Paintball Incendinary Rounds

[SKS]

Would it be possible to convert a normal paintball into a mini grenade round. You could fill it with napalm and some chemical that will ingnite it on contact with something hard? Any ideas? Would be very nice if it worked.

[Mr Cool]

White phosphorous and petrol. Will ignite in air, once a portion of the WP has been exposed by the petrol evapourating off.
There are no safe compounds that will ignite when hit on a hard surface, and most things that are shock sensitive will detonate, not ignite.
Is fusing the device out of the question? If you didn't need a rapid rate of fire, and you put in a bit of effort, it would be easy to have the fuse ignite just as it left the barrel. This could then set fire to some sort of delay, which would ignite the main filler when the ball burst.
If you don't mind a fused device I'll post a few ideas I have brewing...

[Agent Blak]

That would lauch little bit size "Molotov Cocktails"... interesting. you could lauch a better payload than a fire bomb with a paint ball gun. use a pistol wit the 12g CO2 and load pepper in it(the Pork Patrol uses it)...you get the idea..


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A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Agent Blak]

You could also just use jelled gas or something similiar; then have a one of 15 paint balls sand with a lighter flint. that would do it I am sure

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[BoB-]

It depends, can you find a highly flammable liquid that has no solvent propertys? Ordinary water will eat through the casing on any paintball.

[PYRO500]

paintball paint is oil based, how about motor oil?

[endotherm]

don't put any impact sensitive rounds into a paintball gun, the force of gas that could come out of a paintball gun feels like a punch, i turned the velocity all the way up on my custom 98, took the barel off and shot the gas at my hand, and i though there was like a ball in the detent or something, but it was just air, it would definitely set off sensitive things.

[SKS]

How about making a custom .68 caliber ball out of a mold. Using wax or something along those lines. It would be more stable than gelatin.

Also a fuse would be hard and it might possibly go out with the rush of CO2 coming out of the gun.

[BaDSeeD]

I had to read this.... just because.
But this sure is a fucked up idea.

I doubt that a paintball sized round, whether filled with explosive, or a burning fuel would be that effective. There just isnt enough capacity. I say scale it up to spud gun size, with ammo the size of tennis balls, or at least racket balls... and then you might be on to something.



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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

[PYRO500]

what about a paintball stuffed with AP or silver nitrate for an explosive or ignitor bullet use silver nitrate

[Minami_Sasake]

Perhaps if you filled your paintballs with gasoline or napalm and then fixed a gas torch to the end of your barrel? The flame from the torch gets very hot and should ignite the paintballs as they leave the barrel. You would need a very well ported barrel so that the carbon dioxide won't blow out the flame.


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Day must fade to night,
Night must give in to sunrise,
I watch, silently.

~A Haiku, Minami Sasake

[endotherm]

the paintball would leave the barrel in excess of 300 fps, the paintball would only be exposed to the blowtorch for miniscule fractions of a second, and would not be exposed to the flame for long enought to light it,and it would go out soon after it left the barrel if it did, and if you dont mind having pieces of stainless steel barrel embedded in your face i wouldnt put AP in a paintball

[This message has been edited by endotherm (edited June 19, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

AP in a paint Ball Eh?
I think I will give that one a go...
*wink*

[Ctrl_C]

nothing says it has to be spherical. you can even use things that dont seal with the barrel in some paintball guns. in some, the bolt moves forward with enough force that it will propel anything a fair distance. for example, i once put a chapstick tube in mine and tilted the gun back to it rested on the bolt. even though it didnt make a seal with the barrel, the bolt pushed it out well enough.

[Ezikiel]

guys ...I have tested a mixture that is shock sensitive but burns off in a flash. A mixture of KNO3 and red Phosphrous which is moistened by alcohol or acetone and wrapped in Al foil. throw this mix on a wall and it gives the effect of an electric spark. And how about take a valve out of a cheap cigarette lighter and glve it into (epoxy) a rubber dart of a bottle. Fill the bottle with a little conc. H2SO4 and dart the bottle and epoxy it (seal it). Now fill the bottle up with butane gas and stick a paper towel which had be saturated with a solution of KCLO3 and Sugar. After impact bottle breaks ..... pressure sprays the acid on the paper towel and ignites the gas .... Volla .. Big fire ball....

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"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

[Ezikiel]

Suggestions, comments, questions people.
I need feedback to learn.

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"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

[madog]

i think filling a paintball with ap, that phosphorus mix or any other sensitive high explosive would be a good way to get chunks of a paintball gun in your face.

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"True freedom is not without anarchy"

[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 29, 2001).]

[madog]

actualy, what may be good and fairly safe would be to fill it up with strike anywhere match heads. and maybe some flash. but that phosforus stuff sounds realy sensitive.

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"True freedom is not without anarchy"

[Monkeyman666]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Agent Blak:
AP in a paint Ball Eh?
I think I will give that one a go...
*wink*</font>

I would not give it a go, do you know what squiges are for?? When a regular paint ball breaks open in your barrel upon firing. Just think of what the results would be like if that happened with an ap filled one & the shock detonated it in your barrel? I can not stop you from doing it, but can give you come advice if you are. Oil you barrel well.




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Monkeyman

[bangandow]

the guy was joking (hence the wink) but the barrel being oiled wouldnt have any effect on it. the bolt hitting the ball or the force of the co2 would be what would detonate the AP. if its gotten as far as the barrel, youre good to go. but thats not happening, trust me.

[Begste]

Would it be possible to convert a normal paintball into a mini grenade round. You could fill it with napalm and some chemical that will ingnite it on contact with something hard? Any ideas? Would be very nice if it worked.

They already have exploding paintballs for movie work. Same compound found in flash bang grenades.

[Mardec]

KMnO4 + glycerine that mixes on impact? This would be a small incendairy round.

[kbk]

Wouldnt the concusion of the round ejecting from the chamber of the paintball gun cause the incendiary to go off inside the gun? There is quite a bit of power used to make a painball fly with enough velocity to make it break when it hits someone. Therefore it must be pushed by alot of force and that could cause the ball to explode in the gun.

[Jacks Complete]

I think the point of this has been missed a little? You want a hopper with 250 napalm paintballs in it. You fire about 25 into the window of the target building, then send one that is lit (or preferably that will light things) in last.

All it needs is something really simple, like the "napalm" you can make with polystyrene and petrol. Form it into little balls in a mould, and load it up. See if it works (it should, and it can't hurt you!) and how hard it is to light. The bolt from the paintball gun shouldn't actually hit the ball very hard, since this causes ibroken balls in the barrel. If it does, get a venturi bolt kit for your paintball gun, which uses gas to push the ball more gently over longer, than smacking it with a bolt.

Next, make a small unit that will light the napalm goo. It takes quite easily with a match, so a few special balls should do the job. You need something that is stable, yet will light things without turning your barrel into a COB. I would suggest something electronics (or at least electrically) based.

I can see that a small unit would be possible. Perhaps a Lithium battery, shorted out, would generate enough heat. Another idea would be a small spark coil.

Lithium or sodium metal, carefully wrapped, would also heat up dramatically with water (provided, perhaps, by another regular paintball) Another idea would be to use something like KMnO3, which might oxidise hard enough to start a fire.

I certainly wouldn't want to use anything that has both dangerous parts in one ball, though!

A better idea than the paintball gun might be a simple(!) pneumatic cannon firing a milk bottle full of oil and petrol, with a rag or fuse behind it soaked/coated with something slow burning. This would let you light the fuse and fire it without too much risk and not obvious fire flying through the air, and deliver about twice as much in one go as a full hopper of paintballs.

An incendiary cannon for taking out target buildings from a range would be quite useful for some activities, I am sure. The paintball gun would be a bit lame, really.

[Silentnite]

From all of the paintball guns I have seen, there is a tube that you can fill with paintballs. What about filling it in order so its something like: Napalm, Napalm, Napalm, Napalm, KMNO4, Glycerin. That way each one fires seperately, and then you have no problems with it going off in your barrel. Unless theres a way to slow down the paintball gun, so maybe you could loft something with it instead of firing it straigt. So you could use something a little more sensitive.

[Bert]

The paintball rounds used for "bullet hit" effects in movie SFX work are filled with a mixture of fine gravel and fine Zirconium sponge. The metal ignites from the force of the impact, producing the visual effect and quite likely enough heat to ignite gasoline or other incendiary liquids/vapors. FYI, the empty capsules are sold by SFX suppliers but are deliberately made TOO LARGE to fit your normal kiddy fun time paintball guns- SFX crews have special barrels made (bored out) to fit the ammo. They don't want you to easily load up and use a malignant paintball round...

[Jacks Complete]

Silentnite, wouldn't the KMnO4 oxidise/light the petrol mix? Would the glycerin be needed?

Bert, you can buy oversized barrels without trouble. Most top players have several, and adjust the gun bore to the paint for the day. I doubt the paintballs would be too big to fit in the action of a regular paintball gun, so the barrel could, at a push, simply be removed. Accuracy would be poor, but they will still fly - not sure how far, though.

I know the oil-based marking paintguns are a smaller size, .6 rather than .69 from memory.

[Silentnite]

I wasnt sure exactly what you could use to light it. I only read further up in the thread that a KMNO4/Glycerin mix would be a incendiary round, albeit volatile. So I thought of just splitting them up. But if just KMNO4 would light it. Hey. Thatd be great.

[xyz]

Jack's Complete, I'm not sure about napalm, but in my experience pure petrol won't ignite in contact with KMnO4.

[Anthony]

I don't see the problem of KMnO4 / glycerine igniting in the barrel. Say it did mix on launch, the paintball is only in the barrel for a few milliseconds. The mixture doesn't ignite that fast. Hell, on a cold day, there's a good chance it won't ignite at all.

Paintballs go mushy on contact with even small amounts of water. What do you expect will happen if you fill one with an aggresive solvent?

The molotov cocktail fired from a spudgun is probably the best idea thus far. I'd go for a toilet-paper launcher design though. If the bottle broke under acceleration in the barrel, can you imagine the fireball at the muzzle? :)

[SoulShadow]

What about a way to put the flint in the round from lets say a zippo lighter? dont those things spark when the hit a hard surface?

[nbk2000]

Only at bullet speeds. An airpowered gun isn't going to go fast enough, I think.

[Third_Rail]

I haven't gotten rare-earth metal flints to spark, even firing out of a .223 hp round.


FWIW, anyway...

[Jacks Complete]

Anthony,

Hell YES!
Flame launchers... They look great at bonfire parties... :-D

[ossassin]

Just a note on the idea of filling paintballs with an incendiary agent that would ignore upon contact with air:
You ALWAYS have some paintballs pop in the barrel. It's a very common problem, so what happens when you have burning napalm all over the inside of your gun?

[charger]

If you did have such a ball breakage, wouldnt the CO2 put out the fire? I thought it would just smother it like a fire extinguisher does. If the fire was not extingwished, wouldn't the material be forced out of the muzzle before anything else could catch fire? There would be a fireball at the muzzle, scary, but but possibly harmless.

If you are worried about the other paintballs igniting prematurely, you could load them singly or use the 10 round sticks that are available to reduce the damage should they ignite.

[Silentnite]

As sticky as napalm is, especially in the form that you might use in a paintball round, probably would not be sufficiently expelled should it burst in the barrel.

Maybe if you used a little more liquid formulae, but then you'd have the problem with it dissolving the case.

[ossassin]

Yes, silentnite's right. Not only would the napalm not be expelled from the barrel (if paint isn't napalm won't be either), but the CO2 would NOT put it out. Napalm is incredibly hard to put out, and a few little bursts of CO2 won't do much.

If you want to use incendiary rounds in a paintball gun, the filler can't ignite upon contact with air, and it can't be friction or shock sensitive. How, then, could the idea work?

EDIT: The air-ignition idea might work if the shells of the paintballs were harder and much less likely to break. You'd have to open up the CO2 valve, then, so they'd shoot alot harder. Sure, it would lose alot of CO2, but it should have a longer range and be safer to use.

[Anthony]

A .68" paintball would have an internal capacity of less than 2ml. It wouldn't exactly be scary in the ball burst in the barrel and ignited at the muzzle. I'm sure everyone that has owned an air canon has filled the barrel with a flammable liquid and fired it over a naked flame.

Unless this "napalm" contains an oxidising agent, not only would be easily extinguised by a blast of CO2, I doubt it would even burn in the first place, within the confines of a paintball gun barrel.

[ossassin]

Well, they were talking about adding WP to it, which would ignite on contact with air. Would little puffs of CO2 really put that out?

[Jacks Complete]

WP wouldn't go out from CO2, but it would probably kill you off!

Crappy napalm like I make from polystryene will go out in small amounts if you blow on it. The blast of CO2 would put it out, and so would the air resistance as it flew.

The idea of firing burning paintballs is a bit silly, since they are far more likely to be spotted, they are going to be more dangerous, and they are going to be time-limited (how do you light them then fire them?)

If you light them on the way out, that would be feasible, but you will still see the path.

[Silentnite]

I thought the whole Idea was to shoot the napalm and then an incendiary paintball. One that would ignite on contact with the napalm. Not shoot flaming balls.. Although, it would be quite a site.

Although, if you did that... there shouldnt be a problem with it getting caught in the barrel. Unless you didnt notice and shot the lighting ball.

All this talk about fire and shooting makes me want to go build one.

[festergrump]

I doubt that a paintball sized round, whether filled with explosive, or a burning fuel would be that effective. There just isnt enough capacity. I say scale it up to spud gun size, with ammo the size of tennis balls, or at least racket balls... and then you might be on to something.

I would have to agree. Though using a paintball to deliver the flammable mixture is a novel idea, it'd require so many projectiles to be effective. If anyone could show me a very simple way to mass produce incendiary rounds for a paintball of any normal caliber, I'll be sold on the idea. Until then I think it's simply not practical.

Why not opt for a double barrel device, one barrel resembling a spudgun which would deliver your fuel payload (ie: Molotov cocktail sized projectile, even a beer bottle or similar), and the other a smaller bored barrel delivering either a flint and steel payload (a tighly wrapped "bag" of zippo flint and some course steel [very small broken off chunks of some cast iron, perhaps] patched down a barrel) or a breakable dual celled payload of a good acid and a chlorate? It kind of reminds me of SWIM's idea of the ultimate elephant gun: An over/under combination rifle with a .22lr over a .505. "Shoot 'em in the ass with the .22 and when they turn around to see what the sting is give 'em hell with the .505...". This would be just the reverse, sort of...

[ossassin]

The question about CO2 putting out WP was to make a point. :)

Silentnite, why would you shoot rounds with napalm and then an incendiary ignition round? Would the purpose be to start a fire? I was thinking that this was going to be used against people.

festergrump, I'd have to disagree about the size. I think that a small incendiary round from a paintball gun could be very effective for anti-personnel applications, as long as you hit something sensitive (like skin) or flammable.

[festergrump]

Hmmm... I was actually thinking of both crowd control applications as well as the starting afire of combustable inanimate objects.

I fail to see how a paintball sized round could be of significance. It's impact on the head of an enemy would surely have somewhat of a desired effect by stinging and hopefully blinding, but other than that, how would it be an effective weapon other than this??? Certainly, it isn't going to bring him to his knees in pain or start him afire so much as to stop him from advancing. Even if he noticed himself smoldering, couldn't he pat out the fire or smother it somehow? Rapid fire successive hits would be neccesary, which brings me to my point about mass production of such rounds. I've been splatted by paintball guns and I doubt the splotch of a similar incendiary round would call for immediate attention. (Note to self: a rifle or pistol would be so much better for such situations).

Truthfully speaking, my last post was more inclined towards the launching of a Molotov cocktail device far beyond the range of what a man can lob such an object. This, IMO would be very nice to be able to do as it would have its merits towards bunkers AND closely spaced enemy peoples. A direct hit to a person would maybe not spread the napalm, but it'd put him down. An indirect hit (hitting the ground in his general vacinity would [hopefully] douse him with enough napalm to toast him and his nearby friends or at least make them stop for alot more time to try to put themselves out). Bunkers and buildings, of course need no explanation.

[Silentnite]

I'm sorry, I didn't actually sit down to think on the uses or applicability of a paintball napalm launcher. I was just reading the first couple posts where he asks the feasibility of such a project.

It would take too many balls to do any kind of reliable damage to a person or persons. A building would be kind of dumb, unless it was maybe a gas station, and then you don't need the napalm, just the flints.

The reliability, effort to produce, and over all effect would be much more improved, by going with the molotov cocktail launcher. Or a regular flame thrower.

With all that in order, how about a physics question. The wider the area that a force is applied lowers the pressure on any given point right? So would that mean that the best projectile to launch out of a spud gun would be a wide-based cone? I say cone for the aerodynamics.

Feel free to correct any gross over-simplifications.

[ossassin]

I really don't see your point about trying to minimize the pressure. Do you mean so that a glass motolov coctail wouldn't break? It would be hard to launch a cone out of a cylindrical tube. What about a cylinder with a rounded front that would be shaped like a 40mm grenade? The barrel of the launcher would be able to stablize it, resulting in reasonable accuracy. The rounded front could be its soft spot, which would shatter on impact. The only problem would be that if the sides and rear were too hard, the incendiary agent wouldn't be dispersed effectively. What about a bursting charge? (I'm really making it complicated now.)

[Silentnite]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I was trying to figure out the optimal kind of projectile to use. Would a canning jar work you thinK? They are rather brittle, but if you use a slower powder, I think it should work.

[ossassin]

Aren't canning (mason) jars generally kinda square? It seems like it should be more spherical so you could shoot it out of a barrel of some sort. If you could find a spherical canning jar without the little designs on the side, go for it. What about an aluminum soft drink can or something? It should smash easily or burst easily with a small explosive charge. There wouldn't be any danger of having it shatter or crack in the barrel, either. Your thoughts?

EDIT: I guess it should be something with a soft front, maybe even a slightly weighted front. A trigger could be placed there.

[Jacks Complete]

Do you mean the kind with the lever to hold it closed? I've got some that are totally useless as far as a seal goes. However, they are cylindrical. I've seen both types.

To stop the jar shattering on fireing, you could coat the bottom with some plastic or silicone to cushion the shock a little. That should be enough when using a slow burn propellant like butane.

Alu or steel drinks cans are a bit nasty. They often seem fine, but when you try to fire them with a load, the walls buckle. YMMV.

In both cases, you are going to be stuck with a flat-nosed cylinder that will tumble. I would try to make some sort of nose cone. You might need fins. Again, YMMV.

This is going to be a tool for knocking a petrol bomb through a large window or even just hitting a barn at a few hundred yards, so nose cones and fins might be over-egging the pudding. Loading the ignition fluid into the nose and the body with the payload would solve some problems.

[festergrump]

Mason jars come in different shapes and sizes. I have seen the squared off type that Ossassin is referring to (which are actually more expensive) as well as ones simply cylindrical. The ones used for canning and preserving of fresh goodies usually have a two piece lid. One part is the ring which threads on to the top of the jar and the other is a disposable flat disk which has some sort of plastic to melt and create a good seal when properly heated in water.

With Ossassin's mention of the squared off type I'm now thinking what a great idea to utilize this. If one were to have a tube which had an ID of the diameter of the squared jar's outermost radius and were to impliment some slight rifling of the barrel... Would this not put a nice twist on the projectile and keep it from tumbling? No cone or fins neccesary.

The rifling of the bore need not be done by taking away from a thick barrel, either, but moreso adding to it. Four islands molded out of a kneadable epoxy should suffice. Only a slight twist would be needed. It's not like we are talking about the forces involved with firearms, else they, too, would be made from PVC piping...

I really don't know if this is a good idea or not, I'm sort of thinking aloud, here. Maybe the idea sucks. I'll not take it too hard if it does.

JC, I'm not sure about the jars you describe. If we're on the same page they are more used for holding candy and such, no? Also, I have to admit that you got me. What's YMMV?

[Jacks Complete]

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

You might be right about them being used for candy... I never really got in to home economics and all that - I can cook a steak. Home canning isn't the big thing it seems to be states-side over here, probably since the local store is at most 30 miles away, even at the most remote. Hell, the ones I've seen in Ikea looked real, but maybe they weren't canning jars at all! They do seem mostly decorative.

Are you meaning a square bore that is twisted? There was a system that used an oval bore, way back when, with BP. Since PVC can be softened and deformed with heat, it should be fairly simple to heat a barrel and squash it to the right shape. Do it with a propane burner and thick gloves, and perhaps a form to put inside, then sleeve the whole square tube inside another PVC pipe, just in case you weakened it too much.

Streamers would work for stabilising the ammo, too.

Edit: http://www.xinventions.com/main/spud/pac6.htm has something that might be absolutely spot-on for this job! ;)

[Tribal]

I was thinking, that if I had a paintball gun, I'd just fill the bullets with red phosphorous inside, I don't know how safe it would be or if i'm right, but that's an idea. please let me know if i'm wrong...

[Third_Rail]

If you had that much redP, you'd know what to do with it.

[Tribal]

Yes, I suppose I wouldn't use it in paintball ammo, that's too great stuff, i can still remember - when i was small - i almost blew off my fingers. But I really don't have any idea's where to put it, that using as detonating something by pressure.

[aXiate]

i reckon getting some napalm inside a paintball shell, and scraping off some matchheads and glueing the dust to the outside of the shell, at the end of the paintball gun have a matchbox igniter.

so hopefully on the way out it lights the match powder and then the napalm..
suggestions?

i supose you could also just coat the outside with a flash powder and shoot it, and impact should ignite then light the napalm/other insides?

[Bander]

Many of the binary compounds mentioned thusfar are relatively exotic. I imagine a 1:1 ratio of balls filled with either nitromethane or NaOH(or KOH) would yield a nice burst of flame when shot on top of each other.

[Jacks Complete]

Problem with that is the hitting the previous shot thing.

I think a mix of 10:1 of flammable to lighter would be good, since you want a lot of fuel and only need to light it once. Once burning, it will light any others, too.

Actually, thinking about it, you want two hoppers with a feed select. Spray a load of fuel first, then switch to the lighter hopper, and let rip again till it lights.

Make a professional enough version, and you would have a military weapon, there... Just add £000,000's for the timer lighter variation, and bingo! The ultimate "cause a distraction" device!

[Mr. Pseudo]

An excellent method for greatly reducing the impact sensitivity of AP is to mix it with a dilute aqueous solution of Na(CO3)2 (baking soda) and allow all water to evaporate.
AP was mixed with a .1M soln. of sodium bicarbonate and dried in open air for 36 hours. The prepared AP was then slightly dampened with anhydrous denatured ethanol and packed very tightly (and carefully) into specially prepared cardboard tubing which was unravelled to OD of .66" , sealed at the front with a slight taper, and sprayed with laquer. The front was weighted with a small dollop of lead. The lead was melted and poured onto a steel plate to cool. Once cool the lead disks were freed and cut to fit the tube.

After drying for 24 hours, a piece of wax paper was placed behind the AP and the remainin space filled with coarse (1-2mm) dry sand, and the end sealed with another piece of wax paper and secured with epoxy. Construction of a single round look about 2 minutes (minus drying time and with lots of practice)

Fig. 1: an approximation of the design of the AP rounds
|****| <-- Wax Paper/Epoxy cap (to fill)
|oooo| <-- Gravel (.10 in)
|-----| <--Wax Paper
|.......|
|.......| <-- AP/Soda filler (1 inches)
|xxxxx| <--Lead weight secured with epoxy (apprx .12 in)
\____/
***** <-- Tapered end sealed with epoxy
Total Length = 1.25 - 1.3 inches

Tests were performed using an unmodified tippman 98 using a highly advanced remote manual firing system (string tied to trigger). rounds were manually loaded directly into the barrel The Table below details confirmed detonations vs. failed detonations upon striking a stable wooden target.
**Firing rates shown were set for a standard paintball.**
**Due to the increased weight, the speed of the AP round was significantly lessened. **
RATE_______DETONATED_______DUD
150_____________1____________9
200_____________2____________8
250_____________6____________4
300_____________10___________0
350_____________9____________1*
400____________10____________0

* Fluke? Possibly a misconstructed round.

Speeds higher than 400 fps were not risked, since the danger only increased and the trend was pretty obvious.

The front was weighed with lead to bring the balance closer to the front of the projectile in order to minimize tumbling.

Power was fairly impressive. took the bark off pine trees with a sharp *crack* and tore a hole in 1" particleboard.
Power could probably be increased by mixing the AP with PETN instead of sodium bicarbonate. Extremely thorough mixing would have to be done, not simply mixing together the two powders.

I'd also like to try this with a solid AP/NC cylinder. It would eliminate the dangerous and time-consuming packing step, but i dont know what would happen to the sensitivity. I have heard that AP/Epoxy mixtures are EXTREMELY sensitive, but i dont recall any specific mentions.
What do any of you more experienced guys thing of using a solid AP/NC load?

In addition, the rounds tended to slide out of the barrel if it was pointed down and shaken. When not shaken, a small orange rubber finger in the breech held the rounds in place. I dont know if all PB markers have the same type of little rubber widget on them as the Tippmans.

[meselfs]

Very fine research, Mr. Pseudo.

I'm not sure how wise it is to use a solid slug. You could, I guess, make an undersize one and dip it in wax. Maybe you could make a really simple paper cylinder, fill part with AP and the rest with NC/whatever, and keep dipping it in wax until it'll fit the gun. For fast loading, consider mold for the wax. The wax would have to be thick, to strengthen it, and it would all but eliminate the chance of detonation in the barrel.

[Mr. Pseudo]

wax would certainly greatly increase friction with the barrel and even likely deform, causing a complete blockage of the barrel. NOt to mention that wax buildup would necessitate a thorough cleaning after every round.
I saw on the FN Herstal website that they have some very nifty rounds designed for non-lethal appications. These could be easily modified for for deadlier purposes, but seem to only be sold to those with LE creds. Pigs get all the fun stuff. :(
I'd sell my soul for a P90

NOTE: the FN Herstal website must be viewed in IE or the Java menus will not work, making navigation impossible.
[http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm]

I was wondering if the rounds unusual size would be fitted in the 'Freak' modular barrel system. I would assume so.

**EDIT** coating the outside of a paintball with anything sensitive is a monumentally stupid idea. The PB's invariably tumble in the barrel, thus any friction sensitive material on the shell will undergo an abrupt increase in entropy. Not only that, but any sort of unevenness or grit will cause the round to break in the barrel.
The near-impossibiity of making decent home-made ball rounds make them ludicrously impractical. not only that, but they are unable to carry any decent quantity of substance. Unless your rounds contain a powerful neurotoxin they will not do anything that would not be far better served by a $15 "Saturday Night Special".

I just had another neat idea!

The FN Herstal rounds have two isolated chambers. A front one which contains granulated bismuth for greater KE, and a rear one which contains a variety of liquids.
If the front compartment were filled with a cyanide salt and the rear compartment with concentrated HCL, the rounds would release a burst of cyanide gas on impact. The concentration inhaled would possibly cause immediate cardiac arrest due to shock in the victim. Even it if did not cause death, the deployment of numerous of these projectiles would serve as an effective area-denial devce. It would also greatly complicate any rescue efforts during part of a larger operation.

Not only that, but if an enemy was out of sight or in a reinforced position (IE. hiding behind bullet-resistant cruiser doors. ;) ), several of these rounds in a close proximity would force movement.

Should I start a new thread for this?

[asilentbob]

From what i have read in the past, IIRC, paint balls are usually made up of glycerin, propylene glycol, and/or vegtable oil and dyes. If you called up differnt companys and found out which ones fill up with glycerin, you would only need to make some KMnO4 shells. Either KMnO4 powder or a solution, other than water, in whatever container you end up utilizing.

A friend and i were thinking of using his crappy paintball gun for experiments like this a while ago.

[h0lx]

I've been thinking of using Mn2O7 for destructive purposes and this must be the perfect use for it. You could use it in split class spheres in size of a painball round like 1/4 of the volume is Mn2O7 and other 3/4 is some volatile organic fuel(Acetone, Xylene, Gasoline). Or use rounds full of Mn2O7, which could be shot at anything organic to ignite it. The shooter may select the ammunition depending on target. The paintballgun has to be fully pneumatic, with nothing hard hitting the round. If I find a way to fill glass spheres with it and seal them, I will try this one out definately.

[Grapes Of Wraith]

Airsoft grenade launchers are modeled after real grenade launchers. You can fill a shell with just gas (propane or higher pressure gas) then use it to launch things like small fruit or other stuff, the diameter is 40mm. You can place firecrackers in the fruit for a more realistic grenade explosion.

this is a hand held one:
http://store.matrixbb.com/servlet/-strse-28608/CAW--fdsh--Echo-1/Detail
or theese:
http://store.matrixbb.com/servlet/-strse-Airsoft-Guns-cln-Grenade-Launchers/Categories

[Gammaray1981]

Why glass spheres, h0lx? Wouldn't a cylinder do? I.e: Take flint glass tubing, heatseal one end, fill to (insert depth) with Mn2O7, add thin layer of wax to separate layers, fill further with whatever solvent, seal in any fashion you see fit.

So long as your tubing was of the right OD for the barrel of your marker, this would be effective, and far less hassle than trying to create a divided sphere. It would also work for cyanide salts and HCl, napalm and steel/flint mixture, or whatever else you had handy.

Careful with the wall thickness, though - flint glass is irritatingly brittle under instantaneous stress, as that in a paintball marker in use.

[Tinton]

Mn2O7 decomposes into manganese dioxide, oxygen gas, and a ozone. You couldn't seal the container, as the gases produced would detach the wax from your glass tubing, and the Mn2O7(if it hasn't already decomposed) would ignite the solvent.

I actually tried something similar to this, I took a centrifuge tube, and a normal test tube; added some Manganese heptoxide to the centrifuge tube, and acetone in the larger test tube. I stoppered both, inserted the centrifuge tube in the larger test tube, and chucked it.
It produced a miniscule flame, and did not ignite the solvent further. It would not have ignited anything.

One method that works much better, is to put the Manganese heptoxide in the larger tube, and the solvent in the smaller. Such that more solvent can be used, as well as the solvent has a greater chance of igniting the acetone(or whatever).

[Gammaray1981]

It needn't be heat sealed - and anyway, even without decomposition, the solvent would catch fire in an open flame. I was thinking along the lines of a wax plug, or even a small bung. A bung, in fact, would allow the removal of one component if necessary, rendering the round inert and so less harmful, for storage, perhaps. As I said, this needn't be applied only to manganese heptoxide.

/----------------/|
|XXXXXX|YYYYYY|| }Glass tube
\----------------\|
End Wax
C1 C2 Bung

C1, C2 = components 1, 2.

[Tomato]

For those who mentioned lighting a round and shooting it, the flame would very likely be put out when shot. Back in the day, I fired an "M2000" out of the barrel, it just happened to be the perfect size. It's not the effect we are looking for, but perhaps it would be useful to make molds. By the way, the m2000 only flew 10 feet or so.

On a side note, I don't believe anyone has mentioned PepperBall's paintball rounds. There are several videos that can be easily found on Youtube. They aren't incendiary but they sure work wonders. Perhaps some of their rounds http://www.pepperball.com/Securities/products.aspx are already modified in the ways in which we wish to modify ours. There's one filled with water... It's definitely worth researching.

[Tonfa45]

As a quick special affect some stunt people fill them with sand and match heads to replicate bullet strikes on hard surfaces, but I agree with "endotherm" impact sensitive rounds traveling between 300 - 400 fps have more several factors to overcome. (from the acceleration to the impact) Low velocity impact sensitive round... I have fired just about everything through a paintball marker that is commercially made and some custom stuff. Very difficult medium with limited payload. Propellant gases can very from propane, nitrogen, CO2 and compressed air so I don't feel that would be an issue.

[Winston Bailey]

As for a HE composition mix, wouldn't AP putty work if molded to the same calibre as the paintballs(.67)?? It would have a significantly reduced instability to shock. I'm also fairly certain a 400 fps impact on a stationary hard target would be sufficient to detonate. If not, make it more sensitive :D.

Arts and Crafts stores sell an extremely large selection of various sized styrofoam spheres. These could be semi-hollowed and filled with Trimeric AP.If one was still worried about the impact of the ball itself being forced out, (as stated earlier) use a venturi bolt. It has 4-6 ported holes to allow evenly distributed airflow which will reduce all the co2 from hitting one concentrated spot. Thus, eliminating some of the impact pressure(this also helps with the tumbling effect down the barrel). I dont think this will be much of an issue if using the styrofoam.

Most often, the balls arent broken due to being hit by the bolt as they come out, it has more to due with an untimed feeding system. The bolt actually catches the ball as it falls down the feeding port and pinches the top creating a crack/hole that compromises the shells structural integrity, rendering it useless.

You can eliminate this by buying/obtaining a *fairly* cheap high quality PB gun that utilizes an "EYE." This is an integrally mounted laser which disables the bolt from firing if the ball isn't/hasn't fully chambered yet. Also the "FREAK" barrell system comes with multiple ID sized barrel inserts to allow different calibers to be shot from any particular gun.

Ceramic barrels would also help reduce friction. And if a ball did manage to break, there would be no ABSOLUTE need to clean it because the next shot would clean out all shards of the shell left behind previously. This is because all the micropores are filled by ceramics leaving a glass like finish on this inside. Although a squeegee is still a very necessary tool.

Another advantage of using a better PB gun is that they utilize compressed air rather than co2 for better velocital consistency. Co2 tends to get very cold when used in rapid fire(i.e. 3rd burst, 6rd burst, Semi-Auto with ramping, & full auto.) So less velocity is needed in order to get a more efficient group at further ranges. Coincidentally, a reduced impact on the ball. :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

As for a HE composition mix, wouldn't AP putty work if molded to the same calibre as the paintballs(.67)??

Do not fuck with plasticizing TATP. It will bite you. :mad:
ANYTHING that is primary-level sensitive should not be "shot out" of a paint ball gun, etc. :(

"It didn't happen when we did it before", "My friend did it & it was fine", "I know what I'm doing; I'll make it small".
Only one person had the balls enough to come clean and talk about fucking up with energetic materials that I remember.....and what he said sounded so fucking stupid that most people thought he was a troll. :rolleyes:

I actually have heard of things like this for years. To date, starting from about 8 or 9 years back on AEE I don't think I could not count the amount of thumbs, eyes, flaps of skin, fingers, eye-lids, & assorted bits people have lost from TATP. People don't come back and post: "Hey, I fucked up real bad and now I'm typing with one hand and have no more depth perception". "My masturbatory habits are curtailed now and my girlfriend said that my stump turns her off."

Actually I'm not in the habit of posting crap like this. But actually I -=DO=- care if someone has an accident with energetic materials. Because it brings a lot of negative attention. The specific REASON that CPSC targeted the pyrotechnics industry is to keep themselves active and funded as an agency. But the technique they used was the accidents that had occurred over the course of time.

When someone gets hurt, they are in shock. They generally don't have the wits to make up a story like "I was fucking with a 20ga shell, trying to pry it out of the chamber of my piece with a pocket knife & it discharged". They either tell the truth or the evidence is too hard to conceal OR they get mad at themselves and BLAME the chemical! (If you don't get the point I'm making please re-read the post) - I am also not directing this at any one individual! I'm sick and tired of bullshit happening that can be avoided with a wee bit of common sense. Please think this stuff through....:o

[Winston Bailey]

Charles,
Your probably right. It was merely a suggestion :o. A simple idea I thought might have been a little bit safer than just straight AP. I have never had *personal* expierience with plactisized AP so I dont exactly know how much safer, but from what I understand it sounded a bit more plausible. Besides the plactisized AP idea was more like a rhetorical suggestion, hence because I had no expirience with it? But, I wasn't about to go asking if it would because I am a noob, and that's a no-no. That is why I put it in the form of a suggestion.:)

Thank you for caring, as I am sure none of us want any extra attention than we are already recieving momentarily. As for all the other ideas I mentioned, most of them weren't my ideas, but rather an improved fasion of the ones I have been reading. i.e. The "eye"- So if you did do this (which i wouldn't waste my explosives doing, much less a $350 PB gun) your chance of chopping a ball would be less probable.

The Venturi bolt and compressed air because they both exert less force than does a regular bolt and C02. In my opinion, using any explosive in a paintball weather high order, low order, binary=low order, what have you, is a BAD idea. Even if the proper steps are taken to *try* and make it safe :rolleyes:. But no matter what you say there will ALWAYS be one individual who has to learn things the hard way.

I didn't mean to offend anyone :(, just trying to help that one individual be a little bit safer and take extra simple steps to *reduce his chances* of being injured. I figured it's better to help rather than just say "Don't do it" if they're going to do it anyways. The way I see it that's HOW mistakes happen,....mis-information or NO information at all.

I know this wasn't/isn't specifically directed at me, but I can't help but feel that way because I am new to this forum, haven't posted all but two posts, and I have only been recently (like 2-months) been making explosives, even though I have LOVED them my whole life.

None the less I greatly appriciate your constructive critisism and care. Even if it's not about the people involved but rather the field of energetic materials itself. I understand your POV. I only hope you try to understand mine.;)

CHEERS

[megalomania]

The opening scene from the movie Arlington Road comes to mind, the bloodied child walking in shock down the middle of the street after his explosives accident.

Primary explosives readily detonate from friction and impact, both conditions which are present if you launched an explosive from anything. Acetone peroxide in particular is a very sensitive primary explosive.

I will not say it can't be done, or it should never be done, but for your own sake you need to be very familiar with the safety aspects of an explosive before you start tinkering around. If there was an accident, and the plasticized AP did explode in the barrel of the gun when fired, think about what would happen. Is the round powerful enough to destroy the gun? Will the gun be next to you face? Will the barrel shatter? Is the gun built strong enough to channel the energies harmlessly down the barrel? Are there safety features you can design into the device to minimize an accident?

Weapon designers don't just take a gun off the design table, hand it to a soldier, and point him to the nearest battlefield. They fire the thing remotely, try to simulate and induce failures, and make sure the thing works before letting a human anywhere near it.

[gaussincarnate]

In my experience, paintball gun barrels are not the most sturdy things ever invented. I used to paintball rather frequently, and I have seen people break barrels on accident before (long story involving a very stupid person with nothing to do). I would suggest trying to fire it without a barrel the first few times. Yes, I know that it will do little more than roll out of the gun, but it would give the blast somewhere to go, just in case.

On the bright side, most paintball guns are electronic, so remotely firing them should be considerably easier than remote firing mechanical weapons.

Also, although this involves neither AP nor paintball guns, it may be useful. I have fired those little popper things discussed in another thread (silver fulminate extraction?) from a blowgun before, and it did not detonate (until impact). Even though they are two entirely different substances, it does show that it is reasonable to expect that sensitive materials could survive comparable accelerations out of a paintball gun and thus make it out of the barrel. Still better to be safe than sorry, however.

[Kaydon]

I wouldn't go as far to say most paintball markers are electronic, the majority are mechanical. Speedball has grown so much in popularity that the manufacture of electronic markers, or electronically assisted mechanicals (e.g. e-grip, electronic loaders) has increased, but that's about it.

I believe the strongest paintball barrel made to be the DYE Boomstick many moons ago, the one that weighed around 3lbs. The one you could use as a weapon if you had to. It was like a billy club.

[wolfy9005]

How about a paintball/marble with a string connected to a small bottle with the sensitive stuff in it(or a mini-molotov?).

[Winston Bailey]

This would not be smart. A string attatched to a small bottle would definitely cause more than enough shock(from being ripped or pushed by the paintball/marble) to cause det. that is of course if using any primary HE. Not the MC but who wants a vial of flammable liquids broken inside your gun??? :rolleyes:

OFF TOPIC A BIT
A slingshot would definitely be a better idea. Plus there would be no need for the marble/pb.

CHEERS

[gaussincarnate]

Come to think of it, if you really, really wanted to waste money, Armorech (I believe) sells barrels that you could probably shoot a real bullet out of. They make a number of scale models of real weapons (essentially the same, just with everything scaled up for the .68 bore), so the barrels are almost invincible. The guns themselves were actually machined steel throughout, not stamped. Great way to get suckers to buy something wholly unnecessary just because it sounds cool.

I knew someone who had one of those, a model SR-25, if I remember right, and he always talked about how it was indestructable (and the whole unit weighed about 15 lbs, unloaded). Stupid? Yes. Useful just this one time? Maybe.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Not many people are aware of the level of research that goes into steel production. The steel used in weapon's barrels is a great example. People can do things with steel that were simply unimaginable several decades ago. The level of pressure that chambers can manage is fantastic and it's not through rigidity alone that this is achieved. There is a ballooning effect that is actually controlled via micro crystalline enhancement in production dynamics.

It's not a good idea to experiment with pressure spikes unless you have a bit of a background in related engineering. What may appear to "handle" a level of pressure can actually be forming fissures unseen by the eye at the casual level.

You can setup a remote firing mechanism and everything appears to be going well but actually rending before your eyes (undetermined by casual glance). The height of stupidity was the use of plumbing pipe in firearms by some crap-books. Be very careful what you put your faith into.

[iHME]

if you really, really wanted to waste money, Armorech (I believe) sells barrels that you could probably shoot a real bullet out of.

Why buy a paint ball when you could just buy a proper barrel and don't even think that you could fire 12 gauge shot shells with a paint ball gun bolt or receiver.
A kid died recently because he was too stupid to remotely test his invention, which was doomed from the start. He loaded a 12 gauge shell in to his paint ball gun an pulled the trigger. He died later at the hospital.

But if you want to make a real weapon from a paint ball gun make it in .22lr or similar. Heres a example (The posters English is simply horrible. ):

The newer thread with blurry pictures (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=20033)

The original thread with sharper pictures (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=16197)

Only if he would write better English and take better pictures...
If the links don't work register to the forum, it is worth it, a forum full of people building firearms. Need I say more? :p