Low-temperature explosive

[The Duck Man]

Well, Hello Forum, it's the New Guy speaking.

I've been looking for an explosive to use in a blast-dispersal mechanism for an unspecified organic compound, molecular weight in the high 10,000s. As this compound is heat-sensitive, the explosive needs to have the following characteristics:

MUST HAVE:
-Low heat produced
-NOT Soluble on Toluene or CCl4

Nice to have:
-Resistant to accidental detonation of all kinds
-Easily obtainable
-low toxicity/easy handling and assembling of charge

Couldn't care less:
-Cost
-legality (of precursors)

Thanks in advance, the Duck Man.

[nbk2000]

Wouldn't happen to be a toxic protein dissolved in a carrier solvent, now would it? ;)

Several of those requirements are mutally exclusive.

Best thing I can think of is CO2. Pressurize the container with CO2 bubbled through the solvent until it becomes supersaturated and ruptures the container.

If it's at several thousand PSI, and saturated, than the container will rupture with the force of several pounds of TNT (assuming sizable container), while being endothermic (cold) and the carbonated solvent will vaporize into droplets that will almost instantly evaporate, leaving a fine particulate cloud of the protein.

[The Duck Man]

As long as the first two aren't mutually exclusive it'll be fine. Not perfect, but as long as it works...

Good idea with the carbonation, but the dispersal should be accurately timed, which would be hard with your method. I'll think about it some.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The very fact that it's an "unspecified organic compound" makes any response somewhat superfluous. Some organic compounds have inherent sensitivities that do not allow for an all encompassing answer to that query.

The answer you were given was well thought out as it was not carbonation, per se' but rather the use of CO2 as a material due to the criteria outlined. The use of CO2 COULD be in many formats. More information is needed to narrow the field.

Blast dispersal is well studied. The field of various materials could be widened depending upon the construction of the device. Distance from the initial blast naturally lowers the temp. Explosive aerosol dispersal is also well documented as patents describing WMDs....And the energetic materials are very likely not that esoteric.

[megalomania]

I don't think a single explosive compound would fit the requirements, but there are likely many mixtures of explosives that can lower the explosive temperature. As Charles mentioned, the field is well studied, so I would suggest trolling through patents on military manuals to find an appropriate solution.

I think this might be an engineering challenge, building an appropriate container, maybe something like a water charge to absorb some of the heat and to assist in the dispersion. Just having a random pile of explosives in contact with the substance to be dispersed will likely not achieve the desired effect.

My first guess at the "unspecified organic compound" was a polymerized energetic, but that seemed unlikely. Next up would be a protein, NBK picked up on that too... Would explosively dispersed ricin even be toxic to people beyond the blast radius of the explosive? (meaning, an explosive blast should be far more lethal than any toxin in the air). This sounds like one of the ideas the media is always bleating about (oh no, ricin dust!), but is impractical in reality for technical reasons. I would think any of several dozen toxic industrial chemicals could be dispersed to greater lethal effect with far greater ease.

[The Duck Man]

I don't think a single explosive compound would fit the requirements, but there are likely many mixtures of explosives that can lower the explosive temperature. As Charles mentioned, the field is well studied, so I would suggest trolling through patents on military manuals to find an appropriate solution.

I think this might be an engineering challenge, building an appropriate container, maybe something like a water charge to absorb some of the heat and to assist in the dispersion. Just having a random pile of explosives in contact with the substance to be dispersed will likely not achieve the desired effect.

My first guess at the "unspecified organic compound" was a polymerized energetic, but that seemed unlikely. Next up would be a protein, NBK picked up on that too... Would explosively dispersed ricin even be toxic to people beyond the blast radius of the explosive? (meaning, an explosive blast should be far more lethal than any toxin in the air). This sounds like one of the ideas the media is always bleating about (oh no, ricin dust!), but is impractical in reality for technical reasons. I would think any of several dozen toxic industrial chemicals could be dispersed to greater lethal effect with far greater ease.
Ricin? Amateur :P I was thinking either the classic Botulinus Toxin, or Epoxytrichothecenes. The advantage of the latter is that it penetrates skin rather well, making the settled dust exceedingly dangerous.

About the effectiveness: I know an aerosol spray type of thing, with the toxin in Your Organic Solvent Of Choice would be more efficient than blast dispersal can ever be, this is a thought experiment on aerosolizing large (multi-kg) amounts of said agent, in as short a time as possible.

[FUTI]

Well this isn't on the same line as whole thread but...what I have heard is that USA developed freon based bombs for bacteriological agent dispersal so that heat of detonation is "soften" by evaporation of freon making whole thing cool enough so that biological agent can survive the blast. USSR used similar aproach but they used polymeric "fillings" that absorbed the energy of the blast through braking and melting away. Anyway ordinary crop duster beat them all with regards of money(amount) per square mile to be used.

[Rbick]

Well I know this sounds k3wl, but...
AP undergoes what is known as an entropic detonation. Pretty much no heat is produced by the detonation of AP. I'm unsure of its solubility in toulene though, and it obviously doesn't give you the stability you're probably looking for. Just a thought...

[Enkidu]

Acetone Peroxide is a non-polar molecule, so it would be soluble in non-polar solvents such as toluene and carbon tetrachloride.

[fiknet]

Why does the explosive have to be in contact with the solvent? I would assume that contact with the solvent would wet the explosive and alter its detonation.

[Gammaray1981]

Fiknet may have a point. Perhaps the placement of your biological/carrier mixture in an insoluble but breakable container, say a thin glass jar. This would eliminate the need for toluene-resistance in the explosive. It would probably make it easier to carry, as well, if you sealed it correctly.

[megalomania]

A simple method would be to place the explosive charge in a test tube, and place the tube inside a glass jar, which holds the compound to be dispersed.

Surely there must be some heat from the detonation of acetone peroxide? If the reaction does not have an entropy change, the kinetic energy alone must add some heat. Acetone peroxide little studied since the powers that be rejected it for commercial or military use. I guess terrorists and experimenters didn't get that memo though :)

[FUTI]

Well wouldn't ozone made by AP detonation damage toxin or bacteria meant to be used in the *bomb*? Water is often ozonized...but thread is becoming increasingly interesting.

[Rbick]

Good point. I actually just did some reading on Ozone, and white blood cells actually produce ozone as an anti-body. It is also used as a disinfectant for water and food. So I don't think that would go over too well with your toxin or bacteria.

Thing is, I'm not sure if the amount of Ozone created by the decomposition of AP would be enough to cause a failure. I guess it would depend on how resistant the "whatever it is you're using" is to oxidation and how much is actually produced by AP. Either way, there is probably a better explosive to use, I just brought it up as an idea 'cause it is so easy to make.

[nbk2000]

The problem with using any explosive with a toxin or protein is the shock loading to them from the explosive can detoxify them. Much like how heat solidifies egg-yolk, so too can violent shock.

[megalomania]

What about a one-two punch of using a weak low explosive to initially disperse the material, followed by a brief interval to allow air to mix in, and then have a larger more power explosion to push the material away?

I suppose you would have to take samples of your post detonated material and test it for effectiveness. This is a highly speculative problem that is dependent on the material being dispersed, the type and quantity of explosive, and the design of the device. I doubt the military will share their data, so only experimentation is likely to solve the problem...

[The Duck Man]

Hm.

Well, thanks for your help, but from what I gather this isn't gong to be practical. Almost on the level of the Tokyo Sarin attacks really.

Bad idea in the beginning.

[nbk2000]

I remember a patent that used a small bursting charge to disperse the liquid contents of an aerial bomb as a course spray and then, a few moments later, exploded an FAE to shatter the droplets into a fine mist and use the airblast to drive the mist into and through any cracks in the targets defenses.

[Vigo]

Perhaps one could suspend the organic substance in dry ice (solid CO2) and make one of those simple dry ice bombs with it (just put it in an air tight container like a PET bottle with some water).

That way small pieces of dry ice are spread and as they evaporate the organic substance is released. The explosive power is not great but not much heat is produced.

I do not know how foolish this idea is but perhaps it may be inspirational.