Palestine and Israel (reply to WWII)

[LibertyOrDeath]

WWII and I started to get into a discussion about this on another thread, so rather than sidetrack that thread I thought I'd put my response here.

Here's the post I'm replying to: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=98159&postcount=9

How is it that the Palestinians bomb Israeli civilian city bus driver and the innocent passengers ? Yet, you will never see Israeli soldiers bombing the Palestinian bus service if they have one or drive into the Palestinian areas with a bomb laden taxi-cab ?No, but you see Israelis firing missiles from helicopters and jets into crowded Palestinian marketplaces and apartment buildings, killing many civilians just to get one or two suspected guerrillas. We also see Israeli snipers using Palestinian schoolchildren for target practice.

Research the statistics. Which side has killed more innocents on the other side? The answer is the Israelis, by a landslide. And they have a MUCH more powerful military and better weapons and equipment, so they have no excuse.

I think it is about time that the Palestinians leave Israel alone.LOL, I think you have that backwards. Who is occupying whom, here? The Israelis are the aggressors in this picture, and they always have been. Israel was founded by terrorist acts such as the King David Hotel bombing and the ethnic cleansing of Arab villages. Prior to the arrival of the Zionists, the Arabs in that area lived in peace with the Jewish minority. Even anti-Zionist Jews point this out:

http://nkusa.org/

The Wall is there to protect not just the Israelis but both of them on each side so that peace can co-exist.The wall would be a fine idea if it didn't go right through Palestinian land. It's just another land grab.

In church I was told that the land rightfully belongs to Israel and it makes sense. The U.N. gave the land to Israel in one day, prophetically just like it was told in the Bible, in one day, Israel was founded as God had said in the Bible.You were told wrong. While I gave up on Christianity years ago, I used to study the Bible quite extensively. What you're referring to is a heretical form of Christianity known as "Christian Zionism." And the only reason that "prophecy" came true is because human beings (Jews) did everything in their power to make it happen.

The Bible teaches that Christians (both Jewish and gentile) replaced the unbelieving Jews as God's chosen people and the heirs of Abraham's promise. This theme is repeated time and time again in the New Testament. For example, the parable of the wedding guests obvious refers to the Jews rejecting Christ and being replaced by the gentiles. This is also what is meant by Jesus' phrase, "Many who were first will be last, and the last, first." The Jews were originally first in line to receive God's blessings, but they rejected their messiah; thus, they were sent to the back of the line, replaced by the gentiles.

Galatians 3:28-29 also shows that Jews are no longer "special" in God's eyes; everyone who believes in Jesus is now considered one of the "Chosen People":

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you read the New Testament again with this theme in mind, you'll see how wrong the Christian Zionists are when they ascribe special importance to current world events. Israel is an evil nation that has fooled many into thinking it's good.

Now another one is, how is strapping on explosives and walking into an Israeli restaurant exactly a military strategy ? It is not even a military strategy. It is terrorism, pure and simple.It's no more terrorism than firing missiles into crowds or bombing utility stations and causing millions of people -- including women, children, the elderly in nursing homes and the sick and dying in hospitals -- to lose their electricity and water. That's a war crime known as "collective punishment."

How would you like it if one of your loved ones died in a hospital because the power was deliberately cut? How would you feel if your mother or daughter were shot for an Israeli sniper's amusement? How would you feel if you grew up watching your parents get beaten, spat upon, and insulted by laughing Israeli soldiers at checkpoints just for wanting to go to work every day?

Frankly, I'm amazed a lot more Palestinians don't become guerrillas or suicide bombers under those conditions. If I were one of them, I'd certainly resist in any way possible. And by the way, most Israeli "civilians" are reserve members of the military, and most are complicit in the crimes committed against the nearly-helpless Palestinians.

Do you see any Israelis walking into a Palestinian internet cafe and bombing themselves, obviously you will never see that happen.No, because they don't have to do anything that requires such courage. Instead, you see the Jews launching missiles from helicopters and jets into apartment buildings. If the Palestinians had Apaches and F-16s, then maybe they wouldn't need to use suicide bombers.

Most of the U.S. Military serving overseas are serving our country with honor, pride and dignityThey think they are, but they're actually serving Israel, the agents of which suckered America into taking out Saddam and occupying Iraq. To the Jewish supremacists and their lackeys (like Bush), Americans exist only to serve Israel. This has been covered in Issues & Opinions here, with a lot of evidence provided.

I think alots of the news media is very anti-semitic today and I always go to www.honestreporting.com anytime the arabs or the news media like the British BBC are saying things about Israel then I just check to see what the real story is on that.LOL, there's a real unbiased source. Take a look at who runs that site (click on "About Us"). They're all Jews! But what do you expect?

The mainstream media is anything but anti-Semitic; in fact, most of it is owned by Jews. Because of this, Americans tend to support Israel over the Palestinians because they've been taught that the Israelis are poor little innocent victims who are surrounded by hostile neighbors. The reality is far, far different.

I'm a white man who has no Arab background or even any Arab friends. I don't have a dog in the fight over there. But I side with the Arabs because I tend to sympathize with the underdog and, most important, I know what the Jewish supremacists have been doing to America.

My country has been subverted by those bastards. For decades we've been sending them billions of our tax dollars and vetoing every UN resolution condemning their war crimes. Now we're fighting a war for them in Iraq, spending lives as well as running up an astronomical national debt! The Palestinians aren't just fighting their enemies; they're fighting America's, too. Most Americans don't realize this, but I do.

If you have FTP access, I highly recommend that you read Jewish Supremacism by David Duke (it may also be available elsewhere online). It will open your eyes.

[DaedalusX]

We also see Israeli snipers using Palestinian schoolchildren for target practice.


I don't care who you are; but you lost all credibility right there.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Did I? They've done that and worse. Do a little homework before you impugn my credibility:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1332219,00.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/23/1085250870992.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/12/1050069119249.html

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150422002

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html

And my personal favorite:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0%2C%2C2196019%2C00.html

Yishai-Karin, in an interview with Haaretz, described how her research came out of her own experience as a soldier at an army base in Rafah in the Gaza Strip. She interviewed 18 ordinary soldiers and three officers whom she had served with in Gaza. The soldiers described how the violence was encouraged by some commanders. One soldier recalled: 'After two months in Rafah, a [new] commanding officer arrived... So we do a first patrol with him. It's 6am, Rafah is under curfew, there isn't so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers.

'He grabbed the boy. I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock...

'The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

These are despicable war crimes, pure and simple. Yes, the Palestinians have committed some as well, but they're using terror for defense and revenge against the Israelis, who are the aggressors. Israelis have committed the vast majority of the terrorism in this conflict, and they're the ones who are being enabled by the US -- thanks to the stranglehold of the Israeli lobby on the US government.

[Joxer]

@Liberty
Some people see it, some dont want to see it. If "israel" gets tossed into the Med, I wont shed a tear. There are no innocents living there (except for the kids, and I want no harm to come to them, but their blood is on their parents heads IMO)

All anyone has to do is google "israel massacres" and read.

[Aristocles]

Agreed, LOD has his facts pretty much in order.

I have also heard stories of target practice using schoolchildren.

This seems a reasonably fair account of- just one example- the Sabra and Shatila massacre:

"In an area under Israeli army control, Christian militiamen were permitted to enter two undefended Palestinian refugee camps leading to a massacre of hundreds to thousands of civilians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

[Enkidu]

I don't care who you are; but you lost all credibility right there.

Liberty is using the same tactics as the American Media, including sensationalism and presenting 'concise information,' which is misleading in the sense that it does not tell the whole truth.

We also see Israeli snipers using Palestinian schoolchildren for target practice.

When I think of an army using humans for some type of target practice, I think of all the pictures I have seen of the Japanese using civilians or captured enemy soldiers for bayonet drills. Obviously, the Israeli government doesn't tie schoolgirls or five year olds to a post at the 600m mark and shoot at them. All the incidents occurred during combat operations and were committed by individuals or small groups of soldiers. The Israeli government and army, at least officially, does not condone or support actions such as the direct targeting of civilians.

... which brings us to two more points; they are 1) that in nearly every instance of violence against civilians (to which Liberty linked), Israeli soldiers who witnessed the acts characterized them as despicable, indicating the difference between the (mostly) civilized Israelis and the (mostly) barbaric Palestinians and 2) that Hamas (the ruling party in Palestinian territories) encourages the direct targeting of civilians, while the Israeli government throws its soldiers in jail for it.

This link is in response to Liberty's link about the British peace activist killed by an Isreali sniper.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article305353.ece

Israelis (often) punish their own. Hamas (always) refuses to.

No, but you see Israelis firing missiles from helicopters and jets into crowded Palestinian marketplaces and apartment buildings, killing many civilians just to get one or two suspected guerrillas.

Yep. Although this doesn't happen as often as Liberty makes it sound.

Aiding and abetting is a serious offense over there. If you live with a suicide bomber, and you get killed with him by a missile, good riddance to you.

If the Palestinian squatters hide the suicidal/homicidal maniacs in their communities, they shouldn't be surprised about becoming collateral damage.

---

I will type up a couple paragraphs about Israeli/Egyptian relations as opposed to Israeli/Palestinian relations.

[cadaver]

From my personal perspective I have no personal attachment to either party and both do bad things. I lose no sleep if any of these things happen to either side, it's just another news story.

I don't give a crap about any religious rantings or even about how nation states got their inception. No countries history is without massacres and abuses. But even so, I would rather live in modern Australia than in a seventeenth century aboriginal tribal society.

Whilst I think that no system is perfect, if given the option of living under modern Islamic law (Sharia) or modern Israeli law, I would choose the latter by a landslide. It is not even a close comparison.

I prefer the life of the modern world and not that of 7th century caravan raiders.

[Kaydon]

Liberty is using the same tactics as the American Media, including sensationalism and presenting 'concise information,' which is misleading in the sense that it does not tell the whole truth.

And your sources tell the whole truth? It's more along the lines of the stories you want to believe that you consider the truth.

Why do people play the "exceptions" game? See below.

All the incidents occurred during combat operations and were committed by individuals or small groups of soldiers. The Israeli government and army, at least officially, does not condone or support actions such as the direct targeting of civilians.

--
You Israel loving folks need to do some research on Israels treachery against the United States, the lies told by the Jews throughout history and the fact Israel is using the United States to fight a war with the ragheads by proxy.

[festergrump]

Sometimes the layers of zionist propaganda take many submersions in Truth to eventually flake off, Kaydon. We must remember... They've been coating it on all of us since birth layer after layer, and quite thickly, too.

It's when you strip off all of those onion-like layers and find nothing left beneath that you realize that you've been dealing with [EDIT: attempting to help] a Jew all along, and not merely a White sheeple waiting to be freed...

[Enkidu]

No one source tells the whole truth. That's why we have movies like Crash (the POS social commentary that it was). You've got to go to a bunch of different sources to try to ascertain truth.

When have I ever said anything about US/Israeli relations? Never, as far as I remember. If I had my way, the US would cut off all support now. (Or use the Jews to wage a proxy war against radical Islam and use Israel as fodder to keep the ragheads out of our land... I'm undecided.).

[Kaydon]

I guess its pretty easy to maintain that you're right and we're wrong when you have the politically-correct biased media and academia supporting you, but that doesn't detract from the validity of the arguments presented here.

Will you egalitarians ever face the facts?

[Enkidu]

Haha.

The American Media & Co. can only twist the truth so much. You have to cut through the BS to get a lead on truth..

So far, I've only seen half-truths and superstitions presented here.

I haven't seen any valid arguments... but I'll let you know when I do. ;)

[festergrump]

The American Media & Co. can only twist the truth so much. You have to cut through the BS to get a lead on truth..

I'd like to learn what you think it takes to cut through the BS, honestly. If you look to the source of "The American Media & Co.", it's clearly Jew owned, operated, and spun with their lies, yes? Yes.

What would it take to convince you that we ALL have been callousedly lied to and molded into form by an American governmental alliance with Israel which started long before any on this board were ever even born?

Want to know what it took for me? It took trying to take apart what I was led to believe my entire life and trying to back it all up with FACT. Then, when I fell short of fact and even before I learned of the RTPBs, having MAJOR gaps and indescrepancies in my 'mass-molded' belief system, my inquisitive mind made me read what the opposition felt and spoke of so passionately. (always probe the ideals of thine enemy, as insight to their mindset may lead to flaws and weaknesses). But I saw no flaws, only provable FACT.

Nobody here can force you to see anything until you, yourself lift the veil and decide to explore a bit and find out for yourself what is and what isn't true.

Links provided to closed eyes and mind are worthless... but if you read as I do and did, and attempt to find facts in support or against... you'll be a new man, I guarantee.

[WWII]

Okay, you have given me alot to read, I find some of these things hard to believe.

I have also put myself in the shoes of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

The part about Israeli soldiers sniping Palestinian schoolchildren is very unfathomable, to me.

I will need more time to really read and research what is really going on in the Middle East also I have thought of a visit to the Holy Land to see where Jesus Christ walked, the calvary cross and the Mount of Olives etc.

I also would like to see both sides of the Israeli and Palestinian societies to gain a better and more appreciative understanding that the newspapers and the t.v. nightly news do not provide.

The reality of the situation on the ground does not lie so I find many of the things I just read very hard to believe.

[WWII]

Also I have something that I have been watching on youtube ....

Watch the aftermath of the bulldozing, I have never understood why 25 houses had to be flattened when the Israelis should have just went after the specific terrorists and leave the civilian population alone. I am not sure how flattening people's homes qualify as a military strategy because that only angers more people. It would be like this ....

The British in Revolutionary War came in to flatten the American's home with cannon all 25 houses then I am upset and angry that my home has been flattened when I had nothing to do with what is going on between the Americans and the British

So while I am with my family on vacation in Israel someday, I would have to ask the Israelis over there how is bulldozing people's home exactly relevant to the situation, over there ? Maybe the Israelis have a very good reason for it. I know that war, many times does not make sense but there must be a reason for it ?

This video clip shows what the Palestinians go through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZNViirWTnk

Now in this next video clip, this shows what the Israelis go through

and I don't see how Palestinians bombing the city bus service that Israel has and this is a civilian bus and it clearly is not a military bus at all so I find this one hard to believe and I would be very angry if I was an Israeli to have to deal with a civilian bus bombing.

About this video that somebody posted:

3 days in my country - welcome;

Added: August 09, 2006
3 days in my country - welcome;
...please take 2 min to even try to understand the life here.
This isnt propaganda, it has no hate or politics - just feel what I feel for a second.

Everyday in my country, I fear to take a bus, I fear to be in public places packt with people, I fear for my family.You will never understand how it is.

Im going to the army to protect my family, not for any god or land.
Im going simply because I belive in this country and what it contributed to the world and its people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjbDo30oASo

I also want to say here, does this remind you of the Nazi bus gassings that were done in the 1930's - 1940's and why do the Palestinians use the Hitler Nazi salute ?

The more I read and research, the more mind boggling this gets.

If you subscribe to pmwvideos and MEMRIVideo, look those two up and go through all of the video clips on youtube.com then it just blows my mind what they are saying. Un-believeable.

[tiac03]

There is a saying in English and Italian: Same face, Same race.

The only difference between the Israelis and Palis is which imaginary friend they look up to and even then most of that is the same too.

The difference between the Israelis firing missiles and the Palis suicide tactics is simple. The Israelis are actually targeting a specific individual and civilian casualties are acceptable to them and expected. The Palis just blow up as many civilians as they can.

I personally don't give a flying fuck about either of them and for all I care they can keep killing each other, as long as they keep their crap in their little sandbox. Problem is they won't. So if the Israeli's start gaining an advantage other Muslim nations will start joining the cause. If the Pali's win then they will be the idol's of the rest of the Arab nations, and then the Muslims will start attempting to take over their host nations that they have infested (they have already tried making places more Muslim using our own laws against us, soon they will start using force.)

The best hope for the rest of us is a stalemate.

See all the great shit religion does for us.
:rolleyes:

A huge war's brewing and It is bound to originate in one of those countries. Only problem is that unlike all the previous big conflicts this one will take place everywhere (including our own backyard CAN+USA), and will be fought the same way the fighting is going on in Iraq.

[WWII]

Liberty or Death,

I have to wonder, This is only for example:

You are in New York City and you have your family with you vacationing in NYC okay ?

Your family uses the NYC subway or takes the metro bus then all of a sudden at the last minute, an arabic man gets on then now what is next ? After the flash of an explosion it is all over and you are in a daze, your family is all over the pavement like you saw in the video clip of the Jerusalem bus bombings ok ?

What are you going to say to the Palestinians ? More importantly, what are you going to say to the Israelis ?

This of course is hypothetical and I hope this never happens to you or anybody. That is something to think about.

I am back to reading and researching the Middle eastern situation on the internet. You have to put on your thinking hat and think about the white hat then the black hat ( good v.s. evil hats ) and see it from each side of the story.

[WWII]

I also wonder why the arabic countries in the region will not take Palestinians in ?

I mean, they respect Jesus Christ as a prophet so obviously they should be listening to Jesus Christ about loving thy neighbor as yourself which means the 22 arabic countries should be able to take the Palestinians in as their neighbors then there will be more peace.

The land is Israel's as explained in the Bible where the boundaries are that God gave to the Israelites. You know in the quran, the muslims are instructed to give the land back to the Jews and how the islamic terrorists ignore that particular verse in the quran.

[festergrump]

Everything else aside, WWII, you really need to either find that edit button or let other people post between your multiple posts. I've seen this happen many times before in the recent past and said nothing, but I do feel it's every Forumite's duty to inform another when lines are crossed if Mods are not present.

You may have just found proof of cold fusion and be eager to let us all in on the secret, but if the EDIT button is there and you fail to use it... It's post whoring, pure and simple. I'm sure the staff here would agree with me, too. It's been tried a million times and always ends up with the same result:


Newbie: Blah blah
Newbie: Oh, and Blah BLAH!
The Beast: BURP!


It's really nothing personal, just the way it's always been here...

[LibertyOrDeath]

I don't want to spend too much more time on this, but I'd like to respond to Enkidu's points:

Liberty is using the same tactics as the American Media, including sensationalism and presenting 'concise information,' which is misleading in the sense that it does not tell the whole truth.All I really did was post links to news stories that are rarely seen in the Jew-owned US media. There are many, many others out there for anyone who cares to search. The information won't come to us; we have to seek it.

Maybe I'm focusing more on one side of the story, but it's the side that rarely gets heard in the US. In the US we've been conditioned to see the Israelis as poor little innocent victims (in part because of the holocaust), but that is clearly not the case.

When I think of an army using humans for some type of target practice, I think of all the pictures I have seen of the Japanese using civilians or captured enemy soldiers for bayonet drills. Obviously, the Israeli government doesn't tie schoolgirls or five year olds to a post at the 600m mark and shoot at them.I was being slightly hyperbolic with the "target practice" remark in order to make the point that the Israelis often kill people for no good reason at all -- purely for the adrenaline rush or out of sheer hatred. This is well-known to human rights groups, and the links I posted earlier are further proof.

Yes, the Palestinians have committed attacks on civilians as well, but what choice do they have? They have to take whatever targets they can get. They don't have US-supplied F-16s or Apaches. Hell, half the time they don't even have enough food, water, or medical care. They can't afford to be nearly as selective in their targets.

The point is that this is a COMPLETELY one-sided fight. One side has ALL the advantages. This is why I can't understand why Americans tend to support the bully over the little guy. I suspect "Christian Zionism," media indoctrination, and maybe even a cultural tendency to "root for the stronger team" have a lot to do with it.

All the incidents occurred during combat operations and were committed by individuals or small groups of soldiers. The Israeli government and army, at least officially, does not condone or support actions such as the direct targeting of civilians.We don't know what they're teaching their soldiers to do. All we can do is judge them by their actions, which are atrocious. And in any event, they have no business illegally occupying that land or continuing to set up new settlements.

... which brings us to two more points; they are 1) that in nearly every instance of violence against civilians (to which Liberty linked), Israeli soldiers who witnessed the acts characterized them as despicable, indicating the difference between the (mostly) civilized Israelis and the (mostly) barbaric Palestinians...Sure, a few Israelis have expressed remorse over their killings or what they saw, but that's hardly indicative of what most Israelis think. Someone must be killing all those Palestinian civilians, and someone must be collectively punishing the Palestinians by rocketing the power station that supplies electricity to millions of innocent people. The latter is an official action, and it is a war crime.

...and 2) that Hamas (the ruling party in Palestinian territories) encourages the direct targeting of civilians, while the Israeli government throws its soldiers in jail for it.Israelis are rarely prosecuted for killing civilians. Furthermore, most Israeli "civilians" are armed members of the reserve military.

This is what Hamas has said on the subject:

“The blood of their children is not more precious than that of our children,” said the new Hamas leader in Gaza, Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi. “Let them stop killing our civilians, and we will stop killing theirs.”
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html

This link is in response to Liberty's link about the British peace activist killed by an Isreali sniper.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article305353.ece

Israelis (often) punish their own. Hamas (always) refuses to.Okay. But how often do they punish those who kill innocent Palestinians?

I don't think the sniper would have shot the peace activist if he'd been expecting to be punished. But perhaps that sniper had to be "sacrificed" in the name of relations with Britain.

Most of the time, IDF thugs can kill with impunity, and their crimes are covered up. The US helps, even if it's an American who is killed. Remember Rachel Corrie, the American girl who was "accidentally" run over by an IDF bulldozer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Incidentally, some little Jewish rodent at the University of Maryland made fun of her death with a cartoon. The Palestinians erected a memorial to her.

The incident showed very well that nonviolent resistance doesn't work with the Israelis. They'll run right over you.

Aiding and abetting is a serious offense over there. If you live with a suicide bomber, and you get killed with him by a missile, good riddance to you.And good riddance to anyone who gets suicide-bombed while associating with any member of the IDF, either active or reserve. That seems fair to me.

If the Palestinian squatters hide the suicidal/homicidal maniacs in their communities, they shouldn't be surprised about becoming collateral damage."Squatters"? LOL, who is occupying whom here?

Again I must point out that the Palestinians are forced to fight a guerrilla war. They can't face the Israeli tanks and jets openly with their AKs and improvised weaponry -- no one could. So obviously they're going to have to hide among the population. That does not excuse the Israelis' collective punishment of that population, where millions of innocents are punished along with the guilty.

Should the US nuke Florida because the 9/11 hijackers were "harbored" there and received training there? A population can't be expected to know everything that goes on in its midst.

The most important points in this debate are that (1) only one side in this conflict has a real military, (2) only one side in this conflict is occupying the other side, and (3) the US is providing military support only to the stronger side. I consider this a national disgrace and long for the day when my country is free of Zionist influence.

When have I ever said anything about US/Israeli relations? Never, as far as I remember. If I had my way, the US would cut off all support now. (Or use the Jews to wage a proxy war against radical Islam and use Israel as fodder to keep the ragheads out of our land... I'm undecided.).Well, we certainly agree on that! Sadly, the opposite is now happening -- the Jews are using the US to wage a proxy war on Israel's enemies. Of course that's going to piss off the Muslims and make them want to come here and kill us. I'm surprised more don't.

In spite of the BS line that "we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here," there is NOTHING preventing any terrorists from crossing the US border and attacking us right now. US wars for Israel are providing an incentive for them to do just that.

The US and the Muslims don't have to be enemies. They're only a danger to us if we allow them to immigrate here in substantial numbers. We should cut off Israel and bring all US troops home and use them for border/port security. Let the Jewish state do its own dirty work. George Washington warned in his farewell address about the dangers of "entangling alliances," and damn, was he ever right.

Liberty or Death,

I have to wonder, This is only for example:

You are in New York City and you have your family with you vacationing in NYC okay ?

Your family uses the NYC subway or takes the metro bus then all of a sudden at the last minute, an arabic man gets on then now what is next ? After the flash of an explosion it is all over and you are in a daze, your family is all over the pavement like you saw in the video clip of the Jerusalem bus bombings ok ?

What are you going to say to the Palestinians ? More importantly, what are you going to say to the Israelis ?You want the absolute truth? I would naturally be angry at whoever specifically was behind the bombing, but I would put a huge amount of the blame on US foreign policy. I would feel that MY family had been punished for the actions of "my" government -- sort of like I'd be mad if some guy threw a rock at a hornets' nest while I was standing nearby. My general feelings about the Palestinians and Israelis would not change.

To finish off this frightfully long post, here are some words from George Galloway on the 2006 Israeli carpet-bombing of Lebanon. He makes my point better than I could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEv0T2rwgo

[Rbick]

I didn't have time to read all of the posts here albeit the first few, so I'll make this quick, I think you guys should hear it.

We had the opportunity to work with Isreali Spec Ops at my old job. They come over and cross trained, mostly in Urban Warfare and CQM (close quarters marksmenship). During one of the runs we did, one of my buddies asked one of the soldiers why they always cleared rooms using hand grenades instead of flashbangs like we do, and pointed out that there could be children inside. His answer was, and I quote

"They're all going to become terrorists anyway"

The Isrealis were very well trained and knew what they were doing, but a response like this kind of bothered me, and I'm pretty sure he was dead serious. It turned into a discussion, although a short one. I think both sides are so desensitized to death that no one really cares.

[hatal]

This discussion is going to reiterate itself for a very long time without any progress or change in opinions. Just like the middle east crisis this thread will go on forever. Theres not much new ground left to plow here...

[tiac03]

Yes, the Palestinians have committed attacks on civilians as well, but what choice do they have? They have to take whatever targets they can get. They don't have US-supplied F-16s or Apaches. Hell, half the time they don't even have enough food, water, or medical care. They can't afford to be nearly as selective in their targets.

Again I must point out that the Palestinians are forced to fight a guerrilla war. They can't face the Israeli tanks and jets openly with their AKs and improvised weaponry .

That isn't an excuse for blowing up just anyone. Rather than Doing that maybe they should concentrate their efforts on finding ways to defeat the tanks and aircraft.

In doing that they will make the Israelis think twice before coming in with weapons they think are invincible to the Palis.


By spending all their time blowing up civilians they just piss off the Jews more and they come in with their "invincible tanks and aircraft" and fuck everyone up with very few worries.

All throughout the history of war people have been creating weapons and methods to counteract weapons that were invincible at the time. "Improvisation out of desperation." Most of the tank busters used today apart from having high tech guidance systems run on some basic principles for getting through armor. Even If they can't make them nearly as effective as commercial ones they can still put the fear of god in the drivers. Hell they have plenty of targets for experimenting on. Personally I'd rather use my head to figure out a solution to the armor and helicopter issue and test them out, than to strap explosives to myself and use it as a projectile.

Blowing up civilians is just going to piss off the soldiers, it's not going to stop them from coming into villages and stomping on little Achmed's head, in fact it will probably cause more of that.

[Enkidu]

This post will be my last in this thread.

I was being slightly hyperbolic with the "target practice" remark in order to make the point that the Israelis often kill people for no good reason at all -- purely for the adrenaline rush or out of sheer hatred.

The common name for this logical FALLACY is villainization. The technical term is an ad hominem attack.

Yes, the Palestinians have committed attacks on civilians as well, but what choice do they have? They have to take whatever targets they can get. They don't have US-supplied F-16s or Apaches. Hell, half the time they don't even have enough food, water, or medical care. They can't afford to be nearly as selective in their targets.

HAVE? HAVE? What the hell is this 'have?' That is an outright lie. They DO, and they plan to DO nothing else.

That is a rediculous paragraph. AFAIK, bullets are bullets, and a bullet from an Iranian-supplied AK-47 is just as deadly as a bullet from an American-supplied supplied M4. A Hezbollah-supplied mortar is just as deadly and as a European-supplied mortar. What about rockets? Get it touch with reality.

The point is that this is a COMPLETELY one-sided fight. One side has ALL the advantages. This is why I can't understand why Americans tend to support the bully over the little guy. I suspect "Christian Zionism," media indoctrination, and maybe even a cultural tendency to "root for the stronger team" have a lot to do with it.

Again, you appeal to our emotions instead of our intellect.

Aren't most wars fought between enemies of differing strengths? It's the nature of war. The stronger (whether in material or in resolve/support) side wins.

I suspect that we side with the Israelis because, we, as Americans, like to consider ourselves civilized. We don't like terrorists (i.e., those that kill predominantly civillians) or genocide (the destruction of a people group).

This is what Hamas has said on the subject:

“The blood of their children is not more precious than that of our children,” said the new Hamas leader in Gaza, Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi. “Let them stop killing our civilians, and we will stop killing theirs.”

Ever heard of propaganda?

Remember a couple years ago? Israel withdrew. The bombings didn't stop. Regardless of whether or not one side of the story is underreported (which it is), why can you only see one side of the story?

The [Rachel Corrie] incident showed very well that nonviolent resistance doesn't work with the Israelis. They'll run right over you.

Passive resistance doesn't work once a war has started, or especially right in the middle of a war.

Read Ghandi again, and then compare the Southern Christian Leadership Conference to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and look what happened here in the US.

"Squatters"? LOL, who is occupying whom here?

Perhaps 'squatter' isn't the right word. I was referencing all those 'Palestinians' who live in the 'refugee' camps. Had they been absorbed by the neighboring countries (instead of forced out), we would (most likely) have very little of the violence that we have today.

Should the US nuke Florida because the 9/11 hijackers were "harbored" there and received training there? A population can't be expected to know everything that goes on in its midst.

Yet another logical fallacy... this time it's the straw man fallacy.

That is a terrible comparison. Now, if there was a full fledged revolution going on in Florida, that would be a be much better comparison; and, in that case, yes, I'm sure many people be punished.

The most important points in this debate are that (1) only one side in this conflict has a real military, (2) only one side in this conflict is occupying the other side, and (3) the US is providing military support only to the stronger side.

And I ask you... who really cares? All those points are irrelevant or half-truths.

I assume you're trying to come from a 'chivalrous' angle with point number one. No one around here believes in chivalry. :)

The occupation is a result of terrorist activity. Plain and simple. The US 'occupied' Afghanistan and it was the right thing to do.

As far as #3, currently, the Palestinians are the largest per capita recipient of foreign aid in the world (at least until Hamas took over, I'm not sure about now). The US supplies (supplied?) most of it. You think that money goes for food? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

To finish off this frightfully long post, here are some words from George Galloway on the 2006 Israeli carpet-bombing of Lebanon. He makes my point better than I could:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbEv0T2rwgo

I hope that wasn't your example of unbiased commentary...

---

After your arguments are stripped down to a more neutral truth, you have no real points. All that remains is a superstitious bias against the Jews.

---

Now, I'd like to make some points to clarify my position on the Israeli / Palestinian conflict.

1) The Israeli territory should not have been created in the first place after WWII. Unfortunately, it was. This fact is the basis for rest of my opinions.

2) When it declared it's independence and fought the Israeli Arab war, it was defending itself.

3) It's been defending itself ever since, and it's not going anywhere. The Palestinians and surrounding nations can continue to fight Israel, as is their right, but they do so at their own risk. Thus, the occupations.

4) The intentional targeting of civilians is always unacceptable. Thus, I side with the Israelis. If Israel's enemies weren't terrorists, I'd probably side with them. Unfortunately, they are terrorists, and will always be terrorists.

So, we have two unfortunate realities, the first being the creation of Israel, and the second being all the goddamn terrorists.

I choose the civilized nation. From wikipedia,

Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development.[15]

[Man Down Under]

Unlike most countries in the Middle East, Israel is a liberal democracy[10][11] and a developed country.[12] In the region, Israel is the most progressive in terms of freedom of the press,[13] economic competition,[14] and human development.[15]

But only for jews, and no one else.

[jpsmith123]

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion speaking to the Haganah General Staff in May 1948. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.


" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.


"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.


"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with our selves. We decided to attack him"
Menachem Begin, a cabinet minister in June 1967, stated, while prime minister, addressing Israel's National Defence College, on Aug.8,1982, The N.Y.Times, Aug.21,1982.


"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.


"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15,
1998.


"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one
centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will
understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come
crawling to us on all fours."
Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the
Israeli Defence Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New
York Times 14 April 1983.


"It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empire."
Moshe Dayan (Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12 1952. Radio Israel.


"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.


"All this story about the danger of extermination [of Israel in June 1967] has been a complete invention and has been blown up a poseriori to justify the annexation of Arab territory."
Modechai Bentov (an Israeli cabinet minister at the time), Al Hamishmar, 14 April 1972, and quoted in Le Monde, 3 June 1972.


" He [Moshe Dayan] said he regretted not having stuck to his initial opposition to storming the Golan Heights. There really was no pressing reason to do so, because many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...... I know how at least 80% of the clashes were started. We would send a tractor to plow some area, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that is how it was".
Moshe Dayan, Israel's Minister of Defence at the time, The N.Y. Times. May 11, 1997.

And on and on and on ad nauseum...

[WWII]

I didn't have time to read all of the posts here albeit the first few, so I'll make this quick, I think you guys should hear it.

We had the opportunity to work with Isreali Spec Ops at my old job. They come over and cross trained, mostly in Urban Warfare and CQM (close quarters marksmenship). During one of the runs we did, one of my buddies asked one of the soldiers why they always cleared rooms using hand grenades instead of flashbangs like we do, and pointed out that there could be children inside. His answer was, and I quote

"They're all going to become terrorists anyway"

The Isrealis were very well trained and knew what they were doing, but a response like this kind of bothered me, and I'm pretty sure he was dead serious. It turned into a discussion, although a short one. I think both sides are so desensitized to death that no one really cares.

That makes sense because Palestinian families sometimes at the mosque, the whole family volunteers to be suicide bombers also lately, the age of the suicide bombers are getting more younger like 12 years old.

If a whole family has signed up to be suicide bombers then it would make sense to throw a hand grenade in the house and not a flashbang.

No sense in having Palestinian family members rush you one by one detonating their suicide vest.

Better to take them all out at once. I am sure the Israelis don't enjoy doing this but it is necessary for the IDF's own safety.

[WWII]

I have seen those quotes before and there is no actual proof they were said or printed.

[jpsmith123]

LOL! Then I guess the brutal ethnic cleansing/bloody subjugation the Jews are carrying out against the Palestinians must be just another one of those amazing coincidences involving Jews!

[Man Down Under]

I may be new here, but isn't it good nettiquette to not quote huge posts for the sake of a one line reply?

[WWII]

Show me where they are saying that on t.v. etc. I find it highly un-likely that the Israelis would talk this way also, the land is Biblically theirs, it belongs to Israel as God has said. The quran even says to give the land back to the jewish people.

[Kaydon]

Show me where they are saying that on t.v. etc. I find it highly un-likely that the Israelis would talk this way also, the land is Biblically theirs, it belongs to Israel as God has said. The quran even says to give the land back to the jewish people.

1) Israel was created by the United Nations and has depended on financial and military support from other real countries since its creation. It is time to withdraw all financial and military support and require payback on all past 'loans'. Let the Israelis sink or swim on their own.

2) Every Jewish gangster on the run from the law in his host country heads for Israel which has no extradition treaty with any country. Israel has become a center for extortion and organized crime around the world. It is a cancer that must be removed.

Hitler predicted that that was exactly what a Jewish state in Palestine would become:

For while the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state [i.e. a Jewish state in Palestine], the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.
-- Mein Kampf Vol.1 Ch.11

People who say it has a "right to exist" tend to also demand that it has a right to be supported by foreign aid, simply because those are the means required to fulfil Israel's "right" to exist.

The "promised land" argument is based on a book. The book in question is the Bible. The Bible is not a book based on rationality, reason, or science. It originated in a time of irrationality, superstition, and dogma.

Isn't that what all this Israel hubbub is about? Biblical homelands in the "holy" land and God's promises to his "chosen people"? Hogwash I say! Hogwash!

Israel has no right to exist. No nation that preemptively attacks other nations and routinely oppresses the land's indigenous people has a right to anything but prison and worldwide condemnation. Period, end of story.

If the Jewish people need a homeland, let it be in Madagascar, Outer Siberia, or perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter. We need to be quarantined from their presence.

http://www.white-nationalist.info/primer/

[hatal]

@WWII: Im utter sick of the "God said" arguement. Religous fanatic BS. I bet you still believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny too.

It seems, its no problem for you to believe. Either in "Gods" word or the "Israeli" statments, no matter how obvious the lie is, they are telling.
What proof would be satisfying to you? "God" bringing back Dayan and Ben-Gurion so they could tell you personally? Look up the proper dated newspapers in a library (microfilm, heard of it?) instead of labeling someone a liar. But you wont. You will keep up tossing aside facts.

And last but not least... Still can't find the edit button or what? Not to mention how you neatly quote a 2 page long post for a one line answer. Very witty.

[WWII]

Hatal, those quotes supposedly said by the Israeli leaders were also said on a very racist hate website called www.stormfront.org so why should I take their word ? :rolleyes:

[Big Mac]

Look, all we need to do is cut off funding to those asshole Israelis. They are just a leech on American tax money. Israel is a piece of shit and the Jews are a whiny bunch. They always use the Holocaust as a tool to get more money from limp-wristed, bleeding-heart liberal fags.

If we were to get rid of Israel, I can bet my left testicle that most of the Anti-American sentiment from the Arabs would drop considerably.

Also, the Buy-Bull (bible) argument came from the Jews. These guys talk about wiping out nations in their little fairy tale book. Most of it is probably bullshit because Jews can't fight any real battles. Any war they have won was because they received arms and heavy support from the UN. It's like an overweight mama's boy who beats up his scrawny little brother and thinks he's a bad ass. We need to put the Jews on a desert island in French Polynesia. You know, where the French usually test A-Bombs and such.

[Enkidu]

If we all converted to the 'true' Islam, I'm sure that there'd be a lot less anti-american sentiment from Muslims as well. :)

Ok, ok, I'm leaving now.

[Big Mac]

If we all converted to the 'true' Islam, I'm sure that there'd be a lot less anti-american sentiment from Muslims as well. :)

Ok, ok, I'm leaving now.

Just pointing out we didn't really start having problems with Arabs until the Jews got into their usual sissy bitch fest. Then every bleeding heart wanted us to carve up Palestine, which has had very few Jews (sounds like a great place to live!) until recently. And then we have a dramatic increase of terrorism every time we send Israel money and military hardware. It's pretty obvious why.

Ever notice that most Jews are like Woody Allen, scrawny sissies who you could snap into two by just glaring at them?

[hatal]

Ever notice that most Jews are like Woody Allen, scrawny sissies who you could snap into two by just glaring at them?

Oohh brother! That arguement leaves me speechless. So Israel is a nation inhabited by Woody Allen like life-forms? :eek::confused:

[cadaver]

If we were to get rid of Israel, I can bet my left testicle that most of the Anti-American sentiment from the Arabs would drop considerably.

One left testicle on the way out.

and:

Just pointing out we didn't really start having problems with Arabs until the Jews got into their usual sissy bitch fest. Then every bleeding heart wanted us to carve up Palestine, which has had very few Jews (sounds like a great place to live!) until recently. And then we have a dramatic increase of terrorism every time we send Israel money and military hardware. It's pretty obvious why.

This statement is extraordinarily lacking in evidence.

I suggest that if the US stopped messing around in Palestine the entire area would erupt into a war and could easily spread world wide. Once the Muslims have destroyed Israel, or even if it were dissolved by a UN thingybob, they would see this as a powerful omen from Allah himself and set about aggressively pushing for a worldwide Umah.

Never underestimate the mentality of people who think their fairy godfather just gave them a lottery win.

[jpsmith123]

Hatal, those quotes supposedly said by the Israeli leaders were also said on a very racist hate website called www.stormfront.org so why should I take their word ? :rolleyes:

Please point out some specific examples of the "racism" and the "hate" you find at that site.

[jpsmith123]

If we all converted to the 'true' Islam, I'm sure that there'd be a lot less anti-american sentiment from Muslims as well. :)

Ok, ok, I'm leaving now.

No, it's not the fact that we support the bloody Jewish colonial project that seeks to steal their land and subjugate them; no, it's not the fact that we subvert their governments and prop up the brutal puppet governments that oppress them; no, it's not the fact that we starve them with sanctions and attack them for no good reason; no it's not the fact that we build unwanted military bases on their soil; no, it's not the fact that we strive to exploit their resources and impose dollar-hegemony on them...no it's none of these things, rather, they hate us "because of religion"? ROTFLMAO! I wonder if you typed that with a straight face.

[Big Mac]

Oohh brother! That arguement leaves me speechless. So Israel is a nation inhabited by Woody Allen like life-forms? :eek::confused:

My mistake, I meant to put most Jews in America. Jews in Israel took a page from the Nazi's and tend to do overkill like there's no tomorrow.

[Big Mac]

One left testicle on the way out.

and:


This statement is extraordinarily lacking in evidence.

I suggest that if the US stopped messing around in Palestine the entire area would erupt into a war and could easily spread world wide. Once the Muslims have destroyed Israel, or even if it were dissolved by a UN thingybob, they would see this as a powerful omen from Allah himself and set about aggressively pushing for a worldwide Umah.

Never underestimate the mentality of people who think their fairy godfather just gave them a lottery win.

Jews have an even worse mentality. They are "God's Chosen People" and we are all "goyums" and "gentiles" to them. Jews are probably the most racist people to exist. Don't believe me? Try dating one of those....things. If you're dick isn't cut, then daddy dearest is going to sound a little something like this: "Oiy, dis boy is a goyum! There is no way you are marrying my daughter, OIY! It's not kosher! Hold on, I have to go rake in the money from all the lending I was doing because I don't know what hard work is. Oiy! Good thing I'm not breaking too much of a sweat carrying this gold around my neck."

Muslims are not as bad as the media paints them. Sure they have backwards thinking, but they are not any worse (and I think a helluva lot better) than the Jews. I'd take a Muslim ally over a Jew any day.

My left testicle is intact pal, because we all know that deep down it's Israel that is the root of this increase in terrorism. Remember the Munich Massacre? Their demands revolved around the release of Palestinians that were held in....dum dee dee dum...ISRAELI PRISONS.

Israel is the problem. The destruction/dissolution of it is the solution.

[jpsmith123]

Basically, it seems Jews are like termites.

They infest your house, for example, and unless you're very vigilant, you don't even realize they're slowly but surely destroying it, until it's too late.

Sure, other insects live in your house, too, but they have no coordinated effort to destroy it.

And it's not that they've necessarily "conspired" to destroy your house, it's simply in their nature. Once they arrive, they will do with your house what best suits them; hell with you.

And then one day when your house finally does collapse, well fuck you, they'll just move on to the next house.

Look what they did to Germany, for example. Before WW1, Germany was the most Jew friendly place in Europe. What happened? The Germans let the Jews in. The Jews subsequently saw a chance to wrest Palestine from the Ottoman Empire, so the country that took them in and let them prosper, they sold-out and back-stabbed and undermined; and they even pushed for U.S. involvement in WW1...then after the war they finished off Germany.

And now they're destroying the U.S., just like they've destroyed Germany in the past. Only this time, the consequences for the whole world will likely be far more catastrophic.

And then some vigilant people say, hey there are termites destroying the house, and the reply is, why, you bigoted, hate-filled, anti-semitic bastard you, not ALL termites in the world are destroying your house.

And then they say, where's your tinfoil hat, goofball? You mean to say we hapless holocaust victims have "conspired" to take over your government?

[Joxer]

@JP
I think that, in time, you will become immune to the tinfoil hat accusations. I did.

Back to topic.
I think that most know what the problem is. What is the solution?

I personally don't want another "final solution", since I will only defend myself from a person that directly threatens me or mine.

IMO, murder is not the answer. I just wish I knew what the answer was.

[cadaver]

Don't believe me? Try dating one of those....things. If you're dick isn't cut, then daddy dearest is going to sound a little something like this: "Oiy, dis boy is a goyum! ......
Try dating a Muslim girl and the answer is exactly the same, including the snippy snip.

Muslims are not as bad as the media paints them. Sure they have backwards thinking, but they are not any worse (and I think a helluva lot better) than the Jews. I'd take a Muslim ally over a Jew any day.


Strange.... Which Muslim controlled country would you prefer to live in? Since most people who are anti Jew claim that Jews are in control of the US behind the scenes (I have no real evidence either way so I will take it as read that they are for for this debate), that makes those of the anti Jew persuasion who prefer to live in the US over any Muslim nation left in an odd position, since by their own admission, they would prefer to live in a Jewish dominated state than an Islamic one (or any other for that matter).

And I suggest you don't read the western media, try the Arab media. Al Jazeera is quite eye opening with regard to Islamic mentality and even so, it is on the moderate side of Islamic media. Arabic media is far harsher and more hostile than the western version we hear. Rather than the way western media "paints them" I think you will find that they "paint" themselves far worse than the sugar coated version that the western media throws out in infotainment.

I find all people who base their lives on the rantings of fairytale sky bound pen pals to be wanting in many areas, however since they dominate the world by more than 90% it is left to decide an order of preference list.

On my personal list, the least bothersome are Bahai and Buddist and the most problematic are Muslims followed by fundamental Christians. Jews are somewhere in the middle.

As a side note, I have never met either a Jewish or a Muslim girl worth dating, so that question is mute ;)