Muslims arrested in plot to raid Fort Dix, New Jersey

[Bugger]

I heard in the news this morning about the arrests of about 6 Muslims, in New Jersey and New York, for allegedly conspiring to go on an armed shooting raid on the U.S. Army base of Fort Dix, New Jersey. Ostensibly, the FBI and NSA/CIA found out about them from intercepted telephone and/or email communications, the use of certain "key" words in which would have alerted the NSA to the plot. They practised shooting and martial arts at makeshift ranges in remote parkland areas, but were videoed doing so. They had acquired an arsenal of automatic rifles and pistols, and were allegedly caught in a "sting" organized by the ATF and FBI when they tried by buy a heavy-caliber machine gun, along with grenades and bazookas. The arrested Muslims were all born overseas, in former Yugoslavia, Turkey, Palestine, etc., but were legal U.S. residents, according to the news report.
Does anyone have any further info or comment on this incident?

[sirthomasthegreat]

Funny, I thought Fox said they were illegally here. In fact I am 95% positive.

[Bugger]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plot;_ylt=AvDKLLtLXdBzLczADUE0guBH2ocA .Three of them were in the U.S.A. illegally, one was a U.S. citizen, and two were llegal residents with "green cards".

[festergrump]

...yeah, and their plans were for the six of them to attack and kill as many US troops as they could with "assault rifles" on a fortified military base right here on US soil with SO many other soft targets available within even walking distance. I smell the spin of rank media pussy agenda. *sniff sniff* Yup, that shit's rank.

Be wary of where you get your news from. Sometimes it's better to feel the blunt truth from the enemy than hear the soft lies from your so called "allies"...

[megalomania]

Wow, that would be a ballsy move, attacking a military base. At least it would be tough to spin as a cowardly act of senseless violence as if they attacked a school, hospital, church, or something. A base full of soldiers would be a valid military target for an enemy we are at war with, even if we don't grant them the "legal" status of an army.

[Fourfifth]

This always gets to me, but at least they are attacking the military and not citizens.

My sister was at 1 of the underground stations in London when the London bombers attacked. And my best friend had just finished fitting the cameras that caught the terrorists on disk, just 15mins before they struck.

Then afterwards, he had to assist in handing over 350+ HDD's from 7 different station.

[Charlie Workman]

It's not all that ballsy of a move. It just gives the appearance of one. Ask anyone who's been in the military how many people on your average base are actually in possession of loaded weapons. Other than the gate guards and a few others, not many. The only times I ever had a weapon and ammo (outside of the range) was when we were guarding our ADM stuff. Even then the mags were in a sealed ammo can. Easy to open, but still outside the weapon. People guarding ammo bunkers generally had one magazine, but it was kept in the ammo pouch until needed. Our bunkers were in a heavily wooded area, with an abundance of wild boars. If we heard anything funny, the mag went in. Special cases, though. Generally, we had billys or ball bats.

[nbk2000]

The vast majority of bases in CONUS are unprepared for an assault by jihadhis, as our enemies have always been overseas and unable to reach us.

A jihadhi unit armed with even a light mortar could make a mess of an airforce base, since fighters/bombers are parked in the open in neat rows, or in lightly constructed hangers, and not in heavy bunkers like our forces in germany or s. korea are.

Now, since these guys aren't wearing the uniform of Iraqis military, they're not protected by the Geneva Convention, and thus not POW's, hence cuba bound. :)

[Rbick]

Yeah you guys would be amazed at how easy it would be for them to kill a lot of people. You see, in the military, the weapons are locked in an arms room that belongs to your unit. Only about 3 people have access to this room and are usually never there when you need them. Secondly, ammo is NEVER kept near the weapons unless you are about to go to the firing range. So they pretty much don't trust our own guys with loaded weapons unless superivised by someone equally as stupid but with higher rank.

So these guys would have started shooting people, and the only people who could shoot back until someone was able to open some arms rooms would be the MPs with their 9mm Baretta M-9 pistols. The military is so political now you can't get anything done, I'm glad I finished my term...

[TreverSlyFox]

Ostensibly, the FBI and NSA/CIA found out about them from intercepted telephone and/or email communications, the use of certain "key" words in which would have alerted the NSA to the plot.

Sorta right, but mostly wrong.

The "tip off" came from a "Video Tech" as these idiots made a "training/recruiting film" on video tape. Showing them with semi-auto AK-47s up in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania all the while shooting and calling for jihad and shouting in Arabic, 'Allah akbar,' ('God is great'),".

They then took the video tape to a coping service to have it transfered to CD, while the transfer was being done the Tech watched the video. The Tech called the New Jersey State Police and the fun started from there. Over the next 15 months New Jersey DHS, Federal DHS, FBI, and God knows how many other 3 letter agencies, got into the act.

They infiltrated the group within weeks, tapped their phones, bugged their houses, computers and everything else they could find. Once they had everything needed they set up a "Sting" in a Machine Gun and Explosives buy.

The majority of the 15 months was the investigation to find if they had any links to any Major or Minor Terrorists groups and none were found. These jerk offs were just pissy assed Muslims that wanted to kill a bunch of GI's. They picked Fort Dix because one of them was a Pizza Deliveryman there and knew the lay out of the base and had access to it.

Terrorists yes, smart Terrorists ... not by a long shot! Just a bunch of ass hole Muslims that made some very simple mistakes in COMSEC and OPSEC. :D

[Chaosmark]

What's rather funny about this is that if they had spent perhaps a week looking around, they could've gotten their own hardware to transfer video to CD for a fairly cheap price.

Stupidity is definitely rife in the modern world. 'course, who can blame'em? They can't help it they're idiots. It's all their mother's fault! It's genetic!

...Right?

[tmp]

Are you sure that isn't the problem ? Most videos that come out
of the Middle East, of terrorists, look like they're 3rd or 4th
generation. The fact is they look like shit ! To think that
they might have been successful if they had only purchased a
cheap DVD burner ! Yes, being a cheapass is absolutely stupid
where they're concerned ! :D

[Corona]

In fact, this is so stupid, it makes me doubt everything about this story.

I... on a whim... recently picked up a tv-card for 2000 Rupees and installed it in my computer. I can watch and record TV and video and burn it on DVD, no problem.

2000 rupees would be about 33 dollars-US.

So these guys got creamed because they didn't have $20-$40??? :confused:

DVD burner costs another $30 dollars. :p More than a bit silly, isn't it?

[nbk2000]

Who's to say that these people even exist? Have you seen them? Has anyone seen them?

They could be complete figments of FedGov's imagination, props in a false-flag operation designed to get the public behind the Next Big Thing.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Iran got brought into the mix as somehow being connected to these 'people'. :rolleyes:

Or maybe this will be used as post-facto justification of domestic surveillance via ECHELON and CARNIVORE.

[festergrump]

They could be complete figments of FedGov's imagination, props in a false-flag operation designed to get the public behind the Next Big Thing.

...as per my original post in this thread.

I think it's silly to believe the media when things they spew forth don't add up or cannot be proven.

This newest assault weapons ban (1022) is still in requiring a decision, but from what I've read is gathering a little bit of momentum. It's things like this that might inevitably push it through, and remember... this one doesn't expire and includes alot more than the last one did.

Personally, I always listen for the "buzz words" when trying to determine a talking head's agenda (if he/she has one). In this type of scenario, they love to throw in phrases like assault rifle, high capacity magazine, semi-automatic, etc. even when such a description is not called for, is blatantly incorrect, or has absolutely no bearing on the news story.

Of course, NBK brings up several other reasons they may have manufactured this story completely from thin air. All more believeable than the story itself, too, knowing our government [dick]heads.

Fact is, it didn't happen yet and seems to me to be very unlikely to have ever happened with so many other non-combatant targets available to them that cannot or will not shoot back, so I refuse to accept it as truth... just like I refuse to believe that airline terror plot the UK supposedly uncovered (you know, the one with the "make your own AP on the plane kit" smuggled in drink bottles :rolleyes: ).

[Corona]

This video (link below) is not a figment of our imagination, however.

What I feel, is how dare America arrests people (if they did at all... NBK makes a good point) for a video they might or might not have made of themselves playing silly buggers in the woods when America itself is responsible for videos like this.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b51_1177774678

(Afghan Army Exercise Video)

Try not to die laughing.

[nbk2000]

Arabs running around with AK's shouting 'Allah Akbar' in America post 9/11 is not being a silly bugger, it's being terminally stupid.

As for the above 'training' video, that's a bunch of bored rednecks having fun. :p

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I know this is a very tired statement but the "jihadhis" have killed more people in the USA than the Japanese did at Pearl harbor. The Japanese attacked a military target, the "jihadhis" attacked a group of civilian buildings & folks going to work.

They are lucky this is such a "PC" climate today. If this were the 1930-40's we would start up the campaign to dehumanize them and then do what we did in WWII. Instead we explain away all the bombings of children and the innocent adults and wring our hands in anguish.... Many would think us cowards.....

It's amazing how we can forget that WE were attacked (most of the EU and the USA) in such a cowardly way [take a quick inventory of all the terror SINCE 9/11]. We actually attempt to "understand" the animals who would devour us....

Who in Heaven's name would side with such a group? Who would attempt to rationalize or intellectualize their actions? Generally people with such a deep seated self-hatred, that anything done or said against the EU & USA is somehow "heroic". It's pathetic how we stay silent.

[Corona]

We actually attempt to "understand" the animals who would devour us....



You'd better understand the thought process of the "enemy", his motivations and his history, my dear. By that, I mean real understanding... not the swill you get from the likes of FOX.

Or else you are done for. :p

This gives you the ability to "fight without fighting" (as the late great Bruce Lee would say). Soft power can be more powerful than hard power.

However, the great disadvantage Americans have in all this, is that they can't speak our languages while everyone can understand English.

[metallicash]

I know this is a very tired statement but the "jihadhis" have killed more people in the USA than the Japanese did at Pearl harbor. The Japanese attacked a military target, the "jihadhis" attacked a group of civilian buildings & folks going to work.

Yes, they may well have. But the Americans dropped "Little Boy" on Hiroshima, which was a civilian city(where there was civilian buildings and men, women and children going to work) with barely any military personnel, equipment etc actually stationed there. The bombs ended the war between US and Japan but so would have a bomb on many of the military targets. So then, 140,000 civilians and perhaps a few soldiers died instantly (estimate anyway, could be more or less) plus the the unlucky ones afterwards who died from radiation sickness, that is a lot more than than the terrorists have done.

Personally I believe that terrorism is just war, the terrorists are fighting for what they believe in which is a much better reason than just retaliation IMO, like the US with Hiroshima and Iraq. America and UK when attacking Iraq could be said to be terrorists or cowards, because they had state of the art weapons compared to Iraqis who had T-64s and AK-47s. They mainly attacked with cruise missiles or planes and also much better tanks, many of the bombs were killing civilians in the "attempt" to kill Saddam Hussein.

IMO I think that a country invading another is Terrorism (by terrorism I am talking about the way that it seems to be defined today) the only difference between the jihadhis and the country is, that one is a group of people and the other is a government of people, Also the government has the money for propaganda.:D

I dont support terrorism either way.
I have mixed feelings so I may have contradicted myself, sorry if I have.
I'm English so you can't dimiss it as "another fucking rag'ead"

[Jacks Complete]

^- What he said.

It is asymetric warfare. You can't beat the USA with military force, as even if it was a "fair fight" where there were US troops vs Iraqi (or whoever) troops on the ground, it would be fairly one-sided. But it is far beyond that, since the "coalition" thinks nothing of bombing a town from afar for credit from the other town that doesn't like the target, or flying a Spectre over the heads of men who don't even know that there is a war on, and blowing the shit out of them, laughing all the time as they do it.

I seriously doubt the new technologies that allow a war to be fought totally remotely will be any use in solving this, either.

The way to win respect is to stand and fight and prove yourself, yourself. The SAS learned that the way to win was to be tougher than the others, and to sit there while they threw the best they had at you, then you go toe to toe with them. Then they respect you. Sure, you may lose a few more men in the short term, but you win in the longer term.

It's like if your mom came into school and told off the boy picking on you - not only are you a laughing stock, but the boy will continue to beat your scrawny ass! Deck him, however, and you will often turn into mates for life, even if you don't win.

[Enkidu]

@Corona: I think that we could all agree that best news service would say, ‘This happened here. This other thing happened a few weeks earlier. Here is the entire factual history of the world,’ in a half-hour evening news program. Unfortunately, that’s not possible. News programs say, ‘This happened today, and here’s why.’ Whenever they continue on with the ‘why’ the program becomes biased, unless you agree with it. Journalist put their bias in their story either by directly inserting their opinion or indirectly by not reporting the facts. When you have a choice between a news service that is more biased or news service that is less biased (biased = doesn’t simply state the facts), you should choose the less biased. (Unless, of course, you are biased toward a certain point of view.)

All the major networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, and the BBC) lavish their opinion upon their viewers and have become more ‘entertainment’ than anything else. CNN is also fucking ridiculous. I lost what little bit of respect that I had left for them after they decided to cover Anna Nicole Smith’s death rather than the Iranians capturing the British sailors. Fucking ridiculous. Fox News also has many entertainment sections, for instance the O’Reilly Factor. This show is analogous to Rush Limbaugh’s radio show. *For entertainment purposes only.* None of the networks are close to perfect.

Open your mind Corona and pull your head out of your ass. Which network presents the most fact and the least opinion and entertainment?

@metallicash: The purpose of ‘terror’ism is to instill terror in civilians. Terror is associated with gruesome acts specifically against civilians rather than war (although war is gruesome in and of itself). I completely agree with you that dropping the bomb on Japan was immoral and could very possibly be defined as terrorism. However, fighting a war against armed adversaries, i.e., only engaging combatants as much as is possible, could hardly be defined as terrorism. If those adversaries began the conflict, how could you define a defensive action as wrong? You must differentiate between combatants (soldiers or armed civilians) and civilians.

Do you really think that the US involvement in WWII was retaliation? :( I thought it was because we were resisting becoming part of a German or Japanese empire. The current conflict is not retaliation either. We are doing our best (admittedly, poorly) to prevent another attack of WTC proportions on our civilians. What if we catch Bin Laden? Was Saddam Hussein’s execution by Iraqis retaliation or justice? Think about it.

@Jack’s Complete: Maybe you shouldn’t stand in front of the microwave as much. :)

[Corona]

@Corona:
Open your mind Corona and pull your head out of your ass. Which network presents the most fact and the least opinion and entertainment?




Believe it or not, my ass is a better place to be in than the world outside....

Actually, you said exactly what I meant. That if one gets their info from "quickie" news sources, one will never get news... only slop.

So we are in total agreement. OK now?

I have seen TV news channels which can put any American news channel to shame... however they can never match a bunch of books. For true understanding there are no shortcuts. One has to take a trip to the library.

Now then... I realize you are new here... all "full of piss and vinegar" as they say.... understandable.... however I do suggest you cool down a little and not be short with people you don't know very well.

[Enkidu]

@Corona: I'm sure your ass is a very nice place. I do apologize for insulting your ass. :) In sincerity, I apologize for being short. My only excuse is that someone who singles out 'Fox News' (the only rightist network, so obviously it wasn't selected at random) as crap makes me a bit pissy. I hope I haven't deeply offended you. In all honesty, I often come off too strong; this is one of my shortcomings both on the internet and in real life. (I think it's because I don't use enough smilies to show that I'm joking. :D :o :cool: :rolleyes: ) Also, I mistakenly thought that you were from thedisease, so you'd be used to the joshing. BTW, I'm not new here. I haven't posted much, but I joined less than a year after you.

I was going to ask you what news agencies you think are worthy of viewing. What are their websites? Do they broadcast in English? (Yes, I'm an American. I speak one language.)

@Jacks Complete: Yes, I'm only joking, please take it as such. I know you don't stand in front of the microwave often.

[metallicash]

The purpose of terrorism as defined by the US Department of Defence
"the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

The definitions that I had found via the giggle (google) define were all pretty much the same. Terrorism isn't to just terrorise civilians it is to intimidate something, generally for a gain, so the terrorists could attack anyone/thing e.g. a governement building, underground/subway etc.

I was referring to tactics of a war, i.e., carpet bombing on a city, not the war itself.

I never said that retaliation was the reason the US came into the war, I said that one of the main reasons for the Little Boy to be dropped on Hiroshima, was retaliation, for getting them back for the Pearl Harbour attack. However you are right in that it was to not be part of the Japanese empire.

I believe that the current war is retaliation to what happened on 9/11, but it is an oppinion. There isn't any facts for or against this.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The purpose of terrorism as defined by the US Department of Defence
"the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."........
I was referring to tactics of a war, i.e., carpet bombing on a city, not the war itself.

However you either accept treaty negotiation as law and convention settlement as law or you "invent your own laws". "Carpet bombing on a city" in the throws of a war is not terror per se' as it is an agreed upon tactic (Coventry, in the UK and Dresden in Germany). You can't have it both ways. War by it's very nature needs to be as ugly as possible within agreed upon guidelines. War criminals are such because they stepped beyond those guidelines. [Concentration camps were agreed upon but death camps were not.]

No one in their right mind meets force and aggression with consideration and caring. They meet it with overwhelming violence a step or two above what is initiated. This is a standard in the "escalation of force continuum" that most everyone is familiar with.

In the UK they found that having policemen without firearms is a poor idea so they adjusted for that - even though some said that was a dangerous precedent; they had to do so. If not they would get turned into pink mist by assholes who were armed. Therefore.....if someone with a weapon runs into a playground and starts harming kids; that's terror. If someone comes along and dusts that shit-head, that's righteous.....Where is there any terror in stopping the killing with what is needed to get the job done? Total war MUST be met with total war. The M.A.D. concept may just have kept the world from a horrible third world war. No one would discount any tactic in any battle if they want to win. What is adjusted for is the probability that "like will be met with like" and thus we have conflict conventions that we adhere to.

I will never apologize for the need to wipe out the garbage that murders children. Nor will I be taken in by PC crap that asks me to handcuff my actions when met by aggression! Because that is the real agenda of many who would ask for more circumspection in conflicts around the world!

[Jacks Complete]

It's not so much circumspection as actually winning. If you tear a country a new asshole, have you won? Not if it means you spent 1000 times what they spend, and eventually destroy your own economy, then get flattened by those who re-built after you destroyed the old ways.

Japan was destroyed in WWII. If it hadn't been they would never have become a major power in the modern world. Germany got flattened by the UK, and now, 60 years on, they tell us what to do via the EU! (and the UK government "gold-plates" those requirements while most of Europe ignores them, crippling us) Who won?

In another 30 years, Iraq will have nukes and power to strike at the ConUS. Long term, the Iraq war is one they can only lose.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

When re-reading this I think we have two issues here: what is terror and what is winning (a war)? I agree that in circumstances we find ourselves today, yesterday's losers are today's winners....HOWEVER, that is due to a variety of economic and social factors that occur well after the primary conflict.

When we examine Germany & Japan they both have a great emphasis on learning, fine schools, & they try to keep a lid on the immigrant issue. Compare that to the UK or US......Who falls in it's face trying to cater to the immigrant lobby. That alone is responsible for a serious wide ranging set of problems!

What's more this issue may not surface with other states with whom was fought a war (Iraq for example: who the Hell would want to move there?). Thus we may not see the same phenomenon in an Arab country.

[Bugger]

(cut)Japan was destroyed in WWII. If it hadn't been they would never have become a major power in the modern world. Germany got flattened by the UK, and now, 60 years on, they tell us what to do via the EU! (and the UK government "gold-plates" those requirements while most of Europe ignores them, crippling us) Who won?
The creeping Fascism in the world over the past 60 years, especially the last 20 or so years, would make cynics think that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy really won W.W.2, seeing that their ideology has lived on and converted especially the U.S. Government, and others, to its principles.