US House Bill 4128

[LibertyOrDeath]

US House Bill 4128: "Criminal Code Modernization and Simplification Act of 2007"

Charles brought this up on the "Jews" thread (here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=97603&postcount=15)), and I thought it might be worthy of its own thread. You can read the bill online by going HERE (http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/110_HR_4128.html) and clicking on "Read the Bill".

I haven't had a chance to do more than skim over this, as I've only just become aware of it. I'm not certain whether or not it's any worse than what's already on the books, but in any case it sure reads like tyranny to me. A large number of these laws divide the nation into rulers and the ruled, those who must be obeyed and those who must show obedience. :mad:

Sections 261-265 are probably the worst. From Section 265:

(a) IN GENERAL- Whoever--

`(1) knowingly advocates, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the Government of the United States or the government of any State, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government;

`(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence; or

`(3) organizes or helps to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof;

shall be imprisoned not more than 20 years, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following the conviction.
In other words, to even say something like, "I wish the American people would rise up in arms and restore the federal government to its constitutional boundaries," is to commit a federal crime punishable by up to 20 years in prison. After all, you and I were born into slavery and OWE allegiance to the US Government (note how they even used a capital "G" as if the US government were some kind of god), no matter what that government does or how oppressive it becomes.

Here's another nice little gem:

Sec. 296. Civil disorders

`(a) OFFENSE- Whoever--

`(1) teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm or explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder which is in or affects interstate or foreign commerce or the performance of any federally protected function;

`(2) transports or manufactures for transportation in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or explosive or incendiary device, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be used unlawfully in furtherance of a civil disorder; or

`(3) commits or attempts to commit any act to obstruct, impede, or interfere with any fireman or law enforcement officer lawfully engaged in the lawful performance of official duties incident to and during the commission of a civil disorder which is in or affects commerce or the conduct or performance of any federally protected function;

shall be imprisoned not more than five years.

`(b) LAW ENFORCMENT EXCLUSION- Nothing in this section makes unlawful any act of any law enforcement officer which is performed in the lawful performance of official duties.

Of course there's ALWAYS an exclusion for the pigs -- for the "knights" who enforce the will of the "lords" on their "serfs." This is fucking feudalism all over again!

And of course there are the usual atrocious laws against victimless crimes involving drugs, guns, etc. If anyone else sees anything of particular interest in that bill, please point it out.

I find this bill (and, really, all similar laws) HIGHLY offensive, and I'll have none of it. I don't owe allegiance to any government or anyone else except for myself, my family, and my friends and those who share my values. The illegitimate, unconstitutional government of this country can go fuck itself. I, not they, will make all final decisions regarding my actions and speech, now until the day I die. And if it's between 20 years in prison and death, then I choose death, but I'll sure as hell take some pigs with me. :mad:

[Kaydon]

So much for our Right to Revolution. I wish I could bring Thomas Jefferson back from the dead just so he could see what this country has turned into, he would likely die instantly of a heart attack...

The illegitimate, unconstitutional government of this country can go fuck itself. I, not they, will make all final decisions regarding my actions and speech, now until the day I die. And if it's between 20 years in prison and death, then I choose death, but I'll sure as hell take some pigs with me.

Damn right.

I think I'm breaking everything outlined in that bill. Ohwell!

What really pisses me off about this Bill is that it's not mentioned in the media, therefore allowing the FedGov to arrest and imprison people unaware of the Bill, period... That's just.. fucked up.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This bill IS highly offensive. The likelihood of it passing is considerable. What this would mean is that most anyone giving any opinion, information, etc regarding energetic materials, firearms, whatever the fucking fed gov finds "undesirable" will be a felon.
I personally, find this the worst form of tyranny as it is "flexible" to fit almost any definition. I read through the Library of Congress web-site [in the morning with my coffee] and found that gem. The complete bill should be available for study; as are most any legislation proposed before the House or Senate. Exceptions are made where there is specific National Security issues in the proposal. But even then (unless the whole of the Bill is a NS oriented bill) there is often a title and Brief. This little sweetheart has chunks missing from the public viewing! .....Go figure!
I am making it my business to keep up with this shit; not because I think that it's a unique issue...but that it should come to pass in a supposedly "conservative" administration. The President has not only proved himself an extremely poor communicator, but a "country club conservative" with little care for the Constitution.

[Kaydon]

The same man that took the oath to uphold the Constitution, called the Constitution a "god damned piece of paper."

[Rbick]

So much for our Right to Revolution. I wish I could bring Thomas Jefferson back from the dead just so he could see what this country has turned into, he would likely die instantly of a heart attack...

Very good point Kaydon. Our country is so far removed from what it was meant to be, its just disgusting. Lets just say that if (and when) there is a revolution, I will be right on the front lines fighting for our freedoms back. Oops, I just broke a law outlined in that bill... :p

I admit, we do have a lot and are very lucky to live in this country. Take my word for it, people in Iraq, for instance, don't have shit. But its getting to the point where power hungry ass holes are making it impossible to ignore that something needs to be done.

[Kaydon]

While we do live in one of the world's better countries, that's often used an excuse for Average Joe to allow his homeland to be turned into a Communist state. The knowledgeable American says "House Bill 2148 is another way for the Government to take away our rights and liberties" whereas Average Joe says " I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else! Go America!"

Average Joe is the same schmuck who went out and bought an American Flag to put on his car like all the other trendy assholes, and when everyone stopped flying them, did he continue with pride? Hell no! America is about fads and trends, and that includes Patriotism.

People look at Patriots like they're terrorists, and thanks to bills like this one we're labeled as Terrorists by the public, and whatever the majority opinion is, is what will be believed. David Koresh and Randy Weaver come immediately to mind.

Bills like this are going to make Forums like this illegal, remember Raise The Fist? Bills like this are going to make all interesting discussion illegal, personally I love the kinds of topics that go on here and the information on this forum can't be found anywhere else on the net. The Forum is a great thing, and bills like this will likely put pressure on the owners of this Forum. I can't say this for sure, though.

It's just disgusting the American public has been duped into accepting these vile bills and the propaganda used to back them without resistance..

[Aristocles]

This document sure seems plastic enough to grab just about anyone TPTB want. (I wonder how "new" this really is, it has ben my experience- literally, as it were- that if they want you they'll get you. Trumped up bullshit, and all...

I guess this is what it has come to... well, at least at this 'moment'. The inertial mass we call the US is sliding inevitably into the sewer, much like a turd.

For a long time, I have thought it would end as Aristotle said all Democracies (yeah, it's a bit blurry to me when exactly we became one) do, to wit: in a shithole of factions, with rule by the masses (read third world muds). But alas it seems we are headed in a different direction? Sort of an Oligarchic Leviathon...

It is strange to say (type), but I'd trust folks who most think are nutty conspiracists, neo-nazi lunatics, survivalist wackos, or any host of other pejoratives, to run things more so than the politicos we now have.

Aristocles, hunkers down and awaits the worst :D

Addendum: Kaydon, I'd add this guy to your list of patriots; a letter he (Robert Jay Mathews) wrote, being read:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VZsiHOUmBk&feature=related

[Gammaray1981]

Dear sweet lord... You people are screwed. And if it passes in the US of Admin, we're next. This: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4099/ is interesting, especially the section on the first amendment.


The USA entrenches freedom of speech in the First Amendment to the Constitution, which rightly elevates it as the most important of our basic rights. It is therefore a sad irony that the ‘war against terror’, which is being waged by the USA and Britain, has resulted in the steady erosion of free speech all over the world, including right here in the UK.

In Britain, the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act bans political demonstrations outside the Houses of Parliament without special authorisation from the police; Section 44 stop and search is routinely used to hassle peaceful protesters; and as is being seen in a recent case that is going before the courts, the police are openly assaulting journalists on political demonstrations, and then hiding behind the excuse of ‘security’.

Elsewhere in the world, despots are borrowing the rhetoric of ‘fighting terrorism’ to excuse the stifling of dissent on a grander scale. Mugabe has banned protests in Zimbabwe, and Musharraf - who is backed by the USA - is engaging in a brutal crackdown on his political opponents by branding them all ‘terrorists’.

The real tragedy comes whenever free speech and human rights organisations try to call these odious regimes to account; they can simply laugh at these British and American-based NGOs and say: ‘Tu coque!’ - ‘You do it too.’ It is time to put the case once more for the First Amendment, and for free speech more broadly.



I'm gonna miss this place if/when this passes. I suspect The Forum might not be long for this world. "Training terrorists" gets your site shut down and your arse arrested/banged up for a quarter-century.

[megalomania]

Do you expect fairness and mercy from the totalitarian state? No citizen has ever had a right to revolution, and there would be no need for revolution if it were not for oppressive laws.

If the state is oppressive it must be destroyed by any means possible. No law, or lack thereof, changes this. Nor does an oppressive state need to hide behind the formality of a law to crush an insurrection. I honestly don’t know why they bother passing such a law when there are already so many to cover the “crimes” of violent resistance. Perhaps some of the fedgov oppressors are squeamish about murdering innocents and can salve their conscience by cloaking their atrocities behind the veil of purported anti-terror legislation.

The death by 1000 cuts is still death, but WE can see the final result where so many others are content to shrug off the wound. Guns will be outlawed, books will be burned, freedom of thought such as that espoused on The Forum will be banned, and fedgov brutality will be the norm.

This new law is nothing compared to what will come. There will be many more laws, worse laws, so many laws that there will be nothing left. Corruption, brutality, greed, misery, and death await us all at the end. Every nation dies, history has shown us this, but from the ashes of lost Amerika shall arise a new and better state. Let us not lament the loss of our freedom, but let us prepare to take it back.

[Gammaray1981]

Did you minor in public speaking or something, Mega? You're right, of course. Enshrined in your constitution or otherwise, citizens of all countries have a duty, if not a right, to depose and destroy governments which are acting in their own best interests over those of their people.

A government is a group of caretakers, assigned either by the people or by chance to maintain a situation in which the country it guides has the most beneficial possible situation for its citizens. It is, after all, defined as governing, not ruling. To rule is the privilege of a monarch or despot, and, whilst a monarchical system is both practical and, in some cases, desirable, it is not within the ideal of the former USA. The UK, nominally, has a monarchical system, but even this has been de facto superseded by a rulership of houses, similar to that of America.

Thus, whilst the deposition of the current administration of the Disunited States of Emergency would be a step in the right direction, there is an underlying situation which may be harder to remove - the acceptance of a ruling power, rather than a guiding hand, by the people. I fear that from the ashes of lost Amerika shall arise not a new and better state, but a shadow of the old one, perpetuated by the masses for whom it is the only system that offers familiarity and survivability.

OT, reminded by the K in Amerika - Why is it that the concept of nazism is so vilified? So one instance of the idea of national socialism failed miserably and caused mass death and suffering. So have several tries at capitalism!

[Unsunghero]

To be honest the thing that offends me isn't that we aren't free to do these things. The thing that bothers me is the the US is supposed to be the place we can bear arms, have free speech, etc.

In say..the UK, Australia, there are many freedoms, but to my knowledge the government doesn't have a constitution that specifically says you have the right to free speech, right to bear arms etc. To me what this says is that in those countries it IS a privelege to bear arms and have quite a bit of freedom whereas in the United States it's supposed to be a right. Sorry to those of you that live in the countries if that view seems a little fucked up.

Taking a privelege away is one thing, but taking a right away is something entirely different. A right you're supposed to be born with in the United States should be static. I honestly, would understand if the government restricted it if it was but a privelege, however it's NOT.

[Big Mac]

So much for our Right to Revolution. I wish I could bring Thomas Jefferson back from the dead just so he could see what this country has turned into, he would likely die instantly of a heart attack...

I think he'd be delighted in the new rifles we developed and then probably want to lead some into battle. I'm sure he'd be fairly pissed at our current government.

[supremebeing]

Should probably take note that this bill is only in the preliminary stages of committee activity. First of all, a vast majority of bills do not make it out of committee. Secondly, the bill is sponsored only by one Republican Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin. Take note, as said on govtrack.us that there are no cosponsors:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4128

I am also very concerned about bills of this nature. However, I will be utterly surprised if it ever makes it to debate. If that is the case, though, I suggest some sort of "mediation" strategy towards Congressmen Sensenbrenner.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I can think of a few Bills with no cosponsors that are now Law.... Sponsorship is a method of coat-tailing publicity; simply that.... Think about Clinton's years.
-{See Sen. Diane Feinstein's Internet Bill (which is now Law)}-

[UnderConstruction]

`(a) OFFENSE- Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial, or punishment, is an accessory after the fact.
So basically anyone who steps up and says that a person didn't do anything wrong is now an accessory

`(1) the term `weapon of mass destruction' means--
`(E) any lethal device or explosive;
`(3) the term `explosive' has the meaning given in section 844(j) of this title insofar that it is designed, or has the capability, to cause death, serious bodily injury, or substantial material damage; and

So now owning an explosive capable of killing somebody is owning a WMD. Gee.
`Sec. 278. Providing material support to terrorists
`(b) Definitions- As used in this section--

`(1) the term `material support or resources' means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;
`(3) the term `expert advice or assistance' means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.

So if a terrorist uses a site like RS to gain "expert advice or assistance" then whoever wrote that piece of information "shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both"?

[Bugger]

Has that ever been tested in Court yet against the Constitution? Large parts of it sound as if they may be against Article 3 section 3, and the First, Second, and Fourth Amendments. If not, the Bill looks like falling at its first legal hurdle, if anyone is arrested under it.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Generally speaking Bills like these are "padding" for Prosecutable efforts that may have a single thrust and the Government wants more to work and bargain with. I'm not saying that the Bill won't get severe challenges, it may. But generally where these things are used is where other efforts exist and the Prosecutor wants more muscle. Thus, they don't stand on their own; they piggy-back other efforts.

[inthekitchen]

Does anybody know if this bill became law?

Edit: Answered my own question:http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4128

[Bugger]

In the current (June-July 2008) issue of Nexus magazine there is a review of a book titled "How To Overthrow a Fa$cist Régime on $15 a Day", the "Fa$cist régime" referred to being the U$ Government. Presumably this book would be against Hou$e Bill 4128.

[Alexires]

Bugger - Sounds like an interesting book.

How To Overthrow a Fa$cist Régime on $15 a Day -
The highs and lows of the Bush administration from the vantage point of a political dissenter are revealed in this undaunted analysis of American government. Formerly an executive at a Fortune 500 company, Wayne Madsen quit his job and moved to Washington, DC, in 2000 to launch a journalistic, grassroots campaign that sought to cut through media hype and unveil the truth behind the politics. Selections of his writings are included, covering issues ranging from 9/11 and the Iraq war to the ousting of Bill Frist and Rick Santorum. As Madsen’s whistle-blowing became more pronounced, his financial support from sources within the capital dwindled. But as this riveting account shows, some battles can be fought even on a shoestring budget.