"Modern Metsubushi"

[Tyler_Durden]

I stumbled upon this as I was "surfing the net".

<a href="http://www.drearic.com/modernmetsubushi.html" target="_blank">"Modern Metsubushi Concepts"</a>

It's a long read, and it kinda beats around the bush a bit, but it's worth a skim if nothing more.

Here is a synopsis: imparing peoples vision can be a very effective tool, by conventional or unconventional means. Anything from a flashbang to throwing a penny at someone's face could be effective vision impairment, and would fall under the concept of "Metsubushi".

Anyway, I will get to the point...

He mentions the possibility of carrying a 35mm film canister in your pocket filled with salt/flour/pepper. It seems like it would be a very easy, simple, effective tool in self defense, not to mention E+E, etc. Simply reach in your pocket, pop the lid off with your thumb, toss it in their generally direction.

Unlike pepper spray, it would be difficult to miss, and even if they tried to block it or turn their head, they probably would still be affected greatly, and you would definitely have the advantage should you continue the confrontation by disabling the opponent with a knife, or simply punching/kicking/etc.

This idea of his seems good, so I naturally am trying to think of ways to improve it further.

It seems like ground up chili peppers, maybe even mixed with flour for both the irritant and vision impairment effects. I don't know how effective that would be, the irritant part may have no effect in such a form.

Now is where the "explosives" part comes in...

What if you make an egg sized container with a hole at the top to insert a small firecracker (or maybe one of the psuedo-m80's on the market nowadays), then filled with flour or some other powder, and sealed the top around the fuse with glue. Do you think this would be effective?

The whole thing would need to spread as much as possible, as evenly as possible, so I don't know if paper would allow this very well. I haven't thought the logistics of it out much, but I am thinking along the lines of "smoke bomb--- but not really".

Smoke takes a little bit of time, even if it's only a few seconds, to take full effect.

Anyway, what do you all think? I will experiment a little later... right now I am just brainstorming.

Are these completely stupid ideas or do you think they have any merit at all?

<small>[ June 20, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

If you really want to put someone on their ass then why don't you have a glass container containing something NASTY like HNO3? I remember something about a mix of H2SO4 and H2O2 I think. There is a thread on it somewhere and apparently it's good for decomposing organic materials.

[BoB-]

Simply throwing the powder in someones face would require a bit of practice, a better method would be to load the area in a party popper that normally holds confetti with the powder, this also adds noise to the equation, further startling the victim.

Salt, flour, and talcum powder are boring and dont really do much, not a single degree is needed to cause harm to a persons eyes/face, just reading a few labels at the grocery store should give you loads of ideas. Crystal drano, powdered bleach, HTH, other crystal pool chlorinators, habenaro peppers, cayanne peppers, whole nutmegs.

An old trick is to fill eggshells with the desired chemical agent, since they break no matter what they hit.

[nbk2000]

You're thinking of "Pirahna" fluid. Look it up in the search engine. Dissolves flesh on contact. Also sets it on fire! :)

But this kinda defeats the purpose of a temporary diversion and is more of a permanent blinding.

[Bitter]

Can't beat concentrated ammonia. Impairs breathing as well.

[Harry]

Young women in Mexico are taught the trick of "chile pepper in the purse" for self-defense--pepperspray being unavailable to them. BTW, the word is spelled "chile", not "chili" and pronounced "chee-lay". With all the crap they have to put up with, they need every help they can get. I'm sending some of these ideas down south pronto.
Thank you, my friends.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Quick Tip:
Aerosol cans of 'Oven Cleaner' are brilliant.
They have a 30% or so solution of NaOH, a long range spray, and foam on contact.

The NaOH obviously would be... rather unpleasant... and the foaming action slightly reduces the chances of it blowing back into ur face.

Wearing wrap-around sunglasses when ur using something like this is a good idea, and if the assailant is wearing glasses - dont worry. THis shit burns the mouth etc.. and leaves permanent damage.

BTW: If the spray is a mist, then enlarge the hole with either a pin or small PCB drill bit.

These cans are like $5AU and are WAY more effective than any piss-ant OC spray.

Keep that in mind...
rob

[Arkangel]

Smoking elephant shit guys......

Far cheaper than that expensive oven cleaner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_2063000/2063445.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_2063000/2063445.stm</a>

[PYRO500]

I like the idea of ash myself, cheap light, super small particles, and irritating as hell.

[pyromaniac_guy]

you better watch it if you are going to rely on something that is caustic and or poisonous to incapacitate someone... I wish I kept the link to the law where I first noticed this (almost positive i saw it on the batf website). but if you do use such a material against someone and jhonnie law catches you, you most likely will get poped for the use of a chemical weapon... the feds dont distinguish between vx and NaOH... If you are going to carry a weapon, you should do so with the intent to use it if need be. Furthermore ytou should take into consideration the reprocussion of getting poped with it from the cops... I doubt there would be that much trouble if a cop simply found it on your person (unless they were smart and realized why you had it), but again, if and when you ahve to use it, you might as well just have a gun and kill the SOB thats fucking with you. At least you have a chance of being on the good saide of the law that way.... provided you live in the US at least.... even better if you live in texas... someone steals from you there, you hunt um down and shoot um int he back, you have a half way decent chance of getting away with it!

[MrSamosa]

If you need something irritating, why not use CS Tear Gas? It's sold as a pepper spray, if you do not know already. I have a cylindar of it under the name "Military Tear Gas". There is a dye mixed in as well for the purpose of Police identification of a suspect, but it is mostly CS. Simply spray it into the desired container and put a small explosive (maybe a blasting cap) into it with a fuse leading out the top. Of course, you would have to seal the fuse-hole somehow so the CS does not evaporate out of said container. This would be very easy because on detonation, it immediately aerosolizes the CS.

Now that I think about it, this probably would not be a good self-defense weapon. I doubt film canisters would be able to hold enough CS to truly be effective and large containers could become bulky and difficult to carry. Also, having to light a fuse, wait, and throw at the attacker takes far too much time to be effective. Maybe as an offensive weapon though... :rolleyes:

[Tyler_Durden]

Mr sam... way to miss the point of the thread completely!

First, this section is "Improvised Weapons". There is nothing "improvised" about buying CS Spray at your local military surplus shop.

Explosives defies the point of a simple, quick, easy, safe, distraction in order to give you a chance to run away or disable the opponent.

"aerosolizes the cs" .... :rolleyes:

pyro guy: what are they going to charge you with if they find a 35mm film canister full of salt/flour/ash/chile pepper? They might hassle you a bit, thinking it's drugs, but nothing serious? Surely you can think of a satisfactory excuse for all of these substances. "I was taking it to my friend to flavor the chicken he was cooking (chile pepper", or "my friend ran out of salt/flour and wanted some". I can't think of one off hand for ash, but I'm sure you could think of an excuse for carrying some in your pocket if you tried.

Of course, my whole "m80 surrounded by flour" thing wouldn't workt like this, but it's not something you would carry around in your pocket every day ( I assume ? ).

[pyromaniac_guy]

tyler,
I was mainly tlaking about the people how suggested NaOH, nitric, and the like....
In all honesty, the oven cleaner might be the best bet... it's a common household product, and you can come up with some excuse for having it on your person... you could also say 'hey i was in fear for my life and defending myself' when the cops ask you why you hosed some bastard down... However if you carry a jug of nitric around with you, your intent to cause bodily harm via the use of a caustic is quite obvious... you might still be defending yourself, but it could potentially get you into hot water...

[MrSamosa]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Now is where the "explosives" part comes in...

What if you make an egg sized container with a hole at the top to insert a small firecracker (or maybe one of the psuedo-m80's on the market nowadays), then filled with flour or some other powder, and sealed the top around the fuse with glue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Don't bitch at me for something YOU brought up :mad: .

There are some really vicious hot-sauces that can do a number on your skin and mucous linings... That's "improvised" enough and thinking up an excuse for carrying hot-sauce is pretty easy. If you want to use an explosive still, you could even put it into a small container of Hot Sauce.

There's a pepper called "Bird Peppers". The name may vary from place to place. They are like chile peppers, only smaller and much hotter. You could cut those open and use the seeds in those.. Having some moisture in them, they would probably stick to the attacker's face.

Of course, there is still Cayenne pepper. It takes out the eyes and the sense of smell.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

"But six local activists will be soon trained to shoot smoking dung pellets at the elephants, with weapons developed in neighbouring Zimbabwe. "

BWAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Hmm... I want that job :D
I think shooting flaming elephant shit from a spudgun would be QUITE the entertaining job. No, seriously :rolleyes:

[MrSamosa]

Haha, the idea of smoking elephant dung is quite funny, but interesting at the same time. Elephant dung, from what I know, consists mainly of grass, right? There are plenty of other animals with dung like that; cows come to mind. Why not go to a local farm and steal some cow shit (if you're caught, they probably won't know what to think). If we know what's so special about elephant dung, then we can figure out what other animals have similar dung and are easier to find.

[Machiavelli]

Dried elephant/cow/other grass eating animal-dung burns rather slow, it smolders, creating sufficient heat to vaporize the OC in the chilli peppers. So you get OC vapors and OC absorbed on fine ash particles, kinda like dusty agents.
To reproduce that, you'll need a slow burning mixture that doesn't get too hot and mix it with some chilli powder.

[MrSamosa]

A slow-b urning/not-too-hot mixture... Whatabout mixing the chile powder in with the wax in candles? So when you light the candle, it slowly melts and releases the vaporized OC? Candles don't look very threatening either. Somehow I get the feeling this won't work as I'm expecting it to. It's an idea to work off of though, right?

[auzquad]

learn to spell

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

[Tyler_Durden]

auzquad, let me introduce you to my friend, the period:

.

[Anthony]

Seriously, take a look at the quality of English used by some of our members from non-English speaking countries.

Rather than playing with shit, which I'm sure is a lot of fun... wouldn't it a lot simpler to just use salt/flower?

The vortex idea most probably won't work, if it does, the distance covered will be minimal. If the film can is full of dried shit/salt/flower/whatever, where's the air needed to propell it?

Also, you're going to need a lid on the other end to stop the contents falling out in transit and you're going to need to remove the lid by hand before you can use it, so you might as well just pull the lid off and then throw the contents.

[angelo]

do people not understand? Getting anything in ones eyes is irritating.

And auzquad, I suggest you go back and edit that post.

[Tyler_Durden]

Angelo... have you ever had water splashed on your face? It probably didn't bother you too much.

What about CS spray? Ever had that in, around, or on your eyes and face?

It's a hell of a lot more painful and irritating, regardless of HOW MUCH and IF it gets in your eyes.

Anything is at least a little bit irritating in your eyes, but some things are more so than others, and some things require less to actually get INTO the eyes for the desired effect.

Also, it just occured to me....

What's wrong with using chili pepper as you would flour or salt in the film canister? You can buy chili pepper like any other spice, and its finely ground, and at roughly $2 per container full(1" diameter 3" tall container, roughly), very economical.

Though it would be less of a visual hinderance than flour, it would be more irritaing (I would imagine) than both.

Not to mention the ke\/\/l trick of using chili pepper mixed with water, shot from a water pistol or spray bottle. Of course, if you are going this route you might as well use tobasco sauce or something like that that's already in a liquid form.

[Harry]

On chile peppers and heat:
The seeds are where the OC is found in high concentrations. Carefully (extra stress on carefully) grind seeds taken from dried pods (several groceries here in Murderapolis carry dried pods, as well as every "Tienda Mexico"), "cola de rata" (rat's tail) are potent, habanero are extreme. Add heat to the seeds to release some serious fumes. My woman fries chile pods, and the fumes get into EVERYTHING--my computer smells spicy inside! Alcohol will extract the OC oil from the seeds, if you want concentrate. Or mix the ground seeds into candle wax, you'll want a high ratio of seeds to wax to get good effect.

Harry
P.S.The proper spelling is "chile", not "chili". Pronounced "chee-lay".

[W_S]

Well, even just soaking the pod (torn up) and the seeds of a habanero in a little bit of water pulls alot of capsacium makeing the water tinted reddish/orange. I poured this over over a 50/50 mix of flour and plaster of paris and am letting it dry now. In theorey, when the water evaporates, it leaves the capsacium in the flour/plaster mix. I know wet flour dosn't like to be ground up too much so thats what the plaster is for. When it dries, i wil test it and post results.

[edit] typo

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: W_S ]</small>