not sure about the chems... (AP)

[NoltaiR]

I haven't made any AP since last august and even then I was using lab grade chemicals (98% H2SO4 and about 27-28% H2O2) that I *borrowed* from my chemistry stockroom when we had a substitute teacher (my senior year in high school). It worked quite well but now I don't have those chems and I am out of highschool. I have a liter of acetone, a liter or H2SO4 that is made for cleaning drains.. not sure how pure it is but it is a cloudy black mixture (on the front label it says 'freshly blended sufuric acid'), and I have 6% H2O2 (got it today from supercuts)--I wish there was a way I could dehydrate the H2O2 so I could make it more pure.

But anyways I wanted to know if any of you guys had any suggestions and more preferably a ratio that I could use for the chems I have. I felt it would be safer for me to ask you guys then to ask the altavista search engine ;)

[ALENGOSVIG1]

WRONG SECTION! but its not your fault because there doesnt seem to be a explosives peroxides section anymore

If i were you i would use HCl instead of H2SO4. Every time i hear about AP spontaneously detonating it seems its always made from H2SO4 drain ceaner. You never know what chemicals other than H2SO4 in the drain claner. Your questions about purifying h202 and about different ratios has been discussed MANY times.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Before the crash, I remember many people stating H2O2 could be dehydrated by boiling, to 30% or even more ...
This only works with 6% and above, less has lower evaporation temperature then water or something.

On the acid, my main choice stays HCl, because it doesn't raises the temperature, wich is good if you don't have very efficiënt cooling like I do !

[Yi]

I thought that the acid was just a catalyst to the reaction and therefore it doesn't matter what acid it is? Also why does HCl not raise the temperature? Just add the acid more slowly.

[wantsomfet]

HCl raises the temperature, too. Add too much or too fast = cookoff reaction.
Most people using H2SO4 as catalyst seem to use high concentrated H2SO4.
If one would use only 15%-30% H2SO4 it's the same as using 30% HCl.
High concentrated H2SO4 raises the temp = formation of mostly dimer Acetoneperoxide = more unstable than the trimer acetoneperoxide.

I wouldn't use drain opener H2SO4, as ALENGOSVIG1 said, you never know what else is in it...

Oh, and about the concentrating of H2O2, NBK scanned a file called "chem.pdf" (~1,5MB) where the procedure is described. Should be at the Forum FTP. If not i can upload it, if i am able to connect again, i always get a "Try later, out of network sockets" error.

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]

[DBSP]

About why AP with HCl is more stable there might be an answer. I'm not shure but I think it was Mr cool who said that one reason to why AP with HCl tends to be more stable is that HCl actually is hydrogenchloride gas in an aques solution. Wich means that when the water evapourises from the wet AP the HCl gas is released and flows away into the air since there is no water left to hold it. But since H2SO4 isn't a gas the acid can't escape from the AP when it dries. And therfore the AP made with H2SO4 tends to be more unstable and even sometimes detonates on it's one..

[Yi]

I don't think AP is acid sensitive. But if there is something nearby that the residual acid will react with. Then the heat from the reaction may set off the AP. Still proper washing should remove the acid. Also if the AP is recrystallised from ether (probably not worth it) then it should have most of the impurities removed.

[DBSP]

I've personally never experiensed any problems with AP made with HCL but I haven't made it using any other acid. I allways wash my AP very carefully,(for every hundred grams) first with about 1,5l of water then with 200ml dest water and the with 200ml dest sodiumcarbonate solution. I haven't found my litmus paper to check the PH but I think it should be quite good.

The only accident I kno of that actually happened was the one Anthony had. I belive it was about 40g that accidently detonated while drying, that AP was made with H2SO4.

[Ctrl_C]

I knew I forgot a forum. moved to explosive peroxides.

[0EZ0]

Well i know where certain chemicals can be obtained, but i have not had any experience with AP. I intend to only use HCl as my catalyst. I'm told that H2SO4 tends to produce the Dimer form of AP. Visit your local pool store or find a pool/spa chemical supplier online and look for algecides. I know at my local pool store i can get a 15 litre tub of 15% H202 for $50. Online you can find suppliers which will sell up to 60% H2O2. As for acids, head to a hardware store. 30% HCl is usually easily found there.

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

Well its been sitting in an ice bath at approximately 6.2 degrees celcius for teh past 4 and a half hours. And now I am filtering the first stage of it (the liquid that past through the filter will be set in an ice bath over night.

I am using megas method of acetone peroxide with H2SO4. It is the drain opener but on the back it says contains concentrated sulfuric acid 'blended to produce less heat'. The wet acetone peroxide that I have made is reacting in the same formation as regular acetone peroxide made with lab H2SO4 except it is black (the color of my H2SO4).

Well I guess only experimenting will tell if it works like regular AP and if it does, I have a feeling it may be a little less heat sensitive than the normal stuff, but that means its just going to take a small BP charge to initiate it, but that should be fine.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

A fuse will do to initiate AP I think ;)

If you add a small charge of bp to a firecracker or something, it may be that the walls have started to breach, and you will get an inferior explosion ...

Just a thought

[NoltaiR]

The first batch that I filtered out only had about 5g of AP. Its been almost 2 hours that the rest of the mix (the liquid that passed through my filter) and it is precipitating very slowly (I am finally able to actually see the crystals forming at the bottom of the beaker). However when I filtered the first batch, the remaining liquid was clear (the way the mix is supposed to look) and the precipitate is white.

edit: the ratio I used was 55ml acetone:300ml of 3% H2O2:12ml of my drain opener H2SO4

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

[NoltaiR]

oh and one more thing, in my mix I used the commercial 3% H2O2.. just ten times the given amount. I looked on the FTP and couldn't find the 'chem.pdf' that wantsomfet spoke about.. could anyone upload this file if they have it? (or at least the part about dehydrating H2O2).

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

[Ctrl_C]

150mL 100% acetone

90 mL 30% H₂O₂

5 mL 36% HCl (Muriatic Acid)

thats what I use. Put in a salt/ice bath, let it sit overnight. Yields maybe 100 - 150g. I have no balance right now but next batch I make, prolly tomorrow night into sat, I will see how much liquid remains and figure a roungh estimate from density.

[DBSP]

If you would like to get the right ammounts of each chem when making AP by just pressing a few buttons. Then I suggest that you go to the ftp and download AP_automatic-formula in the upploads directory.

It's a small file i put together in excel.
Very useful :) .

Ctrl_c Using that ammounts of chems schould give you about 80g. I get 130g when using 200ml 35% H2O2 260ml acetone and 46ml 30% HCl.

[VX]

My friend uses cheap nail varnish remover for his acetone, as in England he has found that actone in it's pure form cannot be obtained from paint stores, as thir solvents are useually different. eg, toluene, 'petroleum distilates' dicloromethane, etc)

Anyway, he makes sure that it containes nothing except acetone, water and glycerine and bitrex. ( i, er he once used more expensive nail varnish remover containing more ingreedients, as he slowley added the first drop of 75% H2SO4 to the mixture, the whole vessel boiled violantly and emptied about 300ml of peroxide, acid mix onto his black trousers......The trousers are no longer black! Anyway he experimented then by adding a drop of acid to each of pure water, the H2SO4 (both the acid and the peroxide were new contaiers), and the nail varnish remover. The reaction only happened with the nail varnish remover. God knows what it actualy reacted with, but the reactin was vigourous.)

Anyway, if nail polish remover as described is used, and the finnished product is washed very well BEFORE the product is allowed to dry, he has found this to be a very economical 'safe' substitute,

hope this helps someone,

VX.

P.s. he used to distil pure acetone from the nail varnish remover, but eventualy found this unnessercery, and time consuming.

[DBSP]

I use pure acetone thet I buy from paint stores. It's much cheaper than nail varnish remover and it only costs about 2£ or 3$. The nail varnish remover is much more expensive to buy if you look at the liter price.

I never thought of distilling acetone.
Maby if you could get large ammounts of nail varnish remover cheap it might even cheaper.
This is if you run out of pure sources.

[VX]

Yeah, I see your point.
But I cant find acetone at paint stores, and my only other pure source is from the pool store. However I once bought 500ml of acetone from them for about £7!!
Also this shop is my only supply of other hard to find chems, so I limit what I buy from them to the absolute bare min, so that they wont click into what I am doing. ie, I never by any oxidisers or common fuels from them, only acids, peroxide etc.

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: VX ]

[xoo1246]

He lives close to me, Sweden...

[NoltaiR]

:p
I thought he was from sweden.. all this time that is just what I supposed 'swe' meant.. Not sure how he came up with 'south west england'..

[VX]

ahh, well thats me feeling rather stupid then! :o :o

Sorry about that people.

The reason I thought that is I know someone in South West England, and they abreviate it to swe. Anyway i'll try to avoid making a complete tit of myself in future,

VX

[DBSP]

Who give's a shit everyone get something wrong once in a while. :p It's not the first time someont mistake my location I should probably change it, if you can do that.

[Mooner]

Does anyone have ideas about takeing the imputites out of some hydrochloric acid in drain cleaner it says it only has acid, rust inhibitor (i have no idea what this is), and water.

[DBSP]

Are you sure that it's HCl in the drain cleaner? I've never heard of HCl being used for that. It should be H2SO4 if it's drain cleaner.

[Mooner]

The bottle says its hydrochloric on the back. :D

[Anthony]

The HCl "Industrial cleaner/drain unblocker" that I get is, I'm pretty sure HCl and water, it's clear and doesn't have any odd characteristics.

Obviously you'll have water, or some other liquid in your stuff, HCl is a gas and needs to be dissolved in something.

[nbk2000]

I believe the rust inhibitor is sodium nitrite (NaNO2).

[Mooner]

Whats a good way for me to get the stuff out of the drain cleaner.
I get this stuff from the dollar store for cheap I hpe i can use it for something.

[mongo blongo]

What stuff? Do you mean HCL? You can make a more conc solution by heating the diute sol making the hydrogen chloride gas evolve. this HCL gas can then be bubbled into water and the HCL will be dissolved..

[Anthony]

You can only get upto IIRC, something like a 38% solution using water, my stuff is 32% straight out of the bottle, so there isn't much point concentrating it.

[Polverone]

I'm not sure what the rust inhibitor in the HCl would be but I'm pretty sure it's not NaNO2. 2 HCl + 2 NaNO2 -> 2 NaCl + H2O + N2O3. Maybe a bit of phosphoric acid to inhibit rust? I know that phosphoric acid is used in other settings to put a rust-resistant coat of iron phosphate on iron and steel. Try evaporating some of this HCl drain opener in a clean container. If it evaporates down to a thick liquid with a high BP, it probably has phosphoric acid in it. If it leaves behind crystals, beats me what's in it. In the US it's easy to get MSDS sheets for products, and they're required to list all ingredients. I'm not sure how it works elsewhere. Can you get an MSDS for this drain opener?

<small>[ April 02, 2002, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Polverone ]</small>

[Anthony]

I can't find an MSDS for it on Google. I'll check the bottle to see if there's anything on it that would help find more information about the product. Not now though - it's cold and dark outside:)