Gelatinized ETN/Plasticized ETN

[Hinckleyforpresident]

The purpose of this thread is the discussion of gelatinized and plasticized ETN. The thread “Erythritol Tetranitrate” was getting very lengthy and off topic in places, so I believe a split off thread was needed to really get into another (although similar) topic.

I have had success with gelatinized ETN with nitroglycerin and nitromethane. Reportedly, nitrocellulose works as a great replacement for the nitromethane. Also, I have heard that ETN can be plasticized with mineral oil and vegetable oil much like PETN.

How have any of you plasticized ETN? What compositions have you tried and how have they worked?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Plasticizing and tackifying those materials that exist in a powdered solid have some challenges if what you seek is to have an end result material that presents itself as a putty or "moldable clay-like" mass. Simply adding a base composition will not achieve this feature. In the production of both Semtex and American C4 there is the use of both of the above.

In C4 we saw a use of polybutene. Polybutene is a viscous, non-drying, liquid polymer, which results from the copolymerization of 1- and 2-butene with a small quantity of isobutylene. Polybutene is colorless, has little or no odor, is chemically stable and resists oxidation by light and moderate heat.

An important characteristic in adhesive applications is polybutene’s tackiness, which increases with increased molecular weight. Polybutene acts as both a tackifier and plasticizer and is used to extend the viscosity range and to control the tack and cohesive strength level of adhesives. Polybutene is sold in a wide variety of molecular weights and the viscosity grades range from light oils to highly viscous fluids.

Thus polybutene is not "PIB". PIB is less flexable in it's abilities to provide both of the above elements. I have pointed out previously that ricinoate can be added to polybutene to produce a replica of the Semtex-like putty feel. The typical method is to add a sebicate to polybutene, but sebicates are difficult to find. Ricinoate esters* on the other hand are much easier produced. I tried the methyl and ethyl esters by transesterification reaction (Vogel) of castor oil and methanol/ethanol under reflux. The methyl/ethylricinoate seperates as an oily layer at the top & are saved.
These plasticizers are somewhat less good solvents for PIB and need some 20% of "motoroil"* added for better properties. Seeping of plasticizer is much reduced, but there is no other real advantage that I noticed... (Although I never tried with very low % of plasticizer).

I am now under the opinion that "motor oil"* as read in the patent literature is false. It is a silicone oil; of the type that is used to lube pumps & is synthetic. You can take that to the bank.

Orange versions of Semtex as we know is based on a rubber (styrene-butadiene) tackifier and added plastizer (here is where we hear motor oil again). But I am willing to be it is a ricinoate; as experiments with polymers and added powders indicate that the oil needs to work with the tackifier, not pool away from it. I know someone who has worked with these materials and have learned a bit about them.

NOTE #:
Quote from a 1995 post on a.e.e.
Source is:
"Analysis of Semtex Explosives" J.R.Hobbs.
Chapter 39. p.409-428 in " Advances in Analysis and
Detection of Explosives" edited by Jehuda Yinon
Kluwer Academic Publishers ISBN 0-7923-2138-3 (1993)

Name Semtex H Semtex A
% PETN 49.8 94.3
% RDX 50.2 5.7
Dye Sudan I Sudan IV
Antioxidant N-phenyl-2- N--phenyl-2-
naphthalamine naphthalamine
Plasticizer n-octyl phthalate n-octyl phthalate
butyl citrate butyl citrate
Binder styrene-butadiene styrene-butadiene
rubber rubber

Table 2. Gravimentric Analysis
Sample size 1.0194 1.1061
Weight oil 0.0811 0.0994
% oil by weight 7.9 9.0
weight rubber 0.0920 0.1036
% rubber by weight 9.0 9.4
weight explosives 0.7029 0.7029
[ rest of table omitted ]

In many instances of high PETN percentage (ratio of RETN/RDX) you can have as much as 30% binder and the product will still shoot {& stay in the 7000mps range!}. So what does this mean for ETN???? ETN, if re-crystallized, may be treated like it's chemical cousin PETN in-so-far as the mechanics of it's plastic induced behavious by the addition of the same tackifiers and plastizers.

The point herein is that both energetic materials are flexible, mold-able, sticky, metal cutting industrials, that need both a tackifier and a plastizer to function in this manner. This technique works! It has been developed from both East & West independently to achieve the goal of "plastic explosive".
If you want a true "plastic" then the goal would be a "clay-like" medium to form both strips, cones, whatever and stick! ETN COULD be fine in that role with a tackifier and plastizer, IF it were re-crystallized to maintain consistency, prevent decomposition, & achieve uniformity via crystal shaving in production.


* C. Reimer, 1972, Vogal 1941

[Emil]

It's interesting that you bring this topic up. Plasticization is definitely an appealing topic to me, and though still in early stages of researching it, am very interested in it.

Charles will (or should) remember me bringing up the discussion of silicone oils in a previous post (The PETN post). To cut a long story short, it was basically plasticizing an explosive powder with a silicone oil and a curing agent. Deciding to follow this lead I obtained, (from a patent), I decided to hunt down some silgard 184 two part silicone oil. If this is the correct product, then from what the patent states, it gives a very flexible and heat resistant plastic explosive.

I now have this silicone oil, and after synthesizing some more ETN in the coming week, hope to successfully plasticize it via the silicone oil.

If all goes well and I end up with a suitable product, I will definitely be taking some pictures. One thing that we definitely don't see enough of. I'm looking forward to it. Would be great to end up with the product described in the patent.

Plasticizing purely from explosives (a liquid and a powder) is really something, because unlike a binder and tackifier, a liquid explosive is an energetic material, instead of just being an inert mass. This keeps power nice and high and doesn't dull down the VOD's too much. The problem with this of course is finding a suitable mix with all the given characteristics a plasticizer gives. The main one being that it does not seep and leak out your liquid. Shelf life being another important one.

I've never seen many patents or info on plastic explosives formed just from energetic materials. If this because they really don't work well, or they just haven't been explored yet???

Hinckley:

Well done on your ETN/NG/NM. However, what is the composition like if left for a few days??? Dry and crumbly?? Or does it maintain its moldable clay like composure? If so, then that could be a very interesting find. Let us know about some of its characteristics.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Hinckley:

Well done on your ETN/NG/NM. However, what is the composition like if left for a few days??? Dry and crumbly?? Or does it maintain its moldable clay like composure? If so, then that could be a very interesting find. Let us know about some of its characteristics.

Honestly, I think that the ETN/NG/NM would separate over time. I'm not sure how long it would take, and I don't really want to test it due to the nitroglycerin present.

I think that Charles is right though, a rubber would work better than a liquid explosive, although it's unfortunate. I've always been curious about latex.... Perhaps I will dissolve some in something like naphtha, mix in ETN, and then let the solvent evaporate.

I've read about latex being used as a binder in paints. That's where the idea comes from. Also, it's damn easy to get.

Does anyone know anything about OTC plasticizers? Is there any hope of something like latex working out?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This is a subject I actually did some real reading about over time. The silicone oil is a very unique thing. The product that DuPont used was proprietary. I have not heard of silgard 184 but perhaps it's similar. But I do know that as an OTC formula you can come DAMN CLOSE via polybutene + (methanol/ethanol+caster oil refluxed) a ricinoate which would be chemically equivalent to a sebicate (in the context of this product).

I have seen this work as a demonstration using a alki/metal nitrate as a base crystal to make plastic. I was astounded, it worked so damn well. You wind up with a material that will mold, hold it's shape and stick to moderately clean surfaces.

It (the above illustrated plastic concept) works wonderfully with nitrated polyols. The neat thing here is that you don't loss VoD by having a non-energetic plastizer. It seems strange, I know, but take Semtex for example. Semtex shoots fast no matter if it's "for export" junk with 30% binder or much higher quality Czech domestic military material. That's the truth! Check these patents for substantiation of my posts AND a wealth of material related to our discussion.... US#3296041, 3428502, 3449179. I can find out what the DuPont silicone oil is and will get back with more info. However this enters into a n area of polymer chemistry that may not matter TOO much if the goal is to make a workable "play-dough"-like energetic.

[Emil]

Yes, further information on that DuPont silicone oil would be great, I could then compare it's characteristics to the ones of silgard 184.

You are probably quite right by saying that it should not matter TOO much, because in the Patent that I read about the silgard silicone oil, it states something around the lines that further experimentation is recommended, as lots of other types of silicone oil should work with reasonably comparable results.

I am about to take a look at those patent numbers you posted.

Damn. I just can't wait to try plasticizing some ETN now. ;)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

OK, my source stated that the DuPont product was later manufactured by Fisher scientific as SILICON OIL S159-500. FisherChemicals marketed the material in 1987. A similar (CAS# 6148-62-9) product was not the material DuPont used however.

[nbk2000]

I remember someone mentioned long-ago using silicone vacuum pump oil as a plasticizer.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I also remember that vacuum pump oil proposal and I think it's correct. I also remember that sebicates are used as synthetic lubricants! Which may be a an OTC source as well.
I received the real deal once from a guy and it felt similar to a very thin low viscosity (we are talking REAL thin) white synthetic oil. -{This may be it: Patent 3988249}-

[Hinckleyforpresident]

I haven't been able to get any silicon oil yet, so I made due with vegetable oil today.

The idea came from a Semtex post, where PETN, RDX, and vegetable were mixed in proper proportions to produce a plastic explosive. So today I tried ETN and vegetable oil (alas, no RDX). The ratio that I used was 11:3 ETN:vegetable oil. The end product looks quite good, it's nearing the clay like goal, it sticks to clean dry surfaces, and it's less sensitive than straight ETN.

I was unable to detonate it with a hammer strike or a blowtorch while contained. This stuff also burns a lot more evenly than ETN does on it's own.

I haven't tried detonating it yet seeing as how it was dark when I made it. Hopefully I'll detonate some tomorrow or at very least Tuesday. If all goes well, it won't make a substantial impact on power.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

I just got back from testing some ETN/vegetable oil.

Turns out that it does in fact drop the power, as well as its ability to fully detonate.

The first charge I tried was 18 grams (molded into a little man), it went off with a sharp crack and bang and left a small hole in the dirt. The second charge was 28 grams in a conical shaped charge. The cone (coke can) fully inverted and got all mangled up upon impact with the sheet steel target. Upon closer inspection I found little pieces of unexploded ETN.

All in all, the vegetable oil plastique does NOT work with ETN.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Earlier today I attempted a ETN gel which I used before, this time it was in a shaped charge though. The gel was made with ETN, nitroglycerin, and nitromethane in a 58:32:10 ratio. 50 grams was used.

This ratio has worked the best by far out of the ETN gels I have tried. I believe that this is because its density is about 2 g/cm^3. The density is so high because some of the ETN dissolves in the nitroglycerin.

Upon detonation, I noticed a shockwave shoot across the ground. Also, it was very loud. The target of the SC was 1/4 inch steel plate. The charge did not penetrate it, although it put a 3 inch wide 1/3 inch deep dent in it. There is a second deeper impression in the center of the large dent. A prescription pill bottle was used as the casing, and soda can aluminum was used as the liner. The standoff was 1.5 X the diameter.

Here is a link to the video of it, it also has pictures in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeTybJkr9Bs

I'm not post whoring right? The last two posts have been by me, but they are about different things and they are separated by a day each. If I'm wrong please let me know and just remove this post.

[nbk2000]

I noticed that your product looks rather lumpy, which is never good for a consistent shockwave. Also, as others mentioned, simply setting the detonator in the explosive, without perfect centering, doesn't do a thing for ya either. :(

[Charles Owlen Picket]

DuPont sells Deta-Sheet, a sheet plastic of consistent flexibility (but does not join/stick). With it there is a circular (available on the internet) that goes into real depth on how to initiate it. There is a right way and a wrong way. If it's not detonated correctly, the stuff is worthless. But if it is detonated correctly the sheet can get into cracks in cement and do a Hell of a lot of work.

The point being that if you study the art of initiating "unique" explosives you may see how to make small resources do large amounts of work*. Deta-sheet is a fantastic example of this "art". It's rules are flexible enough to apply to a variety of venues.


* I use the term "unique" as to describe a non-bulk form of material in this context.

NOTE: Spelling correction of material deta not "data" (red-face embarrassment here)

[nbk2000]

Deta-Sheet, not Data-Sheet.

http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/26543/2118254520099886432S425x425Q85.jpg

[Bert]

Hinckley, a bit of reading- "Evaluation of Improvised Shaped Charges"http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=2219&pid=85314

This is in regard to cylindrical and unlined charges, but you will note the data given on degraded performance from off center initiation.

I can't find the images of shock wave disruption from faults/off center initiation that I recall seeing here years ago. Anyone know where they're at?

[LibertyOrDeath]

Related to Charles' earlier mention of styrene butadiene, I happened upon the following post at Science Madness and thought it was worth mentioning here:

A very simple and extremely effective (cheap too) plastic is ETN and Styrene Butadiene. This in a 90:10 ratio is virtually the same feel and performance as PETN / RDX - Styrene Butadiene. Absolutely no bubbles, fantastic brisance, and safety. Essentially the same as a commercial product. Styrene Butadiene -=IS=- what has been used time and again in commercial plastics. It molds so easily around the cone and interior, receiving the cap in a stable manner that consistency is maintained and one can concentrate on the design element exclusively!
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=12

[cyf531]

I have tried 15 grams of 11:4 ETN/Vegetable oil with a 1 gram ETN detonator and it blew a 2x4 right in half, also it made a nice shockwave on the ground. I'm 100% positive it was a full det.