Another good way to make BP

[Polumna]

Hi

I found another good way to make a respectable blackpowder,
you will need:

A jar out of PVC
Nuts or steel balls.
KNO3+S+C grinded together in a mortar and pestle a bit.
The chemicals must be airfloat.
A bit of water to moisten the BP

1: Start by dumping your BP-mixture in the PVC-jar,
then add some water to moisten it.

2: Fill the nuts in the jar( the jar should be half full of nuts/ steel balls), close it and start shaking for roughly 1-5 minutes.

Your chemicals will become much more finer, and you will get a good quality BP.

This is my blackpowder ( granulated), I shook it 1-2minutes as fast as I can:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p120Kp5Rlaw

I do this because I am lack of a ball mill, and don´t be surprised about the KNO3-spots, they are there because my BP was still a bit wet.

I hope you like this tutorial.

[nbk2000]

Hmm...let's make a pipebomb out of PVC, fill it with black power and scrap shrapnel, and shake it by hand. :rolleyes:

How could this be anything but FAIL?!

[Polumna]

Hi:confused:

You are thinking it is actually a pipebomb?
Then you are thinking the wrong way.

I just use this method and it is absolutely non dangerous, because I moisten the blackpowder mix.

PS: Is this blackpowder good for lifting shell´s?

[nbk2000]

Oh, it's a pipebomb, whether you realize it or not. Just a matter of how long until BOOOM! and you turn into the legendary pink mist.

[festergrump]

You are thinking it is actually a pipebomb?
Then you are thinking the wrong way.

The wise man would UTFSE and find threads like this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=1070&highlight=ball+mill) one and this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5150) one.

The latter thread will allow you to realize how you have been conversing with someone (NBK) who'd probably care little more to have you for dinner than have a chat with you of this sort. Take heed.

Another thing wise men practice regularly in this hobby is keeping their ball mills in remote locations via long extention cords and controlling the on/off function by plugging them in or unpluggin them from a safe distance. This, of course, would only further reinforce the notion that safety is indeed an issue, especially when engaging in milling ALL the chems at once like you intend to do (again), moistened or not!

Looking at the cup as half full instead of half empty (who? ME? :o), your pipebomb is actually almost halfway to being a somewhat workable drum for a usable ball mill. With some ingenuity, some better thought, SAFETY mindedness, and some fingers crossed... may you find the way to that endevour instead of a very bad accident.

Pink mist is easy. Be my hero and survive (especially after starting this thread). :)

[wymanthescienceman]

Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing here, is this guy seriously saying what I think he is? :confused:

Lets see how many no-no's we have here:

1: An inexperienced noob trying to make an explosive mixture. :rolleyes:
2: Using spark producing steel nuts/balls to mill an oxidizer/fuel mixture. :o
3: HOLDING IN YOUR HAND, an explosive mixture within a shrapnel producing PVC container containing said spark producing media. :(
4: SHAKING IT??!!! :eek:

DO US ALL A FAVOR, either stop right now what you are doing, or at least read up on the proper techniques of making black powder. FFS man, you DON'T WANNA LEARN FROM THIS MISTAKE THE HARD WAY!! :mad:

Get a proper ball mill and some NON-SPARKING media before attempting to make BP ever again. Moistening the BP does not make it "non-dangerous", it could still go off at any moment.

I think this guy is in the fast lane to losing a hand or worse. I sure hope that he never tries to handle anything like AP or he may end up like a certain someone that used to post here long ago....ring ring....

[ChippedHammer]

I hear kclo3 + sulfur shaken with hard steel bolts works great as a blackpowder substitute :)

[Polumna]

Hi

Ok sorry, but can I put C+S together, shake it and use the CIA-method then?

[nbk2000]

Charcoal and sulfur is safe to grind together, but when you add the oxidizer to the fuel, that's when you're risking death.

[Alexires]

Polumna - There are plenty of resources on in the Internet on how to make BP without blowing yourself up. To sift the chaff from the wheat, I would look on this forum for links and information.

To start you off, I'll give you this link (http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/bp_making_EN.html) free of charge, but please make sure that you UTFSE (Use The Fucking Search Engine) and at least make a decent attempt at finding the information you require before asking here.

I think most would agree that the website posted here is a nice start for beginners interested in pyrotechnics.

Also something to remember about using a ball mill, don't use sparking media. That is, don't use things like steel (bolts, etc) because they can spark.

Lead is good and there are a few thread around here about what media to use. Also there are plenty of resources on the Internet free for your perusal.

[Bert]

Wouter Visser's page linked above suggests damping the BP mix before ball milling. This is not necessary, has little safety advantage for ball mills and tends to make the charge clump in the jar, which is counterproductive.

I have allways milled the ingredients dry since the first few times I did this. Russ Nicholls, who has made many tons of BP type mixes for his SFX business also mills dry. The use of water in the milling process was needed when old fashioned "edge runner" mills were used for commercial production, ball mills don't need it. What ball mills DO need, as stated here and elsewhere, is to have non-sparking media, be located remote from anything you wouldn't care to blow up or set fire to, and be turned on and off remotely.

If you are going to hydraulicaly compress the milled powder into a solid "puck" or sheet before graining, that is the time to add a bit of water or water/alcohol mix.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Polumna -where these folks are going is that the steel - steel mixing dynamic is a flawed agenda as sparks may generate even from a whetted comp. PVC attracts static and essentially we are relying on the moisture to keep us out of the woods (pink mist time - see Bert's comment as well).

Major powder mills have found that relying on whetting alone results in disaster if other forces of ignition are not contained. ...No one wants to see you get hurt is all. Think it over; the logic is very clear. The method presented is a recipe for disaster. What's more the UTUBE vid is some fellow lighting a bit of powder (?)......

There is a new flick out called The Kingdom. In it the identification of inexperienced explosive makers is the missing fingers on their hands. If honesty were required of all those who post here you would undoubtedly find some people who had some VERY close calls or those who did, indeed get hurt playing with these energetic materials & not having done enough background research before-hand. All whetting eventually dries out. Deflagerants ignited, produce gases quickly in enclosed surroundings and produce explosions, there upon inducing casualties. BP appears to be a somewhat mellow & controllable deflagerant but was utilized for hundreds of years in anti-personnel devices just like the one you illustrated.

[Polumna]

Hi

Sorry for my bloody mistake again :eek:
I was WAY to stupid.
Now I got something like 300 nuts, and I also have a big jar o fill it the half way full with nuts.

Now I thought about dumping a C+S mix indide the jar, shake it for 5minutes,
and then I want to use the CIA-method.


Will I get some very good quality blackpowder then, I mean like this guy here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hVLXG9e5K-U

[tmp]

Polumna, you mentioned using the 3 ingredients at an "airfloat" level. That's
fine except for your milling media. As others have mentioned already, the
steel media can spark and send you to HELL in a flash. Look, you're halfway
there if you've got the ingredients at an "airfloat" level already. I grind my
charcoal and sulphur together in a flour mill before sending it to the ball mill.
Even then, I use a 100-ft. extension cord in case of an accident.

No one here is trying to discourage you from experimenting. Just use some
safety precautions and it'll work out. Metal, and even glass, can "spark".
BP is very sensitive to spark ignition. Even a static discharge can ignite it !

Take care and let us know how it's working out for you. BTW, check your
PMs.

[Red Beret]

A bit of advice Polumna, use a proper ball mill!!

From someone who has been there, don't bother with cheap half assed methods, do it properly! A ball mill is safer and will make you high quality powder. It's been said so many times here; you need a ball mill for high performance powder! If you can't make one yourself, buy one.

I shuddered when I read your post.

A rule for E&W projects: Don't Cut Corners!

[lucas]

One good source of media is a gun shop. In this country anybody can buy lead shot without a firearms licence. 00 buckshot also known as SGs are a good media. If one replaced the steel with lead I'd happily shake that mixture. Don't treat BP or any explosive as intrinsically safe, but milling BP wet with lead media is pretty safe.

You will get flamed for dumb shit and stuff that cuts corners for your own good! So go get some NON SPARKING LEAD and make sure you have fun safely. Good luck and safety.

[Cobalt.45]

A poorly integrated mixture of powdered Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur and Charcoal goes by many names including rough mix, green mix or powder, poor powder, hand-made powder, screened powder, or serpentine powder.

For many years this was the only form of black powder known, and despite its limits, it was used in firearms and rockets with some success.

Green mix suffers from mechanical separation into layers of their components. The three components of BP vary quite significantly in density, and during transport green mix will separate making it unpredictable. Sulfur, the heaviest, to the bottom, charcoal, the lightest, to the top.

Such poorly integrated mixtures also burn fairly slowly, and leave much dross. The 15:3:2 mixture is not optimal for green mixes; this is likely why early compositions list much higher percentages of charcoal and sulfur than more modern ones.

Green mix is prepared in modern times by simply screening together the finely pre-powdered components using a brass mixing screen.

Its drossy nature makes it useful as a prime, and modern milling techniques of the separate components produce a screened powder that is often fast enough for low-performance propellant applications.

So, preparing your "BP" using PVC pipe and steel balls/nuts is not necessary.

[DetaDude]

If you can, get hold of a back copy of the American Fireworks News June 2005
I published an article in that issue on a new method of making excellent BP for all of us poor kids that can't afford Goex. It involves milling the final mix in a saturated solution of 70% isoproponal using lead musket balls (.454 dia.).

So far on this thread everyone has been trying to help you in every way so you can do something safely and learn as you go HEED the advice you find here as
they say and do ur research. We're all big boys and girls and You will not be spoon fed on the forum.

Good Luck and always work safe.

[tomu]

Why should anyone mill the green mix in Isopropyl Alcohol? Btw. saturated with what?

Dry milling of BP with lead media in a ball mill is save as it can be, absolut non sense in filling the jar with Isopropyl Alcohol other to complicate the issue.

If that's the quality of the articles in American Fireworks News than it is better not read by anyone.

[Bert]

If that's the quality of the articles in American Fireworks News than it is better not read by anyone.
Heh. Many have come to that conclusion...

I would guess that ball milling BP as a slurry in 70% alcohol works. I am certain that the extra cost of the alcohol and the time to dry the slurry after milling are a waste of your time and money. Considering the source being AFN , the reason for the alcohol/water is probably some notion of safety.

Pity Pyrotechnica seems to have crawled into a corner and died- "Occasional" should be at least once a decade, you think?

[Cobalt.45]

Commercial milling operations not withstanding, most references to using water with or w/o alcohol is when making mid-grade "CIA method" BP.

Some swear by it:), some at it:mad:.

Relevant if you don't have access to a ball mill.

BP will at times clump up and adhere to the walls of a mill jar and/or media if it isn't bone dry. Obviously, this will not produce good BP.

So if you are determined to add water or a water/ alcohol mixture, you might as well add enough to make a slurry that will be capable of being swept along with the media, not stuck to it and the jar.

But ball milling DRY is by far my personal preference.

[DetaDude]

Hey guy's lighten up or as the old saying goes "..it's bad enough to be thought a fool but why open your mouth and remove all doubt" before you get critical about my work you had better read the article and find out why the use of the alcohol. I don't make a habit of bad mouthing others on the forum and I as a newbie I think it sends a bad message to any really smart people who may want to post here with some valuable info. Lets all keep with the spirit of the forum and keep it wholesome and helpful. Thanx

[ultrabuf]

You can make very high quality bp using a cheap plastic rock tumbler like this http://library.thinkquest.org/J0110482/media/tumblerclose.JPG
This is what I use for my bp, and it will stick to the sides of the meal but a simple way to combat this is to stop milling every hour or two and just tap the sides firmly with a dowel. One of the most important factors to quality bp is the kind of charcoal you use. If you don't granulate your bp and you just want fast meal, a simple way to give slightly better performance is to dampen the bp with a water alcohol mixture after milling and let it dry. Here is my bp after doing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9URQAnvqVuo.

[Cobalt.45]

Hey guy's lighten up or as the old saying goes "..it's bad enough to be thought a fool but why open your mouth and remove all doubt" before you get critical about my work you had better read the article and find out why the use of the alcohol.Hey Deta- Since you published the article that appeared in AFN, hows about sharing it here with this forum?

Otherwise, no one except you and who ever has the copy knows what you're talking about.:confused:

I for one would be very interested in reading of "a new method of making excellent BP for all of us poor kids that can't afford Goex."

And you could explain, "It involves milling the final mix in a saturated solution of 70% isoproponal...", which worded like that makes no sense.

I have the feeling that this is a scheme that has recrystallization of KNO3 at the heart of it. Or maybe a process that will give yet more traction to the idea of potassium nitrate being drawn up into the pores of the 'coal.:rolleyes:

But who knows? 'Till you shed some light on it, it's all guesswork.

[DetaDude]

I will give a condensed brief version of the process without getting to long and drawn out.

First of all I make my own charcoal from cottonwood poplar, then ball mill to airfloat. Next measure out nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal to the 75%,15%,10% standard ratio . Mix sulfur and charcoal and mill dry together for approx. 48 hrs., mill the nitrate to a very fine powder. Mix all three items together and dump into the ball mill jar to the half way point, then fill the rest of the jar with either 70% or 91% isopropyl alcohol, and mill for approx 48+ hrs (more is better).

The alcohol was selected as it provides a safe mix inviroment and will not leach the nitrate out of the mix as water often does. After final milling I pour off the excess alcohol and place the BP in cupcake papers, in a cupcake pan and allow it to air dry to reduce the remaing alcohol till the pucks are damp dry, lastly the pucks are pressed in a 12 ton hydro press and dried then grained.

Of all the reports that I get back from pyro's, this appears to be a good way to produce a respectable and fast BP..

Anyone wishing more info please e-mail me and I will provide more detailed info

NOTE: The hydro pressing is not really needed to get good results.

[Bert]

Thank you for providing an overview of your method. Now we know what you're doing in enough detail to try it if we were so inclined- Or critique your method, if we desire. And we do...

Firstly- As noted by Cobalt.45, "saturated solution" has an exact meaning which has nothing to do with what you are describing. None of the ingredients dissolve in 70% isopropyl alcohol in any meaningful quantity... A better description would be "slurry". Not only are we spelling Nazis, we are technical term storm troopers here. Potentially dangerous processes call for strictly exact descriptions, using terms as they are widely understood in the context of chemistry and engineering.

Glad you're making your own charcoal. Needed for the best performance, assuming you have a good wood species and cooking profile.

You describe milling in a jar with basically NO airspace. You also describe taking about 2 to 4 times as long as a properly set up dry mill would take to make decent BP, assuming you are using a mill jar with a reasonably large Dia. As the milling media are not moving very fast in liquid as they tumble over the top of the charge compared to the speed they would move in air, they aren't doing as much work per revolution towards incorporating the mixture, all other factors being equal. What size ID mill jar are you using?

Additionally, you are spending a good bit of time to dry the sludge, and losing whatever fraction of the alcohol is retained in it after you decant the supernatant liquid. More wasted time, and an extra expense.

You are also trading whatever risk is inherent to ball milling dry BP for having a batch sized quantity of BP wet with a flammable solvent sitting around and drying, exuding flammable vapor. I don't know where you dry your sludge, but I can see a potential for a problem here- Especially if heated drying is used.

To sum it up: The method is described as significantly slower than dry milling. The method is more expensive than dry milling. The method has its own additional risk, possibly a greater one than that of dry milling, depending on environment. No comparative test data is offered to prove a superior product for the additional time and expense...

Now as far as my snarky comments regarding AFN: I have been a subscriber in the past. I have met Jack Drewes- He's a nice guy. He also needs to find something to publish every month. He might find someone with a wonderful, innovative, cutting edge new pyro technique- Or he might publish some guastamisterei,(sp?) adeldepateldy reinvention of the wheel by an enthusiastic newbie who hasn't got enough experience or background yet to know where his idea stands in relationship to the history of the craft, and gets unhappy when those who have gone there before are not adequately impressed with their new mud pie.

[Cobalt.45]

Of all the reports that I get back from pyro's, this appears to be a good way to produce a respectable and fast BP.. Thanks for recapping your process.

It is interesting.

Can I assume from your long mill times that you are using a less-than-optimized mill?

Otherwise, the mill time used on the S and 'coal (48 hrs.) represents the time used to run at least 6 batches of BP in a proper ball mill.

Truth be told, I don't mill BP any longer than 4 hours, but my mill, well, mills. I'll use 8 hours as the yardstick in this instance, anyway.

Then you mill again for 48 + hours so we're up to 12 + batches, then drying time...

While your process may well produce good BP, the time spent doing it is unnecessarily long and cumbersome and offers no benefit that I can see.

But if it works for your needs, so be it.

[DetaDude]

When I used the term "saturated solution" I did so as a quick idea of what was taking place in a general sense. I'm sorry for the terminology error.It should have been slurry. Yes you were right on in pointing out the mistake.

The mill I use is small as mills go with a rubber mix container approx. 4"dia. x 5"long . I merely used the term jar as does the lapidary store that sold me a spare . These are liquid tight, and used for wet polishing rocks by design.

Sorry, but I have no data on the performance of the BP other than to say it performs nicely in a side by side test with some commercial equivalent (both samples were FFA).

As for drying , I live in a rural area and have a nice out bldg. that serves this purpose very well. No forced drying is used.

About the time spent. I'm retired and have lot's of it, time that is.

The wood that I use for my charcoal is rated right up with Willow. And for the extra expense , well I feel the added safety is worth a couple of bucks on cheap alcohol.

I came up with this method to serve my needs as it does quite well.

I'm not sure about how much experience is needed for this stuff but I sure hope that 55 years of background is plenty.

[Cobalt.45]

I'm not sure about how much experience is needed for this stuff but I sure hope that 55 years of background is plenty.Enough experience can be gained in 15 minutes to produce BP.

But a lifetime can be spent perfecting all the different processes, as well as testing and comparing different ratios, charcoals, ingredient purity, pressed densities, corning, grading and on and on.

Then there's burn rate comparisons, many different ways to test the power, to prepare the charcoal, to mill dry or your method and more things that I've not mentioned here.

But, yea, 55 years ought'a qualify as enough "background". But come on, you didn't take 55 years to come up with the aforementioned process, did you?:p

For what it's worth, here's a site that has some real, good info on BP, and a lot of other good pyro info.

The CIA method, as well as the more traditional method explained in detail. And the work done testing charcoal in BP is great. Many different wood types are evaluated. Then there's the testing done on whistle mix, and rockets, but that's another topic.

Here it is: http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/

I know the mill you are using, I think. Chicago Electric, as sold by Harbor Freight, and United Nuclear (for like $30.00 more).

Problem with it is it turns too slow. By taking a piece of 5/8" ID heater hose, you can increase the RPM to ~90. It's ~60 RPM stock. This is the biggest improvement you can make!!!

Cut a 4" long piece of it, split it down the side and put it over the driven roller. Secure with duct or friction tape. The larger OD of the roller will kick up the speed and you will see an immediate improvement in milling time and efficiency.:D

How this relates to trying to mill BP while it's a slurry, I don't know. But for milling your dry ingredients before their wet down, it will work like a charm. And configured like I've said, it will make real good BP but the batches are kind of small (~1 cup volume).

Remember: Jar 1/2 full of media by volume, 1/4 jar volume is the charge size. 80- 90 RPM. Your media size and material is fine.

Remove the hose/tape if not needed when you wet mill, but you may not want to wet mill after you get a GOOD batch in about 8 hours total.

Do a search on ball mills here on rs.org- I and others have posted good tips on using this tumbler.

I may be preaching to the choir, but someone might find this useful.

[DetaDude]

Your right on the money about the mill (Harbor Freight) I do modify them with a small muffin fan for increased cooling, and replace the belt (O-ring) with a sewing machine belt. Your advice on the increase in speed and method of doing so is very welcomed. Thank you.

No it did not take 55 yrs. to come up with this idea, I hit on it by accident while doing something else. Like everything else in life it can stand some tweaking as i proceed with this method of wet milling.

Again thank you for some very helpful info, on the mod's and the website.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There was a guy named Loyde Spooneburger (sp?) who used to post in rec.pyrotechnics some years back who wrote a book on ball milling that became quite popular. He had some interesting things to say on the type of medium and the construction of those mills.

He did some tests with shapes and materials that was very revealing. IIRC it's tough to get brass spheres, [but as I remember] he liked 1-1.5" brass spheres the best. His reasoning was that since they were a bit lighter and harder than lead they "bit" into the milled material better than lead at a given speed of rotation.

He also did stuff in a big way: large mills were his thing. But buying a lapidary unit is generally the thing that most hobbyists get as many folks don't have the time to make the thing from the ground up. There was some issue that was discussed at length as to speed of the drum & drum construction (the lap drums being rubber, etc).

It seemed to some folks that if the speed is higher, the smaller drum milled salts faster. But if the speed were moderated, the smaller drums would break down aluminum faster. I don't remember the rational for this but I do remember the discussion. I have milled Mg & Al in small, slightly slower drums and once compared that result to a faster drum & tend to agree with those results. Salts tend to break down much better with speed.

[DetaDude]

When it comes to ball mills, I've got both ends of the spectrum covered but nothing in between. I have several of the HF small mills and a large mill with a 1/3 hp motor that came out of a resturant (they used it to tumble polish the silverware) and gave it to my father, and we used it to clean brass back when we were doing pistol match and reloading ALOT of ammo. I think it's circa 1930's,and built like a battle ship,, very heavy.

I think I've heard of that Loyd guy in the pyro circles, but never read any of his material.

Charles thank you for the info on the mill speeds vs material I'll keep it in mind and do some testing . I'm not sure the speed of my large mill but it appears to be about the same as the small ones but next time I use it I'll check the RPM's.

Guy's thanks alot for the tips and the help it is much appreciated.

[Cobalt.45]

While we're on the subject, justme uploaded Lloyd Sponenberg's book here a while ago.

It has most everything you'd need to know to set up and/or build a pyro ball mill.

This goes for ~$40.00 at Skylighter...

Cobalt.45 - I think your link is funny....as in not working. Thanks. I've corrected it. This links directly to the rapidshare site where the download is located:
http://rapidshare.com/files/27701280/ballmill.pdf.html

Click on this to go to justme's origional post:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=90086#poststop

[Alexires]

Cobalt.45 - I think your link is funny....as in not working. This (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=90086&highlight=ball+mill#post90086) is the correct link...

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Thanks for uploading that book; I appreciate it. - It brings back memories of some of the older members in rec.pyrotechnics getting exasperated with the same questions about flash and someone constantly trying to buy red P in Usenet during a discussion...... ;-)

If some of you fellows remember back then there was a guy who had a real database of stuff named Don Haarman (sp?). He posted some good stuff also.

[Bert]

back then there was a guy who had a real database of stuff named Don Haarman (sp?). He posted some good stuff also.

Yes, he do be still alive and kicking. He posts interesting tidbits on the PML from time to time.