Defending a Higher Power

[Rbick]

I noticed some of you guys really have it out for people who believe in a higher power, such as myself (Kaydon, I know you'll be all over this one :D). My favorite is the flow chart found in this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=6885). I would encourage you to read my post in full before making your decision, as it may be quite different than what you expect coming from someone who believes in a God.

It seems most people, when they think of religion, go directly to radical and militant Muslims and the Crusades and mindless verse quoting robots. I would like to clarify and put forth my evidence of why I believe in a higher power. It has nothing to do with being Catholic, Luthern, Buddhists, whatever. I don't hate people who do not believe in a God and I don't hate those who believe in Him differently, despite what most people think about those who call themselves "religious". As a matter of fact, I wouldn't consider myself religious, as you can't really bring God into what people have made "religion" out to be these days. For example, with the formation of the Roman Catholic church thousands of years ago, they took God and replaced him with rules made up by themselves.

I, as well as many other people who believe in a God, do not ignore contradicting evidence. I have spent hours and hours pouring over physics and chemistry literature as well as philosphy and psychology in an attempt to better understand this universe and how people think. I do believe in a big bang, and I do believe that the Universe could very well be 10 billion years old. It is hard to dispute this with our understanding of microwave background radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_background_radiation)and the red shift of light as it travels from a source. The Bible, for instance, does not delve into these details, and there are many ways to interpret it specifically. But why is it so hard to believe that something of higher power started this event and is responsible for the way things are today? I don't think I'll be judged to harshly on believing differently than some on the age of the universe (by God that is).

One of my biggest reasons for believing in a God is intelligent design. Everything on our planet, and universe for that matter, works in such a unique fashion, it is hard to believe it could ever be by accident. Everything is linked and works in unison. Even explosives and how they are synthesized and decompose is a work of art, all of which is far to complex for me to grasps fully. Trillions of atoms forming covalent and ionic bonds and then releasing their stored energy in miliseconds, its just insane!

Also, science in no way disproves a God. To me, it points me more towards an intelligent designer. Evolution, which is taught as scientific fact, cannot actually be proven. Advances in microbiology have actually begun to disprove much of what evolution said to be true. So when you chose evolution and science over God, you're actually having just as much if not more faith in science than I do in a God. When you can prove there is no God, let me know. But in order to do that, you would have to know everything, which not only goes against all practicality of science (uncertainty principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) for one example), but also against your own belief, since knowing everything would mean you are God...

So what will you have faith in? That there is a God that created science and the universe we live in, or an accident that just happen to end up here with us, with no creator.

I would also like to dispell the idea that people who believe in God hate people who don't and those who don't believe the same thing. Yes this can be said of religious people, and I think they give me/us a bad name. If you don't believe in God, its cool, I'll still love you, but I won't hesitate to argue my opinion. With so many different interpretations of God, its is impossible to believe the exact same way as anyone else. That is why I have personalized it. My walk with God is my own, and I am in no place to judge those who see differently. Its not my job to judge! I personally have chosen the teachings of Jesus Christ as my example. He taught compassion and love for fellow men,(regardless of whether they believed in him) and many of his teachings are very applicable even today. I try to make him my example, and I would consider myself a good person. Of course I'm not perfect, but I wouldn't say I'm a detriment to society either. We all need a model to follow, one of morals and values. I think this is due to being the only known life form with a conscience. Animals don't need morals and values, since they just have instinct to operate and survive on. Some may pick society, or their father, I just have chosen a different path, which is one that leads to a higher power. The interesting thing is, I've never been more happy about living. So that, in short, is why I believe in a God. I don't consider myself Luthern or whatever denomination you can think of, I just think of myself as a "believer".

So bring forth your opinions. I thought this would be an interesting topic, since chemistry and physics could definatley be made part of the conversation. Discuss why you believe the Universe is 10 billion or only 10,000 years old, or why you don't or do believe in a God. This topic always gets people going :cool:

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? Since the deity could not be proven does that mean it does not exist? Science would be in real trouble if that were the case in other areas. {The neuron postulate in human thinking theory]

[Enkidu]

One of my biggest reasons for believing in a God is intelligent design. Everything on our planet, and universe for that matter, works in such a unique fashion, it is hard to believe it could ever be by accident. Everything is linked and works in unison. Even explosives and how they are synthesized and decompose is a work of art, all of which is far to complex for me to grasps fully. Trillions of atoms forming covalent and ionic bonds and then releasing their stored energy in miliseconds, its just insane!

You must believe in one of two things. You must believe that matter/energy has existed for all eternity, or you must believe that an omnipotent, omnipresent Entity that exists outside of our spacetime continuum, and who, in fact, created it.

It's much more logical to believe in the Entity.

[nbk2000]

Science is the religion of Man.

Supernatural deities are for unevolved savages afraid of the eternal darkness of the grave.

[Enkidu]

Science is the religion of Man

... who must deceive himself or occupy his thoughts so that he thinks not of the grave.

Ah, if only Lucretius was right. In truth, if the grave was eternal nothingness, we would have nothing to fear.

Let us return to science and logic and away from hypotheses and generalizations!

---

When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- Sherlock Holmes

Rbick's post goes a long way to defining the impossible.

And that's why I believe in an Entity. There are simply no other options.

[black mamba]

I'm sure many of you have seen this in the news a while ago.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/

ABSTRACT
This paper argues that at least one of the following propositions is true: (1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation. It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that we will one day become posthumans who run ancestor-simulations is false, unless we are currently living in a simulation. A number of other consequences of this result are also discussed.


Do you believe that this could be possible?

[nbk2000]

The Universe is running in a virtual machine, eh? What happens when the power goes out, or the VM is terminated?

[ccw8076]

A friend of mine told me recently about a theory concerning God and his works. I do not stand on either side of this issue, but I thought this might be interesting.

Also this is not meant to be insulting to anyone or their beliefs, it is just a representation.
Lets pretend for a minute that instead of an invisible omnipotent being, mankind worshiped a milk carton.

Lets say that you needed 5000 dollars for a payment... for the house.
You pray to the milk carton to help you get the money.
The milk carton will answer in one of three ways; yes, no, and wait.

On yes, it is possible that tomorrow, you pick the winning lottery numbers and your prize is 5000 dollars.
On no, you simply don't get the money you need, and are forced to find other means.
On wait, you get an extension on your payment, and in a couple of months, you get promoted in your job and the new salary pays 5000 more than your old job.

The conclusion however, is that no matter which one of the three events occurs, would you really praise a milk carton for helping you win the lottery, scorn the carton for not helping you at all, or remain undecided because the holy milk carton helped you, but caused you to lower your credit score in the process?

Probably not.

Anyway, I thought that was interesting

[nbk2000]

Did the milk carton exist before man, or was it created by man?

Since there are no fossil records of milk cartons predating man, I would assume that man came before the milk carton, thus the impossibility of the milk carton actually being the creator of the universe, or even a predecessor. :p

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I think were we get screwed up is man's interpretations of the writing on the milk carton. As well as (perhaps) those men who purport to speak for the milk carton....

[LibertyOrDeath]

Oh man...get ready for a long post. :)

I was raised to be a Christian from day one, but I became an agnostic after many years of serious questioning that led to a mountain of doubts.

If you want to read a superb essay that covers many of the problems I have with belief in a personal God, the following is recommended. It's a bit long, but well worth it:

"Why I Am Agnostic" by Robert Ingersoll (1896):
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

I'm not quite an atheist, as I can't rule out that there isn't some kind of Higher Power (or even more than one), existing outside of the universe, that's responsible for creating space, time, the laws of physics -- the whole picture. It's equally possible that the laws of physics, or some kind of meta-laws that gave rise to the laws of physics and the universe, are the only self-existent things. So I reserve judgment on that question.

If such a Higher Power does exist, it needn't be a personal, anthropomorphic God of the sort taught by the major religions of the world. We don't know anything about the nature of such a being -- there are too many possibilities.

Actually, there's a guy named Christopher Langan (featured in the press as one of the smartest people in America for his super-high IQ) who claims to have proved that the universe itself is conscious and is essentially God (this is a form of pantheism). The basis of this claimed proof is mathematics, logic, and a multi-scientific approach, and it's called the "Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe." It's not without its critics, and while I'm not terribly conversant with it, I suspect it is flawed for reasons I don't want to spend much time on here. But regardless of its accuracy, it demonstrates just how far removed from mainstream religion the truth might be.

As for the Bible, the Koran, and other "inspired writings" -- well, anyone can write a book or a collection of books, but if that writing is inspired, then I want to see some evidence of such. In the Bible, we read:

-- That the sky is actually a solid dome (a "firmament") into which the stars are embedded. This firmament also has floodgates that open when it rains, letting out all the water that makes the sky appear blue.

-- That there was once a flood that covered the entire planet, but somehow didn't leave behind any geological evidence, like a stratum that would also have to exist everywhere on earth. Also, that two of every creature on earth once rode in a wooden boat! Jesus refers to this story in the New Testament in such a way that suggests he believed in its truth, which harms his credibility. (In fact, the Hebrew flood myth was probably ripped off from other ancient flood myths. Here's the evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziusudra)

-- That evolution didn't occur when there's no reasonable doubt that it did. See this website for more on that: http://www.talkorigins.org/

-- That a "perfectly just" God punishes children for the sins of their parents (in the Old Testament). That justice is satisfied by the punishment of an innocent person in place of the guilty (New Testament).

-- Later in the Bible we see the threat of hell instead of the threat of having your children punished for your sins after your death. But how can finite beings, with finite knowledge and wisdom and finite willpower, possibly commit sins that deserve infinite punishment?

-- That Judas died in two ways after betraying Jesus: (1) he hanged himself, (2) he tripped, fell, and his guts spilled out.

These are just the tip of the iceberg. The Bible is FULL of contradictions. Many of them are cataloged here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Some of these contradictions can be resolved, but there are plenty that cannot while passing the laugh test.

As for intelligent design, it's a hell of a lot more reasonable than creationism. The problem with ID, however, is that it seeks to repeat the mistakes of the past. Specifically, it seeks to attribute to the supernatural what science simply hasn't yet figured out.

Consider this. There was once a time when anyone who had uncontrollable spasms and couldn't help but spout profanity was considered to be possessed by demons. After all, what else could cause such behavior? Well, eventually science caught up and found the problem: Tourette's Syndrome.

Now, what if mankind had simply thrown up its hands and said, "We don't understand the cause of this, and it's too complicated for us to figure out; therefore, it must have a supernatural cause"? Then we'd still be burning witches instead of doing solving problems through naturalistic science.

Moreover, if nature was designed, then whoever designed it sure wasn't a very nice God. A great deal of needless suffering is "designed" into nature -- innocent animals dying of disease, starvation, being eaten alive. This can't be blamed on mankind -- unless we're to believe that tapeworms and viruses dined on fruit and were purely benign until after the "fall of man."

For a satirical but powerful look at ID, see here: http://winace.andkon.com/designed_organisms/

The point is that nature, while appearing beautiful in many ways, is also extremely ugly, vicious, and cruel in other ways. If it was created, then this was the will of the Creator.

It's also worth pointing out that much design in nature is suboptimal:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jury-rigged.html

One last argument needs to be brought up, and that's the classic "Problem of Evil." How is it possible for a God who is (1) perfectly holy, (2) omniscient, and (3) omnipotent, to create a universe in which evil exists?

The short answer: It's not, in spite of the best efforts of apologists to explain otherwise.

The long answer: In order for moral evil to arise in the universe -- in mankind, rebellious angels, or elsewhere -- it must have a cause. That cause could be pride, free will, or some other characteristic of the agent in which it arises. But ultimately, who is responsible for this? If Satan fell because of pride, then who gave him that pride? Who made the flawed goods?

If God created everything, then God is responsible for everything. If he made creatures knowing that they would turn evil, then it's his fault that evil exists.

Here's probably the most important point: God could have made creatures that still had free will but that would never freely choose to sin.

As an analogy, consider that each of us has perfectly free will to burn ourselves by touching a hot stove. No one is stopping any of us from doing this, yet we can do it at any time. Why don't we do it? Because it's painful!

So...why didn't God make sin immediately painful, rather than threatening us with future eternal punishment? That would have solved a lot of problems, and it would have kept people out of hell! If making sin instantly painful would have violated man's free will, then why doesn't the threat of hell do the same?

Here's yet another way to look at it: If free will is so important to God, then why won't people be capable of sinning in heaven? What will prevent them from doing so? And why couldn't God have made it so that everyone was in heaven from the very beginning, with no sin? If God really loved his creatures, then this is what he would have done. There would be no need for anyone to suffer on earth (man or animal) or suffer hellfire for eternity.

As long as this post has been, it really just scratches the surface. Like the Israel lobby's stranglehold on the US government, this is a subject I've been thinking and reading about for many years. Every single line of inquiry I've followed on this issue leads me to the same answer: there's no evidence for the existence of any (personal) God, and thus no reason to believe in one.

[Rbick]

Very good points Charles. I think thats were the Crusades can be used as an excellent example. The idea of killing everyone in the "holy land" for not believing the same thing might be taking God's intentions out of context. Instead of being humble and content, humans tend to lean towards actions that will give them more power and/or fame. Or any other selfish purpose you can think of.

What really irritates me is when an individual or group of people interprets scripture and claims that it is the only way, and if you don't follow it you go to hell. With all the translations and differences in interpretation, it would be just about IMPOSSIBLE to believe in the exact same thing. My feelings on the New Testament would not be the same as the interpretation of someone in an African Tribe in the Nigerian desert. This could be due to the association of different symbols with certain interpretations that are common in our particular culture. For example, Eastern cultures use metaphors to describe situations and events whereas in the West, we use more straight forward descriptions. For example, someone in South Western Asia may say:

You're hair is as beautiful as a heard of goats cascading the mountain side

Where someone in the US would say:

Your hair is the most beautiful I have ever seen

While the first seems rather comical, both are basically saying the same thing. But where goats may be used in a compliment, we may take it as insulting or silly.

Basically, I'm saying your culture will have a huge impact on how you interpret information. My wife and I don't even believe in the exact same things, and I consider us to be very close. There are of course general guide lines of morals and rules that would apply to anyone, regardless of interpretation, but people make it far too narrow to be reasonable. So I heard this joke and found it amusing.

A man dies and goes to heaven and is greeted by St. Peter at the gates. Peter begins to show the man around, explaining where things are and how to get around. The man sees a group of people in the distance, barley visible from where everyone else is.
The man asks St. Peter "Hey, who is that over there?"
St. Peter replies, "Oh, thats the Baptists. They still think they are the only ones up here."

LibertyorDeath, I just read your post, apparently we were posting at the same time. You bring up some very relevant issues, and provide some good links as well. The issue of free will has always been a point of discussion, and again it can be interpreted differently. Obviously my idea of the point of free will and suffering differ from yours. My view of it is, if we were made not to sin and Angels couldn't have free will, then we'd be asking ourselves why it is so easy to believe in God, and everything would be painless and simple. There wouldn't be much of a point to life. Life without suffering would be like life without air. As much as it sucks, it must exists and is part of this world. I also consider how differently everything would appear to a being that created everything that exists. I can't even begin to fathom how differently my view on suffering, or our universe in general would be. So I chose not to try and think like a God, but I try to understand it. Sorry if I'm not explaining this well, but its getting to the point were my vocabulary lacks the extend with which to describe my own feelings and thoughts... If you know what I mean :confused:

As for contradictions in the Bible, I see it as a Book written and then translated by imperfect people. But the Bible is not my God, as that would be considered Idoltry. And I totally agree with you that some things in the Old Testament are not even close to accurate or applicable to today. For example, in Leviticus, the second book of the Bible, it is apparently a sin to wear 2 pieces of clothing made of different cloth! This is indeed laughable today, as we'd all be on a path straight to hell. However, this is where I turn to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He explained how these things where and are ridiculous, and how the food a man eats does not make him clean or unclean (for one example). The cool thing is, all of his teachings can be applied to today, 2000 years later. Whether you believe in a God or not, his teachings are an excellent model to follow. Anyway, this is the reason why my beliefs in a higher power extend far past just reading the Bible.

[Gammaray1981]

LibertyOrDeath: You make good points, especially on the idea of "God" being infinitely fair, just, and knowledgeable. You seem skeptical about the concept of intelligent design as it relates to this, however. It strikes me that, far from being contradictory, the problem could simply be one of interpretation. The cry of many a small child; "It's not fair!" demonstrates this, a little - their view of the world has a different form of fairness/justices than that of their parents.

There is no indication (that I have been able to find) that God(s) is/are in any way mentally structured similarly to humans. It may simply be that the idea of "disproportional" punishments has never occurred to them.

Equally, assuming (in my opinion correctly, but it has been argued otherwise) that evolution is factual, as is the significant age of the universe, then intelligent design need not be ruled out by the current nature of the universe - it started a long time ago, and really, the complicated bit is the physical and chemical laws, which haven't changed since. Anything able to craft something this complicated probably (in my opinion) has a very long lifespan, if it bothers with time at all. So, setting up a complex bit of maths, and providing enough energy to start things off, probably wouldn't have been that hard for it. Our universe was just an interesting diversion for a few billion years.

[Kaydon]

I hear the same stuff from a friend of mine "I'm not religious, but I believe in "God""

Wow! You surprised me there, most people who believe in such entities think the world is 12,000 years old and that isn't even possible.

Intelligent Design is Unintelligent, it's false. Evolution has been proven and is evident today, look at the sub-Saharan africans and their less advanced brains compared to their brethern here in the States, which equally is less evolved when compared with a Western White or European.

People too commonly associate Evolution with Darwin, many advances have been made since his writings and theories.

You say prove to you there is no God, I say prove to me there is. Owned. :p

Why do I need to have "faith?" There's no reason to. I live my life and that's it, hell I don't even want to have an afterlife, I'm sick of living already!

Well, most religious people I encounter try and cast and hex on those who don't believe in their same bullshit.

More wars have been waged in the name of God, more people have been murdered and executed in the name of God, than for any other reason, and God is my friend? Ha! Crapola!

People like Bush hide behind a facade of religion, that alone, of itself, makes me want to distance myself as far away as possible from any connection with religion.

and here we go again, the "you'll be happy if you believe in God" I'm already happy, I don't need a diety with fancy spooky language in his "Bible" that's designed to brainwash the gullible in order to be happy.


Here's the deal, the day the nigger no longer exists, then I'll believe in God ;)


I'm pressed for time so this is why it's short and less detailed than I would like.. I'll have a more detailed response later, or Sunday, paintball tomorrow.

[Gammaray1981]

"Intelligent Design is Unintelligent, it's false. Evolution has been proven and is evident today, look at the sub-Saharan Africans and their less advanced brains compared to their brethren here in the States, which equally is less evolved when compared with a Western White or European."

If you had actually READ my post, you would see quite plainly that I stated that Intelligent Design does not preclude evolution. Creationism, in the sense of "all things were created exactly as they now are, about mid last millennium" is patently false. However, Intelligent Design, which merely postulates an intelligent ROOT cause to the universe, leaves room for evolution - things need not have been designed as they are now, but it is impossible to tell whether or not they were designed as they were, say, at the beginning of the universe (so far as we now know roughly when that was), and assigned the laws of physics to keep everything ticking over. Everything from there, so far as anyone can tell, could be an exercise in "what happens if...".

On a slightly more humorous note, it is possible that, given it probably would have a very different concept of time, the creator took a coffee break after femtosecond one, and simply hasn't come back yet. (Hence the joke: "Hey everyone, I'm back, did I miss anything? OH SHIT!" - God)

Just a point to add: Whether or not there is/was a creator is fundamentally irrelevant. The question of an afterlife is slightly more relevant, but the answer is probably "no", as that would need a new branch of physics - electrical charge patterns (nervous system et al) existing outside any form of charge carrier.

[Kaydon]

I wasn't talking to you.

Guess I should've quoted, but my post was directed at Rbick.

[ccw8076]

There is another interesting theory about god that I have heard.

The gist of is whether or not god realizes he has created the universe and life. It is possible that god really was arm wrestling with his roommate chugs( god I love family guy) and actually did create the universe; but he didn't know it. It's possible that god accidentally created heaven and earth and now is off doing god stuff without knowing or caring that we exist.

Personally I think it interesting the the universe for all it's vast size contains a finite amount of energy, and therefore matter. So eventually when the outward force of the universe outweighs the energy available, it will collapse again into a huge ball of matter and energy waiting for a spark to set it off: god anybody?

Perhaps off topic, but it is also interesting to me about the environmentalists. Earth has a finite amount of energy available in it, and since life generates heat which is released to the universe, the earth will eventually be destroyed anyway.

[Kaydon]

I apologize for my late response, been a tad busy with things. Anyways...

I noticed some of you guys really have it out for people who believe in a higher power, such as myself (Kaydon, I know you'll be all over this one ). My favorite is the flow chart found in this thread.

I don't have it out for you, or religious folks, but from my experience they condemn anyone who doesn't believe, with the exception of a few. I found that flow chart using StumbleUpon, as one of my interests for it to search for is Atheism.

It seems most people, when they think of religion, go directly to radical and militant Muslims and the Crusades and mindless verse quoting robots.

I don't go directly to them for fuel, but isn't it true that their belief is causing major problems in the U.S. and aboard? You can't deny that.

But why is it so hard to believe that something of higher power started this event and is responsible for the way things are today? I don't think I'll be judged to harshly on believing differently than some on the age of the universe (by God that is).

Maybe because there's no evidence for it? Read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. It's a masterpiece.

One of my biggest reasons for believing in a God is intelligent design. Everything on our planet, and universe for that matter, works in such a unique fashion, it is hard to believe it could ever be by accident. Everything is linked and works in unison. Even explosives and how they are synthesized and decompose is a work of art, all of which is far to complex for me to grasps fully. Trillions of atoms forming covalent and ionic bonds and then releasing their stored energy in miliseconds, its just insane!

It's not an "accident," I believe NBK said in the "Is there a God?" thread, "infinite events in an infinite universe during infinite time that resulted in you sitting at your computer believing in a non-existant supreme being." You believe God planned every chemical reaction? I can't fathom that being possible. Even by a "supreme" being.

Evolution, which is taught as scientific fact, cannot actually be proven

It can't? If we're all the same, and there is no evolution, then why is the negro so much dumber than the dumbest White? Explain that. Explain how come the negro has never invented a damned thing? How come the negro has never benefited society in the way the White man, or even Asian man has? Could it be due to genetics? Which would mean the negro is less evolved than the White man ;) The negro can't even cultivate his own crops, he needs Whitey do that.

http://www.duke.org/library/race/african101facts.html

Evolution exists. How about new species found ON LAND? It's possible we just never saw them before, but it's also possible they evolved from another species.

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/ :D

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/

http://www.saynotogod.org/

So what will you have faith in? That there is a God that created science and the universe we live in, or an accident that just happen to end up here with us, with no creator

Why do I need to have faith in something? Why can't I just live my life, God-free and Religion-free, the way I want to? I don't care about death, I'm not afraid to die. A lot of people say that, but really are terrified to die. I am not.I don't fear dying and dancing with the Devil if such exists, and I don't care if I die and go no where, just rot away in a steel coffin.

If I'm to have faith in something, I have faith that the Founding Fathers knew what was best for America. If I'm going to have faith in something, I'm going to have faith that my Sawzall will cut through this 2" diameter 1.50" wall steel tubing. If I'm going to have faith in something, I'm going to have faith that people will vote for Ron Paul. What I'm not going to have faith in is some deity in the sky that can't be proven to exist

People look to God because they're scared, you're scared. You are, don't deny it. Hence why you're playing the "what will you have faith" card.

He taught compassion and love for fellow men,(regardless of whether they believed in him) and many of his teachings are very applicable even today.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4526/christianityexplained00ui7.jpg

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9527/bemorelikejesushx0.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6872/intellegentzoole2.jpg

Pics I had on my hard drive.

[Rbick]

I'm not going to make this a long one, due to the fact there is obviously no convincing you otherwise. It seems to be a difference in opinion on the definition of "supreme being" and "infinte univerise". But I'm glad you understand that there are people who believe in God who don't condemn and don't hate, one of those being me.

By the way, your picture proves nothing to my quote:
He taught compassion and love for fellow men,(regardless of whether they believed in him) and many of his teachings are very applicable even today.

I also found it very disrepectful. How 'bout if I put up a picture of Darwin getting stabbed with a knife, or maybe your parents getting killed, and a little quote that says:

Darwin thinks we all came out of a single one celled organism that appeared out of thin air, grew legs and had sex with a retarded fish frog. Then that fish frog screwed a monkey and had a retard baby so thats why it got to live. Then that retard baby had sex with an ape and now you're here. Yeah, makes perfect sense. (Courtesy of South Park :D)

Of course, this is dumbing down Darwin's entire theory, but thats what the caption of your picture did to my beliefs as well. And I don't think evolution is completely wrong. Microevolution is actually proven. That certainly doesn't deter me from a God.

If I'm to have faith in something, I have faith that the Founding Fathers knew what was best for America

Constitution and morals based on religious freedom, specifically Christianity. Hmmmm...

People look to God because they're scared, you're scared. You are, don't deny it. Hence why you're playing the "what will you have faith" card.

I'm not afraid of dying, I have proven that already in combat. Ever been there? What I'm afraid of is living without a purpose.

Why do I need to have faith in something? Why can't I just live my life, God-free and Religion-free, the way I want to?

Go ahead, I'm not forcing anything on you or judging you. You seem to be the one passing judgement on me :(

I can't fathom that being possible. Even by a "supreme" being.
Of course you can't fathom it. Don't you think the one who created the entire UNIVERSE might be a little smarter than you?

Anyway, thats my reponse. Turned out a little longer than I expected and I have class tomorrow! Pateintly waiting your rebuttle ;)

[Kaydon]

You'd be correct in the assertion that you're not going to convince me otherwise. I'm a committed Atheist.

The majority of the Founding Fathers weren't Christians, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson, not a one had professed a belief in Christianity.

"It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to Infidelity." - Abraham Lincoln.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin.

http://freethought.homestead.com/America.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

http://ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3107.htm

http://atheistrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/07/america-is-not-christian-nation.html

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_ncn.html

Gotta love Google.

I advocate religious freedom, but I'm against any sort of religious teaching in schools, I'm against those bastards that go door-to-door, I'm against televangelist, I'm for separation of Church and State, I'm pro-Abortion.

"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

Purpose? Your purpose is just like everyone else's, you live and then you die. You may do something worthwhile in life, you may not. Your life is the same as everyone else's, you live and then you die. Everyone dies, but few truly live.

I have no desire for an afterlife anyway. When I die, I'm going to sit there lifeless feeding the worms. The way it should be. My epitaph will read "Here's another meal for the Oligochaeta" :)

Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Religion has convinced people there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do every day, and he has a list of ten things he doesn't want you to do and if you do any of these ten things he has a special place for you full of fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money. :rolleyes:

Tell three of them right off the bat to a room of lawyers, judges and politicians. "Thou shalt not steal", "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and "Thou shalt not lie" :D

I am not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion, I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale.

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." - Christopher Hitchens

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

"To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition. " - Woody Allen

[Secong Nature]

These are several rebuttals that I have come up with to some arguments made in this thread.

First the whole 'God making evil' idea. It is a fact that there is no such thing as darkness, merely an absence of light, therefore evil can be seen as a lack of God.
This may seem the idea of omnipresence disproved, but God could exist in a place, just not be actively contributing (it's like trying to prove that there are people on these forums which are not members).
Then this must mean that God cannot be omnipotent if he cannot eliminate evil with his presence, he quite possibly could, but where would be the fun? Say you could make an explosive or pyrotechnic device, perfect every time with no time spent making or getting materials. What's the point? All you could do is basically conjure bangs at will, a good party trick but one thats gets repeditive very fast.
You'd be better off making it yourself, going through learning curves, getting experience and fun from the procedure and going 'Oh fuck!' every once in a while than just getting instant 100% goods every time you want.
I see God as pretty much the same, he lets us have free will because he wants it that way.

Another point I make is that every atheist is agnostic. An atheist is basically someone who believes in scientific evidence, so then if someone can up with inarguable scientific evidence of a God then the logical thing to do would be to start believing.

Of course man has rarely shown himself as a logical beast.
And Kaydon, in my experience elitism and arrogance are traits of smaller, stupid men with inferiority complex issues, so please refrain from making generalising racist comments.

[nbk2000]

Why someone wants to bring up religion on an E&W board and fuck up a perfectly good thing, I don't know.