German terror plot foiled, 1500 pounds of peroxide seized

[megalomania]

The eyes of the world are upon Germany today as a terrorist plot has been foiled. I should say alleged terrorist plot because as far as I know the 3 Islamic men who were arrested didn’t actually do anything.

This plot is of interest because the 3 Islamic terrorists (alleged) allegedly possessed 1500 gallons (so says NPR) of hydrogen peroxide. We all know what they could make with that.

To get to the facts of any news story involving explosives I have to read at least a dozen different journalists accounts because their facts tend to vary wildly on certain points. A consensus is required to get closer to the truth. Close is all we can expect from the media; any incident involving explosives will have the parties involved tried, convicted, and crucified by the press guilty or not. Just ask Richard Jewell.

My first thought at hearing this on the news this morning is that Germany has an excuse to crack down now. This snippet from the New York Times rather confirmed this initial supposition:


For months, Germany has been warning of a likely terrorist attack, and the government has been contemplating tightening surveillance and enforcement tactics that are now looser than elsewhere in Europe, in part because of Germany’s troubled 20th-century history.


Troubled history… That’s a bit of an understatement.

The NY Times says the suspects had 1500 pounds of peroxide, and quoted fedgov officials saying this could make an explosive equivalent to 1200 pounds of TNT. I wonder if most people can conceive what kind of explosion a pound of TNT would make… that’s another subject for another day.

I will make an educated assumption that the peroxide the Islamic terror suspects used was of the 30% variety. Several news sources have pictures of the containers and they look like industrial reagents, not a consumer product. A second NY Times story said the peroxide was 35%.


While 35 percent hydrogen peroxide solution is readily available for purchase, even over the Internet, “I think 1,500 pounds would draw someone’s attention pretty quick,” Mr. Gulledge said. (Gulledge is manager of the hydrogen peroxide panel at the American Chemistry Council)
The federal Department of Transportation regulates solutions containing 8 percent or more hydrogen peroxide by weight as hazardous materials.


That’s great for the federal department of transportation, but this is Germany we are talking about, so unless WWII era restrictions are a lot farther reaching than I thought, the US fedgov’s jurisdiction does not extend that far. More’s the pity :)

The BBC reports the suspects were under surveillance, and the peroxide was switched with a safer dilute solution:


The authorities were able to replace the hydrogen peroxide with a weaker, less dangerous solution but were still worried about the risk.


Let this be a lessen to ye. I seem to recall a recent incident where chemicals were substituted with inert substitute by the fedgov. If you are up to no good test your recently delivered chemicals NOW. If they do not react as intended, or if they are weakened, you had best grab whatever possessions and evidence you can in 60 seconds, set your lair on fire, and disappear to your safe house. The fedgov is a comin!

Assuming an average density of 8 pounds per gallon, 1500 pounds divided by twelve containers (12 is the number of containers cited in several news sources) would be a little over 15 gallons. That seems about right judging from the pictures of the chemical containers.

Basically the fedgov (and the modern Gestapo in Deutschland) knew about the terrorists, their plans, everything. Since there was no news about any acetone or acid being reported we can surmise their plot was far from completion. This means the fedgov and Gestapo specifically chose to wait until just before the 9/11 anniversary to act. A political motive? Will Germany support the Iraq war now? I see they pledged to up their financial commitment to Afghanistan by $25 million.

There was no danger of an actual terrorist attack, the fedgov was well on top of this cell. To present to the public some heroic save just on the eve of 9/11 sounds like classic sheeple manipulation to me. I would not be surprised if they said the lead agent was Jack Bauer…

What about the feasibility of actually making acetone peroxide with 1500 pounds of 35% peroxide? This strikes me as a little, oh I don’t know, suicidal. Unless they planned to make hundreds of small batches for backpack bombs and suicide vests, a single gigantic explosive consisting of thousands of pounds of AP would be stupendously dangerous. The media reports made the assumption the terrorists would make a single gigantic bomb. I would have to refute that on the grounds of practicality. Even commercial manufacturers of far more stable primary explosives would never make a single gigantic batch.

I actually think the fedgov would allow a group of ragheads to make a giant bomb out of AP. When it accidentally detonates and kills them all it would save on precious bunk space in gitmo. Do you get the virgins if you accidentally kill yourself and your cohorts, or do you have to at least take out a few of the great Satans?

[fiknet]

What about the feasibility of actually making acetone peroxide with 1500 pounds of 35% peroxide? This strikes me as a little, oh I don’t know, suicidal.

When I first read about it I thought they may be trying to hint to the viewers about one of the media's new scare toys, the H2O2 and Flour bomb, because when you look at it from a layman's point of view these easy bombs that take 15 seconds from the internet aren't as easy as they media has been telling us, AP actually takes some time and persistence to hunt down the chems, work out correct ratios for yield, slowly mix chems under controlled temperature, leave for 24 hours, filter and then there is the long drying time, before I found good internet resources for explosives I literally thought that a powerful explosive could be made by mixing something like bleach with another cleaning product then bada boom! you have sum sweet c4 plastik,
So for the average viewer who knows nothing about explosives instead of the terrorist having to mix all these dangerous chemicals he bought from pool and hardware stores all he has to do drop a bag of flour in some peroxide and he is set ( never mind the problem of booster/detonator and that we know that flour is a piss poor fuel).

[hatal]

One interesting point of the story is, that the terrorist where (native) Germans. Atleast 2 out of the three. Two guys were german as lager-beer, but converted to islam. The third guy was also born in Germany but the parents where turks. Thats what I call, the enemy within... :)

[Brakkie]

I live in Holland and I saw the seizure on the news just after the raided the place. The media said that the peroxide together with acetone would provide an explosion equivalent to tnt. They also states that they were trying to make a similar bomb as used in London, which we all know was AP.

Right after I heard about the bust I began to check the internet for any other chemicals they got at the raid. I did not find anything else apart from the peroxide.

I noticed another very weird thing that was stated at the news report. They stated that the alledged terrorists where planning to detonate the bomb(s) at 9/11. After I did my calculations I noticed that it's near impossible to make a large ammount of AP in a 5 day period. Not even thinking about the high chance of them blowing themselves up in the proces. Our news states they had enough for 350 kg.

If we assume that they'd make it in 35 gram batches (which is already FAR above what I consider safe!) it would take them 10.000 batches. On the news it didn't look like the building was big enough to synthesize 10.000 batches at the same time so it would have taken them weeks or even months to get the ammount that they wanted. Which would mean they would never even be close to finished at 9/11.

What's the story about this? I'm beginning to think this is just another "razzia" from the police...

[Unsunghero]

I don't think the ragheads really cared about accidentally being killed by it. They probably were as stupid as any common person that looks up how to make a bomb on the internet. While you can do a lot with a 35 gram batch didn't the London bombers have 1-2 pounds of it each? Keep in mind this is the same group we saw 3 feet away from a mixture of oxygen/acetylene in the same bottle taking their time prepping it.

Maybe they weren't making AP, maybe they were making another peroxide, perhaps MEKP? Personally I've actually had problems getting MEKP to go off before being soaked into wood/metal without high heat. Sure, it wouldn't be practical to make a huge batch of MEKP, but maybe they had a good plan? It would be the perfect time to blow London and wherever that was in Germany to hell, and with that much AP or MEKP detonating at once. Another thing to consider is how many people do they stand to lose if they blow themselves up? 2? 3? I doubt they would have many on that project and they would have so much to gain if it was succesful.

I can only hope that they haven't bought quantities such as this in America and aren't planning something "special" for 9/11. That may sound paranoid, but that's what I would do.

[Match]

An article I read in the local paper claimed they were most likely going to use it as a booster ( read: oxidizer) for another explosive, that of which remained unamed.

[nbk2000]

Perhaps they were going to vacuum distill it to 90% and use it in conjunction with asymmetric-Hydrazine to make the elusively fearsome C-10? ;)

[Corona]

There are always 3 sides to a story... the cowboy's side... the injun's side... and the horse's side.

We have here our cowboys and our injuns.... I'm the only one who speaks "horsey".

Since our German/Nazi pals took Pakistan's name in vain, here is what our foreign office said:

Group not known in Pakistan

By Kim Barker September 6, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - The arrest of three terror suspects in Germany who allegedly were trained in Pakistan drew a quick response Wednesday in Islamabad.

"There is a tendency to make an immediate connection with Pakistan whether that connection exists or not or whether any evidence exists or not," said Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasneem Aslam.

Rahimullah Yusufzai, an editor for The News (Pakistan's second largest english language newspaper) in Peshawar and an expert on Islamic militant groups, said he had never heard of the group Islamic Jihad Union, which was mentioned by German authorities.
------------------

I never heard of this "group" before either.

Point, I'm trying to make is... the horse also sez, this story is full of holes. Bullshit upon bullshit upon bullshit makes a good story to scare the kiddies.

[hatal]

Old propaganda... oops.. I mean "news", repolished. Pakistan must be a real terrorist factory:). Not bad for US Anti-Terror ally :D

[Rbick]

1500 pounds of H2O2! WOW! The media is stupid, but maybe these "terrorists" are just as stupid. So think about it, stupid ignorant people reporting what stupid people did! This makes energetic materials look really bad.

I actually would like to see someone make 230kg of AP. The weight exerted on the column by the sheer mass of the explosive itself would probably set it off! I read somewhere that max of 100 lb/in can be put on AP. Or one of these idiots would probably have had a smoke break right next to their pile of drying AP. Maybe they were going to mix it with 230 kg of Al powder and some guar gum, making power gel. Or maybe they were going to pour it on people on the streets below, causing massive chemical burns :rolleyes:. Either way, their attempt at whatever they were trying to do was rediculous.

[robinhood1532]

Why do we assume that they were going to use it all at once? Yes, they are more than likely idiots who would do such a thing, but if they weren’t planning on using it all at once, isn’t there more potential for it? Isn’t there a limited effectiveness of one HUGE explosion?

If I had 1500 pounds of H2O2, I would make sure that I could do the most damage possible, which would mean several slightly smaller attacks, perhaps simultaneously, or consecutively? I think that if I were in their shoes, I would keep quite a bit for myself and sell off the rest to my jihad buddies, or even just give it away if I was really concerned with doing some damage.

I don’t know, maybe one monster explosion would be more effective, it would have to be set off in an extremely crowded place, not like a street corner, maybe some “Freedom Concert” where everyone is in close proximity.

EDIT: My apologies for my ignorance.

[Corona]

Why do we assume that they were going to use it all at once?



Because in the original story, the cops said they were planning to use it all at once to make a few big bombs.

They said it... we are not assuming anything.

As you can read below, they are implying it was not about thousands of small bombs, but a few a very big ones, and that the explosive would've been ready if the cops hadn't switched the peroxide.

------------------
Undercover agents using US intelligence followed and eavesdropped on the young men as they collected 750 kilos (1,650 pounds) of hydrogen peroxide and military detonators to be used in simultaneous suicide truck bomb attacks on American installations and meeting places
...............
Mixed correctly, the chemicals were capable of triggering explosions equivalent to 500 kilos of TNT. By contrast, the bombers in London carried no more than three to four kilos of explosive. The potential blast would have been bigger than the Madrid and London bombings combined.
...............
The chemicals were stored in three containers.
...............
The chemicals had been transferred from the holiday home in the Black Forest to a rented house on the borders of the state of Hesse. The chemicals were starting to deteriorate, the location was near US air bases, the detonators had been acquired: it looked as if the group was ready to strike.
------------------------------

[Unsunghero]

3 chemicals...:) definitely AP or MEKP.

These guys really don't seem too bright..it would be much more prudent to order from like 16 different sources to add up to your target amount. Buying it from one source seems kind of reckless in my opinion.

[nbk2000]

Most ragheads are stupid, so their impatience in acquiring everything in one go is self-explainitory.

And this could also be a false-flag operation being ran by the government itself, being a pretext for further freedom-rape laws.

One thing that seems very suspicious about the above article is the term 'military detonators'.

Is this a technical error by an idiot reporter, or a correct fact? If it's actually correct, then how the hell did ragheads in england BUY military detonators without the government giving the nod for it to go down?

[Unsunghero]

Well, I'm sure there are black market types in England, I know people who bought uzis and the like before the assault weapons ban was lifted (honestly I don't know anything about guns, don't know if they're legal now). Then again the people who sold it to them were crackheads from downtown.

Surely there are vendors such as this where they come from, in England etc? Maybe they stole them from a place that makes them? I'm sure there are quiet a few companies that make them, wouldn't take much research and no one would report a small number (3-5?) stolen from multiple plants..Then again we are talking about guys who ordered 1500 pounds of hydrogen peroxide from one source. I say a small number because they were supposedly just gonna make a few.

More than likely it was something that looked professional, with all kinds of wires and buttons (hehe), and the reporter's immediate thought was "MILITARY".

[Corona]

One thing that seems very suspicious about the above article is the term 'military detonators'.

Is this a technical error by an idiot reporter, or a correct fact? If it's actually correct, then how the hell did ragheads in england BUY military detonators without the government giving the nod for it to go down?




England? What does England have to do with the detonators?

As for "ragheads":

Fritz Martin Gelowicz, 28, Munich native, converted to Islam; active in radical Islamic circles in Ulm in Baden-Wuerttemburg state; mother a doctor; father owned a successful business; married; attends a technical college in Ulm.

Daniel Martin Schneider, 21, German national; recent convert to Islam; known for angering his neighbors in Saarbruecken by praying loudly every three hours.

Adem Yilmaz, 28, Turkish national; lived in Hesse state.


These guys were white natives.

Also note, "praying loudly every three hours". You aren't supposed to do that! :p If Germans knew enough about Islam, they would've known this behavior isn't normal and that he had gone kookoo and they might have locked him up and had his head examined.


a pretext for further freedom-rape laws.


Yup. They said they're going to spy on their own citizens now.

[nbk2000]

Doh!

My bad, I meant germany.

I'm just so used to hearing about this shit happening in england that I, in my tired state, used the wrong country.

Besides, I'll bet you they'll 'find' a connection to the UK somehow.

I know these guys are white traitors, but they're still ragheads, as anyone believing in that goat-herder religion is a raghead, regardless of race, and only retarded whites would convert to islam anyways, which explains the massive FAIL that was this 'plot'.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Undercover agents using US intelligence followed and eavesdropped on the young men as they collected 750 kilos (1,650 pounds) of hydrogen peroxide and military detonators to be used in


Out of curiosity could you please reference where you read the term "Military Detonators"? {As that may be key in this whole discussion.}
The purchasing of the chemicals per se' may be not what clicked but the individual who offered to procure the "military detonators" may have been instrumental in this investigation.

Chemicals may not be a decisive factor but when the "youths" decided to buy detonators, that may have set wheels in motion.

When rioting or hooliganism, or terror is engaged in the EU the perpetrators are correctly called "youths".

[Corona]

Out of curiosity could you please reference where you read the term "Military Detonators"?



I copied and pasted. I didn't write that swill.

If you want the webpage, I don't remember. Just write "german bomb detonator" in google news and pick the first few stories at random.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/9655582.html

Because the plotters apparently had access to military-grade detonators


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/germany.terrortip/

The detonators were types that can be used in a military device, which are difficult to obtain, more precise and can inflict more casualties than lower-grade detonators, according to a counterterrorism source in Frankfurt with knowledge of the plot.

"Military detonators" is gratuitously thrown in as is the name "Islamic Jihad Union" (a fake, unheard of name)... giving the story a bit more flesh, is all.

And notice:

Authorities said they had begun mixing a massive amount of explosive materials that could have resulted in a strong blast :p

[megalomania]

If they did have underground black market connections it stands to reason they could have obtained military explosives to go with their military detonators. It is quite possible their underground source was the fedgov all along, as tends to be the case when hiring a hitman in the US. A few blasting caps would have been harmful to no one, so it is easy to see the fedgov giving up some of those.

I foresee the usefulness of having some white ragheads be the puppets of the real ragheads. If a muslim looking fella even sniffs around chemicals in europe I bet he is singled out as a terrorist. As well he should. Get some decent white kids to gather the stuff and who would think otherwise? Germany has a long tradition of supporting chemistry, so I wonder if they have many restrictions on obtaining chemicals. These guys would have been better off stealing a pallet of chemicals from a factory, or hijacking a load. Of course they also would have been better off not getting photographed at a jihadi terror training camp and talking about their plans on the phone.

I can't help but think, with this being Germany and all, maybe they were going to dye everyones hair blond with the peroxide :)

[Corona]

Of course they also would have been better off not getting photographed at a jihadi terror training camp

They were "photographed" (are you sure)? How come no pics... ever... of any of these "jihadi camps" we are supposed to come across in Pakistan's tribal areas? :rolleyes: It's all made up drama, that's why. From the gunpowder... sorry... peroxide plot, to the name of the group nobody can verify. :p

Remember, remember the fifth of November,
The gunpowder, treason and plot,
I know of no reason why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.....

Damn good movie (V for Vendetta). Sorry for rambling a bit.

Anyway....

Over here, my brother asked for peroxide (it is great for getting rid of strange smells and prevents asthma)... guy asked, straight away, "whatchaneeditfor?"

That was because he was wearing shorts.

I wasn't wearing shorts and they didn't ask me anything. Just a small example.

I would like to remind everyone of this thread:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3846&highlight=pakistan

After much hoo haa it turned out to be bullshit (they admitted it because the media was too good at sniffing and was going to expose it anyway). The usual actor on stage? Peroxide in a tank... the bad boy of everyone's dreams.

Btw, I highly recommend this book:

http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1331458/618056/

Hydrogen Peroxide Medical Miracle

What's going on here? Peroxides are supposed to be bad for you. Free radicals and all that.
But now we hear that hydrogen peroxide is good for us.
I have been very skeptical about this one, but so many patients were asking my opinion about H202 that it was getting embarrassing to say, "I don't know." I didn't want to give up Monday Night Football to research H202, but there was just no way out of it. (The games were lousy anyway.)
I was astounded to find that excellent clinical research had been done on the medical uses of hydrogen peroxide as far back as 1914! (There goes my Monday Night Football - maybe Sunday afternoon, too.)
Doctor J.S. Haldone reported in 1919 that oxygen dissolved in the blood would probably be a good way to combat infection. (Remember that in those days infection was it. If you didn't get stomped to death by a horse, you would most likely die of infection. Cancer was not a scourge and cardiovascular disease had not been invented yet.)
Hydrogen peroxide will put extra oxygen in your blood. There's no doubt about that. But prevailing expert opinion is that it has no value. The red cells must transport oxygen for effective oxygen delivery, they tell us. But
this is manifestly untrue. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, for instance, where oxygen is forced into the blood under pressure, can be lifesaving in carbon monoxide poisoning, cyanide poisoning, and smoke Inhalation.
But pushing oxygen into the blood by using pressure is an expensive business. A hyperbaric oxygen unit costs about $100,000. Hydrogen peroxide costs pennies. So if you can get oxygen into the blood cheaply and safely, maybe cancer (which doesn't like oxygen), emphysema, AIDS, and many other terrible diseases can be treated effectively.
Intravenous hydrogen peroxide rapidly relieves allergic reactions, Influenza symptoms, and acute viral Infections. These effects are thought to be due to the oxidation of the various foreign substances in the blood.
Tumor cells, bacteria, and other unwanted foreign elements in the blood can usually be destroyed with hydrogen peroxide treatment. Peroxide has a definite destructive effect on tumors, and, in fact, cancer therapy may prove to be the most dramatic and useful place for peroxide therapy.
No one expects to live forever. But we would all like to have a George Burns finish. The prospect of finishing life in a nursing home after abandoning your tricycle in the mobile home park Is not appealing. Then comes the loss of control of vital functions - the ultimate humiliation. Is life supposed to be from tricycle to tricycle and diaper to diaper? You come into this world crying, but do you have to leave crying? I don't believe you do. And you won't either after you see the evidence.
Sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? Read on and
decide for yourself.
William Campbell Douglass, M.D.

[TreverSlyFox]

One of the reports I saw on ABC the day it happened said they were going to use it to make "Car Bombs" and that the Germans busted them because they were making preparations to "Move" the 1500 Lbs of H2O2.

I just find it hard to believe someone out there is dumb enough to even think about making that much AP. But hey ... without idiots, what would we do with all the Darwin Awards every year?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

If a muslim looking fella even sniffs around chemicals in europe I bet he is singled out

Certainly in the US as well.....Any "youths" attempting to buy a nitrate from a feed store in some small agricultural community would turn a few heads now-a-days. Old Bubba would be on the phone as quick as he could after they left.

The only thing I could imagine was that the peroxide was the difficult product to get. They may have had a source for the acetone and acid and wanted to spread the wealth to other cells. I agree that no one would cook up a few thousand pounds in singular attempts.

I've noticed how the media has been careful not to de-humanize the Islamic population the way they did during other conflicts. With the power of the media today, if we portrayed that population the way we did the Japanese there would be camps being built already.

[Corona]

The only thing I could imagine was that the peroxide was the difficult product to get.



Peroxide.. in 50% concentration... is an OTC product. :p

And damn cheap too. Around 20 Rupees a liter.

[Vitalis]

Unless they planned to make hundreds of small batches for backpack bombs and suicide vests, a single gigantic explosive consisting of thousands of pounds of AP would be stupendously dangerous.

Remember that the average person hearing about or reading these news reports have knowledge of explosives that is stupendously dangerous. They hear "people were trying to make explosives" and they automatically believe whatever nonsense is printed in the newspaper...

[Charles Owlen Picket]

IIRC H2O2 was also a rocket fuel. Maybe we have this whole thing wrong.... You can do quite a few things with it. That's not to say they were making rockets with little altimeters in them and shooting them in the park but perhaps there is more here than the usual TATP wonder-crap.

[Corona]

IIRC H2O2 was also a rocket fuel.


Only at greater than 80% concentration.... I think.

If it is more than 60%, it will set fire to anything flammable, like wood or cloth as it dries... again, I think.

Over 90%, it is very dangerous... I think, that is what sank the Kursk? Torpedo fuel went boom?

They use peroxide mono-propellant rockets all the time in the FX industry to make cars flip over in the movies, for example. Why peroxide? No smoke, that's why.

In Pakistan, they sell it OTC at 50%.

I think (sorry for the excessive use of "I think".. chem isn't my thing)... if you made AP (for example) with 50%, without diluting it first, you'll have a runaway on your hands?

[megalomania]

...if we portrayed that population the way we did the Japanese there would be camps being built already.

What do you call Guantanamo Bay? The camps are built, captives have been taken, the beatings will continue until morale improves!

The strength of peroxide the terrorists had was 35% according to the NY times article I quoted in the original post. You can see this if you look carefully at the pictures of the chemical containers on the media websites. I should say the concentration of peroxide was supposed to be 35%, but the fedgov did dilute it down.

[LibertyOrDeath]

And this could also be a false-flag operation being ran by the government itself, being a pretext for further freedom-rape laws.Many people scoff at this sort of thing, which is precisely why governments know they can get away with false-flag operations. They rely on the oh-so-"reasonable" people in the population who don't believe in government conspiracies.

Anyone who doesn't think governments plan and carry out such acts would be well advised to read the declassified memos regarding Operation Northwoods.

For those not familiar, back in the early 60s the US government was considering staging terrorist attacks against innocent people and then blaming them on Cuba in order to justify an invasion of Cuba. They were even considering actually sinking refugee ships in order to manipulate public opinion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Sound familiar? Reminds me a lot of Iraq's "WMDs" (aluminum tubes, Nigerian uranium, UAVs capable of carrying chemical weapons across the ocean, blah blah blah) and Iran's "super-duper-high-tech EFPs." It's all done to get the citizens in line. And those who are skeptical are given the usual labels: kooks, traitors, etc.

Of course the US doesn't have the only government that lies to its citizens. I don't see why Germany wouldn't pull a similar stunt.


One thing that seems very suspicious about the above article is the term 'military detonators'.

Is this a technical error by an idiot reporter, or a correct fact? If it's actually correct, then how the hell did ragheads in england BUY military detonators without the government giving the nod for it to go down?Not only that, but if the explosives they were attempting to make were peroxides -- and I can't think of anything else they'd be trying to do with all that H2O2 -- then why would they even need to acquire detonators?

[festergrump]

Not only that, but if the explosives they were attempting to make were peroxides -- and I can't think of anything else they'd be trying to do with all that H2O2 -- then why would they even need to acquire detonators?

Thats one of the things that makes me believe it is just a false flag operation. The media targets (sheeple) cannot be informed that peroxide based explosives such as AP need not have a det cap.

I read that while the peroxide was obtained locally in Germany the 'military style' blasting caps were obtained from Syria. Thats pointless sheeplefood. Mere fluff.

BTW, while the stunt was staged in Germany, it was supposedly the US gov who pulled the strings after our "intelligence" uncovered the alleged plot. We just used German pawns to carry out the takedown and begin the propaganda spread.

Also heard that the alleged "terrorists" were tipped off by a local German piggie during a routine traffic stop that they were on a government watch list which supposedly urged them to step up the pace a little bit. (thats hearsay, though, as I cannot site a source).

I suspect we'll be seeing alot more of these plots unfold as we near the 2008 election time. The one that gets through, thats the one you can definitely count on being a self-inflicted wound...

[Skean Dhu]

They may have been going for a watergel similar to the type discussed over on the SM forums. Easier to make than TATP(and you didn't think that was possible) and also only requires three ingredients. The basic mix is just Hydrogen peroxide, Aluminum powder and a binder(everyone at SM seems to be using guar gum). It creates a moldable putty that will remain viable for around 6 hours.

[Vitalis]

Whatever these people were doing or not doing with the peroxide in Germany, the time is ripe for a huge false-flag terrorist attack inside the USA and European Countries.

The Masses are not screaming for their rights to be taken away loud enough, but they will after the next attack.

Like festergrump said "The one that gets through, thats the one you can definitely count on being a self-inflicted wound..."

Is it just a huge coincidence that the ACC has ordered commandwide standdown Friday? http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/09/airforce_aircombatcommand_standdown_070807/

Or would that be too obvious, even for the idiots?

[megalomania]

The air force has issued a standdown because some stupid shit loaded a bomber with 5 nukes and flew it from Wisconsin to Louisiana without any authorization or without letting anyone (in the fedgov) know that the nukes were up there. The commander has already been sacked and there is to be an investigation, starting with the shakeup of the airforce.

I would think the concern is how someone without authorization could get nukes from what should be the most carefully guarded arsenal in the world. Someone in the airforce fucked up bad, and until the leaks are plugged they are all getting punished.

[Vitalis]

But ALL the Air Force is down, not just the bombers that carry nukes. The fighter jets should still be up.

[nbk2000]

I could see this being a set-up for a 'terrorist' nuke attack in september.

See, the same lapse in security that let the nukes on that bomber, is going to turn out to be the same lapse in security that let an Al-qaeda sleeper agent in the USAF divert a warhead to a terrorist cell in the US that will use the core in an nuclear IED to cause a mass-casualty event in a major metropolitan area.

This will be the pretext for suspension of the constitution and the elections (which are rigged anyways), letting Great White Brother assume power as president for life.

[festergrump]

Here's a quick reminder of what else was done recently to set the stage properly for martial law take over by GWB:

In early 2006, the 109th Congress passed a controversial bill which grants the President the right to commandeer Federal or even State National Guard Troops and use them inside the United States. This bill, entitled the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR), contains a provision, (Section 1076) which allows the President to:

“...employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to...

restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States..., where the President determines that,...domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy...” [3] Senator Patrick Leahy and others have condemned Section 1076 because it effectively nullifies the Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act (10 U.S.C. 331-335) and gives the President the legal ability to define under what conditions martial law may be declared.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Bye bye, Posse Comitatus. You were great while you lasted.

If ALL military planes are to be grounded on Sept 14 (this Friday) that leaves quite alot of different types of attacks to be carried out without intervention by aircraft. Usually is the case, though, that "completely unbeknownst to anyone" attacks occur at the very same moment in time that otherwise first line defenses happen to be training elsewhere for just the very thing that (is allowed to happen) happens...

By grounding all the planes, who would be left to intercept another renegade suicide commercial airliner attack? Hell, if the military really felt the need to ground all planes on one particular day, why would they feel the need to advertise that fact everywhere? That's not just odd, that's fucking STUPID!

I'll be looking for something horrible to happen on American soil on Friday, hoping I'm wrong.

Then again, NBK's suggestion is a very strong possibility, also. Many people feel and have felt for some time (myself included) that Bush would opt for a "nuke-U-lair" event just for the enormity of the loss. What better to make the sheeple beg for Bush to keep on with his war on terror? And lets face it, after 9-11 and the civilian disarm test after Katrina, you just know he'll want to go bigger this time around... I'd think he'd wait until a little closer to November of '08, though, but who knows for sure? It wouldn't really matter, anyway, would it?

[Vitalis]

Just think how fast we could be at war with Iran if a nuclear "event" were to happen inside U.S. soil.

The people would be BEGGING for it once the propaganda machine was turned up to super-high level.

Sometimes I wish we could get all the people who believe the Government's bullshit, load em all into one place and just vapourize them. Wait, not sometimes, ALL THE TIME!

[festergrump]

Easy there, killer... we were all sheeple and k3wl at one time or another, too, remember. Some need only a fire under their ass to wake up; others only a small thermonuclear event, military and militarized police at their doorstep, and a one-way wagon to a deathcamp parked in their driveway...

[Vitalis]

Don't worry, I can't manage to do it, it's just a fantasy I have. If people don't wake up after the next 9/11, then they really do deserve to be vapourized, though.

Once the police state is here, it may be too late.

[nbk2000]

..and a one-way wagon to a deathcamp parked in their driveway...

The 4chan party van, writ large. :)

[Vitalis]

The 4channers would be the first fuckos in my vapourization camps, no doubt.

It's just a damn shame to see everything so clearly, while so many people insist on being kept in the dark.

[festergrump]

Please note that there is quite a difference between a "police state" and "martial law". You are living in a police state right this very minute, even without martial law having been imposed upon all of us.

The fact that police can and do often stop everyone while travelling at a "no room to run" point and ask for credentials, ID, and give you a personal once over for absolutely no reason at all proves it. Cameras on every corner, needless wiretapping, no-knock warrants, facial recognition photography implemented upon arrest, etc. also verifies this fact.

All of this would be greatly magnified, however, if we were to be under a rule of martial law because it completely suspends the US Constitution, as well. Police State circumvents the Constitution with BS amendments and tiny-print add-ons to Bills which get passed over time (death of a thousand cuts). Martial Law, on the other hand, makes no bones about putting all Constitutional Rights on hold indefinitely, right from the start... (for our own good) :rolleyes: :mad: Don't expect any sort of trial by peers if detained under Martial Law.

Quite a difference, IMHO.

[Vitalis]

You're right festergrump, quite a difference. When Martial Law is imposed, that is the time to use the skills learned on roguesci to fight back in a most righteous and violent way.

[TreverSlyFox]

The problem with Martial Law, at least in the U.S., is we are a very, very big country.

Compared to many countries in the world, most of our "States" equal them in land area and population. Martial Law requires "boots on the ground" to maintain control and there aren't that many "boots" even if you add together every Local Police, Sheriff, State Police, Federal Marshals, all the ABC Agencies and the Military combined to control more than a few large cities at most.

The U.S. is also the most Armed Populace in the world so you can't piss off too many people and again you don't have the 'boots" to confiscate all the weapons already in hand. While a large percentage of the population would turn in their weapons if ordered to do so. There is also a percentage, maybe 3-5 percent, that not only would NOT turn their weapons in, but would turn them on the 'boots" that tried to enforce such an order. And many of that 3-5 percent are the ones that have prepared to do just such an action if it comes to that.

I doubt very seriously that Martial Law, on a country wide basis, could even be possible let alone be maintained in the U.S. :D

[Rbick]

Thats a very good point Trever. If you've been out west, you know that in areas such as Nevada and Utah, one could drive for a few hours without seeing a single other soul. This country is very expansive and given our size, the population isn't that high in number.

You make a good point about guns also, which is part of what makes our country pretty cool :cool:. I would (or will) definatley be one of those 3-5% people... But the 2nd ammendment was installed for the very purpose of preventing action by the government of that magnitude. I just hope everyone doesn't "wimp out" when the time comes to defend our constitutional rights against a government thats forgotten its place and turned to greed and power.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Unfortunately people associate "the west" with Kalifornia..... There are a Hell of a lot of people in the real western United States that unquestionably would NOT wimp out if it came to Clinton-style socialism or country-club conservatism ruining what rights we have left.

That's one of the basic reasons why folks don't like it when Kalifornians move to different states....They think they are trying to bring a bit of San Fransisco politics with them......

[Smkymcnugget420]

Remember that the average person hearing about or reading these news reports have knowledge of explosives that is stupendously dangerous. They hear "people were trying to make explosives" and they automatically believe whatever nonsense is printed in the newspaper...

The CIA calls it a "slide reaction" I remember reading it somewhere, sorry I can't verify. But basically they train the general population to immediately discredit/condemn a person or idea based on a single word, like UFO, conspiracy, 9/11 etc. its amazing to try and discuss a conspiracy theory with your grandparents or even parents, as soon as you utter the word conspiracy they laugh it off and don't even want to hear you out. It’s sad, oh and BTW who coined the word sheeple, I love it lol.

You're right festergrump, quite a difference. When Martial Law is imposed, that is the time to use the skills learned on roguesci to fight back in a most righteous and violent way.

Thats the sole reason I'm here, all this knowledge will be priceless in a couple years if not months. small tests are precusrors to large offensives when the need arises

[festergrump]

I found this article interesting as it's relevant to what the discussion in this thread has become.

http://www.rense.com/general78/mill.htm

---------------------------------------

Trevor, you make good points about what may happen when they go for the gun-grab and I am hoping you are right. :) It makes good sense. More specifically, I hope that those 3-5% of armed Americans will truly fight back when they do come for the guns. In order to do that and have a better chance of succeeding they first must pay more attention to details like we do and attempt to wake up their brothers and arm those who are not already armed, as well.

Chances are indeed slim that even Bush and Co. will declare Martial Law only to begin an immediate roundup of civilians and their weaponry, but Martial Law it seems is still definitely being set up. It would make more sense for them to make us believe the original focus on the need for Martial Law will be to ultimately "stay the course" (as Dubya is so fond of saying :rolleyes:) and continue his reign over us as "King of the Western World" first and foremost. He'll likely need a disclaimer so as to not spook us all of a sudden, even though many of us are aware it's coming and eventually in full force and effect.

I'm not saying I believe that it's not already in his mind to grab up all the guns and "bad sheeple", far from (and I think if his handlers would let him, he'd do it in an instant, as he's such an eager little beaver), but after a little time has passed and the herd has gone back to focussing on chewing their cud once again after Martial Law has been declared and no real immediately evident damage has been done other than a lack of the next presidential election, another step is taken towards it... stop and wait... like a wolf getting closer to it's prey. Baby steps, after all, are what we are used to when allowing our freedoms to be revoked, and it seems to be working. One step too close and too quickly can blow the whole hunt, even if "legally" within the boundaries of Martial Law he can do whatever the heck he wants.

[note: I say legally sort of tongue in cheek, as:

1) Bush could truly give a shit whether it's legal or not and
2) all the steps leading up to Martial Law were not, in fact, legal.
3) Once under Martial Law, pretty much anything is "legal" for the fedgov, no? No holds barred since martial law is illegal in and of itself.]

That plan would make more sense to me, for only a complete idiot would allow Dubya to enact an immediate and complete crackdown on the RKBA and other Constitutional Rights while unsure if the whole reaction can be completely contained first. I think they'll only get one chance to go for the gun-grab, and for the sake of their own lives had better get it right on the first try. For OUR sake I hope they move too quickly and spook the herd. I hate the thought of an all out war in America, but fear the alternative is much worse.

The main concern, though, is that Martial Law is being prepared for. Add a coat of grease to an already slippery slope, in other words.

A good idea would be to watch for people like Alex Jones to disappear from his soapbox and listen for the crickets in their stead. When they black bag Mr. Jones and other well informed, vociferous Americans like him, we'll know the wolves are licking their chops in anticipation for the rest of us.

[black mamba]

I'm not familiar with much of the material in this article. Could any members here debunk or verify if this is at all possible? Is abovetopsecret.com "kewl" or does it have some credibility? http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread302187/pg1

Barksdale Missile Number Six deserves far more public attention than it's received to date. Missile Number Six is potentially the major story of at least this year.

Until 1968 under the Airborne Alert Program, informally called Operation Chrome Dome, the Air Force routinely kept about a dozen strategic bombers with nuclear weapons flying at all times.

One predictable result was crashes and incidents. In 1968 the Department of Defense published a list of 13 serious nuclear weapons accidents that occurred between 1950 and 1968. In 1980 the list was revised to include 32 incidents through that year.

Notably, the Pentagon has not acknowledged any accidents since 1980. This alone highlights the importance the Pentagon is placing on the recent transportation of nuclear weapons from North Dakota to Louisiana.

Through 1968, several reported incidents involved plane crashes or malfunctions, beginning with the crash of a B-29 near Fairfield, California in August 1950. The resulting blast was felt 30 miles away.

In July 1950 a B-50 crashed near Lebanon, Ohio. The high-explosive trigger for the nuclear weapon detonated on impact. The blast was felt over 25 miles away.

In May 1957 a nuclear weapon fell from the bomb bay of a B-36 near Albuquerque, New Mexico. Parachutes malfunctioned and the weapon was destroyed on impact.

In October 1957 near Homestead, Florida a B-47 crashed. The nuclear weapon was burned.

In March 1958 a B-47 accidentally dropped a nuclear weapon near Florence, South Carolina. The high-explosive trigger detonated on impact.

In November 1958 a B-47 crashed near Abilene, Texas. The trigger of the nuclear weapon exploded upon impact.

In July 1959 a C-124 crashed near Bossier City, Louisiana. Both plane and nuclear weapon were destroyed.

In October 1959 a B-52 with two nuclear weapons was involved in a mid-air collision near Hardinsburg, Kentucky. One weapon partially burned.

In January 1961 a B-52 broke apart in mid-air near Goldsboro, North Carolina. Two nuclear weapons were released. The parachute on one weapon malfunctioned, and contamination was spread over a wide area. The uranium core was never recovered. Daniel Ellsberg reported that detonation was a very real risk because five of six safety devices failed.

In that month near Monticello, Idaho a B-52 carrying nuclear weapons exploded in mid-air. No information was made available as to the weapons.

In March 1961 a B-52 with two nuclear weapons crashed near Yuba City, California.

In January 1964 a B-52 carrying two nuclear weapons crashed near Cumberland, Maryland.

In January 1966 a B-52 carrying four hydrogen bombs crashed after a mid-air collision near Palomares, Spain. Two weapons exploded on impact, with resulting plutonium contamination. A months-long program was undertaken to locate and extract the other two weapons from the ocean. Major policy changes were taken under consideration.

In January 1968 a B-52 carrying four hydrogen weapons crashed and burned near Thule AFB in Greenland. Explosives in one bomb detonated, spreading plutonium contamination. Apparently, the other three weapons have never been accounted for.

Following large public protests Denmark, which owns Greenland and prohibits nuclear weapons on or over its territory, filed a strong protest. A few days later the Secretary of Defense ordered the removal of nuclear weapons from planes. After that order was issued, all aircraft armed with nuclear weapons were grounded but kept in a constant state of alert.

In 1991 by Presidential order, nuclear weapons were removed from all aircraft. Bomber nuclear ground alerts, during which nuclear weapons are loaded onto bombers during test and training exercises, were halted. After that time, all nuclear weapons to be delivered by plane were permanently maintained in secure storage facilities.


August 30, 2007

All of which makes the transport of nuclear weapons in combat position on a combat plane so newsworthy.

On August 30, for the first time since 1968, nuclear warheads in combat position were carried by an American bomber. Numerous international treaty provisions were violated in the process.

That Thursday, a B-52H Stratofortress flew from Minot AFB in North Dakota to Barksdale AFB in Louisiana while carrying twelve cruise missiles. Either five or six of those missiles were armed with nuclear warheads.


Cruise Missiles

The missiles on the B-52 were AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile units, specifically designed to be launched from wing pods of B-52H planes.

A total of 460 units were manufactured by Raytheon. A total of 394 units are currently maintained by the Air Force. Apparently, 38 are to be modernized and upgraded in Fiscal Year 2008 and the other 356 are to be decommissioned pursuant to the 2002 Moscow treaty.

Raytheon has publicly announced the AGM-129 missiles are to be modified to accomplish a "classified cruise missile mission". This has widely been interpreted to mean conversion to bunker-busters, most likely for use in Iran. This widely accepted explanation is being used to explain why armed cruise missiles are being flown in American airspace.


Nuclear Warheads

The AGM-129 was specifically designed to deliver a W-80 nuclear warhead. The W-80 weapon has a variable yield capability, of 5 to 150 kilotons. For comparison purposes, the bomb used on Hiroshima was 13 to 15 kilotons, or equivalent to 13,000 to 15,000 tons of TNT explosive.


News Stories and Flawed Explanations

The story of the B-52 flight was first reported by Army Times, owned by Gannett, on Wednesday September 5. Gannett relied on information provided by "anonymous officers". The story was picked up by Yahoo Wednesday morning, published by USA Today and The Washington Pos, and then quickly spread.

In response, the Pentagon quickly spread an official explanation.

The Air Force admitted to an inadvertent error: The intent was to transport ACMs without weapons. According to military officers, the nuclear warheads should have been removed before the missiles were mounted on the pylons under the wings of the bomber.


In the words of the Pentagon:

"There was an error which occurred during a regularly scheduled transfer of weapons between two bases. The weapons were safe and remained in Air Force control and custody at all times."

For almost the first time in the history of the nation, the military has publicly and promptly admitted it "made a mistake". This in itself is truly astounding.

To reinforce the military's claim that a mistake was made, a system-wide stand-down was ordered for September 14.

That official explanation was quickly explained away. The mistake was made intentionally, so a "deliberate leak" of a secret operation could occur.

The CIA and the Office of Counter-Terrorism in the State Department explained that Barksdale AFB is a "jumping off point" for re-supply of the Middle East.

The "deliberate leak" was intended to serve as a veiled warning to Iran. This deliberately misleading explanation is evidently intended to lead the public or Iran or both to logically conclude the missiles are bound for Iran.

Bluntly, State and the CIA converted a whistleblower leak by true American patriots into a deliberate leak by official Washington, to scare Iran.

By this means Washington has led the public to forget or overlook the real issue.

To begin, the multiple official explanations reek to high heaven. They collectively read suspiciously like flimsy cover stories concocted in hasty desperation. And no amount of pretty lipstick will be able to make the official explanations pretty.


Transportation Violations

More conflicting explanations followed. These missiles are part of a group scheduled to be decommissioned. This would explain why they were shipped out of North Dakota.

But the missiles were not transported on their way to decommissioning. Missiles are normally decommissioned at Davis-Monthan AFB at Tucson. Nuclear weapons are decommissioned at the Department of Energy's Pantex facility near Amarillo, Texas, accessed through Kirkland AFB in New Mexico.

And military policy requires minimization of the number of flights made with nuclear weapons aboard. So the weapons should not have been mounted on the missiles, flown to Louisiana, un-mounted and flown to New Mexico.

The mode of transportation is also a major issue not defused by official explanations. Per standard operating procedures, or SOPs, both missiles and nuclear warheads are transported primarily by air, in specially modified C-130s or C-17s. Under no peacetime circumstances do military SOPs allow transport of nuclear weapons mounted in cruise missiles mounted in combat positions on combat planes.

Department of Defense Directive Number 4540.5, issued on February 4, 1998, regulates logistic transportation of nuclear weapons.

By delegation of Commanders of Combatant Commands, movement of nuclear weapons must be approved by commanders of major service commands.

Commanders of Combat Commands or service component commanders must evaluate, authorize and approve transport modes and movement routes for nuclear weapons in their custody.

The Air Force is required to maintain a Prime Nuclear Airlift Force capability to conduct the logistic transport of nuclear weapons.

Under SOPs, combat planes with combat-ready nuclear weapons can only be flown on the authority of the Commander in Chief, the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the National Military Command Authority.

All of these transportation regulations were flagrantly violated on August 30.


Handling Violations

Violations of regulations concerning handling of the nuclear weapons in North Dakota are worse.

A sophisticated computerized tracking system is used for nuclear weapons. Multiple sign-offs are required to remove the weapons from their storage bunkers.

The AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missile was designed to carry nuclear weapons. No non-nuclear warhead is available for this missile. So the only possible error could have been loading nuclear warheads on the missiles instead of practice dummies.

The practice warheads have standard blue and yellow signs declaring "Inert, non-nuclear". The nuclear warheads have at least three distinctive red warning signs. This error is therefore highly improbable, absent tampering with signage.

Nuclear weapons are transported from the storage bunker to the aircraft in a caravan that routinely includes vehicles with machine guns front and rear and guards with M-16s. All steps in the process are done under the watchful eyes of armed military police.

Rules require that at least two people jointly control every step of the process. If one person loses sight of the other, both are forced to the ground face-down and temporarily "placed under arrest" by observant security forces. All progress stops until inspections are made to assure the weapons weren't tampered with.

All nuclear weapons are connected to sophisticated alarm systems to prevent removal or tampering. They could only be removed from the storage bunker by turning the alarm off. And the squad commander clearly would not have authority to turn off the alarm.


The Impossible Mistake

Bluntly, the mistake of loading nuclear weapons on a combat aircraft in combat-ready position is simply not possible to make. Safeguards are far too stringent and far too many people would be involved. Particularly given that the mounting was in violation of policy that's been in place without exception for almost 40 years.

No discipline is expected to be meted out. The New York Times tried to imply the commanding general had been fired. Actually, the squad commander in charge of munitions crews at Minot was "relieved of duty pending an investigation". He has not been removed from his position or disciplined. The crews involved have been "temporarily decertified pending corrective actions or additional training" but have not been disciplined. No mention has been made of the wing commander.

Note carefully: These actions amount to nothing at all. The wing and squad commanders are still in place and the crews can easily be re-certified.


Successful Confusion

Washington's efforts to confuse the public have been successful. Attention has shifted from the crucial issue.

This news has already become non-news. The August 14 stand-down will momentarily become news, followed by announcements of more stringent restrictions, improved safeguards and additional training. The public always has been and always will be safe.


One of the major issues will be avoided:

Someone in an irregular chain of Air Force command authorized loading and transport of nuclear weapons.

And that would never have been done without a reason. Given the magnitude of regulatory violations involved, the reason must be extremely important.

The paramount issue will be avoided, if necessary with repetition of the reassurance that the Air Force was in control at all times. The weapons were only missing during the 3.5-hour flight.

At Barksdale, the missiles were considered to be unarmed items headed for modernization or the scrap heap, and of no particular importance. They were left unguarded for almost ten hours.

According to one report, almost ten hours were required for airmen at Minot AFB to convince superiors that the nuclear weapons had disappeared. According to information provided to Congress, this time lapsed before airmen at Barksdale "noticed" the weapons were present. News reports will continue to overlook this fact also.

Even here the focus is on time. The number of missiles and warheads issue was overlooked.

Early news reports spoke of five nuclear warheads loaded onto the bomber. Apparently, this information was provided from Barksdale.

That number was later updated to six weapons missing from Minot, apparently based on anonymous tips provided to Military Times by people at Minot. This information has also been forgotten.


Conclusion

Six nuclear weapons disappeared from Minot AFB in North Dakota.

Five nuclear weapons were discovered at Barksdale AFB in Louisiana.

Which leads to my chilling conclusion:

Someone, operating under a special chain of command within the United States Air Force, just stole a nuclear weapon.


What next?

The answer has been provided several times, most recently by CIA Director and General Michael Hayden. On September 7, dressed in full military uniform, Hayden told assembled members of the Council of Foreign Relations:

"Our analysts assess with high confidence that al-Qaida's central leadership is planning high-impact plots against the U. S. homeland."

"We assess with high confidence that al-Qaida is focusing on targets that would produce mass casualties, dramatic destruction and significant aftershocks."

An eye for an eye. Use of nukes will justify use of nukes. A perfect excuse to wage nuclear war against Iran.

I suspect Hayden is absolutely correct, except for his mistaken identification of the "central leadership" that is planning detonation of a nuclear weapon on American soil.