Respirators - which types are best?

[wymanthescienceman]

Hi, I was hoping to get some information about the types of respirators are the best when working with chemicals. I've done a search of the forum and didn't really find anything regarding things like respirators and thought it would be a good thread to start about safety and the like.

I was thinking of distilling some acids in the future and wanted to get a decent respirator that will handle organic vapors and acid fumes along with NO2. I would like to have one around just in case a flask was to break, I would have something to save me from gassing myself.

I've done a bit of searching trying to find out what the benefits are for each type and found out that I most likely want at minimum a full facepiece mask, I just don't know what a good brand would be, one where filters aren't really expensive and are easy to get.

So I was wondering what types any of you guys use and the cost of them. Does anybody know of a good mask that isn't too expensive?

[nbk2000]

For a full-face, you can expect to pay a minimum of $100, plus $15-$30 per filter, though filters will last a long time if you're not actually breathing through them and keep the mask in an air-tight container.

SCOTT (http://www.scotthealthsafety.com/airpur.htm) and MSA (http://www.msanorthamerica.com/catalog/catalog500013.html) are both excellent brands.

I've got one these manufacturers masks (not getting specific), it's worth about $200 (though I never pay retail :)), and it's worth every penny. Filters cost an arm and a leg, but for what's intended for, and as rarely as I'd be using it for that purpose, and as fatal as a fucked up cheap filter would be...what's money?

Be cheap with your toilet paper, not with things intended to save your life or health. Spend the money to get top-quality equipment.

If, instead of actually wearing a full-face during the process (which is really the best thing to do) you actually intend it for ONLY escaping from the room, you can save yourself a LOT of money by buying something like this escape mouthpiece (http://www.northsafety.com/TriggerWorkflow.aspx?WorkflowModuleGUID=a3c3bf34-f500-45aa-a73f-13a246669a21&Alias=NSUS&SB_ContentItemGuid=b55fb755-d4a7-40dc-8e76-f21a2d582782&KeepSession=True&ReuseToken=True&Tags:PC%20Tags:PC_ItemGuid=04cdb75e-b265-40ba-bb31-e0609ef49bf4), which is under $20.

Wearing a SCUBA mask (like for diving) during the process, and having one of these around your neck, would serve you well enough to protect your eyes and lungs (if not your face) in case of an exploding flask.

Oh, and quality glassware that's carefully checked before use greatly decreases such risks, and so does enclosing the flask in a heavy wood box to contain any acid splash.

[TreverSlyFox]

How appropriate would a Military Gas Mask be with NBC filters?

If they would do the job you can buy them brand new for $30 or so. I just bought 2 New un-issued Israeli Military M-15 Gas Masks with 2 NATO 40mm NBC Filters each for $29.95 apiece. The military masks have bigger eye pieces, drinking tubes and a better voice amplifier then the civilian model.

I've also found additional sealed NATO 40mm NBC filters for $9.95 each instead of the normal $20-$25 range on the web.

[nbk2000]

Bad news, trevor...those jew gasmasks are very likely to be defective. Why else would the jews get rid of them?

The VAST majority of masks exported by the jews are defective or expired, along with a lot of the surplus filters.

You probably won't notice the difference with OC or chlorine, because of the high thresholds of action compared to the truly lethal stuff like OPA's, but they are defective in letting through a higher percentage of agent than they should.

ALL masks and filters have a shelf-life, as the rubber deteriorates in the mask and the filters become saturated by air diffusing in past the seals, or the neutralizing chemicals break down.

If you need a mask, it's your LIFE on the line. Buy brand-new from American or western european suppliers.

[wymanthescienceman]

Wow, I wasnt expecting them to be that much, but I guess when your life is on the line its best to have something on hand. What I really wanted one for is pretty much what the escape mouthpiece is for, to be able to quickly escape when something goes awry.

I wasn't really planning on having it ON the whole time, just by my side, as the glassware I was planning on using is all ground glass and teflon joints, no worry for leaks unless breakage occurs. For one it would probably use up the filter faster and that would get expensive.

But then again I would probably need one anyway for when I had to clean it up or get something out of the room, put a fire out, etc. I think I might just save up a few more bucks and get a full facepiece mask, but get a mouthpiece for now until I can afford one.

One quick OT question:

I recently purchased a few RBF's and was wondering if they would be OK to put under vacuum, higher than 29". They are Pyrex and ChemGlass brands, but a couple of the 2000ml Pyrex ones have tiny bubbles in the glass, there aren't any cracks or stars or anything, just the tiny bubbles. They are used, probably pretty old but in otherwise great shape, clean and clear. Should I just risk it and put them under vacuum to test them? Like vacuum distill water or something if I find they hold up to just the vacuum?

[nbk2000]

A mask, to be effective, either needs to be on your face (safest) or around your neck. Having it in a pouch on your hip or on the table isn't going to help you a bit.

Regarding glassware, pulling a vacuum is the only way to be sure.

All glassware has tiny air-bubbles in them somewhere. As long as the bubbles are tiny and do NOT connect to either surface of the glass, then they're usually OK.

[LibertyOrDeath]

I have the M95 by Micronel Safety. (Looking at NBK's link, I now see the same mask is offered by Scott, so I suppose Scott bought out Micronel.) It's a fine mask -- tight-fitting, yet comfortable.

I didn't buy my mask for explosives manufacture but simply because I think every home arsenal needs a gas mask and some spare filters. If your home is ever raided and you want to make a stand, it's important to be aware that the pigs WILL gas you. A mask is essential for such a scenario. (Not that I expect to be raided, but this country IS becoming a police state....)

Here are some more things to consider:

(1) If you wear glasses and aren't using contact lenses, you'll need to get a prescription lens insert for the mask and have an optician make lenses for it. Ordinary glasses can't be worn with a gas mask that covers only your face, since the seal will be broken in the temple area.

(2) If you have a beard, that will likely affect the gas mask's seal.

(3) To check the seal of the mask, put it on without a filter attached and then put your hand over the open intake that the filter would normally screw into. Then try to breath. You should feel the mask get pulled inward by the suction.

(4) I'm not sure about this -- maybe NBK or someone else who knows more than I do can fill us in -- but once the mask has been exposed to enough vapors during a nitration or whatever, it may be too compromised to be relied upon safely in the future. I know that my mask can turn just about any chemical warfare agent, but I honestly don't know its capabilities with respect to NO2 and so forth.

[nbk2000]

Filter can be safely used until saturation IF the gas (like chlorine) has sufficient warning properties (odor/eye irritation) to warn of filter breakthrough well below the injury threshold.

NOx is not one of these gases.

You can use another chemical that does have adequate warning at a level below that of the insidious chemical, spray that about, and that will warn of filter breakthrough.

Something like amyl acetate, or a malodorant (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6242489.html) like a mercaptan, that is essentially harmless, but definitely noticeable.

(While using Google to look for malodorants, I saw someone referred to them as 'Illuminati-strength stink bombs'. :D)

[wymanthescienceman]

I'll keep that in mind NBK, make sure I either have it on or at least around my neck when working with anything thats potentially dangerous. The main thing I was worried about were NOx fumes and maybe chlorine. I'm going to be as safe as possible and I hope it will never happen, I never want to see ugly brown gas.

I was actually looking at the mask you suggested Liberty, made by Scott. The price was around $155 which isn't so bad so I may get that or the M98.

[megalomania]

The company where I used to work only a few months ago uses a very large number of full face respirators. The people who wear them are generally idiots, so they sustain all manner of abuse besides the intended abuse they are purchased for. We go through about 50 full face respirators a week. Yes, that’s a lot, and I got to know and love our brand. About 250 workers use the full face, and everyone gets a half face if they need to use it or not just in case.

When you burn through that many respirators, you don’t get expensive ones, you get cheap, cheap, dirt cheap ones. My company buys only the cheapest, and it shows. Originally we were using a 3M model and filters, but there is a huge class action law suit brought against my parent company and 3M because the dust filters contain asbestos. Apparently asbestos is bad for you when you breathe through it 8 hours a day for 20 years.

Along came AO Safety and offered to replace all of the employees current full face and half face free of charge. Fit testing was done by AO people, the company enforced its strict clean shaven policy, they even stocked the nurses station with shaving and razors. A good seal can only be maintained with smooth skin, even stubble can cause a mask to not seal properly. AO used the full hoods with smoke and sweet odorants. Anybody caught with an old 3M respirator after the change would be punished!

By far the most common problem was the rubber washer diaphrams inside the filter ports would pop out so the filter would not insert properly, or the exhalation one way port rubber diaphragm would fall out, thus air can bypass the filter. The next most common problem is the seal around the clear eyepiece would fail causing the glass to fall out (the windshield if you will). These cannot be repaired, they are permanently damaged.

Somehow the AO Safety respirators were even worse than the 3M. Lets compare price: The bulk rate employees paid for these was about $80 for the 3M and $65 for the AO Safety. No, the employees don’t pay for these if the have a damaged one, only if they do something stupid. No, you can’t get that price retail unless you buy 50 new ones a week, and go through 15 cases of filters.

Initially we had a bad batch of AO Safety full face. The models we used have a crank on the back that tightens the straps. It stripped very easily. Many of the glass windshields popped out of these with very little use. We were replacing a few hundred a week.

I love truth in the company. You never hear it from the top, but I excel in piecing fact from rumor and tracking down sources. AO Safety was hard pressed to meet their demand because of some asian flu going around in China, the bird flu I think is popular over there. Our batch was supposed to go to them. Yes, that’s right, these low quality, actually defective, full face were destined for a crappy third world country to be gotton rid of. The company my father works for sells it defective products to Mexico. This is the American way!

Before the company switched they did try out some other models. They tried getting repair parts for the masks, it didn’t work. They tried some better brands (more expensive) and they just cost too much. They decided to get the cheapest possible because the employees would just destroy them anyway.

I have used these, and I have used some of the high quality masks, actually quitea few in my day. I can tell you from experience that you get what you pay for. A more expensive mask will fit better, it will be more comfortable to wear, it will last longer, and most important of all, it will keep you safer. The same goes for filters. For gods sake get the right KIND of filter for the chemicals you expect to be exposed to. A dust filter will not stop any chemical agent. I can't tell you how many employees working in one of our hazardous chemical areas were still using dust filters. Respirators also do not protect you in a low oxygen environment! You need a forced air module, or breathable air line to help in that kind of environment.

Speaking of forced air, this is not necessarily a cheaper route, but it can save on the cost of filters. Many advanced models of respirators can be connected to air compressors that deliver fresh air at regulated breathing pressures. The air source comes from someplace clean, so you can disregard filters entirely. It might even be possible to cheap out and use a painters hood with forced air, I have seen these, but I don’t remember if they are inexpensive.

[nbk2000]

I've seen supplied-air hoods that are nothing more than a face piece of clear acetate with a TYVEK hood, intended for painters. Pretty cheap, though how durable could it possibly be?

A local electronics surplus store (ran by arabs :rolleyes: ) has a case of full-body vinyl suits with supplied air hoses, that were used by workers in the nuclear-reactor plants.

Only $12 for a set. :)

That'd be the shit to have for working with anything NBC, fuck a gas-mask!