar to real lava which is molten rock.

one thing that might be interesting would be to try to mix in some chips from rubber tires in with your kno3/sugar/parafin mixes.. I should think that in an enclosed building, black smoke would prove more concealing than white smoke would of the same cloudiness.. anyways its just an idea.

[NoltaiR]

oh and one more thing;
what I personlly used to do for my smoke compositions was to take oil filters (made for cars) and use a knife to cut out the filter-paper on the inside leaving an empty steel canister with one large opening in the center (used for oil intake) along with about 6-8 small holes surrounding it (used for oil output). I would fill it with kno3/sugar along with some charcoal and/or aluminum poured in at different times while filling. I would ignite it as-is and it worked great (though my focus was more of a flashy fireworks device--as per the aluminum and charcoal). I should think that more smoke as well as a longer burn time could be achieved by somehow sealing the large intake hole so that only the small holes could release smoke and pressure.

[stanfield]

hehe, that may be a good idea :
Imagine a rubber (binder) made of car tyres polymer, no more recipient is needed and lot of nasty smokes !

[Energy84]

Excellent idea Noltair! The filters that you're talking about are threaded so I'm sure you could find a threaded end cap that you could just screw on the end. As for the inside of it, you could just pull everything out so that you're left with a nice (hollow) steel canister. Also, these filters are available in MANY sizes. From small (3-4") motorcycle oil filters to large (12-14") diesel tractor filters. :D

Edit - Instead of trying to chop up tires into little bits for added smoke, why not just moisten the mixture with motor oil? I know it will still produce white smoke, but it could still work. Hmmm, the parafin could even completely replace the motor oil I think. Time to stock up on KNO3 and get testin' :)

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

I tried using motor oil a while back with a kno3/sugar mix thinking that it would at least alter the color of the smoke a little. Well the first thing I noticed (and maybe I just used too much oil) was that it was a bitch to get to ignite. It took a nice pile of dry mix on the side to ignite the pile of the oil mix. But instead of turning out to a smoke mix, it just burned with a steady flame for a good while (about 15 minutes for a pound) and produced very little smoke.

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Originaly I had it in a pipe but I just couldn't get it to ignite for anything; so I poured it all out and then lit it with a batch of dry mix.

Also I had to make a simple web page for my physics class today about myself (I was in a class full of people who didn't even know what HTML is much less be able to use it). We have until Thursday of next week to complete it but I have been making web pages for years now so it took me about 4 hours to have one up and running from start to finish. It is a rather simple minded site but I didn't want to have anything posted that my teacher might report me for. Anyways the point of this is that at the bottom of the page is pics of my model volcanoe tests that I did last July.. just something that had no real use to it but I did it incase someone ever questioned what I was doing with the chemicals and I needed a legal excuse to give.

Anways they are at the very bottom..

EDIT (Zaibatsu): I don't think its a good idea to show a picture of yourself online, let alone give your name. I've edited this for your own safety. Feel free to upload the info to a different, non-personal site and edit this comment out of your post.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

[stanfield]

muhahahahahaha !
I just tested out my "prototype" = it explode !
I took a beer can, put an igniter at the bottom, filled with the mixture and drilled holes at the top and it explode when I fired, why ?

[frogfot]

Don't put igniter on bottom.. When it ignited it pushed whole propellant up and tapped the holes. It happaned to me first time too :)

Btw, anyone know if high pressure increase efficiency (ammounts of smoke), or is it there just to prevent smoke from bursting into flames?
I mean, for 200g propellant i use 1,5cm hole in diameter, works great, but should i decrease hole diameter? I know that burn speed will increase then... but what about overall efficiency..

[firebreether]

Noltair - nice volcano, pity you dont see more volcanos with a smoke cloud shooting straight up in a column :D .

I don't think increasing the pressure would change the amount of smoke as it doesn't really change the burn much, just speeds it up. Increasing pressure may increase the burn temp very very slightly, but that wouldn't do much to the solid particles coming from the burn.

[stanfield]

- Where should I put the igniter ?
- What is the size of the hole for a beer can ? I uses 90+90+60
- How many holes ?

thanx !

[VX]

I tried this for the first time today, the results were very good although the burn time was anly about 25 seconds, not much longer than a normal KNO3 and sugar mix, although the smoke output was slightly more. I didn't use parrafin wax prills, but instead I had to cut up a few candles into small shavings... Is it possible that my shavings were too small and so melted and burned too fast?? I used the same amount of substances as Xoo stated in the first post.

PS Noltair is that you on the picture on the top left of your site?

[NoltaiR]

Ummm.. maybe that is my pic.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Well in any case zaibatsu was right, its wasn't very clever of me to reveal so much of myself in a forum such as this one so a thank you to him.

Anyways for those of you who did see the site, you get the idea of what the effect of a dirt mixture does in a smoke comp.

[frogfot]

stanfield-
I lay down igniter on top of mix.
Isn't there a hole already on a beercan? It should be enough for that task, only one hole. My device got one hole on top, as i said before, 1,5cm in diameter.

Mmm, I got bored and drawed my device, wee:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/smkparaffin.gif" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/smkparaffin.gif</a>
Measures: heigth 11cm; diameter 7,5cm; 200g propellant
It's also really simple to clean inside after operation.

[stanfield]

yeah but many little hole may be better, no ?

[firebreether]

Yeah, while most of my smoke "bombs" are just AN / newspaper (simple as heck to get the materials) I think chlorate mixes are the most powerful I've used.

Anyways, another possible variation on this is to put the paraffin wax ont he outside of the burning mix, not mixed into it, that way you dont need to worry about the paraffin wax fumes burning instead of just recondensing into smoke - kind of like when you snuff out a candle, the wax keeps evaporating for a short while to produce smoke, but while the candle is burning very little smoke is formed. You could try putting a container with smoke mix inside one with wax, or drill out a hole in a candle shape and insert the smoke mix. With this you might also want to put inside antoher container, as you will probably have some wax left at the end.

[Anthony]

I'd melt the wax into the oxidiser/sugar to enusure an intimate mixture and also avoid having to shave up candles.

Chlorate/wax melted together with the wax in excess burns with a lot of smoke.

Having the wax seperate could produce some interesting results though.

[frogfot]

Bringing up this topic again...
After two smokes that had totally 90g KNO3 i got alot of coal as byproduct that most likely contained K2CO3 and KOH. So, i recycled KNO3 from it ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ), by dissolving this black mix in 0,5l water, filtering coal and adding concentrated solution of Ca(NO3)2 until no CaCO3 formed. Then solution was filtered and evaporated. That gave about 58g probably clean KNO3.
However, i lost some of that black byproduct (cause i didnt knew what to do with it at first) and gonna make same experiment again. There maby could be 100% yeld due to high boiling point of potassium carbonate and hydroxide, so it never leaves smokedevice.

Hmm, now the reason im trying to recycle KNO3 is because its expensive here, 10$/kg. When Ca(NO3)2 cost 0,65$/kg. That could be really promising.. :rolleyes:

[Mic]

well your KNO3 is not that expensive.. here it's 5$ for 100g :mad: ! but i will buy NH4NO3 to convert it to KNO3. much cheaper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyway i try that smoke device and it worked very well! :rolleyes:
i put 50g KNO3 and 50g Sugar + 20g Parafin. for the fuse i use a straw and i fill it up with KNO3/Sugar. for the contenant i use a glass bottle ! I made a hole on the top and i pass the straw in the mix. i made a hole on the side of the bottle too and i ignite it. very interesting. but i did not have enough holes and the pression became too high and the botle exploded.

tomorow i will try another but this time i will make 4 holes on the side of the bottle.

[Rat Bastard]

Same problem here, KNO3 is expensive as hell (I live in BC), however I have a lot of NH4NO3. What was your method of converting NH4NO3 to KNO3?

<small>[ September 09, 2002, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]</small>

[kingspaz]

i have used this method successfully although its quite hard to get a very pure product.
basically it goes like this:
KCl + NH4NO3 ---&gt; KNO3 + NH4Cl
make equimolar boiling, saturated solution of KCl and HN4NO3. allow to cool. the ammonium chloride is the most soluble ionic combination so remains in solution. the KNO3 is the least soluble ionic combination so precipitates. remove it with a filter and wash it with ice water to remove chloride contaminents.

[Mic]

I never made KNO3 from NH4NO3. but I will give it a try soon!

I was thinking about mixing NH4NO3 with KOH. Do you think it will work ? I think that : NH4NO3 + KOH = KNO3 + NH4OH. Idont know if KNO3 is soluble in NH4OH but I think it can be easyly separate. im not sure though.

[simply RED]

Straw with KNO3 sugar is a fuse?
And please, tell me how to drill glass?

<small>[ September 09, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: simply RED ]</small>

[Mic]

well maybe its not a fuse but it works quite well for ignite this kind of device.
My father have a special thing to drill holes in glass. I dont know the name in english.

[Anthony]

Name in English is "glass drill" :)

IIRC fuses like a straw packed with LE are known as "spoolettes", not sure about the speeling. Often used for the time delay in aerial shells.

[inferno]

Off topic for a sec - I make fuses with KNO3/sugar in normal drinking straws. They have a constant burn rate, are flexible, and work fine. I wrap them in PVC tape for aesthetics and to keep the composition from falling out the end. I also make some by rolling a "snake" of mix in some paper and putting tape over that, however the straw method is easier and quicker.

I have 55lb of KNO3, I will try this device in the coming days, I have to be up early tomorrow so I may not have time tonight. Will post my results soon.

[Mic]

ok, I made 3 others smoke device:
1- in a glass bottle (100g/100g/20g - KNO3/Sucrose/Parafin)= complete failure. the pression grow to fast and the bottle broke and the very beggining of the ignition.

2- In a food can (50g/50g/30g - KNO3/Sucrose/Parafin)= work very well ! the can didnt melt and huge amount of smoke were produced!

3-In Another food can (50g/50g/15g - KNO3/Sucrose/Parafin)= work very well but the can did melt a little bit but not much and huge amount of smoke were poduced but less than the last time.

[zeocrash]

Can Nh4NO3 or NH4ClO3 be substituted for the KClO3

[vulture]

First of all, why would you use NH4ClO3 if KClO3 is possible??? NH4ClO3 is sponteanously explosive and should not be used.
NH4NO3 can be used as a KNO3 substitue, however it will burn less vigorously and is very hygroscopic.

Btw, this is pretty basic stuff which can easily be found by searching or reading some chem books.

[Devils Sign]

Could someone please tell me where to buy Parrafin prills and what they are.

---------------------------------
you could simply have searched on google :mad:
prills = small balls usually 1-3mm in diameter. parrafin = a very long chain hydrocarbon. in this case wax.

<small>[ October 08, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[Anthony]

You can buy bags of prills from hobby shops that deal with candle making.

Cheaper and easier to just buy some cheap candles.

[zeocrash]

i was wondering if anyone knew a source of KNO₃
i'm having trouble tracking any down

Did you search theforum? Did you realise that people before you have already asked, and had answered, this question? Did you realise that not even displaying a general location makes it very hard for people to recommend sources?

<small>[ October 09, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[Devils Sign]

I've tested the device and it worked successfully... Soon I will try to post some pictures. Srry for asking such an stupid question.

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Devils Sign ]</small>

[Agent Blak]

Greetings all I am Back after an absense.

So Do you or do you not melt the wax before you add the KNO3/Sucrose?

[TheBicher]

I think another issue to look back to is coloring the smoke. If the smoke is colored it makes a much better screne. I think someone on the other topic about smoke bombs mentioned adding charcoal to the mixture. If I have a chance I'll experiment with this, maybey even some coloring chemicals, but i would have to look into those first(though i realize this topic is for effective and inexpensive chemicals, giving the smoke a color has its advantages.)

Also, I have an electric can opener that opens the cans a little differently. Instead of just cuting the can, it seperates the top from the can (I believe they call it uncrimping). This makes it a lot easier to glue on or secure, making for a great casing.

[X-Wulf]

I'm sure many people on the forum have heard of PFP - the pyrotechnic formuale page. Anyway, they have an entire section devoted to smoke. Unfortunately their site is down at the moment (http://come.to/pfp), but the section on coloured smokes names such chemicals as: Realgar, Quinoline Yellow, Rhodamine B, Para Red, Methylene Blue, Phthalo Blue, Indigo Pure, and Auramine.

Now I don't know about others on the forum, but I've never even heard of these chemicals (save Methylene Blue), let alone know where or how to get them short of a chemical supply house. Any ideas?

[Macgyver]

Speaking about smoke compositions, here are a few more for you.
Maybe not all of the chemicals are available OTC everywhere, but at least where I live it's possible to order them without too much of a hassle :)

Zn 50%
HCE 50% (HexaChloroEthane) Note: Do not store, may ignite if moisture is present!!!

ZnO 47%
HCE 47%
Al 6% (25 um flake) Note: Hard to ignite, use Zn/HCE 50/50 for first fire mix.

Zn 25%
ZnO 25%
HCE 50% Note: This one is safe to store, and ingnites from a fuse or match.

[irish]

hi X-Wulf
realgar is arsenic sulphide, you can find it in old silver/lead mines below the oxidization zone and in the heaps from them,
it comes as red greasy looking crystals or lumps. the others are mostly dyes I think.

[gamin guru08]

A friend and I tried making smoke devices the other day. We used kno3/sucrose and added wax to it because I had heard it would slow the burning way down. I wouldnt say it was a failure because we got a good laugh out of it. We melted the mix into a film canister and when we lit it we got a nice distance away to watch. It started to burn decently and then all of a sudded it popped and the mix popped up into the air and made a rather large ball of fire. I dont know what caused it and I didnt really inspect it because I was too busy rolling on the ground laughing. We may have to try it again some time because I would like a nice cheap device that puts out a ton of smoke.

[A-BOMB]

Well here is a MS paint drawing of the smoke grenades that I make.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/smoke%20grenade.jpg" target="_blank">ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/smoke%20grenade.jpg</a>

I'll post some pictures of one once I've coated them with oil and reasembled them.

[gamin guru08]

A-BOMB: What do you use for your composition? Have ignited any? How fast do they burn and how much smoke do they put out?

[Observer]

Gamin guru08 think! What do you think happened, why is it we add parafine to the mixture, not to slow it down but to have the heat from the sucrose/KNO3 reaction evaporate the parafine and form gas, gas wich condenses when it commes in contact with the cold air. If you have any ignition sources around this gas/stream of solid particles will ignite. If you use a plastic container(will melt, duh) with not enough holes for the gas to be relased the result is fairly obvious.

<small>[ February 21, 2003, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Observer ]</small>

[Guerilla]

Talking about the dyes for colored smokes...

Damn hard to find the needed dyes, once I started looking them and all I could find was phthalo blue (from a paint store). Of course there are probably many organic dyes that will work, but proper ones are under a rock. Not to mention how much they cost, that small 1.5dl jar of phathalo blue costed about 5€/$..

If you want to experiment with different colored smokes, this might help:

30 parts of KClO3
52 parts of the dye
20 parts of lactose (can be replaced ie. with sucrose)
3 parts of sodium bicarbonate
2 parts of dextrin

Of course, the amount of different dyes used varies, but that should be a good starting point. Cut stars are made and packed into a cardboard tube with a nozzle. Burning them open will just destroy most of the dye..

[Alexires]

Posting to put the images of the experiment detailed in the "How to clear a building quickly and quietly"

Smoke 1.jpg gives you an idea of the device. Yes, it isn't fancy, but it was my last for the day and I'll be fucked if I'm spending 2 hours making a god damn case.

Smoke 2.jpg shows it burning. The red glow is the expanded Sodium bicarbonate that had SIGNIFICANTLY slowed down the burning. Soon after this the electrical tape caught fire. Some work needs to be done to ensure that it simply smolders.
In the background you can see the smoke starting to cloud the room.

Smoke 3.jpg is an image taken a few seconds before I had to leave the room because of the fumes. This was 5 minutes in and you can see that the majority of the container still hadn't burnt yet. It was still producing smoke at this rate for another 10 minutes after this.

Smoke 4.jpg is a picture taken about 7-8 minutes in. The drawing in the background is about the height of a 10 year old. After 15 mins the whole room looked like the top of this picture.


Conclusion: The addition of the bicarb was essential to stop the whole thing from turning in a flaming pillar of fire hazard. The electrical tape caught fire about 2 minutes in, but that could probably have been prevented by wrapping the cardboard in aluminium foil, then wrapping the tape around it.

The amount of bicarb was excessive, and produced an extremely long burning smoke device (15 mins) but with the addition of the tape fumes, I could only stay in the room for 5 minutes before it became most unplesant.

Soon I shall make a 1kg device and test it in the "shed". The shed is big, about 425m2. I'll be aiming for a 5 minute burn time and to not have a big fucking mess to clean up. I'll post the results later.

[cracker]

I just came in from trying these separate Smoke producing combinations. Potassium Nitrate 60,Granulated Sugar 40, mixed well with ...10-50 Motor Oil,Vaseline,Glycerin,Brake Fluid,Mineral Oil, and Paraffin Oil.

Each of these combinations performed very differently with one standing far above the rest.

I used a 1" ID metal water pipe that was 3" long with screw on metal end caps. The fuse end had two 1/4" holes drilled in for smoke and gas venting.

I could go into detail about the differences between these comps but after just testing all of them 3 separate times each and then the winner 8 times there is a very clear choice.

By mixing Mineral Oil with the Potassium Nitrate and Granulated Sugar 60/40 mix to the point it was a pourable shake like texture. I was able to reproduce a extremely effective smoke mixture that was far superior to the standard Candle Wax Nitrate composition. Not only did it mix much more evenly it was pourable and produced a definite smoother all White smoke.:cool:

What I really found interesting is that it was hard, no.. it was very hard to add to much mineral oil to the mix. It seemed no matter how much I added It just seemed to produce more smoke and still burned very, very well. However I found, a thick but definitely pourable "shake" like mixture worked best.

This was not the case with the motor Oil which was hard to light with just a little to much oil and did not burn nearly as smooth.

On each one of these tests I used a little of the 60/40 mix dry as the first fire prime.

I will Be using this Mix from now on, (when using PN) and I highly suggest others try it.

There is no doubt that a "stronger" mix is possible using a thick motor oil or liquid "roof" rubber although a different oxidizer would have to be used. One of the Chlorate's perhaps.

[cracker]

Yup, Iv been getting good results and incredible burn times with this mix.

Potassium Nitrate 60
Sugar 40
Ammonium Chloride +15
Mineral Oil (add enough to form a paste)

Prime with the 60/40mix dry

My weigh scale is "down" right now, so the proper amount of Ammonium Chloride may very(slightly)

[cracker]

I just came in from trying these separate Smoke producing combinations. Potassium Nitrate 60,Granulated Sugar 40, mixed well with ...10-50 Motor Oil,Vaseline,Glycerin,Brake Fluid,Mineral Oil, and Paraffin Oil.

By mixing Mineral Oil with the Potassium Nitrate and Granulated Sugar 60/40 mix to the point it was a pourable shake like texture. I was able to reproduce a extremely effective smoke mixture that was far superior to the standard Candle Wax Nitrate composition.

Adding a Polymerized thickener to almost any of these mixes will help ensure a permanent and even mixture without separation of the Oxidizer-Fuel and Oil, sustaining a better more stable burn with longer burn times.

If a quality mixing process was assured one could permanently suspend the Fuel-Oxidizer Mixture into the Smoke Oil-Polymer Mix. Achieving a highly effective Smoke producing gel. Similar but advanced to compositions like the Potassium Nitrate-Wax mix. Added benefits include a storage temperature far higher than Candle Wax (which melts, subdividing the wax from the oxidizer particles). Also the ability to use other Fog Oil Substances such as Mineral Oil or "Gulf Oil".

Polymers include Kraton and Carbopol products many others (possibly better) exist.

An effective mix consists of (parts by weight percentage)

Potassium Chlorate 34
Thiourea 9
Fog Oil & Polymer Mix 57

What ever Oxidizer-Fuel mixture is used it must burn at such a temperature as to not cause enough heat to ignite & flame the Fog Oil but yet produce sufficient heat to vaporize the Fog Oil.

Thiourea is available on Ebay and Kraton Polymer or others can be purchased or "Sampled".

[nbk2000]

Fog Oil & Polymer Mix 57

What's the ratio, or percantage range, of oil to polymer?

[cracker]

A more complete mix consists of (parts by weight percentage)

Potassium Chlorate 31.4
Thiourea 9.8
Sodium Bicarbonate 9.8
Paraffin based Fog Oil 42.5
Polyethylene (Polymer) 6.5

Different Polymers or Oils will vary the percentages of Polymer to Oil

[hokk]

Hi!
Very interesting results, I've been reading the whole thread and were thinking if someone were going to mention the ammoniumchloride, which were done at last.

I'm particulary interested in the kno3/sucrose/ANCl +mineraloil mix, because all ingredients are so cheap and easy to get.

What are the approximately burntime for a 100g mix? could the mix get more optimized by adding some sodium bicarbonate?

[cracker]

I agree these mixes are exciting for their costs and performance.

I would start by just mixing in the fuel-oxidizer with the mineral oil to get a feel for how it burns and then experiment by mixing in your other ingredients from there.

Sodium Bicarbonate will certainly help some of these mixes but in this one particular the Ammonium Chloride and Mineral oil moderate the burn well.

Adding Ammonium Chloride to the Ammonium Nitrate-Newspaper Smoke Bomb Water Solution also works very well, although you have to keep the Oxidizer concentration in the Water very high.

It also helps to soak and dry the Newspaper sheets individually in order to throughly ensure oxidizer crystals on both sides of all sheets.

The smell that this product puts off is just about equal to huffing right from the Crystal Clear Ammonia Bottle.