Website bomb-making lessons to be outlawed across Europe

[sbovisjb1]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2023030.ece

This is bad enough, but it gets better...

Internet service providers (ISPs) would face charges if they failed to block websites containing bomb-making instructions generated anywhere in the world, EU officials said.


Now your ISP will have criminal charges pressed against them, if you are caught. It seems that in Europe, the average civilians rights are being infringed upon and their fears are being exploited by a ignorant and selfish government.

Tell us what you think, especially members who know of people affected by this. It is indeed as sad day for knowledge.

As you near the end of the article, you see this little tidbit of information slipped in.

This would require airlines to submit certain data such as passport and credit card details which could be used by national security agencies. The US can keep the data for 15 years but after the first seven it becomes “dormant” and can only be accessed case by case.


Now the government has access to your banking details with out having to go through any courts. This does make me sad for people living in Europe and the U.S. Thank God, I'm not one of them.

[hatal]

Some silly-sobbs here in the EU (there are quite lot of them) think they can decide which kind of information you can access and which not. All in the name of freedom, liberty, security and a bunch of other shiney "political" words that didn't have any real meaning in the past either. Especially in the eastern parts of Europe.

However: This shit will never pass (atleast not in practice and not here).

As for the U.S., how the hell can a "elected" goverment become so paranoid over and over again? Stalin would certainly congratulate them.

[sbovisjb1]

I truly feel sorry for the world. I hope that Canada won't become like this. My justified fear is that in the original Constitution, John A. Macdonald deduced that the populace didn't have enough judgment, so he gave far more power to the Prime Minister. It's written that the Government can suspend the constitution and human rights for 30 days (for 30 days so that the power won't get out of hand) This has only happened once, when French terrorists captured politicians in the 70's. Canada is very liberal and easy going. We care about the average person, but no matter how good we have it, we can become far worse to the people than Bush to America.

[nbk2000]

When Rogue Science is outlawed, only Outlaws will have Rogue Science. :)

Seriously though, I think we (staff) should create an archive version of the site (including attachments) that would be updated quarterly or so, and made available for download via filesharing services like Rapishare, or as a torrent.

This way, even if they do ban us from europe, and somehow manage to prevent TOR or PUTTY proxying, you'll still have more stuff than you can ever read...to read.

[Enkidu]

I absolutely agree with nbk. Someone in the staff should be making an archive of RS in its entirety every so often. (I do however understand that y'all might be a little understaffed and that would add to the burden.)

I honestly don't understand how websites can be outlawed. Very few books have ever been banned. How is website (which contains information for informational purposes only) any different from a book (which contains information for informational purposes only)? Admittedly, I'm not up on laws regarding freedom of speech, especially in Europe. If those websites ever got banned, I'd say that that would be the biggest biggest 'book burning' yet in Europe.

[nbk2000]

First they ban physical objects, since those are the easiest to find and destroy.

Then they ban knowledge, because knowledge can be used to replace the lost objects.

Then ideas, because you can't start gaining knowledge without having the idea of doing so.

And finally the ability to think at all, for stupid mindless sheep don't put up a fight when being led to the charnel house.

Anthem, by Ayn Rand, is the future that our 'masters' wish for our children.

[Bacon46]

Seriously though, I think we (staff) should create an archive version of the site (including attachments) that would be updated quarterly or so, and made available for download via filesharing services like Rapishare, or as a torrent.

I have over 100 gigs of free space and can give certain people access to specific areas on my personal server for direct uploading and downloading. I also have a broad band internet connection and can seed multiple torrents.

If there is anything I can do to assist in the archiving process let me know.

[megalomania]

As a matter of fact I do have an entire archive of the site, but I am balking because of the attachments. The way the system works is all the attachments are encrypted and dumped in a random file system with no way to tell what is what. This is done intentionally to prevent direct browsing of the directory, but it makes it impossible to back up attachments. Rather, attachments can be backed up, but they can't be used.

Although I am working on a workaround, we may just have to do without attachments...

[nbk2000]

What about the new VBulletin ability to sideload attachments to another server via FTP?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Furious Pakistani book burning turns into internet censorship:
http://www.answers.com/topic/internet-censorship-in-pakistan

I'm sure there is a very logical answer for this behaviour.....

[hatal]

This ban is completely useless and futile. Even if they could enforce this new law perfectly, the demand would simply just shift from websites to mailing lists.User would stop uploading this kind of information. Instead there would "cladestine" mailing lists with the necessary attachments.

This wouldn't bring any real change, would it? It would just show how ignorant and oppressive goverments can be when it comes to dealing with freedom of speech. The only thing they would achieve is to limit the "natural" growth of communication, and give basis for the knuckle-headed promoters of censorship in the future.

Even a ten year old could gather the necessary information to make a simple pipe-bomb. Just by: doing some research in the local library; listening in physics and chemistry class; gathering a few fireworks and disassembling it. Adding up this information can lead to BOMB (without internet).

P.S.: What are they going to do? Ban libraries, schools and fireworks?

[tmp]

When I was 9 years old, mid 60s, I made my 1st attempt at making BP, and
ended up with a moderately burning powder but not even close to the instant
"poof" I get with my powder now. Understand, I didn't know about the
chemistry or mechanics involved in making BP but I found out where to get
the ingredients by looking around. I also knew how to weigh things although
grinding was a bitch because I didn't have a ball mill or a mortar and pestle
then. I used one of those old postal scales for weights and glass jars on a
brick for grinding.

The lesson here, is that I found the knowledge in encyclopaedias at the local
library which was a short walk. We used to have Enoch-Pratt libraries all
over the place back then. Sadly, several of them have closed. Back then,
the Read's Drugstore(now Rite-Aid) had the saltpeter and flowers of sulphur
sitting openly on the shelf. There was no age check or any other bullshit to
put up with. All that mattered was that I was a paying customer.

And now, they want to outlaw knowledge ! NBK once advised me to get PGP.
One of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given. I advise others to do
the same because encryption may end up being the only way to share
information without Big Brother's snooping.

I'm looking around for web hosts to rent for faster uploading at a reasonable
cost. The next step would be encryption of the FTP data to at least slow up
the assholes.

I'm willing to do my part, whatever that may be, to thwart the fuckers !
All comments, tips, criticisms, etc. are welcome ! Let's burn them !

BTW, does anyone know about the full scope of the laws as related to ISPs ?

[festergrump]

What are they going to do? Ban libraries, schools and fireworks?

I hope you're being facetious and I just missed the tone. :)

Not entire libraries, but certain books... definitely. Just like they've been rewriting our history books for generations, now, to reflect a more politically correct (commie) version of everything.

Our schools are indoctrination stations where they pump our children full of nothing but socialist propaganda and drivel, teaching them to even turn in their own parents for the most minor infractions of the law.

As for the fireworks... well... :mad: Last year they legalized certain kinds in Georgia. This year they banned them "due to drought" and imposed a severe fine if you were caught using even a sparkler. With the revenue they generated from it, I highly doubt they'll ever lift the ban. We civilians certainly cannot be trusted to use our better judgement. (Little Jimmy might get ahold of some of his dad's firecrackers and light them in his mouth, therefore nobody may have them).

[hatal]

I hope you're being facetious and I just missed the tone. :)


Just slightly facetious :D But only until I get reduced (sorry, reeducated) to a humorless, mindless drone. It happens every day...

[209]

I have seeing it more and more were I am. The first time I saw torrents for books on explosives that were scanned onto the web I went what the hell!?! They actually have open books on explosives!

Most chemicals that are ingredients in energetic materials are pretty well gone were I am. Solvents like MEK and Acetone are now kept behind the counter and fuels like magnesium fire starters are long gone from ordinery camping stores. I go across to town now to the old hardware store were old men sit around and spit tobacco juice into bean cans and talk about the old days :) Stores like this still have much of the chemicals required. Ask the stoner employee at sport check if he has hexamine fuel tablets :rolleyes:.

As for information, I can't get enough. I may as well use this site for my homepage for amount of time spent viewing it :). Would it make sense for a combined effort to put togeather the RogueSci downloadable PDF? Of course massive amounts of information are exchanged here every month so we could have like a RogueSci emailable news paper:cool:.

[Gammaray1981]

Is the implication here that the entire EU is going to do a China, and prevent access to Roguesci, Totse (not that it's all that good, but it's the principle), and similar? Or is it just that anything of the kind based in Europe will be shut down, and this place remains unaffected due to geographical location?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

No, that's the point! The ban would affect the information; not the origin or location of origin.

Regardless what your political bent you can see this working well today. This was implemented in Germany with the de-NAZIfcation laws. Draw a swastika go to jail, etc.

[Rbick]

Check out this flash video (http://www.fat-pie.com/thechildthatsmeltfunny.htm), posted by Shalashaksa in the 182kg blast thread. It hits on this point exactly.

Yeah Totse is gay. Maybe if they didn't accociate porn, anarchy, and petty crime with energetic materials, we wouldn't have such a problem. I love how at the end of all their directions they have "then light the fuse and run like hell!". Most of the instructions are ridiculous and wouldn't work anyway. And the grammar... I don't even want to go there. They pretty much take immaturity to the extreme, and mix it with dangerous materials. Its like giving a 5 year old a loaded gun. They don't even know what anarchy means. Anarchy was originally founded on having no government because people were expected to do what was right for others. That doesn't even look good on paper, but whatever. Point is that k3Wlz are making it easier for Big Brother to make cases against those who are responsible (being us at RS).

Its sad watching our society and government fall apart. When the shit hits the fan, I'll be fighting for the side to re-enstate the constitution the way it was suppose to be, and was up until recently (the last 50 years or so). Just when you think "How could the situation get any worse?", they come out with stupid laws like this...

[sbovisjb1]

This whole mess just saddens me. Why can't people just let people be? People who are properly informed won't become silly and suppose and bunch of superstitions. Of course the government doesn't want this as they somehow want to exert control. I'm not saying that I'm a conspiracy theorist, but considering human nature, when a man in power just discovers that people are too interested in their "Bread and Circuses" and don't care whats happening in the world, they can get away with a lot. 100 years ago, women fought for the right to vote and now barely anyone turns out! This is why you get retards such as George Bush who slip through the cracks.

Check out this flash video, posted by Shalashaksa in the 182kg blast thread. It hits on this point exactly.

Completely off topic, I love David Firths animations. Salad Fingers made him known to me, but his wit is extremely delicious.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

NEVER forget that BOTH the right and the left implement the "Nanny State" mentality. Hillary and Bush are BOTH screaming assholes when it comes to individual's freedoms. Never assume that any political party will hold it's word.

The big lie is that the parties are greatly differing in what they implement.....take moment and think of each and what they do legislatively to limit the rights of the average citizen.

[nbk2000]

A century ago voting actually might have made a difference.

Now, it's pointless.

[anonymous411]

NBK once advised me to get PGP.
One of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given. I advise others to do
the same because encryption may end up being the only way to share
information without Big Brother's snooping.


This would have been great advice a few years ago, but now the routers are compromised. As is the very backbone of the internet itself--PGP today is little more than a big red "notice me" flag. Granted, it might keep some garden-variety LEOs in the dark, but if you ever become of significant interest, you're fucked. The same goes for Tracfones and other "anonymous" devices of that ilk.

How did this happen? Various federal agencies offered talented researchers and scientists (who would never work directly for the state in a million years) a Faustian bargain they couldn't refuse. Generous promises of grant money and access to information tend to have that effect on people.

[nbk2000]

What do IP routers have to do with the information security of PGP?

If PGP has been cracked, surely someone/somewhere would have figured it out, or the Fed's would have slipped up and mentioned in court somewhere (they ARE state-employees, after all).

It doesn't help that they know that who everyone is and where they are, but that doesn't mean they have to know what's being said.

And by encouraging people to encrypt even routine messages, it further increases the load on any PGP cracking engines the NSA may have, further reducing the likelihood of them bothering with cracking yours. :)

[Corona]

Furious Pakistani book burning turns into internet censorship:
http://www.answers.com/topic/internet-censorship-in-pakistan




Picket, that is old news. They tried it (more than once), but it never worked.

Right now, they have given up.... there is no censorship of the internet in Pakistan. None that I can notice.

They tried jamming YouTube and Yahoo-Groups in India as well... didn't work.

Net censorship just doesn't work.

As I see it, "the authorities" (whoever they might be in whatever country) still have, what I call a 19th Century steampunk mentality. That movement of goods can be checked at some border crossing or airport.

In today's info world.... where designs on a computer or info about whatever, is more valuable than the product itself... such thinking is self-defeating.

I remember reading about this guy who said that when he landed in London, they asked him to turn on his computer... looking for porn (this was 10-15 years ago). They obviously hadn't figured out, you can download porn after you're in.

19th Century thinking.... nothing screams authority like a cop standing on a street corner with his thumb up his arse. False sense of security.

[sbovisjb1]

Remember that the United States does not own the Internet. Therefore the majority of the ISP's in the world cannot be compromised.

[nbk2000]

Virtually all top-domain name routers are located in the US. Without those...

http://slashdot.org/articles/05/11/16/1255212.shtml

And a graphic demonstrating US domination of internet traffic.

http://www.telegeography.com/ptc/images/traffic_map_05_lrg.gif

[sbovisjb1]

I'm surprised that Asia and Europe don't have them as they have much better internet connections than the United States.

[nbk2000]

The US created it, and we're keeping control of it.

Also, let's not confuse the percentage of consumers with high-speed connections with a nations total bandwidth capacity.

The US is FAR more geographically spread-out than any euro country, and most of asia, and is based on the TELCO system of massive backbones for transcontinental transmission, with low-bandwidth local branching.

[metallicash]

If this lovely law does come through and it succeeds, I imagine it won’t just be stopping websites that give instructions on how to make bombs. Hobbyist websites like model rocketry websites, could also be banned as they show methods of constructing rockets and making fuels, which, obviously, they will be used by ‘terrorists’ as cruise missiles or RPGs. When that has succeeded, next will be all the torrent websites and P2P networks to be blanked, so as to help prevent an economic collapse by people downloading ‘illegal content’.

I expect this law will go ahead, as all that is needed is for another bomb to go off, the powers that be will keep reminding everyone about it, as they currently do
An example: http://www.filecabi.net/video/propa34678.html
However I don't expect it to actually work, it may well succeed in blocking websites, but there are other ways of distributing digital information. In some ways this law could have some use, as it would help to get rid of some kewls on this site.

You could just go and setup your own VISP, as long as you keep it for personal use (as in don't provide the service to anyone else, even if you don't charge a fee!) then it can't be a business or an organisation. Although what I am not sure about is whether the business providing your VISP will block all of those websites as standard when the ban comes into place. They may hopefully just leave it up to the person who bought a VISP, they should really.
I could be completely wrong about the VISP idea, as I don't know a huge amount about it. I hope not, that would be considerably embarrassing.

[Jacks Complete]

Cor, I'll be breaking yet another law. Fuck me. No, sorry... Fuck THEM.

I obey laws that are just and right. Don't tell me what to think!

[Oss]

Pondering on this thread, perhaps as an alternative to archiving etc something like Freenet could be used? For files at least, as from what I looked at, a dynamic website doesn't work oh so well..
I'd bet someone here has come across something little more appropriate however.

For ref, Freenet is a decentralised P2P network.
Encrypted and anonymous 'file storage'. Overnet might be another possibility.

http://freenetproject.org

[HMHX2TU6]

If they do ban this type of material in the EU and somehow are able to enforce it, it will only force the people [whatever their intentions may be] to obtain this kind of information in manners that will only make the problem worse.

As far as having RogueSci archived I think it's a wonderful idea as long as it's feasible/ the moderators are willing to devote that kind of effort into such a project.

And metallicash I think has a good point- if they ban bomb making information, perhaps they might move to ban other kinds of information that might have militaristic applications.

Let's hope this all goes well.

[sbovisjb1]

I'm guessing not. I seem to vividly remember that the Nazis banned all rocketry clubs and forms of information on this guise.

[Big Mac]

Better to be an outlaw than a saint in a country run by criminals. When will people realize, you can't stop the flow of things simply because you make catchy laws in your shiney buildings?