Improvised sap gloves.

[Red Beret]

Has anyone successfully made and used a pair of improvised sap gloves? Do you think they are worthwhile?

One method I want to try is to purchase some chain mail gloves and wear them over leather gloves. If it is too hard to make a fist, I will then try cutting half of each finger off the mail. Do you think these would pack a similar punch to proper sap gloves?

A second method I have considered, is to take some gloves and glue powdered/granulated glass, and or sharp metal filings to the striking area.

All comments and ideas welcome.

[LibertyOrDeath]

I have never made a pair myself, but I think they'd be a good weapon -- especially if they could be made to look like an ordinary pair of gloves from any distance other than up close.

If I were going to make a pair, I'd probably favor the classic variety with powdered lead sewn into the knuckles. Other materials might cause damage to your knuckles unless you have some kind of shielding/cushioning built into your design.

The gloves themselves would likely have to be made of something like leather to withstand the stresses of use. And you'd certainly need to use something better than just ordinary sewing thread for attaching the pockets to hold the lead (or whatever substance) over the knuckles. Otherwise the pockets containing the lead would likely burst open when you punched someone. I'm not sure off the top of my head what varieties of super-strong fibers are available, but maybe it's possible to buy something like a spool of Kevlar?

Of course, if you want to modify gloves in the above manner, you'll also have to learn to sew if you don't already know how. :)

[A.C.E.]

Dental floss works wonders for sewing leather. I use it all the time for repairing saddles and harnesses. Just make sure to get the right kind of needles, they should be very sharp with a triangular cross-section. Also, you might need a pair of pliers to hold the needle.

Cheap ankle weights are a great source of powdered lead.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I have had an opportunity to examine "sap gloves" in depth. I actually was not impressed. This is simply a glove with a moderately light knuckle conforming weight. They do not have a kinetic advantage over any other glove with weight attached. However the powdered lead is soft and protects the fist to a degree. I would offer an alternative....

A glove designed to strike a solid object (very light weight striking-bag boxing-type design) with a wrist support and the use of some cutting or great abrasive material (broken glass). The ancient Greeks / Romans used such gloves to increase the intensity of the blow. A glove was dipped in pitch or tar and the broken glass adhered.

My reasoning is that the powdered lead is not enough weight to make that great a difference and the blow is strengthened more from knuckle protection than any other mechanism. Examine the anatomy of the blow and the wrist can always be strengthened; the knuckles always better protected. But in terms of damage to an opponent, the more vicious the injury the better. Broken glass may rip and embed in the thin tissue of the face and head. Couple this with a chemical enhancement such as pepper spray covered glass or even poison and you may have a winner!

Enhance the blow to such a degree that one shot does the deed; that would be my thinking. This was the original intent of the sap glove......so go it one or two better! The enhancement does NOT have to be impact oriented (kinetic) to be effective. There are many other methods of enhancement to a strike with the hand.

Take an ordinary pair of quality leather gloves and a selection of strong rivets. Place the FLAT side of the rivets INSIDE the glove so that they lay flat to the knuckles and the outside is studded with sharp projections. Now you have gloves that protect the hands and have a large striking surface that protects the user but cuts violently, the opponent. Apply human shit & lye to the sharp rivet ends and keep in plastic bag until needed.

[Bugeye]

The concept of the glass / sharp objects glove is a good idea, but such gloves might attract unwarranted attention long before they became of use. (unless your hurting people on a daily basis). Perhaps for a more clandestine set of gloves, you could line a set of motorbike gloves internally with plates and small vertical blades.

These blades could remain under the outer covering so that they remained appearing ordinary, but the first punch would project the blades through the outer covering and do the damage. Once used, they would need to be replaced to continue the hidden aspect, but that would be a small price as the internals would be reused and only another standard pair of gloves need be obtained.

You could also coat them with poison since the protrusions are under the surface of the glove and protected in normal use.

Discreet and deadly.

[W4RGASM]

Reminds me of the episode of CSI (loathe as I am to quote that pile of shit) where a boxer opened the seams of his gloves, soaked the batting with mercury and sewed it shut again. He was discovered because little droplets of mercury were splattered about from the force of punching, but I'm sure we could find a way around that... or would be even want to? Hitting somebody in the face, and aerosolising mercury around his general holes-of-intake area could mean he never comes out of the hospital you send him to in the first place.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You'd want to work with mercuric salts....CSI is lame. Metallic mercury has a tough time entering the body; the salts run in and deliver problematic complications. But Hg salts are unique and expensive. Easier thing is to look at insecticides and choose arsenic, the breakfast of champions.

[W4RGASM]

Problem with mercuric salts is they don't quite glom like elemental mercury does, which is where your extra weight comes from.

Organic mercury complexes are even better then straight salts, but most of them roll with through latex and leather like it's not even there, which would make it hard to keep in a glove.

[UnderConstruction]

I own a pair of saps (bought, not made) and I have to disagree with "Charles Owen Picket". Mine are fingerless goat leather with steel packed into the seams of the knuckle. A pound of steel (the amount typically found in commercial gloves) packs an enormous punch while providing amazing cushioning for the hand. Mine also have a really tough wrist guard. The loss of manual dexterity is pretty heavy (you won't love them while handling money, cards, or placing your hands into snug pockets), but the acceleration lost while punching is real, but fairly slight. What I do is wear one on my left (dominant) hand and leave my right hand free. In a boxer's stance my right hand would therefore be left to punch fast, while the left could pack the real force.

[Asriel]

I would say in general it is easier and cheaper to simply make a sap, not only having a weapon with a handle grant you more leverage allowing you to hit harder. But if you have you're heart set on making sap gloves, go tradition, just use lead shot, easy to purchase, the amount is easily adjustable, and it packs very good weight for it's size.

[UnderConstruction]

If you're going to go with a regular sap, though, you might as well go with a police baton since they have a superior reach and are more versatile. The gloves are the easiest to conceal, though, since they can be conspicuous without arousing too much suspicion.

In a sap glove, the ideal metal would be tungsten due to its extreme density--search for "tungsten shot" in google (most results will be irrelevant though). I've contacted a company that sells it for more information on pricing (the fact that they don't offer it at the forefront is just a little discouraging).

[deathbymyhand9]

As a boxer I have played around with some improvised sap gloves. The pair I have found most effective have a Flexible light leather shell. Under the leather is a double layer of 4 ply chain mail, then sewn onto the underside of the chain mail positioned over the knuckles are small silk pouches full of black iron oxide. All of the fingers are cut off and each glove weighs somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5 Lbs. For me they have been amazingly effective with my mid-weight boxing style.

[Jacks Complete]

That last design seems like bizarre overkill. Iron oxide pouches? WTF? Just use lead dust or microshot, it's about 3 times heavier by volume than rust. In fact, you are probably confused and it really is just well oxidised lead dust.

My glove is basically 900 links of galvanised steel chainmail, with a .5mm thick leather patch under it to protect the knuckles. Weights about a pound (I guess, without finding it and weighing it) and is fingerless so no loss of dexterity. Catch a knife blade point on, and it will get about 3mm into your hand before stopping, unless it is some kind of weird stilleto. Edges won't get anywhere, and nor will a sword. It would also be good for catching a taser, I suspect.

Of course, not something I carry about the place, and it's nothing near covert. Normally, I just carry regular leather police gloves - you just know they have been tested for punching and the like already!

[Alexires]

Uhhh. Jacks, perhaps you mixed up the UAV thread and this thread. That last paragraph doesn't make too much sense in relation to sap gloves.....

---

Thanks, corrected now. JC

[HypocriticalBuddhist]

How about one inconspicuous razor blade coated with a poison like ricin or hydrogen cyanide?

[UnderConstruction]

the razorblade would be good (it would have to fucked around with though, to make it work) but the poison (specifically HCN) would be impractical.

Poisons dry and are probably made useless (for our purposes), cutting someone with most of them would probably not result in enough depth to achieve the desired results (most would slide off onto skin during contact) if the previous issue wasn't an issue, than you're walking out with protruding death on your hand (it's overly-dramatic of course, but at the same time it's true:D). HCN is very volatile and would be unlikely to stay on the blade, ricin's an interesting thought, or maybe abrin. Both are unlikely to work, though. :(

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This is off topic...however:
There is a whole science to blade design (both point and edge) for the carrying of material into a wound. It is well established and had parameters. One can effectively distribute both drugs and toxins; infectious materials or torturous chemicals into the system via this concept. The blade often had holes or depressions, the tip often hollow cavities. But it has been cultivated to a high degree of design implementation.

[Jacks Complete]

Having said that, COP, it's not hard to work out what will do a good job and what won't. A smooth blade won't carry much compared to a scalloped one, which in turn won't carry as much as a roughened one. Anything hollow and used for stabbing will carry more, but the actual delivery will be more affected by blood flow out of the wound cleaning it out, especially if it is a nasty "blood letting" spike.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Right, I certainly didn't want to hijack the thread but there are some interesting issues here. The hypodermic-hollow point stabbing design or the blade made of rough folds of steel could both carry materials well. I've heard of blades with a continuous row of holes drilled very close to the edge (1/16" or less) which could be smeared with material, etc, etc. The use of the blood flow itself for "moving" the material as the blade locomotion through tissue. Picture this: The holes in the blade are drilled at an angle, so there is a "direction" to them in the blade edge. The blade is drawn through flesh and the material contained therein is left by the drawing of the blade against sub-cutaneous tissue.

[UnderConstruction]

Another thing that should be considered is where the blades could be placed, since it need not be confined to the knuckles. A blade lining the "knife" of the hand (the side opposite the thumb) would be very effective since it would serve well during natural defensive gestures, below the knuckles, near the wrist, a curved blade would effectively complement a back-hand, and the wrist itself could host angled blades for an offensive defense, assuming that a wristguard was present.

The blade design you're talking about (Charles) seems very interesting, is there a link you could provide?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

No link...just dreamed it up. There's a gun show in town and a couple of friends came by as they got tables at the show and we just shoot the shit about this stuff all the time. We make them and get a hog's head and try them; stuff like that. It all started with a beer infused discussion of the Kris knife and if it really were poisoned. In fact one or two people from here chimed in on that one.

The Kris is made from roughly folded metal that also has arsenic in it. not enough arsenic, mind you, but it's there. but the folds are very rough and could retain a Hell of a lot of micro-organisms. Enough to really fuck up the poor sod that got a wee cut.

The hypodermic-knife idea came from a tire puncture tool that if it were en-venomated, could deliver a lot of toxin very fast via a thrust. Certainly, about a half gram.

[ann]

I have a pic of a few hollow hypo style weapons ..even the ultra rare 1960s cia "flo-master" a pen with a hollow hypo blade.

Have a few pics of blades designed to hold poison also...ALSO much info on many tests of poisons and others like ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid and other chemicals as Anticoagulants on blades.

In the end..it is overall a poor idea.

flomaster hollow spike poison delivery pen

http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/41763/2001274406447975793_fs.jpg



as far as saps and jacks...excellent tools. Here are afew I have used in the past.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6684/dsc053611wv6.jpg

[HypocriticalBuddhist]

HCN is very volatile and would be unlikely to stay on the blade, ricin's an interesting thought, or maybe abrin. Both are unlikely to work, though. :(

Then perhaps Mercury, strontium, or Americium? no immediate effect, but what the hell?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Using an edged weapon as a cutting weapon predominantly is also not the best move as cuts are much less debilitating than stabs. This is fact and not conjecture. Studies of edged weapons used in modern times are as diverse as actions in Africa to assaults in penitentiaries. Continually noticed are the results of cuts vs. stabs as being less debilitating; these are documented facts.

The greatest issue with a "poisoned blade" is that in the majority of knife encounters of any intensity, the yielder gets a few nicks and cuts themselves. Having a serious poison on a knife used as a cutting weapon ...is an invitation to join the victim.

[GOre71]

It's pretty rudimentary - but I cut a piece of a bicycle inner tube and tied off 1 end , filled it with lead fillings, then tied off the other end. I thought it was amazing because when wrapped around my fist, I could punch a brick wall without hurting my hand. From what I understand it leaves no bruises if I were to hit someone with it.

It also got me arrested in California for possession of an illegal weapon.