Plausible deniability.

[Chemdabbler]

I've created this thread to discuss options, weapons and tactics which would seem to be a diversion from the "Easy ways to harm attackers" thread, which seems to be mostly about deadly uber-weapons and bloody revenge scenarios.

I'm interested in what sort of methods people here use, in daily life to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their property. I highlight daily life to make a point about realism. Any complicated, inconvenient or illegal self defense system is likely to be so much of a hassle over any conceivable period of time that one would end up ignoring it and most likely fail to have it on hand when they do need it. Anything too illegal is likely to get me into more trouble than it gets me out of. If i accustom myself to carrying a can of Easy-off or a home-made pen gun around, and actually DO manage to have it on hand all the time, how likely is it it'll accidentally get it discovered by the pigs?

And then there's the issue of outcome if you actually DO have to use it. I mean this is fucking Canada, it's only barely legal to defend yourself with a firearm at all, much less with some homemade concealed one. Sure, you can plan to use it and run, but that plan kind of depends on the criminals only attacking you when there aren't any witnesses about. Imagine you fail to escape, how on EARTH are you going to explain to the police why you had a big-hollow-spike tire deflater in your pocket coming out of a nightclub with your girlfriend when some lowlife tried to jump you?

What i've developed is a combination of situational awareness techniques, physical fitness and preparation, and simple, solidly built, DENIABLE weapons.
There were fantastic examples of these posted back in the original thread, the flashlight attached by a solid metal ring to a bunch of keys, a heavy belt buckle on a sturdy belt.

My personal defensive kit, some or the other of which i usually carry with me, is the following:
Innova X5T flashlight - I carry this if I'm walking at night, and from practice with friends, it makes an effective fist load, and a fucking devastating hammer-punch to bone areas.

CRKT M16 Pocketknife - My job is blue-collar enough that having one of these in my pocket or on my belt is natural enough, and it's both of high enough quality that I'll trust it not to fold up on me, and cheap enough that i won't have a second's thought about chucking it down a storm drain if it gets ... compromised.

Wallet - My wallet is nothing special, but because i tend to be absent minded, I've attached it to my car keys with some quality chain, a solid stainless ring, and a quarter-pound antique iron padlock. Should i be suddenly attacked, it would be natural of me to flail randomly about with the heavy-thing-on-a-chain. Without the keys attached, this thing will pulverise cinder block.

Others - Just about anything can be used to hurt someone, if you've a mind to and the will to. A cup of coffee can scald and shock if it's hot enough, which it probably isn't, but will certainly distract someone long enough for you to move in on them or attempt something like a disarm/weapon destruction type attack. A bag of groceries can distract and disorient if thrown with conviction to the head. If you're lucky enough to have bought canned goods, an effective one-or-two shot club can be arranged. You can jab with long umbrellas, strike with canes, either roll up and strike with or throw clouds of newspaper, etc... you probably shouldn't be carrying something any distance if you can't think of someway you can either hurt someone with it or distract them long enough to hurt them.



Anyway, I've written enough. If there's enough interest to sustain a discussion on reasonable, deniable weapons, let's have one. But let's keep the pocket-nukes and waterpipe artillery out of it.

[ChippedHammer]

A sock and $5 in change?

Ive got a nice Cree LED light with one of those attack heads on it, police have them and they are used as a last ditch weapon. Very nasty, would easily cut open someones face and take out a eye.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1318

[nbk2000]

The thing I hate about discussions about weapons is the "I'm limiting myself to * because *".

In this case "I'm limiting myself to WEAK WEAPONS because I LIVE IN THE PEOPLES DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF SNOW (CANADA) AND FEAR GETTING CAUGHT WITH A REAL WEAPON."

Deniable for carry? Great. But if it's not effective, why even bother?

Either carry the most lethal weapon you can, or have balls enough to stand on your own strength, and not futz around with luke-warm security blanket 'weapons'.

[Vitalis]

A sturdy screwdriver could do some serious damage, especially a sharp flat head one. Jam it in the attacker (preferably the throat) and twist several times.

If the Police ask you why you had a screwdriver with you, lie and say you just had to repair your car or were doing work with it earlier and forgot you were still carrying it.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Jesus Harold Christ, there are many like minded people here :-) Screwdrivers are a wonderfully effective thing. But really I wouldn't think a damn thing about throwing something away just because it cost $1000. ANY legal bills are going to be high: what the fuck is a $1000?

The actual "doing" is of MUCH less consequence then the aftermath, the disposal & excuse or whatever. Taking care of what needs to be done is not the thing I think needs emphasis but the issues involved in the "after the fact" agenda.

A fucking rock or a screwdriver is just fine....but then what? IMO, that's what needs attention for a long, healthy, fun filled life.

-=edit=-
Hell, I had to come back to this as it occurred to me that a good pair a boots is really all you need if you man-up to it and step on the shithead's foot and push him on his ass and kick the fuck out of his head when he falls on his ass. Even at my age it's not a big issue to hold you hands up palms away from you like you are backing down and do the deed. Your hands are in position for a fast push and stepping on his foot is simple enough. Steel-toes work well on heads. Young people could do that in a few seconds, right?

[sobreroHWE]

When I find a need to travel to Methville or "Se habla" town, I will carry my small .22 cal automatic. Despite the fact that it is a firearm, with gloves and no serial numbers (etched, then punched), it would be very easy for me to "plausibly deny" having ever seen such a felonious device. (as I throw it on a roof, or bury it in a trash can.)
A small, easily detachable, silencer fits in my pocket (adding another Federal charge here in the U.S) but reducing the chances of witnesses. I admit, getting caught with it could be some serious time, but getting stabbed by some toothless drunk street trash is decidedly worse IMHO.

I agree with NBK, either carry something serious enough to stop someone cold, or learn Kung-Fu.

[Toggle]

The sad fact is that you will likely have to defeat any attacker twice. Once in the street, and once in court. It's sick and twisted, but that's the way it is.

For walking my dog along the railroad tracks outside of the city I carry a sjambok. It's effective and doesn't attract much notice. YMMV. If I'm ever questioned I intend to call it a "switch" for vicious dogs. Well that is what it is, even though it works on those 2-legged vicious dogs too. ;)

[Hirudinea]

A good sturdy cane, you can cave in a skull with it and its totally inocuous on the street. "Officer I have a bad knee."

[Vitalis]

The sad fact is that you will likely have to defeat any attacker twice. Once in the street, and once in court. It's sick and twisted, but that's the way it is.

For walking my dog along the railroad tracks outside of the city I carry a sjambok. It's effective and doesn't attract much notice. YMMV. If I'm ever questioned I intend to call it a "switch" for vicious dogs. Well that is what it is, even though it works on those 2-legged vicious dogs too. ;)


You won't have to finish him off in court if you dispose of him in the street. As for any "grieving family" that may take you to court, you can be sure the punk had a history of violence and he WAS trying to kill you, so, there you have it.

[Toggle]

You won't have to finish him off in court if you dispose of him in the street.

It depends if he had a deadly weapon or not. Even if he did have one the prosecutor may go after you anyway.

http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm

It's best to plan on winning *BOTH* fights. And if you never get hauled into court, so much the better.

[barbwir3]

Back in my hay-day of being a dumb youth I used to carry a .25 pocket pistol. It found its untimely end in a dumpster after the slide cracked while I was shooting in the woods. Then I carried brass knuckles, for all they'er cracked up to be they're practically knuckle crackers if you don't land your punch correctly. And they are extremely illegal just about everywhere, then again I did have that pistol and my switchblade.

Now I carry an assortment of weapons that I have trained with and feel safe and content to use in a "fight situation."
My normal everyday load out:
Knives.
ColdSteel TI-Lite 4", always in my right front pocket "pocket draw"
Kershaw "Blurr", in my back pocket next to my wallet. or in my right pocket imitation buck knife, tucked in my back pocket, or in my boot.

Others.
carabiner, used like a single brass knuckle fat part down pointed end out.
steel toed boots,I can kick over my head and harder then I can punch.

I have taken judo, muy thai, kick boxing, and us military training. I have competed in MMA, Professional wrestling (I know its fake but still fun). I love a good scrap and I am not afraid of anyone. But my philosophy is to avoid a fight unless absolutely necessary.

[totenkov]

Something good that needs to be pointed out:

If you happen to be walking around on the rough side of town and your body language is radiating nervousness, you are going to attract trouble like shit to a blanket.

People that walk on the balls of their toes constantly watching their back are prime targets for muggers or people that are looking for trouble. Act like you normally would without drawing attention to yourself and remain passive, yet firm if you are confronted.

On my person I always carry my knife (small fast open unit with half the blade serrated) a Southord 14 piece pick set (I know some on the forum think this is a bad idea, yet they have become a great friend over the years and have served me incredibly well) some bills (about 50 bucks, wallets are to easy to rip off), phone and ipod. I don't often frequent areas were you will run into problems but when I do I always leave valuables at home.

Dress appropriately to fit in. There is no need to stand out more than necessary. Worst comes to worst, fight like crazy, don't hold back, in my experiences your own knife can be often turned against you, leave it in your pocket. If you know some moves you can become quite dangerous to enemies.

(its clear NBK lives nowhere in the upper US/Canada because if he did, he would know that its only the prairies that get the snow and the whatever territories, the rest of us get 2 weeks of white, thats it :)) (I did however get a good laugh out of that!)

[hatal]

Rocks. After we nuke ourselfs back to the stoneage or get extremely retarded (with the help of TV and genetic degradation) the weapon of choice for Average Joe will be, ROCKS. Either that or big shiney bones...

[panzerkampfwagen]

I would think that, although hard to find and a little pricey, fountain pens would make an ideal weapon. They are not suspicious, the tips are sharp and made out of osmium, and they can easily be used either as a lethal weapon or to just inflict alot of pain, depending on how hard you push.
USE
I am sure that ink does not do to well in your veins, in any case. The cartridges could easily emptied and replaced with whatever nasty chemical you could come up with, though I would suggest lye or bleach. It is incredibly painful, and unlike most toxic (lethal) chemicals, it acts instantly, which is important.
PARAGRAPH
If you want to get really complicated, you could probably fit a 9 mil or at least a .22 bullet inside of one, and there is already a pin on the inside that could be used as a firing pin. Leave it loose and it could be triggered like a boomstick.
BREAKS
I highly doubt that as long as you haven't killed anyone that the police would ever think to search the contents of a fountain pen (although they may make fun of you for carrying one).

[totenkov]

Not a very good weapon, maybe in the movies (Indiana Jones and the last Crusade) ;). Also it is a very expensive weapon!

Not very reliable or effective in the real world. It would be a last resort, first I would use my shoe laces hang him, or a paper clip to poke him in the eye ;).


*I also still laugh really hard when I think about NBK's idea about using a giant black dildo to beat the shit out of someone :D:D

[panzerkampfwagen]

I actually forgot that that was in Indiana Jones. I still think that there is a reason why the government consistantly uses pens as a model for concealed weapons. Come to think of it, it would probably be rather simple to use a pen to conceal a syringe. Especially a retractable pen. They have considerable internal volume, so you could use just about anything if you really want to. For a real fun time, inject melted butter into their arteries and give them a heart-attack. Maple syrup might also be rather amusing.

[Alexires]

If you happen to ride a motorbike (or push bike) everywhere, carrying a small can of (flammable) chain lube or all purpose lubricant wouldn't be a bad idea.... Of course, you smoke as well, and need to carry a lighter around.

On that idea, why not carry around a zippo and some lighter fluid? When confronted, hose the fucker down then stand there holding your lit zippo.

Otherwise, forget stylish, and bring back the old "brick" mobile phone. I bet that fucker would hurt if someone smashed you in the face with that.

Can't remember where I read it, but I have a feeling that NBK posted it. Go for that "post apocalyptic" look with steel caps, trench coats with metal plates secured to the outside and some big nasty looking rings on your fingers. Not only will you be making a fashion statement, but you will be armed and armoured for a possible attack.

I know a lot of goths around here have something like looks like plate mail on their fingers (look up "finger armor" in google images). While the commercially available ones are made of crap metal, you could always make your own. The piggery has done nothing about it where I live.

[Chemdabbler]

Yeah, in my goth-y youth, I wore more than merely decorative armour. I spent a lot of time in metal shop, and the teacher was more into weapons than I was, so long as I wasn't making actual blades, he didn't care what i did with the sheet metal. Unfortunately, I'm in my mid twenties, and the kind of fashion that cut it in my teens doesn't work any more.

I have to differ with Totenkov regarding fountain pens, though. Anything strong, well made, and with which you can make a fist, preferably with a sharp metal end, is better than bare hands.

What i was trying to get away from with this thread, though, was the "Make item more lethal by adding napalm/nerve gas/machine gun" school of self defense. If i have to actually stab someone with a fountain pen, the chance must always exist that I'm going to have to explain myself to some civil servant with a badge. It's going to be really hard to explain how i just happened to have a pen that writes in pressurized lye. Now, the idea of squirting lye into some scumbag makes me smile, but the potential consequences for me or any other decent human being who does it doesn't.

NBK: Yes, in a perfect world, i could take my C7 along when i jog in the evenings, and ideally I'd also be more than a match in hand-to-hand combat with any street punk who might try his luck. But neither of these are the case. Especially in this country, carrying individual small arms is officially a no-no, and it doesn't matter WHAT justification you have, using them in self defense is going to get you into shit. So far as having the balls, I'm more capable than average of defending myself, but I'd be a fucking idiot not to carry anything that's going to give me even one iota of edge. It's just a question of balancing risk vs. reward.

What i don't want is to have to make heat of combat decisions about which level of force is appropriate, which i WILL have to do if I'm carrying obvious 'weapons' around. If i use a flamethrower watch or magic poison-crossbow to take out some mugger armed with a broken coffee mug, I'm going to be in a worse position than if i just let him have my wallet. I want to only carry things i can use in ANY situation, hoping that if i have to defend it, i can say that the item was innocently carried, and only used out of panic. Toggle's defendu link made the point far better and far more eloquently than i could, and it just referred to legally carried, legally owned firearms. God only knows what would have happened to those people if they'd had illicit or homemade armament on them.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Although I'm a strong advocate of flouting illegitimate authority, including all laws that forbid you to carry weapons to protect yourself (while the state's enforcer pigs can walk around with guns), it's true that there are those who have children or other dependents and therefore can't flip off the "law" as comfortably as I do.

At the same time, related to what NBK was saying, one shouldn't put too much faith in inferior weapons. Even shooting someone several times with a handgun isn't guaranteed to stop his attack, so it's clear that stabbing someone with an ice pick or hitting him with a blunt object can't be relied upon to stop a fight. Any weapon is better than none, but before relying on a second- or third-rate weapon I would be very sure that my empty-hand fighting skills were quite formidable.

As for specific ideas, several good ones have already been given. I personally like the idea of using a relatively heavy "designer" pen made of metal as a kubaton. Holding such a pen in your fist with the tapered end extending from the bottom of your fist allows you to hammer the tapered end repeatedly into a person's skull, pressure points, etc.

If your opponent has a knife and you don't, you're in trouble. You're even in trouble if you DO have a knife in that situation, as I can't imagine anyone in a knife fight not getting cut at least once. For that situation, some kind of "stand-off" weapon like a cane (already mentioned) is necessary.

Maybe a sturdy umbrella could possibly be used as a kind of spear if it has a fairly sharp metal tip? True, sharpening the tip to a razor point would harm the "plausible deniability" aspect here, but maybe it's possible to buy one that's already sufficiently pointed to be usable as a stabbing weapon.

And then there are tools. Screwdrivers have already been mentioned, but really just about any hardened steel tool could be used as a weapon. Remember how the Virginia Tech shooter (Cho) was posing in that picture with a hammer? :p Of course most people aren't going to be inclined to carry a heavy toolbox around with them, but if you can think of an excuse for carrying a medium-sized hammer, large screwdriver, or even a pair of barber's scissors around with you, then you won't be unarmed.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This whole issue is about a state of mind more than anything else. Everyone has sat in a room for whatever reason and looked around them at all the things that COULD be used as weapons.....That's just natural with this mind-set; most people do that (at least on occasion).

So it really doesn't matter if you think a hunting knife in a folded newspaper is better than a machete under the car seat. It all comes down to motivation vs situational awareness & gut-level desire.

[njohnson1941]

http://www.canemasters.com/
I have traveled Europe and Asia with one and been through high-level US security, all post-911, never been questioned.

[Hirudinea]

Maybe a sturdy umbrella could possibly be used as a kind of spear if it has a fairly sharp metal tip? True, sharpening the tip to a razor point would harm the "plausible deniability" aspect here, but maybe it's possible to buy one that's already sufficiently pointed to be usable as a stabbing weapon.

No umbrella I've ever seen has a shaft strong enough to use as a weapon, spear or otherwise, but if you replaced the shaft with a piece of steel bar it could be effective, and if thrust with enough force even a fairly dull point can penetrate a persons body.

[Kaydon]

.45

It does the job.

[Alexires]

Kaydon - Riiiiight. And where is the plausible deniability in that?

"Honestly officer! I was carrying it because the shoe on my right leg is lighter than the one on the left, and the .45 counteracts it! It WASN'T premeditated!

[nbk2000]

Some people are just unclear on the concept. ;)

[teshilo]

Optional is dog chain with lead weight as you belt...Sleeve dagger like Delta dart desighn from Cold steel on the neck..

[Toggle]

No umbrella I've ever seen has a shaft strong enough to use as a weapon, spear or otherwise, ...

If you are able-bodied and live in an area it rains, an umbrella attracts less notice that a cane or walking stick. I came across this one that's made for self defense. I like it. Now if I only lived where it rained enough to carry one. The Unbreakable Walking-Stick Umbrella
http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html

The Canemasters name is well known. Even (especially?) by cops. I had a catalog where you could request that the Canemasters logo be omitted from the cane when you ordered one. You might save yourself some hassles if you carry a plain cane instead of an *evil* Canemasters cane.

Here's how to Koppo wrap a flashlight. Nice, but I don't think that the resulting 'Koppo stick' would be deniable.
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/koppowrap.htm

The list of things that can be used as a Yawara stick is huge. Cold Steel is selling a "Sharkie". It's a reinforced permanent marker that's made for hitting things. But the all time deniable Yawara has to be the rawhide dog-chew. Just find one that fits your hand and carry it in a pocket. It does help your story if you have a dog!:)
http://www.donrearic.com/yawara.html

[WMD]

Optional is dog chain with lead weight as you belt...Sleeve dagger like Delta dart desighn from Cold steel on the neck..

Not very deniable. The point about plausible deniability is that you won't look bad if it's found on your person. Plastic knives eg are very suspicious, even carrying a normal knive would look better.

[robinhood1532]

Should the secret be found, it wouldn't be very deniable, but I have just come up with an idea concerning umbrellas. It has undoubtably been thought of before -- disguising a slender machete as an umbrella. I have yet to try this idea, but I suspect that the handle and center rod would have to be removed, leaving the thinner supporting rods to preserve the bulk of a normal umbrella. The machete (along with a satisfactory sheath of heavy paper) can then be inserted. Depending on the handle of the machete, there would be little out of the ordinary at first glance. (Providing that it is a rainy day)

Then again, there is the compressed air, poisoned pellet umbrella: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_umbrella

[Alexires]

I like the dog chain idea. Pity that if you have a dog chain, you have a dog, and probably wont need to use the chain.

But that got me thinking post-apocalyptic (how I love it). Wallets attached to your belt or belt holes with chains. Belts made of chains, or just heavy belts.

I have an old belt from my Mc. Donalds days that has a kind of quick release mechanism (used to great advantage with the assistant manager at times in the back room *wink*). While not heavy duty, other belts could be found or made to be the same, with a quick release mechanism. Get the belt off in under a second, and time counts when in those situations.

Otherwise, you could ride a push bike everywhere and carry one of those combination plastic coated chain locks around. That would make a brutal weapon in a hurry.

While getting a little iffy, business cards can be thrown as a distraction, and contrary to popular opinion, can be throw quite hard. It might just give you that second or 2 to get your belt off, or get a running head start, or even the first punch.

A pocket full of keys on a chain could almost be used as a flail, and would be quite painful as well if struck by it.

[jlwilliams]

I'd like to add a historical note. The Okinawan Karate (Kobudo) weapons we are familiar with today, and which are illegal to carry in most any place, were at one time developed with a similar goal to what we are discussing. The nunchuk, the sai and the tonfa and others are adaptations of agricultural implements in common use then and there. Using them as self defense weapons worked out well because the user didn't have to carry an illegal weapon (swords were off limits to the civilian population) and you were likely to have these tools around you. By practicing with what was at hand anyway, they made themselver safer without placing themselves in legal risk.

The position made in favor of carrying an illegal weapon and being big enought to face the consequences is short sighted. The point of being armed is to protect yourself and your loved ones. If you get caught with a weapon that is a legal problem by itself. you will first have it taken away then be put into an environment where violence is a when not an iff. Stay out of jail and your chances of violent confrontation are small, go to jail and you WILL need to defend yourself. When you are in jail, who feeds your family? Who 'takes care of ' your wife? Carrying a gun with a destroyed number (and posting that on the internet) puts you into more risk than it gets you out of. Think it through and carry something legally defensable.

Last point, I promise. What you can get away with varries dramaticly depending where you live. I have a permit so I carry a pistol, not an option for the OP. Find out what you CAN have. What's the max blade length on a knife? Pepper spray an option? How about a taser? Walking stick? Once you know the maximim legal armament in your jurisdiction, arm up. More importantly, take the lesson of the Okinawan peasantry and practice your martial way with what you have at hand. Fighting with a weapon is like fighting with your hands, with a weapon in them.

[Korimyr the Rat]

If you're any good with your fists at all, a roll of quarters is an excellent force multiplier. They're also a practical necessity for anyone who doesn't own his own clothes washer & dryer.

You can buy a handful of spare keys at most hardware stores, and if you put them on several keyrings it's not difficult to hold the rings in your palm with the keys sticking out between your fingers-- you only really need one or two, and you can practice grabbing them quickly. Even unsharpened, a quick punch to the face or body can put them through skin and convince your attacker you're wielding a knife.

I've never had a police officer pay too much attention to my keys, so if you sharpen them, sharpen the faces instead of the sides. If you artificially tarnish them and add some nicks and dings, they'll look more battered than deliberately modified.

[Alexires]

Korimyr the Rat - I believe the key idea has been talked about before. It would be quite painful for you to punch anything holding keys between your fingers. If you sharpened them, suddenly you do not have plausible deniability.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Korimyr the Rat - I believe the key idea has been talked about before. It would be quite painful for you to punch anything holding keys between your fingers. If you sharpened them, suddenly you do not have plausible deniability.

It is painful, but bearable. I have done this before.

And as I pointed out in my earlier post, it's highly unlikely that the keys will ever be examined that closely-- and artificially "aging" them will make any sharpening appear to be natural wear.

But I apologize for having made a suggestion which has already been discussed.

[Jacks Complete]

Anything used as a weapon will be scrutinised. Use your brain.