full auto Saiga?

[phyrelord]

I was curious about the saiga shotguns. With them being similar to AKs can they be made full auto? Maybe cutting off the barrel at the end of the gas feed to eliminate about a foot of length. Can a pistol grip be mounted on to them. If so how is there a bolt that runs through the stock like the Remington shotguns or would the lower receiver have to be replaced. What i would like to do is make a 20 gauge, full-auto, easily concealable, room clearer, for squirrels of course. I was also wondering if anyone had an exploded diagram for the parts and if anyone knew whether or not i could buy larger mags or make them. Thanks

[BoB-]

I've always understood the grips to be interchangable;

<img src="http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga20k-sm.jpg" alt=" - " />

[Jumala]

I don´t know the saiga shotguns but I´ve seen a website about Franchi SPAS 12 and more modern guns.

SPAS 12 has this three modes - Pump, Semi-auto or Full auto

<a href="http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm" target="_blank">http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm</a>

I would also like to know how it works.

Here is a pic of a SPAS 15

<img src="http://spas12.com/spas/fuc_spas15b.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ February 21, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Jumala ]</small>

[zaibatsu]

I'm not sure, but I know that switching from full/semi-auto to pump disconnects the gas-cycling system. I'd imagine that the pump-mode is just like cycling a semi-auto rifle action by hand. About the Saigas, I'd imagine that anything that's semi-auto can be converted to full auto, especially if its based on the AK design.

Also, if you eliminate a foot or so after the gas tube you'd BETTER be opening up the gas-tube hole a lot, to ensure reliable cycling.

[phyrelord]

zaibatsu how would i go about opening that up. The AK i had it was almost impossible to get down in the gas port. would it be easier to shave some weight off of the bolt carrier assembly? Does anyone know if i can make a larger magazine. I would like to make a drum, would it be possible to change an ak drum over to 20 gauge? i want to get at least 10 rounds, any ideas are greatly appreciated.

[zaibatsu]

I'm not sure how to get to the gas port on the AK, aren't the barrels pressed in at the factory? Some home builders use hydraulic presses capable of 3-5 tons of pressure. Although I'm not that clear on how its done. However, on a FN FAL the barrel screws off, and to open up the gas port if you dramatically shorten the barrel I think you drill then ream it out to .125".

[MacCleod]

The semi-auto versions of this shotgun have the trigger assembly mounted at the very end of the reciever,whereas the pistol grip version's trigger is set forward several inches (to facilitate said pistol grip).You might be able to modify an existing pistol grip stock to fit it,though (like on the Benelli assault shotguns).
There are 10 round stick mags and 20 round drum mags for the US-AS 12 shotgun that could be modified to fit,but because they're pre-ban, thier cost is prohibitive-$100 plus for the sticks,and $600 to $800 for the drums.
Go to- <a href="http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/saiga-12.html" target="_blank">http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/saiga-12.html</a>
to see side-by-side pic's of both versions (the pistol grip variety is only available to law enforcement/military).

<small>[ March 01, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: MacCleod ]</small>

[phyrelord]

what is the best way to cut a barrel down i had planned on using a hacksaw and miter box then sanding the barrel down with a very fine sandpaper. Afterwards i was going to use the bluing kits to reblue the end of the barrel. Is this the best way to do it at home?

[zaibatsu]

The best way is to make the cut then use a lathe and lots of coolant to finish the end true. However, a mitre box and hacksaw to roughly cut it off, then finishing with an engineers square thing (Can't think of the name, looks like an L shape) and a file to straighten it up. If this is just a shotgun barrel then I don't think it'd be that important to finish the end exactly square, but with a rifle or airgun its very important. Work slowly with the file and it should go fine, and give yourself some room for error.

[Anthony]

Don't forget to recrown the barrel too. A power drill and counter-sink bit, or a dremel with appropriate tool should suffice.

[stickfigure]

The Saiga could be converted if you got the parts, they should be about same but, the Saiga's trigger group is farther back in the receiver, where the grip is. That would be a problem for the folding stock idea of Phyrelord's, the grip is in the wrong place and it would take a good gunsmith to move the trigger group forward. An alternative would be to leave the trigger in place and use the stock as a mold or template to have a custom folder made for it. The USAS mags are a good idea, or other 12-gauge mags. Also it could be possible to use your mags as a template to make your own out of sheet metal, sheet metal is amazingly easy to build stuff out of, mags are welded with a spot-welder that is easy to use.

[blacktalon]

The Saigas can be converted just like an AK-47. You just have to get an AK full auto trigger group with the auto sear, and drill the extra hole for the auto sear. You will have to custom manufacture an auto sear pin however, because the Saiga's receiver is slightly wider than a standard AK. Then you would have to weld a small trip on the bolt carrier to trip the auto sear. With a full auto hammer, you would then be ready to rock and roll. (A full auto shotgun is absurd however. They are not controllable enough to be particularly effective. I have shot a full auto SPAS. With 00 buck shot, it certainly did put out a wall of lead, but it was extremely hard to keep your finger on the trigger long enough to empty the 25 round drum. Stick with semi auto.)

[BlackTallon]

A couple of other things I forgot to mention...
Stick figure... Look at the pic Bob posted at the top. That is actually a folding stock. They are standard on the Non-BATF-ASSRAPED versions of the Saigas.
Also, You can buy 10 round mags for them. Don't bother trying to make yourself one. They are $35. Just about any supplier of Saigas should carry them. If that doesn't flip up your dress though, the SPAS I shot had a 25 round drum. I imagine with a little imagination you could convert them it fit in a Saiga even thought the mag catch is totally different. The 75round AK drum to 20 bore idea could have merit, but I tend to imagine it would just be a pain in the ass. Anyway, 75round drums are $80. I have seen SPAS drums for $100 in NFA circles. It's not worth destroying a good drum to try to save $20. Anyway, I don't think the feed lips would allow the shot shells to feed properly without some serious machine work.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: BlackTallon ]</small>