Sulferless Black Powder

[0EZ0]

Hello Everyone,

A while ago someone asked for the method of making Sulferless BP. After having a search through the archives and other topics, i found not one regarding it's method of manufacture. So here it is.

I was quite interested in Sulferless BP for primimg rocket cores or as an igniter comp because of it's fast burn, and low gas output. Thus for example would be less prone to tearing apart a Rocket's core, while still igniting it quickly.
Well below i have posted the methods of producing both wet and dry mixed Sulferless BP. So on with the show <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

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Taken from the PDF 'FMX', i am unsure of what the proper title is, so if anyone knows, could they please post it. Thanks :) .

Sulferless Black Powder (dry mixed)

Explosive Type: Low
Burn Rate: 1200m/s max
Consistency: Dry gray or black powder
Deflag Temp: Approx. 300 degrees Celcius

Dry mixed powders are somewhat less powerful than wet mixed, but are quicker to produce.
Sulferless black powder has a higher burn rate than standard black powder. However, it produces considerably less gaseous material. Theses qualities make it better for tightly contained fragmentation charges butless effective as a propellant or blasting charge. Also the effectiveness of the final explosive depends on how finely the ingrediants are powdered BEFORE the powder is mixed.

MANUFACTURE:

Chemicals Required:

Potassium Nitrate/Sodium Nitrate (powdered)7.5 units by weight
Wood charcoal (powdered) 2 units by weight

Other Materials required:

1 container (any type)
1 wooden stirring rod (stick, wooden spoon, etc.)

Procedure:

1. Place nitrate and charcoal into container and mix thoroughly. For the sake of safety, do not mix more than 100g(4oz) at a time.

2. Store the mixture in a waterproof container.

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Sulferless Black Powder (wet mixed)

Explosive Type: Low
Burn Rate: 1500m/s max
Consistency: Dry gray or black powder
Deflag Temp: Approx. 300 degrees Celcius

Sulferless black powder has a higher burn rate than standard black powder. However, it produces considerably less gaseous material. Theses qualities make it better for tightly contained fragmentation charges butless effective as a propellant or blasting charge.

PREFERRED METHOD OF MANUFACTURE:

Chemicals Required:

Potassium Nitrate/8.2 units by weight OR
Sodium Nitrate/8.2 units by weight

Wood charcoal (powdered)/2 units by weight

Methyl alcohol/10 units by weight OR
Isoprpyl alcohol (70+% pure)/10 units by weight OR
Ethyl alcohol (70+% pure)/10 units by weight

Water

Other Materials Required:

1 Heat resistant container

1 Wooden stirring rod (stick, wooden spoon, etc.

Screen (metal or stiff plastic) with .25 inch or smaller
openings. Screen should be at least 6x12 inche OR
Cheese grater (metal or plastic)

Cotton Cloth (18in by 18in)

Heat source

Procedure:

1.Place the potassium nitrate,charcoal , and 5 U.B.W of water into the heat resistant container and stir well.

2. Place the heat resistant container on the heat source and stir until small bubbles appear r until the mixture becomes HOT to touch. Do NOT boil the mixture or allow it to to dry on the sides of the container, as it may ignite.

3.Remove the mixture from heat and allow to cool to room temperature.

4.Pour the alcohol into the mixture and stir well.

5.Strain the mixture through the cloth.

6.Wrap the cloth around the mixture and gently squeeze out all the remaining liquid.

7.Granulate the black powder by rubbing a small handful across the screen or the finer openings of a cheese grater.
8.The black powder must now be dried. This can be done several different ways. Three methods are listed below.

A)The powder can be dried using the sun. Spread the black pwder out on a large flat surface and leave in direct sunlight for several hours. This will only work if the air temperature is above 25°C (77°F)

B)The powder can be dried using a hot water bath. Place about 1cm of powder in the bottom of an acid resistant container. Fill a pan with hot water and then place the same container in the pan.
Refill the pan with hot water as it cools.

C)The powder can be dried using an oven. First Pre-Heat the oven to 150°C (300°F). Then turn the oven off and wait 10 mins. Place a small amount of black powder in the bottom of a large pot or pan.
Place the pot/pan into the oven. Let the material sit in the oven
until either it is completely dry or the oven cool below 66°C (150°F)
If the oven has cooled but the powder is not dry, take the black powder out of the oven and re-heat the oven to 150°C (300°F). Again, turn the oven off and wait 10 minutes before placing the black powder back in the oven. Repeat this process until the powder is dry. When using this method, it is a good idea to double check the oven temperature with a second thermometer-if the oven is too hot,
the material may explode.

If you use some other method, be sure to dry the black powder in small batches of about 26g (1oz)so if the powder does ignite accidently, the damage will be minimized.

9.The powder can be made into finer grains (if necessary) by spreading a teaspoon of powder at a time onto a flat surface and then gently crushing it. Be sure to keep the rest of the powder well away from the powder that is being crushed in case the powder that is being crushed should ignite.

10.Store in a waterproof container.

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After looking at these procedures, does anyone think it would have suitable application as a priming composition?

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated :)

[frogfot]

Just wanned to point out one thing, you forgot to mention that alcohol should be chilled down. Or, maby im missing something...

[Einstein]

For rockets it is best to use KNO3/sugar (6/4 weight) beacause it burns with huge amounts of gas and enough slowly. My friend has built these type of rockets and they fly about 250 meters :)

[0EZ0]

@Einstien,

I understand that you would use a propellant like KNO3/Sucrose in a rocket. But i was thinking instead of using the normal core priming mix of normal Black Powder (KNO3/C/S), that burns at 500m/s max (and that is on a good day). You would use Sulferless BP (KNO3/C), that can burn up to 1500m/s. As you can see the burn rate of Sulferless BP is up to 3 times that of normal BP. So it would ignite all of the core quicker. The other thing that makes Sulferless BP desireable for priming rocket cores, is it's low output of gases in combustion, thus not as prone to tearing up a rocket's core than regular BP.
Also it is much easier to improvise.

[Arkangel]

Frogfoot, it's not neccessary to chill the alcohol. The idea is to have the saltpetre recrystallise inside the charcoal particles. When you add the alcohol to the hot solution, it boils rapidly away, and in doing so, removing much of the heat of mixture. The faster you can cool it down, the smaller will be the crystals, and finer your bp. I can't remember the figures, but saltpetre is many times more soluble at 115 degrees C than it is at 20 degrees. (It allows the water to boil at 115 y'see)

Anything you can do to cool it quickly will help, so it might be marginally beneficial to cool the alcohol, but the evaporation is what really does it.

[inferno]

Sounds perfect for priming cores...As you said it won't rip up the inside of the rocket, and less chance of it blowing something out. I wanna see someone use armstrongs to prime a large rocket lol....

Also, this comp. will probably work better for salutes than BP, as if it burns at 3 times the speed, despite less gases being produced, it should work better.

[Mr Cool]

I don't think burning speed will have very much affect on the loudness/power of a salute. By the time the casing ruptures, all the powder should have burnt, and with identical casings bursting pressure will always be constant, to it'll explode at the same pressure no matter how fast burning the powder is.
Although, if it burns fast enough then it could produce a pressure above the bursting pressure of the casing, before the casing has had a chance to burst, thus making the explosion more powerful.
So yes, actually maybe it would be better for salutes :)

[0EZ0]

I was considering it's use for salutes. If it were to be used, then i would assume that you would completely fill the casing?

It does not seem to have the best characteristics for a bursting charge/salute. But i guess it's worth a try.

(Edit-typo)

<small>[ August 03, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[inferno]

Hell it's worth a try...I wonder if it needs the same amount of mixing/ball millings as sulfur BP? It's pretty hard to get BP as good as commercial stuff. I'm just wondering if without sulfur, it is easier to make well?

[0EZ0]

Sorry, what i meant in that post was that while Sulferless BP is easy to make, it still had a high performance.

[mr.evil]

My sulferless BP burns much quicker than standard BP (with S).
I guess this stuff is good for uses like fuse making, priming stars etc.

[Jason]

Hi everyone

I've tried this sulphurless BP many times but, it just burns slowly and throws out alot of sparks. Has anyone done this with KNO3 fertilizer and had good results?

Inferno if it's the dry mixture it'll need lots more mixing cause the sulphur helps crush the BP somehow. Ages ago I made a 'Improvised Ballmill' and sulphurless BP takes more time to crush than sulphur BP.

[0EZ0]

Jason, how finely divided were the components before you mixed them? :confused:

Take note:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Also the effectiveness of the final explosive depends on how finely the ingrediants are powdered BEFORE the powder is mixed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Maybe you could give us some more information on how you produced your Sulferless BP, like ratios, method, and what kind of chems you used (Fertilizer Grade KNO3 etc.).

[mr.evil]

Lancaster Noble Noble(stoich.) Thomas(SFG 12)

KNO3--&gt;70,5 KNO3--&gt;80 KNO3--&gt;87,1 KNO3--&gt;70
C-----&gt;29,5 C-----&gt;20 C-----&gt;12,9 C-----&gt;30

taken from: PFP Database

i think Sulferless powder burns very fast, in a flash(after 2 hours ballmilling).

[inferno]

Jason - I may be making a generalisation but im assuming from your details that you're slightly new to all this, and id say your black powder wasn't in the right proportions/not mixed properly.

I'm just wondering, does anyone here wet-ball-mill BP? Does it have better/worse/unchanged results compared to dry milling?

[mr.evil]

i always wet my BP before milling, i've milled some BP in the electrical coffeegrinder once, it worked well but there's a great risk the BP ignites because of static electricity/friction.

maybe he mixed the chemicals by volume, not by weight. (in a beaker, 70ml KNO3 30ml C, beginners mistake :rolleyes: )

edit: some spelling mistakes

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

[piggarro99]

i am happy to say that any patrons of england can call a stop to their "ball milling for black powder." the simple fact is that the shop ("smk budget Guns and Tackle") on the hive in colchester actually sell it.

i do not have a website i have found for them but i am sure you can get one for it.

by the way it is the colchester in Essex, i was recently told that there is one in yorkshire...

[Yi]

Yeah you can buy it but you need a Explosives Licence (COER3) from the cops with the UN0027 and UN0028 written on it. You'll also need a registered explosives store (MODE B covers up to 7kg of mixed explosives and up to 250kg of fireworks) from trading standards. Oh and if they don't deliver you need a recipient competent authority to transport certificate from the Health and safety executive.

You can buy pyrodex (a blackpowder replacement) without a licence and of course SBSP and DBSP.

[piggarro99]

looks like these guys have tapped a raw selling theme. they are the only place i know that sell it.

it is my birthday today and i was happy to recieve my membership approvance today as well...

thanks roguesci for making my 16th a good one

which county are you in YI.

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: piggarro99 ]</small>

[Anthony]

piggarro99, look at the "location" at the very bottom of his post.

I would find myself asking this: If sulpherlus BP is better than regular BP, why has regular BP been used for centuries, when sulphurless woulod have been easier and cheaper to produce?

[mr.evil]

sulferless BP produces less gas. So i guess standard BP will be more powerfull.

He's from the United kingdom, if i'm right that are ireland, scotland, wales and england. He asks wich country...

btw,
granulated sulferless BP burns super fast, like good H3 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[zaibatsu]

piggarro is right Yi, in the UK it IS legal to buy BP without a licence, and this was said by a (semi) prominent member of the UK shooting community. Funnily enough, it was in a thread about pyrotechnics...

PS: NEVER buy any airweapons from SMK Budget guns and tackle. Also, Henry Crank's in Yorkshire sells BP as well.

[piggarro99]

thank you for the back up zaibatsu (sp?)

why shouldnt i buy air rifles from there though, i do have a BSA meteor and it is a good quality one, do you go to colchester? that is an honest question and not confrontational in the least by the way..

the law states that if you are to obtain certain things like bp there is nothing legislative stopping you buy it. although it is to be sold at the discretion of the proprieter.

in other words if a bunch of idiots walk in giggling the store owner can refuse to sell them this on any grounds.

though i thought that all shops could do that!!!
can someone clarify this for me please, thanks

sorry anthony i thought that he was not from england but maybe wales or something. ever since the independance they do have their own laws...

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: piggarro99 ]</small>

[Yi]

The propellants (smokeless powders etc) used for reloading firearms most firearms do not require a licence in the UK (neither do fuses, smoke generators or military simulators). Pyrodex is a blackpowder replacement that does not require a licence but actual blackpowder requires a licence. I know this for a fact as confirmed by the firearms officer for my area (also in charge of explosives licences).

Also <a href="http://www.ribbands.co.uk/prdpages/BP.htm" target="_blank">here</a> it shows that a black powder authorisation is required (Explosives licence with correct UN numbers).

[piggarro99]

i will not turn this in to an argument but i feel that you should realise the people like smk would not break the law as they are a massive chain. it is like seeing tescos selling m-80s.

i have been going to smk for around 2 years and only recently has it been seen there. could it be possible they changed the law, but i feel sure that the law was like this for a long time...

[Yi]

I do not wish to argue. Only to settle this. People would not apply for licences should they not require them, correct? The high power rocketry community uses blackpowder in ejection charges. For this they require a licence as well as for the rocket motors (up to D power or 20Ns impulse can be bought without a licence or unlimited power in hybrid rocket motors). The law for aquiring blackpowder has not been changed.

I can email some evidence for this to a mod or if deemed necessary by a mod to you.

[kingspaz]

right, enough of this arguing/settling whatever the fuck it is. if either of you still disagree settle it by email. this thread is about sulphurless black powder not the laws regarding it.
back on topic!

[piggarro99]

ok we will leave it at that. sorry ppl

[kanbayat]

Quite a debate going here..In my oppinion a good sulperless bp is still sugrose,powdered sugar,dextrose..which ever you decide to use. It has been loaded into 22 cal shells for outa range jackrabbits before..I remember this as a child..I will try to find the formula my grandfather used..but it works well. It is hard on gunbarrels though. As far as rockets..I know that sugar has been used in early pyrothecnics..in the professional aspect..there may be sveral reciepts on the net or even in the library for a good one.
I will still try to find ours..however,the chances of finding it is..not very likely
peace ppl

[NoltaiR]

If my history serves me right, then the only real purpose sulfurless powder has ever had (and the reason it was even put into use) is that although it has less gas output than regular BP, it doesn't corrode the barrels of shotguns and rifles nearly as bad. And that is its only purpose!

[Marvin]

While it may seem like a good idea to make a rocket out of a composition that produces a lot of gas in fact this has virtually no effect on the thrust produced. The specific impulse of a fuel is almost entirly determined by the energy output of the fuel divided by its mass. One of the highest performance solid fuels available is Ammonium Perchlorate/Aluminium. Replacing aluminium with carbon would on the face of it seem to produce more gas, but the lower energy output into gas produced, results in a lower pressure x mass of exhaust *at the temp of the exhaust*.

Sugar is a carbohydrate and can thus have its molecular formula written in the form Cx(H2O)y. As far as the thermodynamics is concerned its little more than carbon and water. The thrust it produces is thus about the same as an equimolar amount of carbon/oxidiser, but the extra mass of the water reduces its thrust on a gram/gram basis and gives it a corrispondingly lower specific impulse. Fuel density is not normaly a problem unless your trying to use gases.

Sulphurless BP is much easier to make than normal blackpowder but lower in performance, historically sulphur has been an expensive ingredient and difficult to obtain. Being only a 2 componant mixture its much more tolerent to home production methods. Proper blackpowder requires insane degrees of preparation to give good results. BP for rocket engines usually contains a much reduced amount of sulphur anyway becuase the resulting mix has a burn rate that is less dependant on the pressure inside the rocket. This makes the burn more stable and the mix is less likley to runaway (Increase in pressure causes increase in burn speed causes a furthur increase in pressure etc) causing the rocket to explode.

For good rockets the only important things are specific impulse, which limits the performance, and being able to produce the mixture with a very reliable batch to batch burn rate, which enables you to alter the rocket design to get best performance for the given fuel. Optimising the choke is particulaly important. Too wide a choke and you have a roman candle which goes nowhere, too little and you have a bomb. IF the burn rate of the composition is too slow increase the surface area, sulphurless BP should provide no problems for an end burning rocket but be aware that the smaller the rocket you make, the faster the fuel will have to burn.

[mr.evil]

And offcourse you can use sulferless BP with Chlorate compositions...

[Devils Sign]

And that is a good thing if you use KCLo3 based stars.

[inferno]

I had an unweighed attempt at sulferless BP like a month ago, and it would have burned great except for when I was evaporating the remaining water, about 1/3 of the KNO3 recrystallised on the outer edges of the plate i was doing it on, so not all was in the KNO3. It burned about as fast as a line of matches with the heads touching each other, not all that bad considering it wasn't weighed and much of the KNO3 wasn't in the charcoal.

It would make for a good black powder firearms propellant in the way the S8 would not corrode the metal barrel, but the lower gas production would make it pretty poor performance. A good point from a pyrotechnics angle is the lack of that rotten sulfur reek....

[frogfot]

Today i tryed to compare how efficient it would be to use cold acetone for precipitation of KNO3 in cia bp production. I also used different ammounts of acetone.
Basically i chilled down acetone to -22degC. Then i heated up 10ml water with 15g KNO3 to 100degC, then i poured slowly 2,5ml cold acetone into hot liquid, with constant stirring.
When bubbeling dissapeared i sampled temp.

Test was repeated same way with 5, 10, 15 and 20 ml acetone, with big intervalls of time (so that acetone reaches -22 again..). Ofcaurse, temp was a bit higher cause i transferred acetone with a plastic syringe.

Then i made over same test, but with acetone at room temp, 23degC.

Heres results in a graph i made:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/acetonechill.gif" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/stuff/acetonechill.gif</a>
Sorry, i dont have Exel installed..

Even if this test isn't a precise one, but i think graph tells that chilling acetone is indeed not a useful thing, as someone preveasly said. From the graph i also found that 1/1 acetone/water is most efficient, oh, maby this conclusion can be applyed only on 3/2 KNO3/water solution. (I took that much water cause i found it better in bp production, i think KNO3 will penetrate activated coal better/faster)

PS. Gonna measure KNO3 crystal size in my next bp (the usual one, with sulfur..).

[Jason]

Oh the way i've made sulfurless BP is mixing them by volumne :D it's 7 teaspoons of KN03 to 3 teaspoons of charcoal and the stuff burns like shit. Guess like i'll have to buy a scale I know i've asked this before, but has anyone had much success with KN03 fertilizer. The stuff is decently fine caused i used a coffee grinder.

[carbonated]

Well you probably need more charocal as it weighs a lot less than the KNO3. Usually if it has trouble burning you need more KNO3 and if it bubbles (pearls) it needs more fuel. I bet your fertilizer will work just fine.

[Marvin]

Good processing is actually much more important than accurate amounts. All BP requires very fine pregrinding of its ingredients, rub a little of the powder between your finger tips, if its the slightest bit gritty, its not anywhere neer well done enough. Using soft charcol helps massivly. If the powder is not fine enough, and one of the componants is much finer than the others, small amounts will apear to burn as if the quantities are wrong. These arnt very scientific suggestions, but its what Ive found to happen and its been confirmed by other people.

[atmosphere1]

Sulferless produces less gas ?? why?

4KNO3 + 3C ---> 3CO2 + 2N2 + 2K2CO3

For 4 mol KNO3 5 mol gas production, the same as in normal black powder (containing sulfer),even more by total weight.

Sulfer burns at a lower temperature than charcoal does. It should make normal BP more sensitive than sulferless BP ,in my opinion.
In larger rocket motors(above ID 30mm) normal BP is difficult to use , because the burnrate increases to rapidly under pressure,more than the burnrate of sulferless powder.

Your sulferless powder should be as black as the charcoal itself for good preformance. To get it done you need to know your way around with finely powdering the components en using the right amound of water . I've seen a lot of people using far too much water .

[SpiffyVision]

I quote my special book to answer your question:

"Potassium nitrate ignited with carbon gives only K2CO3, but in the presence of sulfur gives CO2, K2SO4 and K2S. Thus more gases are created by exploding Black Powder that contains sulfur than Black Powder that does not."

[jimmyboy]

this will definitely work - but wont have the power of the regular mix - you will have to ball mill the hell out of it though.

[Bert]

I quote my special book to answer your question:

"Potassium nitrate ignited with carbon gives only K2CO3, but in the presence of sulfur gives CO2, K2SO4 and K2S. Thus more gases are created by exploding Black Powder that contains sulfur than Black Powder that does not."

Well, I will refer to MY special book- Tenny Davis' Chemistry of Powder & Explosives- Where I find cocoa powder for cannons and long range rifles, with several military composition listed having Sulfur contents of 3 - 5%, and one with 0%. I will also point out that Potassium carbonate on heating decomposes to release CO2. Also, having made sulfurless meal for various uses, I'd say it has plenty of gaseous products! And an actual list of all the things that burning BP produces is a heck of a lot longer than "CO2, K2SO4 and K2S". Don't trust a chemist on pyrotechnic reactions. They think they know about it, but they generaly know mostly solution chemistry, not flame chemistry. The notion that pyrotechnic charcoal is just Carbon is also dead wrong. It's got a fair ammount of Hydrogen and some Oxygen and even Nitrogen compounds too-

Who wrote your "special book"?

[SpiffyVision]

Bert, my "special book" was written by a man named Ian von Maltitz. The book I refer to is called "Black Powder Manufacture, Testing & Optimizing." The author was actually giving the results of a test done by another person whom I dont know of at the moment. I guess it really depends on what your using your BP for. I'd imagine that 10 grams of regular BP vs. 10 grams of sulfurless BP in a mortar tube lifting an aerial shell, that the regular would do better because more gasses are made therefore propelling the shell into the air higher and faster.

BTW, the book is made by AFN. You should know who they are.

[vulture]

What do you base your assumption on that regular BP would work better?? Look at the equation and use stoichiometry and see that it produces more gas/gram.

"Potassium nitrate ignited with carbon gives only K2CO3, but in the presence of sulfur gives CO2, K2SO4 and K2S. Thus more gases are created by exploding Black Powder that contains sulfur than Black Powder that does not."

Since when are K2S and K2SO4 gasses? They either decompose before their boiling point or they're solid.

Besides that, the statement that only K2CO3 is produced is blatently wrong and shows great ignorance on the authors part. What happens to the N2? Does it dissapear into photons maybe? Also, if you want all CO2 to be absorbed as K2CO3, you'd need a large excess of KNO3, which would then lead to a shitty mix with too high OB. Which would produce N2 and O2 gas.

So saying that it only produces K2CO3 is absolutely wrong, no matter the ratios.

Reaction equations are useful to describe the situation before and after, but in the time the the reaction takes place you'd need differential equations over infenitesimal small intervalls.

[Bert]

Bert, my "special book" was written by a man named Ian von Maltitz. .
Yes, I know him and have the book. He's enthusiastic, but not all knowing. The parts of his book that are derived from his actual experience and experiments can be trusted as workable methods. And some of the rest is heresay, some more is plain wrong. Never write about things just form someone else's written speculations and you'll do fine.


The author was actually giving the results of a test done by another person .
Ian didn't do the tes himself, and who ever wrote that originaly never did an actual test either, 'cause that's not what happens.

I'd imagine that 10 grams of regular BP vs. 10 grams of sulfurless BP in a mortar tube lifting an aerial shell, that the regular would do better .
Absolutely correct, and I wopuld not use Sulfurless BP for lifting a shell. The uses of low Sulfur or Sulfurless BP as propellants are in guns with much higher pressures, or large rockets, once again with higher backpressures than a loose fitting aerial shell would provide.

BTW, the book is made by AFN. You should know who they are.
Yes, I know who "they" are. They are Jack Drewes, and I've probably known Jack longer than you've been using pyrotechnics. Jack is, like Ian, enthusiastic. Most of the information in AFN and its self published material is workable. It may not, however, be optimum or the reflect the practices of choice of professionals. Go get you some Pyrotechnicas (start with IX and XI) and a copy of Hardt's Pyrotechnics if you want to see what the next level of informational writing in this subject is like.

[SpiffyVision]

Well, now I know that my trusty book has flaws in it :eek: (I'm being sarcastic...). Remember Vulture, I was quoting, and I really dont know much about chemistry so maybe the quote was uncalled for at the time. Sorry.

Bert, thanks for the info. I find it quite interesting that you know all of these guys. If you dont mind me asking, how do you know them? Do you work with them or something?

[vulture]

Remember Vulture, I was quoting, and I really dont know much about chemistry so maybe the quote was uncalled for at the time. Sorry.

There's no need to apologize, the forum's here to doublecheck and verify info.

We all run into crappy info which we think is credible, happens to me often enough.

[T_Pyro]

I will also point out that Potassium carbonate on heating decomposes to release CO2.

Does it? I thought Potassium carbonate was stable to heat. If it did decompose, it would give K2O. I'd read that only carbonates of less electropositive metals decomposed on heating...

[Bert]

Does it? I thought Potassium carbonate was stable to heat..
K2CO3 decomposes into K2O and CO2 over 860*C. There is signifigant K2CO3 in the ash left by burning black powder, it is the major solid residue right enough.

[atmosphere1]

but : Is sulferless BP usefull ???

Yes ,i think it is it works great as a (reliable) proppellant from what i have experienced(using carbonized bleached toiletpaper instead of carbonized normal wood).

sulferless BP needs more pressure to preform as well as normal BP , this may be the reason why it isn't usefull to lift a shell. It doesn't produce less gass ,but it takes more time to produce it, because it is less sensitive.

So,I still don't understand why people say :"sulferless burns faster "

[poor man]

I don't fully understand why Sulfurless would be faster burning than normal BP.

Sulfur has a low ignition point and a low caloric output, so it makes it easier to ignite and also makes the flame propagate through the mixture faster but does not realease large amounts of energy. Charcoal, has a higher caloric output, but is slower burning. Without the sulfur, I don't see why the flame would propagate faster using Charcoal as the only fuel.

I may be missing something very basic here, but is there anyone who could possibly explain the reason for this?

[Marvin]

I think I have a plausable reason why people might post this. Sulphurless BP is a 2 componant mixture, BP is 3 componant, so its much easier to produce a well incorperated mixture of the former. For only a low degree of processing, sulphurless might well perform better.

BP also seems to have a much larger burn rate dependance on pressure than low sulphur mixtures. I understand this is why low sulphur BP is used in rockets commercially.

[Bert]

BP also seems to have a much larger burn rate dependance on pressure than low sulphur mixtures. I understand this is why low sulphur BP is used in rockets commercially.

Do you have any data on the pressure exponent of Sulfurless vs. Sulfur containing mixes? I've never seen this for Sufurless in rockets. I've seen numbers of about .6 - .8 for BP with Sulfur, depending on mix and who took the data.

[Crazy Swede]

I have personal experience of hundreds of kilos of both ordinary black powder and the sulphurless variety (80 % potassium nitrate). Both kinds bought from Germany by the way.

There is no doubt that commercial black powder without sulphur burns slower compared to the ordinary type! This applies both for granular and meal type.

We use sulphurless black powder for priming in situations where the ordinary type burns too fast to give a reliable ignition.

[chemofun]

OK... in this thread we have seen that sulphurless BP burns faster than normal BP, but we've also seen that the commercial variety (of sulphurless BP) burns slower than regular BP. Why are we seeing conflicting observations and which is it supposed to be? I want to use some to make fuse but I don't know if I will be making fast burning or slowburning fuse when I use Sulphurless BP. I could experiment but it's easier to ask here.


Maybe I'll just go ahead and experiment anyways.

[Pots-O-Potash]

Yeah, Amide Powder is a mix of Ammonium nitrate, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.

The formula is: 35-38% ammonium nitrate, 40-45% potassium nitrate, and 14-22% charcoal.

Also, for anyone worried about hygroscopisity (moisture sensitivity) sodium nitrate is worse than ammonium nitrate. It absorbs more water faster and has a higher tendency to become deliquescent (absorb enough moisture to form a puddle as a solution)

[ETCS (Ret)]

I've ball milled this mix:

7 parts KNO3
2 parts Charcoal
1 part Al powder (Home-made)

in the dry mix with brass ball media for 1 week
and it works eminently well in salutes.

The additional milling time does make a huge
difference in the burn rate.

[deadman]

Did you actually mill KNO₃, charcoal, and aluminum? Wow. Did you try it in anything other than salutes?

[Bert]

What is your method for "home-made" Aluminum powder?

I take it leaving the Sulfur out of the mix for milling was considered to be for safety?

Aluminized black powder salutes have a history in professional display work. In particular, a while back the US Gov't. sold a huge ammount of surplus black powder at less than $2.00/lb. in pallet load quantities- Which with the addition of 10% or so of cheap Aluminum made some very nice salutes.

[Cindor]

According to the manufacturers of ball-mills BP is the only pyrotechnic mixture that can be ball milled all together, but only with non sparking balls (lead, ceramic, etc.)

[c.Tech]

I’ve never heard of someone ball milling a metal powder with an oxider because of the risk of explosion. Does aluminium spark?

[Lewis]

On the topic of Black Powder and Aluminum, I would definately say I've recieved decent results. I find that even a small amount of Al will give the gunpowder a yellow-green tinge when it burns.

When added in larger quantities I found the burn rate became much quicker.

[deadman]

Aluminum and Corundum are both considered to be non-sparking when hit against aluminum, corundum, or other non-sparking metals. But if hit against iron, it will cause a spark. Lead shouldn't cause an impact spark either. Does this mean it is safe to mill aluminum with BP and using lead media? NO!

Even though Al and Al203 are "non-sparking", when chipped or scratched and exposing pure aluminum, that aluminum is very pyrophoric. It is not surprising when that aluminum reacts with a source of oxygen and burns white hot. I guess I've already spelled it out so I won't say it.

By the way, I know you weren't thinking of milling BP + Al, but others read these threads as well.

[Alex1101]

Deadman, would it be possible to ball mill just aluminum? There were some posts cautioning that after opening the mill alluminum without the protective cover of Al2O3 may ignite - maybe some oil or stearin could be added to Al before milling to protect it from igniting? If so, would this additive "desentisize" Al to make flash compositions with this Al safer, less sensitive?

[deadman]

Remember this is a sulfurless BP thread so no more Al or salutes. Alex look in the aluminum powder threads all the info you'll need...for now.

Somebody mentioned ceramic as being non-sparking. I wouldn't trust it, i do know it is especially hard though and you don't have to worry about replacing it soon.

I figured 80:20 Sulfurless BP to be faster than the standard BP. Commercial may use a different ratio, and it might be faster burning with more pressure in that case for some reason. I do know sulfurless bp will be tougher to light, but I think it may work wonders in quickmatch. In the following weeks I will do some small tests and report them in this thread. As far as burning in a pile, in an angle iron, in a salute or fountain, granulated and meal. Probably lifting a baseball out of a three inch mortar for pressure tests as well. But like a said in a couple weeks time.

[Cobalt.45]

Four formulas for sulfurless BP are here; http://members.shaw.ca/gryphon223/PFP/
Visser's excellent site is here: http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/compoDB.html

When BP has a larger than "normal" ratio of Al added to it, on the order of 10%-15%, expect a lot more dross as a result.

Used in rockets, be sure that the throat diameter is such that it's not occluded by the additional ash that's produced.

Al has been ball milled since day one. Read up on it.

1000 mesh can take as long as 200 hours in the mill to become on par with good blackhead. Much depends on the mill and the media used, obviously.

It has to be checked often, as much to "breath" it, as to see where it's at fineness-wise.

[Pots-O-Potash]

A while back I made a 6 :1 :1 mix of KNO3, charcoal, and sucrose ground together, with a mortar and pestle, into a fine meal. It burned almost identicaly to conventional BP meal so I'm guessing that the sugar has similar ignition-lowering and flame propagation enhancing effects as sulfur.

It burned significantly faster than either my 70/30 KNO3/sugar or 80/20 KNO3/charcoal mixes of equivelent intimacy.

I wonder how KClO3 would react in such a composition (possibly similar to "chlorate black powder" but with realitive safety and sanity?)
Just a thought. =)

[rangegal]

Holloween snuck up on me, and since I figure every holiday is worthy of fireworks I whipped up some half decent polumnas to throw around.

I didn't have any BP premade, so I decided to whip something up that would come close. I was out of sulfur too, so I started experimenting with KN/C mixes measured out by eye since I only have access to a scale at school, and I didn't think to weigh anything while I was there like I normally do.

After a few tests I figured I got the ratio just about balanced, and I ground the stuff with my mortar and pestal for about 10 minutes, but the performance still sucked. So I decided to try mixing in some rust that I use to catalyze my KN/SU rocket fuel, and the burn rate increased a lot. Nothing was ever measured, as I was just in a rush to get some polumnas together; so I don't have any numbers to share, sorry.

In the end I kneaded it together with some ping pong/shotshell NC putty and let it dry in a thin sheet before crushing it into thin granules to increase flame progogation. I'm guessing the acetone probably recrystallized the KN into the C particles, which also increased performance.

I'll probably follow this up with some more scientific experiments catalyzing sulfurless BP and even normal BP once I get some more KN. I'm also going to do more experiments granulating BP with NC laquer; it dries a SHITLOAD faster than the BP/water method, but thats a different story.

[Bert]

Perhaps you should try changing one thing at a time, rather than three when experimenting?

There were black powder/smokeless powder mixes used in ammunition during the early part of the last century under names such as "Lesmoke".

[Dodecahedron]

Rangegal, how fine was the "rust", and how was it incorporated into the mixture? Also, acetone is not a very good solvent for KNO3.

"...since I only have access to a scale at school, and I didn't think to weigh anything while I was there like I normally do."
Than make one, it isn't hard at all, and it doesn't need to be spectacular. The ability to improvise is very important you'll find. For some time, I used one fashioned from discarded/trivial materials until I fashioned myself a nicer one.

edit:

On the subject of sulphurless BP, I have had limited success with it. A 3:1 (KNO3:C) mixture by weight seems to work for simple purposes, but I have observed that a 4:1 mixture burns slower and hotter (or so it seems at least). I have also tested a 5:2 ratio, but it seems not to have any particular advantages. I have heard that a 7:2 mixture works nicely, but I have not verified this. In all of the tests above, mixing was done with a mortar and pestle, ground together for perhaps two minutes. My charcoal was of very low quality; being made of hardwood (I don't recall which kind) and not very fine to begin with (slightly gritty to touch, which I am informed is bad). I would have used a ball mill, but I am still constructing one. The fact that I managed to get the 3:1 mixture to work in weak polumnas with my charcoal at least shows that it has some potential.

I have not tried the 7:2 mixture, nor Fe2O3 as a catalyst, but I will at my next opportunity.

[rangegal]

Like I said, I was just trying to get some granulated BP fast enough for some polumnas. When I get more KNO3 I'm going to experiment again in a more scientific fashion.

The rust was very finely powdered. I scraped rust off of an old 55 gallon drum in my backyard, powdered it and mixed it with water, then dried it, and powdered it again. I ground it into the BP for about 5 minutes. I just collected a couple ounces more of the stuff today.

My charcoal was from maple. But now I have some good white pine charcoal, which I am currently using to test iron oxides catalyzing effects on ammonpulver (works for ammonium perchlorate, why not ammonium nitrate?)

I wasn't trying to recrystallize the KNO3 into the C, the acetone was just supposed to keep the NC jelled, but I noticed the BP was dissolving too, which lead me to believe when it dried it would be recrystallized with everything else.

I have used this powder in polumnas, burst charges, and recently a tiny 1" mortar (which didn't work very well).

[PPVGINA]

Thank you. for the places that I try to find sulfur it is very expensive (well on my budget it is) this will be a very good alternative. thanks again !!! :)

[Dodecahedron]

After some experimentation, of the simple ratios (i.e 3:1 etc.) 7:2 is preferable. That is to say, seven parts of KNO3 by weight to two of charcoal.
The charcoal I used for the tests was hardwood, manufactured for use in a grill, though it had no filler. I am reasonably sure that it was thus a little 'overcooked' for use in BP (as well as it being a hardwood). In the future I will experiment with home-made charcoal to ensure better quality.
I managed to get a small canon to work with the product, though it worked less well with the 3:1 batch, and only went 'plppt' with the 4:1. Projectile was not accelerated to nearely the speed I wanted, but it was something.

[ak_4554]

I tested an 8:2 ratio of sulfurless bp with regular pine charcoal, it burned at a much slower rate than my normal bp. I read about newspaper charcoal so i was curious and tried it out, i ball milled the composition together for about 6 hours, took some out for a sample and lit it - Surprisingly it burned incredibly fast for bp. I does produce much less gas though, doesnt work very well in salutes =(

[Dodecahedron]

Isn't 8:2 the same as 4:1 ? Which does burn rather slowly as I've said.

[ETCS (Ret)]

This topic has developed quite well.

The ball mill that I have is a Thumbler's Tumbler model AR12 with the hexagonal rubber tumbling container. The tumbling/crushing media is 1/2 inch brass balls when pulverizing pyro powder mixes and steel ball bearings or roller bearings (both work well) when powdering aluminum foil alloy or charcoal.

To make aluminum powder I take ordinary aluminum foil, which is an alloy of mainly aluminum and magnesium, and cut it into very small pieces. Time consuming but well worth the effort. When I have collected about a Kg then I put it into the tumbler with the steel media and let it run for several weeks continuously. The end result is a very fine powder that works exceedingly well in pyro mixtures.

I find that home-made charcoal is far superior to any that I've purchased. I have an abundant source of Pepper Tree limbs that I cut into 8 to 10 inch lengths and dry for one year. Then I simply build an open fire of these dried pieces and let them burn until they just become charcoal and aren't expelling any more flammable gases. Using a pair of tongs I take the pieces when they are ready and quickly dip them in a pot of water to extinguish the charcoal combustion and then let them air dry for at least a week in the sunshine. Finally, the pieces are pulverized with the steel media in the tumbler for several days of continuous tumbling.

Yes, the sulfurless pyro mix is tumbled all together; well dried KNO3, home-made charcoal and home-made aluminum powder, for as long as 4 weeks continuously with the brass ball media. The longer it tumbles the more powerful it becomes.

Once it is finished the meal powder may be granulated if desired, or used as it is for salutes or for fuse.

It ignites easily and burns quickly.

[AngryPenguin]

I was under the impression that the best way to make charcoal was to do it in the absence of oxygen, when I have done it in the past I have done it in a drum with a hole in the top over a fire, this prevents the wood burning (to an extent) and just drives off the water and most of the other volatiles. This seemed to produce fairly good carbon for my BP.

Are there advantages of making the charcoal in the open air as you do?

[Bert]

Retort cooked charcoal is easier to make consistently than charcoal made from parially burned firewood, and will likely have less ash. It is important that it not be over cooked if you want it for fast propellant powder use- Some of the volatiles should remain, and the carbon should not be converted to a graphitic structure, as can happen if left too long in too hot a furnace. Just cook it long enough for the evolution of flamable gasses to nearly stop.

In the really old days, you made your charcoal by setting up a large beehive of fire wood, covering it with dirt and setting fire to it while carefully controlling the entry of air. Highly skilled work, and the charcoal was usually contaminated with dirt and ash. Retort replaced that method as soon as large enough metal vessels could be cheaply fabricated.

[ETCS (Ret)]

The method of open air burning wood to make charcoal was inspired by a whiskey maker's ad many years ago. The ad showed a neatly stacked pile of wood that was about to be ignited with the words "They said it was not possible to make charcoal this way, but we did it anyway!" The charcoal is used to filter the whiskey as it is being processed.

The open air method is far simpler to initiate and manage. As you gain experience you know when each piece is ready to be dipped in water to extinguish the burn. Any ash that may have formed on the outside is washed off by the water dip.

The end result is beautiful, black pieces of charcoal that have a slightly creosotic smell. As long as the wood pieces are not too thick they will be converted to charcoal all the way through the interior.

No doubt this has been mentioned many times before; the absolute best data for the various black powder recipes and the straight scoop on the importance of good charcoal is found at Ulrich Bretscher's pages:

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html

If you haven't been there yet you're in for a real educational experience!

There is always the possibility when tumbling any pyro mix that a mishap may occur. Therefore locate the tumbler in a remote area with adequate shielding to contain any deflagration or explosion that may unexpectedly erupt. It is a slight possibility and I know of no cases where it has happened; except at large black powder factories. As long as your chemicals are sufficiently pure and you use the appropriate milling media you will minimize the possibility. Also, keep your batches fairly small as well.

[Bert]

I remember that Jack Daniel's advert as well. Maple wood is used for their charcoal, same as GOEX oddly enough.

[Cobalt.45]

Anyone interested in empirical tests of different types of charcoal and its effect on BP should check out the site here:
http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/index.html

Also, reprinted there is the US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory papers, "A Comprehensive Review of Black Powder" and "The Influence of Physical Properties on Black Powder Combustion".

There are tutorials on everything from black match to whistle rockets. An exhaustive study of how many different catalysts affect whistle mixes is interesting as well. But off-topic. A really quality pyro site, for sure.

Lumpwood BBQ charcoal (mesquite is what I've used) works OK for BP but nothing like GOOD charcoal, speed-wise. Home fix-it store 2 x 4's makes as good of a charcoal as most anything out there except balsa or palawania, IMHO.

Back OT, sulfur lowers the combustion temperature of BP. Unless there's a good reason to not use it, like not having any, I would use it for that reason alone.