Gun license, why not.

[Bugeye]

Here in the great free land of Australia, to own anything more powerful than a sling shot, a license is required. To buy ammunition or even reloading supplies, one requires not just a license but a license for that particular weapon, which rules out home made weapons.

So the question becomes, why would a person who could get a license (clean record, acceptable health etc) not do so if he/she desires to own a weapon?

"Just get a license." is a phrase I have read or heard often.

However, perhaps I am overly paranoid, but if anything should happen on a large scale, such as economic breakdown, massive natural disaster, revolution etc, the first place and the ones most thoroughly searched are going to be the places of license owners and those of people who applied for a license.

To be truly prepared for a crash yet be already on the list of people of interest to the powers that be is counter productive. Such a time may not occur in my lifetime, but it may.

The people suffering from floods after Katrina had done no wrong, and were subject to looting, but that did not stop the government from tying them up, searching their places and stripping them of their guns, many of which have never been returned.

Maybe I am too paranoid, but maybe those that would say that are not paranoid enough.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There is a great deal of logic to your position as you would be the one who is KNOWN for possession of a weapon. However the likelihood of the authorities going to your home and asking for it is slight - IF we are talking about some serious shit happening. However if there is some sort of lightweight governmental issue you would be the first one to hear a knock on your door.

The "just get a license" response is actually laughable. Why should someone have to register with the Nanny State just to be able to defend themselves?

Picture a child being picked on by the school-yard bully.....and running to get a license so that he could throw a punch..... "I told me Mum he was picking on me" "And then I went and got my license and defended myself!"

[megalomania]

A far more likely scenario is the teacher will march the child making these accusations in front of the class and ask,

"Sedgwick claims he is being picked on, are there any witnesses to this?"
The class glances nervously at the bully and his henchmen, who grinds his fist onto his palm while scowling, daring any fool to speak out against him. As one, the rest of the class shakes its head in the negative.
"Sedgwick is a liar, he made it up" peeps one sycophant lobbying for approval from the bully.
The headmaster sternly grabs Sedgwick by the scruff of the neck and marches him off to be paddled.

Later, after school has ended, as Sedgwick is gingerly rubbing his sore bottom while walking home to his flat, a menacing shadow eclipses his own scrawny umbra. The sudden, painful blow to the back of his head is just an attention getter. Sedgwick whirls around and the hairs on the back of his neck stand to attention, even as his stomach drops to the floor in fear.

"Oi! It's the little tattler, tryen to get me an the lads in a spot of trouble, eh?" An obviously rhetorical question. "This is what happens to liars and tattle tails!"
The rain of blows delivered by the bullies is more terrifying than dangerous, they are children after all, which is not to say the experience was painless, not by a long shot. Long after the cuts and scrapes have healed, the emotional scars will fester and ooze.

Sedgwick did what he thought was the right thing, he told the school officials he was being bullied, and that he wanted to punch the bully in the nose. Now his teachers think he is a liar, the bully will make his life a living hell until graduation, he got his bottom paddled into hamburger, and the school counselors want him to undergo therapy, possibly be put on antipsychotic drugs, for suggesting he hit the bully.

A few years later, during the last few moments of Sedgwick's life while he was hanging from the shower nozzle with a leather belt wrapped around his neck, he had the accelerated insight that death brings that maybe the right thing was never playing by the stupid rules of the school. He should have popped that bully then and there, playing the game by the bullies rules, instead of hoping the stupid liberals would fix things. He had gotten his ass kicked on a regular basis since then anyway, but in his medication addled state he could never have defended himself. He never would have been on the drugs if not for that incident, never would have been stuck in the remedial classes, never convinced to drop out and be stuck mopping floors for a damn Paki at the quick mart. Ahh, the clarity that death brings. Too late now for Sedgwick.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The "Story of Sedgwick" was powerful shit; I liked it.
Occasionally age brings insight (as near-death brought Sedgwick) and I have mostly been gratified that I didn't "play by the rules".
The occasional grief it brought me is generally outweighed by the lack of "victimhood". I really despise being a victim.

[megalomania]

Rules are either created by idealists who want a perfect society, or by those who want to control you. Many rules are invariably good, they keep order, and keep people out of harms way. It is the unrealistically naive rules of the idealists, or the Machiavellian power trip rules of the controllers that throw a wrench in the system.

The bad rules only work when everyone plays by them, especially the naive ones. Once someone goes outside the rules you can not get justice. The parable of Sedgwick is meant to illustrate how the liberal naive fools assume good in everyone, and give the bully the benefit of the doubt, but since the bully plays outside the rules he uses fear and violence to force everyone to lie for him. The bully knows how to work the system for his own ends, and he gets the class to lie for him because they are afraid. The rules work in the opposite way they are intended.

Don't let other men tell you what justice means. A trial and a conviction is not always justice. Will you be satisfied if the man who raped and murdered your daughter gets three years in prison? He was tried, and convicted, but is his debt really paid? Don't let a bunch of naive liberals tell you he served his debt to society. Injustice in the guise of justice is the worst kind of terrorism, one our government commits all the time.

I am all for gun control, let the police and military be the first to be disarmed, then I will give up my weapons.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Mega: Not to kiss ass, but did you write that little story about Sedgwick? Because I really think it shows quite a talent for fiction-writing. Honestly.

Anyway, regarding licensing of guns, I wouldn't have a problem with it if it weren't based on the premise that people associated with the government are of a higher status than the rest of us. We are expected to ask them for permission to have the means of protecting ourselves and our families, while they can do as they please as long as they operate under color of authority.

I personally don't see it as a liberal versus conservative issue, though GOP propagandists like Ann Coulter would have us believe otherwise (and it wasn't long ago that I did believe otherwise). With the rise of the neocons -- essentially Zionist warmongers who pretend to be conservative in order to hijack the national security agenda -- the term "conservative" has little meaning anymore in America anyhow.

Both mainstream parties are big spenders, supporters of big government, and anti-freedom, but one is Marxist and the other is increasingly (Judeo-)fascist. Neither really believes in the Second Amendment -- even the NRA only views gun rights as a matter of hunting, target shooting, or protection against burglars. And we can bet our asses that neither major party believes we lowly peons should have the right to experiment with explosives! They perceive such things as a tremendous threat to their power.

For anyone who lives in an area that requires the licensing of guns (and I personally own rifles that are on record with the state pigs, since the stores where I bought them had to send that information), I would advise going ahead and getting the license. If the shit hits the fan someday and the pigs come looking for your weapons, then use them for their intended purpose. Everyone dies someday anyway, so why not make the world a better place on the way out and take a few bastards with you?

I wish at least a few people would have shot at the pigs and National Guard traitors who were unconstitutionally rounding up guns after Katrina. That's what the Second Amendment is there for! I realize that it's easier said than done -- especially for those with wives and kids -- but at what point do we FINALLY stand up and show some spine? When the law says we have to give a blow job to any pig who demands one? By then it will be too late.

I am all for gun control, let the police and military be the first to be disarmed, then I will give up my weapons.Amen to that.

[tmp]

I'm in favor of disarming the police. They're the least trustworthy people
who carry guns. Katrina proved this. They confiscated guns from the people
least likely to put up any resistance instead of going after the gangbangers
who were shooting at them, rescue workers, and everybody else. Pussies to
be sure. Further, it proves that gun registration leads to confiscation. That
fucking mayor, Ray Nagin, should have been tried, convicted, and executed
for treason for that confiscation order !

Growing up I had to deal with bullies. This was during the late 60s and early
70s. We didn't go to the teacher or principal. We used baseball bats for
these assholes ! A little broken bone goes a long way in changing attitudes.

[Kaydon]

Now they're tryin' to take my guns away
And that would be just fine
If you take'em away from the criminals first
I'll gladly give ya mine


Gun registration is a good idea in theory, but all it is, is a tool for them to disarm you.

[megalomania]

Yes, I wrote the Sedgwick story, took about 10 minutes, and I even went for a British flair :) I have been putting off writing my book, so my creativity escapes through little short stories now and again.

[Bugeye]

Whilst I have owned rifles in my past, I must say that the sight of the powers that be tying up Katrina victims and searching their houses followed by the forced confiscation of their weapons has stayed with me since I first saw the clip on SBS.

I have never been a "pro gun" person before this and was quite unaffected by the gun bans and registration requirements that came before and after the Port Arthur incident. However, since the Katrina incident I have become more and more aware of the feelings and foresight that the US forefathers had in their including guns in the US Constitution.

Sadly, if anything does ever become revolutionary here in Australia, most people will simply bend over and take it up the ar*&. Those that would like to be revolutionary will simply not know where to turn to.

Despite the newspapers saying that "Black market guns" are "everywhere" the real situation on the ground is that most criminals wouldn't even know where to go to find guns as is evident by the use of other weapons in crime statistics over the last few years.

Gun control has worked well in Australia and the amount of people that are quite happy to be "registered" is sad. Our forefathers at the Eureka stockade would look upon us today in shame.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

From a generalist perspective the NRA is actually one of the biggest impediments to true 2nd Amendment implementation we have. The more the discussion is framed in the context of "sport" firearms usage; the more the 2nd Amendment is watered down.

Personally I vigorously disagree that "gun registration is a good idea in theory". ANYTIME we focus on an OBJECT instead of behaviour for dealing with an issue such as crime, we are utilizing "feel good" legislation. It's not easy for some people to bring a minor to trial as an adult. But if the circumstances are such that the minor commits an offense and has the capacities of an adult; that is what must be done.

A Hell of a lot of these gun laws, etc grew out of that issue. A juvenile "gang member" (see minority-bully) shoots up some home, knowing full well that a mother and infant are there and a 2 year old little innocent girl dies.
Well, we can't try the fucking taco as an adult or even think that the little sub-human is responsible (not if we want the VOTES of the Barrio) so we blame the OBJECT and rally the troops around "an assault on milled steel and wood". As laughable as that may seem superficially, that's the agenda, as I see it. You can substitute any walking joke-type drooling idiot for the gang member; they are basically similar garbage.....

[Bugeye]

From a generalist perspective the NRA is actually one of the biggest impediments to true 2nd Amendment implementation we have. The more the discussion is framed in the context of "sport" firearms usage; the more the 2nd Amendment is watered down.


Not only would I agree with you on that statement, I would also add that the philosophising of the "intent" of the forefathers in the US in regards to the 2nd Amendments has caused a great deal of meaning to be lost to those who need it the most. It seems relatively moot to me when reading such passages as the first inaugural speech by Abraham Lincoln.

Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it.

Kind of says it all. For true democracy, power should be in the hands of the people and in our modern era power means weapons, not the ability to stand in a parade kilometres from the action in a fenced off "free speech zone"

[Code Red]

Having a firearms permit is a great idea, and I totally disagree that it will hinder you or your actions in time of desperation.
Being able to purchase ammunition legally without having to pay over-priced "black market" rates to some sub-human gook or raghead is all worth getting a permit.
For example, when buying ammunition, nothing is noted or recorded. So when I buy 500 rounds of 5.56mm, no eyebrows are raised.
Now, 5.56 is legal in Australia, and the guy at the gunshop just thinks "yep, that fits your Remington", when in fact, it fits my Kalishnakov or M16 just as well!
As to not being able to purchase firearms without a permit being "bullshit", just take a nice long drive out the city, visit rural towns where the properties are huge and the people derelict. Lots of "farmers" or "bushies" owned some great rifles, SKS' and other cheap semi-autos, who never handed them back in any "buy back" (or government theft) before compulsory registration.
Visiting a bar/pub is the best place to find people willing to sell unwanted "tools".
Pistols on the other hand are much dearer and harder to come by, so good cheap rifles and shotguns for the win!

[Bugeye]

Having a firearms permit is a great idea, and I totally disagree that it will hinder you or your actions in time of desperation.

Upon what do you base this totally upbeat idea?

Also as to the ready availability of long arms in the bush, I can say that you know not of what you speak. I reside in the bush and those farmers are quite prepared to hang on to their arms and have no intentions of selling them. The police also do sweeps for cached weapons on farms and have been finding them every few months.

[festergrump]

Code Red, you think gun registration is a GOOD idea??? (am I halucinating this post?).

The "guy at the gunshop" isn't going to be the one kicking in your door "post Katrina" style when they (TPTB) decide that even owning that Remington is too much for the common man to need worry about. In fact, he'll have problems of his own when it comes down to that (like surrendering all YOUR previous paperwork and records of sales transactions).

By registering, you just went from being a suspected gunowner (like everyone else, gunowner or not) to top of the list confirmed gunowner. Those people's homes will be visited first and repeatedly after any sort of mandatory gun roundup. It won't be a buyback next time, either, most likely. It'll be a forced confiscation with troops searching every crevice of your property for the guns they now KNOW you have.

Registering is affirmation to TPTB that you bow down and concede to their views that permission must be granted by them to own a firearm. I don't need anyone's permission to do anything that doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights to happiness. I am FREE! So long as I have air in my lungs I will do what I want... and anyone who'd like to try and stop me will suffer whatever consequences I see fit to employ to remain free, period! If I win I remain free and if they win I die free.

Registration is only one of the first steps toward complete disarmament. How can anyone not see that?

I agree with Bugeye that buying weapons from rural folks isn't all that easy a task. Not only are they wanting to hang on to them the more the government wants to remove them from society at large, any stranger asking about guns will likely be viewed as a possible informant for a future sting operation. You'll have to really know someone to be able to find any for sale, and the price will be astronomical because they are forbidden.


From a generalist perspective the NRA is actually one of the biggest impediments to true 2nd Amendment implementation we have. The more the discussion is framed in the context of "sport" firearms usage; the more the 2nd Amendment is watered down.

Very true. Many people don't understand that the NRA has become a company (manufacturing false hopes? :confused:) in the sense that it loves the money it generates entirely too much by using the very same scare tactics that the "war on terror" does. Just like Big Pharma, it will never willingly "cure" anything or win the fight, only continue to rally up suckers to line their pockets for them.

Who needs the NRA to speak for them, anyway? If everyone just refused compliance with any law that went against the Constitution to begin with, all those laws would be moot. There's no way other than threat of lethal force they can impose such laws on the people in such massive numbers, and if they tried that it would cause a mass revolution.

I believe the first step to winning our freedoms back from TPTB is to merely disregard their petty laws completely, not immediately marching on them violently like many others seem to advocate. Let them bring the fight to you personally, then react with whatever force is necessary to continue living as a free man. If even one out of every ten Americans had a spine, they'd get the picture that we're not gonna go for this bullshit anymore.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Superb post, fester! But I think what Code Red meant was only that a permit won't stop you from fighting back when the pigs come for those guns they know you have.

If you can buy ammo a lot more cheaply and easily with a permit than without one (because in your country gun stores make you show a gun permit when buying ammo), and if you know you're going to be bugging out to do a little sniping anyway when the pigs start going around your town, then ultimately it doesn't matter if you have a permit because you're going to be fighting the pigs just the same. The only difference is that you'll have stocked up on ammo more cheaply. So for some people, in some situations, it might not be a bad idea to pretend to be good little sheeple while sharpening one's fangs and claws.

On the other hand, many of the people who register their guns will pussy out and turn them in when ordered to do so. I agree on principle that registration is offensive, but it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if when that order came to "turn them in," everyone said "fuck you" in unison and dared the pigs to come try their luck.

So the way I see it, the problem isn't so much one of registration versus non-registration, but one of balls versus lack of balls. Far too many gun owners pride themselves on being "law-abiding" -- as if that were something to be proud of -- and far too many wouldn't shoot at the pigs even if the latter kicked in their doors and started molesting their daughters. They act as if the douche bags who write and enforce oppressive laws are gods who must always be obeyed like the laws of physics. Disgusting!

Today's gun owners are FAR too "sane," "reasonable," and "civilized." The world needs more "nuts" who just don't give a fuck -- who are willing to give up everything rather than kneel before their would-be masters.

Also, you're exactly right about the NRA. When I hear people say, "Support the NRA or we'll lose our gun rights!" I want to puke my guts. Being a member of the NRA is fine (I have to be because my private gun range requires it), but depending on that organization, or any legal wrangling, for one's rights is very weak. Rights aren't something you beg for; rights are something you demand and, if necessary, take.

So, I'm with you all the way. At my discretion, I'll continue to break laws that are unreasonable or that exist only to control me, and I'll follow the ones that make sense. If they start going around to round up guns, then that's when I'll leave my house for the last time and go do a little pig hunting. "Anyone can be king for a day." :D

[Kaydon]

On paper the concept of gun registration and permits, etc. are good ideas, but they fail miserably in practice.

Some would say gun registration keeps guns out of the hands of scumbags, well the cold truth of the matter is the scum will have guns whether you give them to them or not, there's no way to stop the scum from getting guns - even if you banned guns, they would still locate and acquire guns.

I mean think about it, look at places like Sierra Leone and Somalia, complete shit holes, no economy whatsoever, but they've got AK-47's and Browning .50 Machine Guns, mounted on some of the most reliable trucks made like Toyota minitrucks and the like.

Take my guns, I take your life.

My rights mean more to me than anything else, and that's the problem today.. people care more about their stupid Lexus than their personal rights and freedoms, they care more about that uber 1337 47" Plasma 1080i HD Television that they "pwn n00bs" with on their Xbox or PS than their freedoms and rights... Motherfuckers are too damn materialistic!

We have a powerful media at our disposal, the Internet.

I am FREE! So long as I have air in my lungs I will do what I want... and anyone who'd like to try and stop me will suffer whatever consequences I see fit to employ to remain free, period! If I win I remain free and if they win I die free.

I concur.

[Code Red]

Upon what do you base this totally upbeat idea?


Like I said or tried to say.......

Having a permit, or being able to own a permit is great! Ammunition is cheap and readily available, with no suspicions raised when purchasing bulk lots!
Nobody has to know what cailbre firearm you really do own when purchasing ammunition.
So, putting this as basic as I possibly can.....

You have a permit and own a .223 which you legally purchased, your farmer grandfather kicked the bucket and left you with all sorts of unregistered rifles. Now, you can easily buy ammunition for your "unknown" firearms, without anybody knowing!

As for your other comment, regarding availabilty of firearms, I know what I know, I need to prove nothing to you. So, believe it or not, doesn't worry me the slightest!


festergrump;
Me thinking gun registration is a good idea?? Ummmm, yes, you are hallucinating! Read the post correctly or hold back on the drugs! :rolleyes:

[nbk2000]

And it's not like the gun store owner is going to tell Them about the guy who buys 10 different calibers of ammunition by the case, when They come around with the list. ;) :p

[Kaydon]

Well, the way I see it with Code Red's theory...

You buy ammunition for these rifles, what the FedGov will do is assume you have the most accurate of rifles for that calibre, or some such... This will give them "probable cause" to ask for a warrant, the judge, thinking you're a "domestic terrorist" will sign off on the warrant.. Suddenly, while you're eating dinner with your family BOOM down goes the door and you're whisked away to a jail cell and your weapons confiscated..

[Alexires]

Too right Kaydon.

Those of you that live in the US are in a fantasy land. Here in Nannyland, if we tried to buy a box load of ammo, the Feds would know about it.

Unfortunately, if you want to get your hands on some unlisted pieces of metal and wood, you need to get into drug rings, which isn't a very nice place to be really....not to mention overpriced.

Australia is fucked up. Really fucked up.

I'm rather split on getting a license. I hate the idea of gun control for civilians, and I think that it is total bullshit, but then again... If you get a license, you can get a gun. That is the main attraction.

Yes, I would be on a list, but I probably already am just for being here.

Otherwise, get to know someone that has a license, and then you can either get him to buy ammo, or get him to buy the stuff to hand load... and deal with the rest.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

In the main, there is really no harm in getting the license. It's after the fact, in that you are not part of the voting public (that) made that a fact of life in the first place.

One of the best little booklets I had read in a long time dealt with the emergency manufacture of a series of explosive devices that an individual could make with only ammunition to work with. It was published by our government (1962) for the armed forces.

Having the ability to buy something is worth the responsibility, IMO.

[Kaydon]

Guess my idea of moving to Australia is a bad one.. Fuck, is there no where else to live?

What you could do, is buy a .223 Remington, and register and license with that, then the gov might think you're nothing more than a hunter or sport shooter

But you can build an AR-15, and need no paper work :)

To my knowledge, you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chambered gun, but not vice versa and all I know is that the .223 is loaded to lower pressures than the 5.56 which could fairly easily be fixed :)

http://patriotpublications.com/

Good book on building your own AR.

[Bugeye]

Everyone who says getting a licence and therefore being listed is not such a bad thing are also saying by default that things will stay the way that they are.

This however is patently not true.

There is nothing to prevent future governments from increasing the weapons bans to a much narrower range. If you have a weapons license, they WILL knock on your door and remove your weapons from you since they have it on record that you do have them. If you don't have a license but have somehow managed to get a weapon and ammunition, then you are in a much more comfortable position.

One thing has been consistent in Australia for the last few decades, that is NO laws have relaxed on firearms and the new laws are always more draconian. To assume that things will stay roughly how they are is short sighted and not fitting with the facts at hand.

[Alexires]

Bugeye - I definitely see where you are coming from and agree with you.

Unfortunately, it isn't like unlicensed weapons are falling out of the sky here...

Such a dilemma. I know what I would certainly rather...

[Jacks Complete]

There's a UK gun group where the moderator uses the sig. "Only three things are certain: death, taxes and stupid gun laws."

And he is right. Get your ticket, and stock up, if you can. Bury your stuff someplace far away that will stay secure, leave no prints, no DNA, etc. and make damned sure you can tell if the bastards have found it and bugged it before you haul it out and take it away! (That's probable cause right there!)

That's what I would do if I could.

[cadaver]

Although we have a new government here in Aus now, from my research, I do not think the new Rudd government is an improvement in the firearms regard.

The new labour government seems hell bent on providing overarching federal oversight of the states in "important" matters such as education. Whilst no specifics have been mentioned about firearms, it would not surprise me if within this term all the state laws become "standard"

[Alexires]

Cadaver, I believe the same thing. New government, same bullshit.

Labor (note the spelling Cadaver) is no different to Liberal. Rudd's election is the death of political ideology. With increased Global Citizenship, the wants and "needs" of people become the same, meaning that for a political party to be elected, they must spout the same shit as all the other political parties to appeal to the "majority". In doing so, they must kill unpopular ideology within their own party and this causes them to migrate towards one another.

Vote for the puppet on the left, or the puppet on the right?

Welcome to the fucked voting system of compulsory representative "democracy".

Rudd will be no better than Howard. He might look better, and offer things that make him look good, but he's just another political piece of shit that creates a façade of actually giving a damn about our country.

Those that prize power above all else are, by definition, the worst people for politician in a democracy.

Fucking bullshit political systems.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Once a law is in place there is generally no return to a previous scenario. I deeply doubt that the Australian government will be giving back any firearms privileges to the public. Any return to previous laws would just not have any "legs".

Can you picture ANY politician saying "It's time that we have arms once again."
The backlash from the school-yard shooting incident was so powerful that many people in Australia felt compelled to give up their firearms as a political/social statement in itself (IMO).

[cadaver]

With increased Global Citizenship, the wants and "needs" of people become the same, meaning that for a political party to be elected, they must spout the same shit as all the other political parties to appeal to the "majority"......

Therefore the real problem is the stupidity of the masses.

Where guns are concerned, as charles said, it will not get any better since the average lemming believes what they are told and once it is in their upper empty bone pocket, it becomes a self supporting belief unless something so catastrophic occurs so as to snap them to awareness.

In other words, it won't happen without the revolution and the revolution won't happen without the guns. Seems we are in for a long ride.