Does a Lighting Link work on AR variants...

[Panzerfaust29a]

For instance would a Lighting Link work on a Bushmaster? Which AR style rifle would it work in?

[Panzerfaust29a]

Update
hxxp://quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html they claim:

"To use an SWD Auto Disconnector with an AR-15s it is essential that there is at least an 1/8" clearance under the takedown pin post for a lightning link to work. All Bushmaster, Sendra, Essential Arms, and some PWA preban lower receiver will work perfect without modification. Some early Colts such as pre-89 SP1 and Sporter II will also work perfect without modification. Later Colts (post-90 to mid 90's) will also work perfect if the pinned-in sear block is removed.

Most Olympic Arms lower receivers may need internal filing to fit a DIAS or a lightning link. This is because they are not built to the same specifications as the early Colt or bushmaster, and are too narrow by a few 100ths of an inch to fit a DIAS or link. Preban Eagle Arms lowers will fit a DIAS but not a link in Circuit's experience because it is slightly too large internally to support the link and let it work.

Other lowers such as late-90's post ban Colts have unmachined web sear block and high shelf while Postban Eagle Arms, Armalite, ASA, and some PWA prebans and all PWA postbans have a high shelf that will need to be milled out to allow a lightning link to work."

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Now if we could get a nice, neat drawing with scale and a proper list of OTC materials; designed to be finished out with commonly accessible tools.....we'd be in business!!! - For entertainment purposes only, of course.

[InfernoMDM]

Most of the people I know says it messes up your weapon. Not to mention the standard AR, and even the M-4 doesn't have the older beefer bolt assembly. Many guys who get full auto weapons will actually go out and purchase the older style A-2 (military grade/pre ban) bolt assemblies.

Also I am sure you read the above post so I wont repeat that part. I haven't tired one (there pretty much useless) so I can't be 100 sure.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Inferno:

Actually, I'm pretty sure the semi-auto and full-auto bolts are identical. The difference between the AR-15 and M16 is in the bolt carriers (and of course the fire control parts).

Panzerfaust:

Please be aware that in order to use a Lightning Link in your AR, it's not enough to simply have the LL fit in your lower.

For example, I have a standard Bushmaster AR that a LL would not work in without modification to the rifle. (I don't have a LL, but I can tell from diagrams I've seen.) The issue is that you need to have a special kind of semi-auto bolt carrier. I don't have a picture handy at the moment, but essentially the rear-underside of the bolt carrier needs to be machined back to the exact point that it will just engage the upright part of the LL when the bolt is closed.

At least one older AR model (the Colt SP-1, if I'm not mistaken) came with this kind of bolt carrier. But nowadays, the degree to which the rear-underside of the bolt carrier is machined back from M16 specs seems to depend on the manufacturer.

I've never seen one that would work with a LL without further machining, and I imagine that machining the bolt carrier material is a bitch (though certainly not impossible). The key is to know how much material to remove. I wish I could help in that regard.

A LL shouldn't mess up your AR if the LL is properly made and fits well in the rifle. However, there IS the reliability issue. I would certainly not trade my stone-cold reliable AR that can easily shoot 6 rounds/sec (semi-auto) for one that can inaccurately spray bullets even more quickly but that's less reliable.

[InfernoMDM]

Sorry I meant bolt carriers, but generally its the whole system that most people replace as most of you know some wear and tear on a AR means parts don't work as well as they use to.

[synweap223]

Correct. Besides needing 1/8 inch under the takedown pin for it to reciprocate and function, the bolt carrier has to be of the original design so the cut will activate the trip plate of the LL properly. If you have a newer style BC, then you will have to replace it or machine it to the old specs. Search quarterbores site and you'll find awesome descriptions and photos detailing the differences.

[Yafmot]

It is with great regret that I must inform you all of the Passing of Mr. Tom Tellefson, one of the last of the original "ArmaLite Five" (Gene Stoner, George Sullivan, Chuck Dorchester, L. James "Jim" Sullivan ((no relation)) and Mr. Tellefson). He was like a dad and a brother to me, so it'll take a long time to get over this one. He is survived by his wife, Ruth, and one daughter, Toni Bagley.

His accomplishments were astounding. He designed the plastic furniture for all of the ArmaLite weapons, as well as most of the Stoner designs developed at Cadillac Gage and Ares Armament Corp. He also worked in other areas of the weapon's designs, in addition to the development of the .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO round. And anybody can build a custom rifle to fit one person, but it's quite another thing to design one that will feel comfortable in the hands of anyone from a 90 pound Montagnard to a 280 lb. linebacker.

Ever check out the so-called "MItchell Stock" fo the Mini-14? It was originally designed by Tellefson for Laser Aiming Systems Inc. of Fountain Valley, CA. Primarily for law enforcement use, anyone lucky enough to handle a Mini so-equipped has marveled at the way it fits the shooter. Length of pull, drop to comb, the "Beavertail" fore end, everything fits so well it just makes you want to go out and kill something.

He Wasn't just about mass production, though. His custom rifles are prized among the true cognoscenti. He built them for Roy Weatherby, back in the '60s, and a couple for Sam Cummings, founder of Interarms. An old school craftsman, his work harkened to the days before freefloating barrels or even glass bedding. The way he bedded the barrels was to scoop out the fore end, almost a single layer of cells at a time. When he was done, you could take a cigarette paper and run the corner of it along the barrel and it wouldn't dip in anywhere. What a touch! And his rifles hit. A .270 he built un a Mk. IV action would consistantly hit 1/4 MOA.

And as if that weren't enough, he was also one of the bedrock founders of the aerospace composites industry. He designed the first set of pultrusion dies in the US, as well as the first practical collimator for the production of unidirectional graphite prepreg tape. He was the only guy I knew with an autoclave in his garage, and we made lots of parts in it over the years.

He never did get a computer, which is a real pity; imagine what he could contribute to this forum.

I'll be monitoring this section from time to time, just to make sure the black rifle folklore doesn't get too full of shit. It's the least I owe him.

[Joxer]

I'll be monitoring this section from time to time, just to make sure the black rifle folklore doesn't get too full of shit. It's the least I owe him.

But I feel free to blame McNamara and his "Wizz Kids". They are the fucktards that said the M16 didnt need a cleaning kit, so naturally one was not supplied.

[Yafmot]

Yeah, and how about all of those Aircrew lost because of those meddlesome, cherry-picked target lists. How fuckin' arrogant can you get? Hell, he did as much to fill up the Hanoi Hilton as any SAMs or AAA did!

The consensus among knowledgeable people was that McNamera was an incompetent fuckhead. This included the folks at ArmaLite, but they had to keep their mouths shut since they were somewhat indebted to him for pushing their rifle through to production. And if he got it started, he could get it stopped.

As for full auto devices, in my innumerable conversations with Stoner, Tellefson and Jim Sullivan, any mention of such just brought on a groan and a roll of the eyes. They considered the things to be a sick joke. They weren't reliable, causing weapons to stutter, short cycle, or maybe just keep running when the trigger was released. (Although Tellefson once showed me how to stick a folded matchbook cover in the disconnector to make it go full auto, but that only worked for a few rounds, or maybe a couple of mags at the most.)

Full auto is, for a civilian, probably more trouble than it's worth. The ammo budget, for one thing, can get out of hand. For another, you've got to go way out in the weeds to shoot it, since most ranges don't allow it even if the thing is papered. People hear full auto fire and think "machine gun." They think machine gun and think "illegal." Being good citizens, they call the cops, and pretty quickly you'vr got a lot of explaining to do. If you're illegal, and Ted Kennedy's secret gun police (spelled B-A-T-F) get involved, you're looking at 10 years without parole ON EACH COUNT! That means posession as well as manufacturing, so there's 20 right there, and they're real good at thinking up other shit to throw at you, like Tax Evasion, for failure to pay the transfer tax on a "machine gun."

And if you're ever at a gun show or shop and you meet someone who offers a bunch of money to convert a weapon, get the fuck out of there! The guy is almost certainly a professional snitch for the gummint, and you're in the early stages of being set up. Here's how it works....

You're admiring a piece at the show, and you're overheard explaining that cash is tight. A guy approaches you and says he has a way to pick up a little extra cash. He has a "customer" who wants a weapon or two converted. Usually it's an M-1 carbine they want made into select-fire M-2. Don't worry, he says, he'll show you where to drill the holes and supply the necessary parts. If you ask why the hell he doesn't do it himself, he'll wave a wad of bills under your nose and offer up some shit like he doesn't have the time, the tools, his wife won't let him etc.

You could use the cash, it looks easy enough, so you make the arrangements, and a couple of days later he shows up with TWO M-1s for conversion. Not to worry, he'll pay double. Oh, and by the way, they've also got this .22 pistol they want silenced. It's okay, I'll show you how. The pistol is almost always a blowback design such as a Ruger Mk.-1, or a Colt Woodsman, Browning Buckmark, Hi-Standard, you get the idea. This is because a fixed barrel is much easier to suppress.

So, he shows up one day with some parts, some drill bits and templates, a .22 pistol with the front sight milled off or otherwise removed, an adaptor that fits the barrel, some automotive freeze plugs with holes drilled in the middle, and an Aluminum tube to fit the adaptor.
A week or so later, you call him up to tell him the work is done, and when he comes over, he brings the "customer" (usually looking like a biker or a gang banger). The customer says he wants to test the stuff before he pays for it. The other guy says it's cool, he knows him well enough. And besides, you're not really out anything, since the wepons, tools & materials were supplied.

So a few days later, the customer calls up, saying "Hey! That stuff worked great! We want some more! If you agree things will get worse. He says he's coming over to pay for the work already done. When he gets there, he'll strike up a little small talk, for distraction, and then say that the money and the stuff is out in the car. You accompany him to the car, and he reaches in and grabs a paper bag. He sticks his hand in and produces a .357, which is pointed at your pituitary gland. He Identifies himself as a Federal agent and you, my friend, are fucked.

The next thing you know, your place is crawling with all kinds of cops, tearing your place apart. The snitch may have also left a submachine gun or sawed off shotgun for the agents to "find."

So let's see... Two counts of manufacturing a "machine gun," two counts of posessing same, one count of posessing a silenced firearm, one count of manufacturing a silencer, one count of manufacturing a silenced firearm (a separate beef), one count of engaging in a criminal enterprise (which is why they stuck you with TWO M-1s, to "prove" it was not just a one-off gig).

And if you agreed to make some more during that taped phone conversation, you can add a biggie; conspiracy to run a criminal enterprise, which can be good for up to 30 years. If the informant left a sawed off, there's another posession count.

So, there's at least 70 years for the posession & manufacturing raps, 30 years for the "conspiracy," (that's 100 so far), and we haven't even gotten to the engagement in a criminal enterprise, or the various tax evasion cherges that can be tacked onto the manufacturing charges. And don't forget that you transferred the weapons without paying THAT tax.

Yeah, buddy, you're GOOD 'n fucked.

Of course, theres no sign of the snitch. As far as YOU know, he got busted too. But the feds are just keeping him out of the picture so you won't figure out that the weapons all came from a BATF locker. The last he'll be heard from is when he testifies before a Federal Grand Jury, but you won't know that, because identities and testimony before them are secret in criminal cases. He just collects his money and moves on to the next town. (The going rate per bust was $500 back in the '70s; it's probably double that now.)

So if you're ever approached by a stranger with a deal too good to be true, do the world a favor, and punch that motherfucker straight in the mouth!

[Joxer]

Yafmot said
...Full auto is, for a civilian, probably more trouble than it's worth. The ammo budget, for one thing, can get out of hand. For another, you've got to go way out in the weeds to shoot it...

The only thing I would add is that accuracy goes out the window when firing full auto.
I have read articles written by those that have conducted experiments (I have never even held a FA firearm) that only the 1st round will be on target. Follow-up rounds can be off by several feet, vertically and/or horizontally, depending on caliber, range, motion of target, etc. A person would do better shooting from the hip, blindfolded.

I personally don't want to lay down heavy and inaccurate fire, just to keep their heads down. I want to hit the damn target.

A SMG might be nice to have, because it is more controllable and used in short range fighting. But a rifle? Why bother?

[Yafmot]

Controllability is always an issue with full auto, as is inacurracy. One of the things used to improve both is the inline stock. This puts the bore centerline in a straight line with the buttstock, & hence the shoulder. This, in turn, minimizes barrel climb during a burst and, to a somewhat lesser extent, semiauto fire.

Another bug is recoil. The heavier the bullet, the more felt recoil. AND the lighter the weapon, the more perceived recoil. Put the two together, as in a FAL, and you've got a handful. On the other hand, take a light bullet, like a 5.56, and get a tact'ed-out 16 with a heavy barrel and every conceivable kind of sight, laser, flashlight, bipod, and assorted other rail mounted geegaws on it, and if it weren't for the noise and muzzle flash you'd never know the thing went off.

There are internal issues, as well. The big one is the bolt carrier slamming back into the receiver (or buffer, in some cases). This creates a phenomenon where the felt pressure on the buttstock starts out small & then spikes up as the various mechanical components find something solid to hit. I once saw a film of a test where a 16 was mounted on some balsa blocks which, in turn, were mounted on roller skate wheels (this was before skateboards were big). The buttplate was placed snug up against a load cell mounted on a fixture to hold everything still. When the weapon was fired the pressure ramped up slowly and slightly at first, and then abruptly spiked up to about 260Lbs peak. This was in the days of paper strip recorders, when everybody watched the test, instead of the readout.

Back in the late '70s-early '80s, a designer friend of mine, Jim Sullivan (ArmaLite, Mini-14, M-77) was hired by the government of Singapore to design a light machine gun, PLUS the plant to build them in. The result was the Ultimax U-100, still available from Chartered Industries of Singapore. It's chambered for 5.56, and features Sullivan's unique Counterpoise recoil system, which eliminates the peak pressures which can throw off your aim.

It works by using a carefully designed recoil spring which doen't "bottom out" at the rear of its travel. Instead, it gradually slows and then cancels the momentum of the carrier group before the spring is fully compressed, obviating the need for a buffer. So, instead of a series of 260 Lb jolts during a full auto burst, it gives a constant, 17 Lb push, which is easier to manage. MUCH easier.

I was shown a videotape of a demo performed by a female Singaporean soldier who might've weighed 90 pounds soaking wet. Four targets were placed 25 feet apart at a range of 100 yards. She loaded a drum into the weapon, cycled the bolt, RESTED IT ON HER CHIN (!), and proceeded to hose all four of those targets in a single, 100 round burst, sinking all but a few into the centers. If she tried that with an M-60, or for that matter a 16, she'd have been in dire need of emergency mandibular surgery.

The shooting press, and all others who have fired it, have unanimously proclaimed it the all-out best LMG in the world today. Its only "drawback," if you could even call it that, is the 450 RPM cyclic rate. But when you're putting all the metal on target, rather than just hosing down the neighborhood, it's not much of a concern and, in fact, keeps you from wasting ammo.

The Army & Marine Corps could've had them, but that fucking JSSAP (Joint Service Small Arms Procurement) committee bit on that Belgian "Minimi," AKA M-249, AKA SAW. That thing's just a scaledown of an older design, the M-240. They were familiar with it, and that was enough for them. The machine gunners say it's just great, but it's the only LMG they've ever fired, and they just don't know any better.

Right now, MGI is making a recoil buffer for the -15/-16 that works on counterweights and does pretty much the same thing. I think they're making a gas piston system for them too, plus some other goodies.

(Jesus! Aren't my posts getting long winded?)

[njohnson1941]

Perhaps, but you exhibit a depth of knowledge not always found here.
Don't hold back, this is good stuff to share.
SOT

[Joxer]

I think they're making a gas piston system for them too

They are.
http://www.talonarms.com/talonarms/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=369&products_id=928&zenid=c23b547c233488d513bfe4bbae115dca

I'm interested in one, but I'll wait and see how they work out.