Compare KClO3 and KMnO4

[Voodoo0744]

Between these two powerful oxidizers, which one is better for various uses?
Let's make a list of the pro's and con's, add your opinion please, all information is very helpful.

KCl03: It is easy for some to attain, however not many. Electrolysis and synthesis are options, but take very long, are usually considerably expensive, and usually have chlorine by-products and usually contain relatively small amounts of product. Buying it does not cost much, but you must be 21 and it's going to soon be illegalized in the USA (come on we all know it's going to happen, we might as well accept it) and is a watched chemical.

KMn04: Is cheap, around $30 american or less for 5 pounds, you don't have to be eighteen to buy, and as far as I know it is not watched. Home synthesis of KMn04 is very difficult for the amateur pyro or chemist and sounds pretty toxic.


Note: I'm told I'm a pessimist, and I'm very tired right now, I'll edit after awhile when I'm not so sleepy in case I have mistakes.

Thanks a lot for your info and opinions!:o And be sure to include your experiences with the two.

[Enkidu]

Remember: use an 'O' as the symbol for elemental oxygen and a '0' for the number zero. Thus, KMnO4 and KClO3 are correct, while KMn04 and KCl03 are not.

Also, I would think hard if I were you before you post a question like this one again. Coming to the board with some of your own information on the subject of the uses of these oxidizers may make others receive your question much more willingly.

[Voodoo0744]

Thanks, I still get those confused, the O's and the Zeros.
In my situation the prime uses would be unstable flash powder experiments and as an Oxy-donor in HE formulations.

[Cobalt.45]

What in the fuck are "unstable flash experiments", and why?:rolleyes: "Oxy-doner in HE formulations"??:eek:

You're heading straight for a Darwin Award, my chum.

[Voodoo0744]

Cobalt, unstable flash experiments include different types of high temp electronic and chemical ignitors, torpedos, and structural integrity tests for various types of containers that require violent, high temp burns, not detonations.

An "Oxy-Donor" could be many things, but in all of my messing with oxidizers, KClO3 has been the best at giving means to cause complete detonation in substances that are normally defligrants.

My intention here is to see what people think of KMnO4 on the flipside. Plus the forum is getting slower in the past week or two, I thought it might give people a means to give good opinions, not close-minded critisism.

[Cobalt.45]

An "Oxy-Donor" could be many things, but in all of my messing with oxidizers, KClO3 has been the best at giving means to cause complete detonation in substances that are normally defligrants.

OK, Nobel- Give me one example where you have achieved "complete detonation in substances that are normally defligrants"(sic) by "messing with" potassium chlorate.

[Voodoo0744]

Ten percent by weight KClO3 added to any double-based or single based (needs a little more) smokeless powder assists in complete detonation, usually these are very difficult to completely detonate even gelled in CH3NO2.

One example.

[nbk2000]

It's KClO(oh)3, not KCl0(zero)3.

Proper nomenclature is very important in the sciences.

It's also very important for anyone trying to do a search, as improper spellings make searches futile.

[Voodoo0744]

I get pissed off at myself because I typed it with a zero for long enough to make it a habit, I'm getting out of it though. I know it's important, I'll edit them if I still can.

[Lewis]

I recently acquired some potassium permanganate. I must say, I'm not impressed with the oxidizer. Firstly, anywhere water is involved, it becomes a complete nightmare to work with, staining any and all surfaces deep purple as well as posing a serious threat of spontaneous ignition.

While in theory it is a much more powerful oxidizer than potassium or sodium nitrate, it is more unstable, as well as unpredictable. Mixtures containing KNO3 tend to ignite more readily than KMnO4 ones. While I've found KNO3 will oxidize almost any fuel to some extent, permanganate seems somewhat incompatible with certain types like sucrose. I'm not sure why an organic compound like sugar would not be oxidized by KMnO4, and it's been the source of much confusion for me as of late.

Anyway, all things being equal, I would stay away from KMnO4 for any practical use.

[Cobalt.45]

KClO3 has been the best at giving means to cause complete detonation in substances that are normally defligrants.Substances like single-base smokeless powder, so 'KClO3 has been the best at giving means to cause complete detonation in single-base smokeless powder', is what you've stated.

Simply put, I disagree.
Cobalt, unstable flash experiments include -SNIP-There's a difference between "unstable" and "sensitive".

But in the larger scheme of things, what the hell- go for it. Tossing shit together to see what happens is a time honored way to get something to happen- one way or another.

I (incorrectly) read into your post that you had done origional research and were detonating previously un-detonateable compounds using KClO3.

Chlorate production is another matter that you can easily research. You will find that there's economy of scale involved, and the time invested is relative.

There's no reason to have any appreciable impurities. The quantities and quality achieved is dependant on the operator, equipment and technique.

As to KClO3 being "watched" or on lists, or hard to come by, not here, thankfully. The shit is literally everywhere I look for it. Soon to be illegal? Don't think so.

[reamio]

KY-brand Silk personal lubricant will actually start fire when dripped onto KMnO4, nothing useful given that pure glycerin is widely available, but entertaining nevertheless

When I was younger and inexperienced:p, I used to initiate KMnO4 with a drop of glycerin.
By insulating the glycerin in tissue paper of varying thickness, different time delays could be attained.

I never used KMnO4 as the "main" charge; however combining it with glycerin was a neat way to ignite my KNO3/sugar smoke bomb charges.

By rigging the glycerin soaked tissue in the lid of the container with an air gap to the KMnO4, a simple arming device was possible - just invert the container, and the KMnO4 dumps onto the tissue soaked with glycerin - ignition occurs shortly thereafter.

An interesting note: the glycerin appears to act as a catalyst and causes the KMnO4 to decompose. A single drop will cause any sized heap of KMnO4 to ignite and burn.

[NoltaiR]

I think I am rubbing off on everyone here!!! A thread posted asking for opinions (and a viable one at that) and it isn't until the 10th posting that someone actually replies with information. :P I am not condeming because I do the same.

And one extra note: I don't think "oxy-doner" is the best technical word you could have used.

Anyways, KClO3 (and KClO4) are personally my favorite oxidizers. As stated, they are getting harder to come by these days. I had 1kg of KClO4 that was sitting in my closet for quite a while and selling it was nearly impossible. I posted it twice on ebay and the listing was cancelled both times. A strain of luck came when a guy had noticed my posting and emailed me an offer of $65 for the kilo which I gladly accepted.

So not counting the fact that it is hard to acquire, it is extremely efficient. Burns extremely effectively and under the right conditions, detonation. Generally very little residual chemicals and tends to mix with just about anything that does not spontaneously react with chlorine.

KMnO4 also works well, but in my opinion not as effective for a given mass. The reason I suggest for this is that chlorine has an atomic mass of about 35.45amu as opposed to manganese with an atomic mass of 54.93amu.

Of coarse for this to be a plausible explanation, you would have to be considering KClO4 and KMnO4 because of the equal number of oxygen atoms.

[Voodoo0744]

Thanks all of you guys for your opinions, I'll take all of your advice very seriously and hopefully we'll keep having people post here for the same reasons. It seems in my view that KClO3 is considered to be an overall better oxidizer in the big picture as opposed to KMnO4. I have also noticed these characteristics in KClO3. I think I may still buy a thing of KMnO4 just for the hell of having another oxidizer around and the fun of being a pyro.

Anyhow, I really appreciate your informitive and well-written posts and I hope we keep getting them.:)

[W4RGASM]

Mixtures containing KNO3 tend to ignite more readily than KMnO4 ones.

You're kidding, right? I've always found KMnO4 to be far more sensitive and easier to ignite (whether I was trying to or not...) then KNO3. Case in point: Try KNO3/Al FP and compare to KMnO4/Al.

There must be something wrong with your supply, methinks. You mentioned moisture contamination issues; KMnO4 is highly deliquescent and won't work as well when it's clumped and hydrated. That may be your issue.

[robinhood1532]

Contrariwise, W4GASM, in my recent experience, reports filled with KMnO4 flash powder (3:2 ~ KMnO4:Al) and even a blend of KMnO4 and KNO3 flash (3:2:4 ~ KNO3:KMnO4:Al) failed to ignite from heavy visco on several occasions. However, my KNO3 flash powder has never failed. I will admit that the presence of sulfur in my KNO3 flash does tamper with the valid comparison of these two mixtures, as it is well known that the addition of sulfur to KMnO4 (a habit I have given up) does increase sensitivity.

[Lewis]

First off, although my permanganate is definitely not laboratory grade, moisture content is not the issue. Although from personal experience I can say that more caution must be taken with KMnO4 flash to prevent it from accidentally igniting, the stuff is strangely hesitant to burn when I want it to. (compared to a mixture with KNO3)

Perhaps KMnO4 has a higher melting point than KNO3?

[W4RGASM]

Perhaps it is. I don't use visco (difficult to obtain in my area) and e-det with a capacitor vaping a tungsten filament in the squib or salute, so maybe it just requires a higher temp/input energy to reliably ignite.

[carnivorous4pie]

I have had a fair bit of experience with both KClO4 and KMnO4. The Aluminium powder I used was Indian Dark flake 600mesh and with these 2 different mixtures one thing did become apparent..The KMnO4 (Air float) was stronger than the KClO4 (Fine powder) by a little bit (but still noticeable with the naked eye). However between these two KClO4 wins for safety and it also doesn't leave a purple mess around the test site. Although Potassium permangnate is alot cheaper the KClO4 is worth every cent for safety.

[Ethyl]

I can add my experience.

With KClO3 I never succeeded in making good flash powder (KClO3 I used was around 20-30 years old, and I did dry it in the oven before I used it). Mixed with Mg powder it didn't burn, mixed with Al powder it didn't burn (both metals were very fine but I don't know the exact mesh.) All were of analytical purity. With sulfur it did burn but only very slowly (and this mixture has no practical use as it is unstable and unpredictable). One thing it worked for me is sodium benzoate whistle mix (70 %KClO3, 30% C6H5COONa). I think it is very strange that KClO3 behaved like that. Did anyone have similar experiences with KClO3?

With KMnO4 I had better results. Mixed with sulfur and even coarse Al powder made by hand grinding Al rods and pipes it burned fast. With Al without sulfur it did burn if Al was fine enough. With magnesium even whitout sulfur it made excellent flash powder. Even with sulfur it could burn very fast if it was mixed well and in correct ratios. I didnt experiment much with other fuels.

So I can say that for me KMnO4 (even if it is much unsafer than KClO3) is a better choice. And I can find it easier. 10 g costs me around 1.5 dollars while KClO3 I had was obtained from school (I cant buy it)

[iostream333]

I primarily use KClO3 flash powder. Although I would prefer to use KClO4, simply due to safety concerns, I cannot viably obtain it, and am stuck using the chlorate. Initially I used a 7:3 (KClO3 : 600 mesh Indian dark flake) but have found that a 3:2 ratio actually seems more powerful, giving off a little thump in minute quantities.

I haven't had the opportunity to test KMnO4 flash, so I'm afraid I can't offer much comparatively.

[ChippedHammer]

No surprises that your 30yr old potassium chlorate didn't work, it slowly decomposes over time. Fresh potassium chlorate when mixed properly with aluminium or magnesium powder is damn strong flash powder. Although I have seen some flash made with KMnO4 and aluminium powder that would probably work as a HE primary (0.5g loose blew a hole in a aluminium can with report)

[Ethyl]

A little OT but did anyone try to use KMnO4 instead of KClO3 in cheddites? If yes how did it work?

[xXexplosivesXx]

I've made flash powder using KMnO4 (WTF? No subscripts on this forum?) and aluminum powder obtained by grinding aluminum ingots with an angle grinder, then ball milling the resulting (~100-200 mesh) powder with steel media for several hours to reduce it to a consistency that resembles water. It is by far the most powerful flash powder I have ever seen. One gram will produce a loud report when unconfined, and any quantity will produce an ear shattering bang when confined in even a single layer of paper.

As a test, a polumna made using approximately 20 grams of this flash powder was placed inside an aluminum toy car that measured roughly 10" long and 4" wide. Upon explosion, the expanding gases shattered the plastic windows into several pieces, and tore the frame into 3 pieces, sending the pieces flying outward into the trees.

Based on my limited use of KClO4 and KClO3 flash powders using the same ground aluminum, they are nowhere near as effective as KMnO4.

[Bert]

I've made flash powder using KMnO4 (WTF? No subscripts on this forum?) . Yes, subscripts are possible. KMNO4

Based on my limited use of KClO4 and KClO3 flash powders using the same ground aluminum, they are nowhere near as effective as KMnO4.
"Effective" includes the ability to store safety, IMHO. Due to reactivity, KMNO4 and Al mixtures can't be stored safely. Put a drop of water on a sample and see why. Yes, you can get this mix to go bang loudly and easily. No, it is NOT going to be a commercial fireworks mixture.

[xXexplosivesXx]

Good, the thought of a forum dealing chiefly in chemistry without subscripts was quite appalling.

Anyway, the definition of "effective" will vary depending on who you ask, though it would make sense that when one is discussing oxidizers, the "effectiveness" will be dependent on the compound's ability to oxidize a fuel, in which case Permanganates dominate Perchlorates and Chlorates.

Of course, the trade off is decreased stability, but even though I assume my Potassium Permanganate based compositions will ignite spontaneously at any given time, none such events have occurred, even when provoked. In my experience, if a drop of water is placed on my flash powder, it will become warm, but will not ignite, even if left to react for several hours. However, that is not to say the potential does not exist, so I do not store the composition for any longer than is required to transport it to the blast site.

I do agree that this composition should NOT be put in the hands of any idiot who wants to buy some commercial fireworks. More stable and nearly as effective oxidizers are available to firework companies for around the same price, and as such there is no reason to create additional risk.

[Lewis]

So, the million dollar question is, should I invest some cold hard cash in permanganate?

I've used it before, but I only just started making good Al powder. My old seller has since stopped, but gave me the number of a well equipment supplier. The smallest quantity they'll sell me is 15 pounds. :eek: For 90 bucks.

It seems like a good opportunity to stock up, but is it REALLY worth it?

[ChippedHammer]

No, god knows what you would do with it all.

Better off getting chlorate or perchlorate or investing in a cell.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Simply from a personal perspective: I agree completely. A cell manufacturing mechanism is perhaps the best thing to come along in maintaining the source for energetic materials. chlorates, etc have been used for so long that there is a plethora of material written about them (most of the in depth stuff is not readily available in English however).

WWI designs & compositions as well as commercial blasting indicates that chlorates, while certainly NOT as safe as blasting agents, are worthy of examination as opposed to an oxidizer that is just not appropriate for energetic applications. Military & commercial firms had access to permanganates just as they did chlorates & the later were the choice.

To actually be able to manufacture same with home tools & techniques are worth the same investment of capital as a large supply of permanganates....If it were MY money, that's the way I would go.

[Lewis]

Fair enough, it seems like a shitty deal to me, too. I thought bulk chemicals were supposed to be cheap!

Still, the offer is tempting because I simply cannot find anywhere else that sells permanganate. I've run a chlorate cell on numerous occasions, but generally the double-replacement reaction with KCl is where I have trouble, as I've yet to find a decent source of the salt.

Using permanganate in various applications has some obvious advantages due to its extreme reactivity, but some even more blaring disadvantages (safety).

It's sort of a toss up at this point, because my engineering skills are humble at best, and my electrolytic cells have sort of sucked in the past. :o

[Bert]

I've run a chlorate cell on numerous occasions, but generally the double-replacement reaction with KCl is where I have trouble, as I've yet to find a decent source of the salt.

KCl is sold as "Sodium free" water softener salt at grocery stores and hardware stores. 50 lb. for about US $7.00 in my area. Once you have KCl, just run your cell with it instead of NaCl.

[Bacon46]

That $90.00 will build you a chlorate cell that will produce kilo after kilo of KClO3. If you are having trouble in with the metathesis reaction start with KCl instead of NaCl, then you just harvest the KClO3 directly from the cell, rinse and re-crystallize.

I would spend the first $35.00 of that $90.00 on a MMO coated Ti anode. Another $40.00 will buy you a brand new 5VDC/40amp power supply. $8.00 will get you a 40lb bag of KCl at your local home improvement store. The last$7.00 will get you two gallons of gas to get to the store, as long as you don't wait too long.:mad:

Check out the sodium chlorate production thread if you want to know where to get the power supply and anode. The information has been posted recently so you won’t have to search the entire thread.

[Lewis]

I looked all around today. No places sell sodium free softener salt! I guess there's no health nuts in my city.

Just as a refresher, if we do electrolysis with NaCl and then do the metathesis, do we need to boil the finished electrolyte first?

[Happy Hindu]

Lewis, Try looking in agricultural areas for KCl, it is sold as a horse supplement.

Boiling the electrolyte just decomposes the sodium hypochlorite into chlorate and chloride,
it will just increase your yeild.

[Bacon46]

Just as a refresher, if we do electrolysis with NaCl and then do the metathesis, do we need to boil the finished electrolyte first?

Yes, you want to boil the NaClO3 electrolyte for approximately 15 minutes to destroy the hypochlorite before you react it with the saturated KCL solution.

Here is a link to the sodium chlorate thread. (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=822)

[dhemor_]

In my experience, chlorates have been notably more sensitive to friction than any KMnO4 based mixture.. I did a test flash powders identical in ratio of oxidiser, aluminium, and sulphur with KClO3 and KMnO4, and the KClO3 blew upon dragging a hammer accross it without very much force applied.
When this was done to KMnO4, nothing happened...

[tranquillity]

I have found with chlorates and my (shitty) Al powder I cannot get a flash composition to reliably ignite. It will work with ~10g batches after a lot of coaxing but thats not really useful. On the other hand permangantate flash using the same Al works brilliantly.

Both were 70/30 ratios and it is not a problem with my home made chlorate as chlorate/sugar mixes burn easily with a beautiful purple jet of flame.

[dhemor_]

Adding a bit of sulphur to the KClO3/Al mix will lower the burning temperature.. I've never gotten to use KClO3 in a proper flash mixture (didn't have access to fine mesh aluminium when I had the KClO3), but I'm not sure if it's worth it. THe sensitivity is something I'm not keen on having to worry about.

[ChippedHammer]

In my experience, chlorates have been notably more sensitive to friction than any KMnO4 based mixture.. I did a test flash powders identical in ratio of oxidiser, aluminium, and sulphur with KClO3 and KMnO4, and the KClO3 blew upon dragging a hammer accross it without very much force applied.
When this was done to KMnO4, nothing happened...

Only because you added sulphur to your chlorate mix. In my limited chlorate flash adventures I found that a ratio of 7 KClO3 to 3 Al (Indian flake) resulted in a very potent flash powder that in my limited opinion exceeded perchlorate based compositions (also 7:3) in power and noise.

Adding sulphur greatly increased the sensitivity to a point where I didn't feel safe storing it for any great period of time. The mixture without any sulphur I would hazard to being more sensitive than perchlorate mixtures only due to the nature of the oxidizer. I couldn't detect any difference between it and perchlorate based compositions, both passed a hammer drop test of 40cm.

I have no intention of playing with KMnO4 mixes so I cannot comment on those.

[Cobalt.45]

KMnO4 is another "footnote" chemical, IMO. It does nothing better but has more problems associated w/use than KClO3 or KClO4. I especially despise the purple-dye effect if it comes into contact w/moisture.

KClO3 has gotten a bad rep over the years, I believe mainly due to its sensitivity when used w/sulfur. Otherwise, it still has legit uses (again, IMO) and is easier to synth at home.

If not for the fact that KMnO4 can be purchased OTC, few would be interested in its use. Yes, it does crutch sub-par aluminum powders when used as flash. But this points to a problem w/the Al, not with KCl-type oxidizers.

[dhemor_]

That's true, sulphur and chlorates do not mix. I presume that his aluminium powder wasn't fine enough..
Mind, I've never found that KMnO4 gave me trouble.. Yeah, the purple dye coming up randomly is very annoying.. I think it's easier to buy in bulk too, and has a great variety of uses in pyro and organic chemistry.
KClO3 has the definite advantage of being made at home, but I've never really heard of it being used in anything apart from pyro.

[Cobalt.45]

Professionals in pyro never uses KMnO4. Amateurs tend to use it when they first start out and can get nothing better, then only for flash. I've never heard of a potassium permanganate-based star comp, for instance (but I'll wager there's one out there somewhere:rolleyes:). Aside from flash powder, I can only recall its use as a rocket propellant component and IIRC, something else the Navy did.

If there were ANY advantages in using it, the Chinese would be. They don't AFIK.

Of course it is invaluable for unstable flash powder experiments and as an Oxy-donor in HE formulations! ROFLMFAO

[Alexires]

Adding a bit of sulphur to the KClO3/Al mix will lower the burning temperature.

And the amount of working limbs you possess. What a stupid thing to say. Sulphur should never be added to a chlorate mixture, or any mixture that may have even the smallest amount of chlorate in it. As taken from Wouter's Practical Pyrotechnic Page. (http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/safety_EN.html) The sulfur reacts with water and air to form trace amounts of sulfuric acid. This will react with chlorates to form chlorine dioxide, a yellow explosive gas that will ignite most flammable materials upon contact.

[Cobalt.45]

Originally Posted by dhemor
"Adding a bit of sulphur to the KClO3/Al mix will lower the burning temperature."

It might lower the ignition temperature, but the temperature achieved by the burning composition would be on a par w/each other if not slightly higher.

Alexires is absolutely correct in cautioning against using S with KClO3 in pyro comps. There are comps published (most w/explicit warnings/cautions) but those are antiquated compositions. It is not worth any supposed benefit and carries w/it all the pitfalls. Very bad juju.

Save the sulfur for use in making some good black powder:).