Self Defence

[Jhonbus]

Not really sure this is the right section for this, but I've seen a lot of threads pertaining to the sorts of weapons which would be used to fend off an attacker, so here is where I shall post it.
I just wanted to say that no matter how many weapons you have with you as you walk the streets, and no matter how good they are, you always have to be ready to use them. I had an experience tonight which showed me that I am not nearly as prepared as I had thought.
I was walking to the shop to get some munchies, when I happened across a group of youths (around the 15 year mark). Usually I don't come across such things as I normally go out a lot later when the kiddie-gangstas have all gone to beddybyes. Now meeting this group in itself is nothing unusual, and I usually find that passing such groups of kids is hazard-free, as long as you radiate an air of self-confidence.
Today though, one kid approached me, asking me the time. Obviously he was about to attempt to rob me. He stood in front of me, and asked me to give him my cellphone, which I did not do, I said I didn't have it with me. He then moved round to my side and asked for my wallet. I thought he may have a knife, so I began to comply, running through ideas of what to do in my head. When my hand was at my back pocket, I realised that he was in the perfect position for me to swing round my elbow at great speed and hit him in the head with it. Then I would grab his arm and attempt to dislocate it, then break his nose as punishment. However... There was the matter of his group of friends (about 10 or so). I did not know how far behind me they were, and I knew if I was not fast enough I would have no chance to take them all on. This was the fact that made my mind falter, and by the time I had come close to making a decision it was too late and I was out of the ideal position. His hand was in his pocket (possibly reaching for a knife), and since I no longer had the advantage, I had to give him my wallet. Luckily I only had £5 in it at the time, but as you can probably imagine, that fact does nothing to subdue my seething rage.

The problem I had was not the one of being able to overpower the attacker, but of making a decision in a stressful situation with a very limited time frame. I'd like to hear anyone's opinions and any ideas they might have about how to overcome just such problems. Martial arts training is of course the best option in *all* aspects of self-defence, but I'd like to limit the discussion to just the probles I have mentioned.

[Mick]

interesting predicament.

i find when placed in a situation like that i often panic and freeze up, its only till about 5 seconds latter do i say to myself "woah, slow up..breathe, slow the adrenaline up, now act"

when i'm placed in a situation like that, where i have 1 guy trying to jump me and 10 of his mates are waiting for him a little way away, i will often just say to him this isn't gunna happen today, and just walk away(the opposite direction to his mates) if he keeps following, saying "come on, give us your phone" then i keep walking a little bit faster, and try and go around a corner.
the idea behind that is, chances are he's to chicken shit to start anything and will mostly like give up.

if he isn't chicken shit and does try to start something, then i have walked sufficently far enough away from his mates that i can smack him fair and square on the end of the jaw(hurts your hand, but fuck its hurts him more, and if it doesn't pop his jaw out, he'll be pretty stunned for a while) and then run like the wind before his mates see - if i'm around a corner, then i still run.
the point of going round the corner is not so i can kick the absolute shit out of this guy, its so i have more time before his mates see, theres no point being a hero and "teaching that guy a lesson" because A) he can go to the cops and say you assaulted him - he's going to have 10 witnesses, you'll have none.
B) you won't win against 10 guys, so there no point temping fate. the moment you get the chance to run you take it.

another option, if you have a knife(which i very rarely carry, and i have only used once) you can always pull it on him.
i don't mean just pull it out and say "oh gee, i'll stab you cunt" - that silly, there still 3-4ft gap between you and him, which gives him plenty of time to turn and run, shouting to his mates.

you pull it and wham! put the edge(even if its the back edge) straight to his chest, neck or face. getting in as close as possible so your bodies are touching(go press up against a wall or door, then try and hit the door with any sort of reasonable force...good luck =)
and say "you wouldn't want me to fuck this pretty face up would you? then back off cunt."
if he's gunna back off, you just back away till you get out of site, then run as fast as you fucking can.
if he doesn't want to back off, then your pretty fucked because no doubt his mates will have seen, so the only option you have is cutting him up.

its easier just to avoid situations like this in the first place.

[angelo]

It seems I was not the only one that was unlucky the other night.

I was the city and was with my friend when I was confronted by a young asian, I guessed he was around 14-16 years of age. Now I usually do not worry about it and either keep walking and forget about it. But my friend is from out bush, and he has never been in this kind of situation. We were asked for our wallets and phones. My friend started to hand his over when I told him to stop. The young mugger seemed abit shocked at this. I told him to forget about it and walk away or he would feel it tomorrow.

He did not walk away, so I made sure he felt it. I broke his nose and reversed the knife he was holding. I cut him on his arm, a small flesh wound but alot of blood poured out. Now I was preparing myself for the run and had a few locations in my mind of where I could run and hide for a couple of hours. But when I turned there was a group of 3 young asians. I did not think that they would have had anything to do with the person I had just hurt. So as I was walking past them my friend was walking on the inside. He was stabbed in the arm. I was fucking angry at myself for not thinking they were working with the other slant-eyed cunt. I fought them. All of them. I was in a fit of rage, I was supposed to take care of my mate, but I didn't do it. I hurt them, and I hurt them bad. There was a lot of blood on my hands and if it was not for my mate, holding his wound shouting at me I would have beat them to a bloody pulp. He dragged me away and we retreated to a public toilet were we cleaned up and took the train home. I stiched my friend up. He is going to be fine. I got cut on my chest and got my brother to give some stiches. Thank god for my ribcage.

After this incident I have seriously thought through what I would do in this situation if it would ever arise again.

there are a few things I would do.

When asked for my wallet I would yell at the top of my voice "FUCK OFF!" Thus attracting attention. If this did not work I would have a good look around me to make sure who I was up against. Then counting the odds, I would either run, or fight.

Now I read a post "modern metsubishi" I liked the idea and now carry a small canister of salt mixed with pepper mixed with baking soda. I have yet to use this on a person but have used it on cats in my area. They whine and go into spasms. So I am guessing it would hurt like all hell. This would be what I would use if out numbered, kick as many of them in the balls, then use this powder on the rest of them. And run like a somalian with a food voucher. I would then retreat into a toilet and wash the solution off my hands.

This is what I say I would do, but murphy's law says its gonna go to rat shit.

[Microtek]

I know you didn't want martial arts, but this isn't about technique so I think it is relevant.
Several martial arts recognize the problem of indecisiveness in that crucial moment where you must either comply or refuse to do so. Most of them solve this by repeating the training of the defence so many times that it becomes a reflexive action.
But this can cause some problems as you then run the risk of hurting someone who had a legitimate reason to approach you.
Other organisations, such as many armed forces use what they call "actions on". The idea is simply to remain aware of all possible threats in your present situation and deciding ahead of time what to do about them if they should arise. For instance, if you are walking along the street and someone is walking behind you, you would consider what to do if he were to pull a knife and demand your money. Maybe you decided that you could use the shopping bag in your hand to make a wild swing behind you and run - so you shift your grip on the bag to make it optimal for swinging.
The disadvantage of this approach is of course that you can seem quite paranoid to your surroundings.

[nbk2000]

You have one gook in your hands, and see three others nearby and assume they're not his buds? :rolleyes:

You've got a knife and one of their (supposed) friends. Grab the punk by the collar from behind and stick the point of the knife between his legs. Force him up on tippy toes with the point and make it abundantly clear that he'll have sit to piss if he tries anything foolish because he's not going to be a man any longer if he does..

Keep him between you and his "buddies" as a shield. Keep your back to the wall (or fence, building, etc) with your partner watching your rear till you're somewhere where you can ditch them.

If they rush you (they never liked the guy anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), keep him between you and the nearest guy to block their weapons while you defend. See a chance, push him (after you've nuetered him :D This removes one guy from the pursuit, maybe two) into them and run like the devil is on your heels.

When dealing with a crowd, you can't win without a gun or fear. Not your fear, but their fear. If you can't hope to outrun them, take out the guy standing in front of you. Don't hit him, devour him. Rip his face apart with your teeth. Claw his throat out. Go Hannibal Lecter on him. When the buddies come, charge THEM! They'll be seeing a fearless madman with the blood of their friend pouring from his mouth attacking THEM. And they will run.

Once they turn, you turn too and run like crazy in the opposite direction.

Scream "FIRE!" at the top of your lungs. Fire gets people involved. Bust a shop window to set off an alarm. Pull a fire box alarm. Get into a narrow place where they'd have to attack you one at a time like a stairwell or building alleyway.

Be offensive, not defensive. The attacker always has the initiative. Attack while they're talking. It'll take a moment for their brain to change gears from thinking of what they're saying to defending against an unexpected attack.

As for distance, it's been shown time and again that a standing man with a knife within seven yards can stab a cop before he can draw and fire his weapon. That's why cops always stand far away from someone if possibe, to have sufficient reaction time. Try it with a buddy to see what I'm saying.

Obviously you weren't armed at the time. For shame. You're a mod of a weapons forum and you're caught unarmed by gook punks. Tsk, tsk.

You guys need to learn H2H skills and practice with a friend. And start carrying something...anything! A stick, a handful of 1" ball bearings, a pocket dragon, or something. RTPB: "Have a weapon on you at all time".

If you set the first punks hair on fire with a blast from a PD, as he's running around screaming with a flaming head, you're not going to be hassled by the rest of them as you walk away. Always walk (if possible) because it shows you're in control and not afraid. Running only invites pursuit. Only run if you're hopelessly outnumbered or fleeing imminent police capture.

[Mick]

you can not carry any form of weapon on your persons in australia.

police are allowed to search you and your imediate property(bag, car) for weapons or drugs should they see fit at the time.

ie. your waking down the street, cops walk up to you and say "we need to search you" you have 2 choices, be arrested and be processed at the station - in which case your going to be searched before you go in your cell. or you let them feel you up on the street.

if your caught carry anything be it a tooth brush, fork, a stick, a glass bottle(full or otherwise) etc etc it will be confiscated, and you may very well get a fine of about $250.

if you conseal something(down your pants, socks, under your hat, in your shoe) then you will get a fine, and you could even get to spend the night in jail.

you can't carry shit in australia.

angelo, you gotta watch the rock apes.
there fucked now, most of those slope head fuckers around city carry guns, and if they guy that tries to jump you doesn't have a gun then you can absolutly garantee that atleast one of apes in his gang is carrying.
i remember when the rock apes would try to jump you with knives and stuff atleast then you had some sort of a fighting chance...now they just walk up to you and say "gimme your stuff" and if you don't hand it over they pull out a gun and just shoot you. no questions asked.

as NBK said, go hannibal lector on there ass.
when one of those rock apes try to jump you, get them by the neck and rip his nose of with your teeth, then rip his jaw off with your other hand.
i'm not much for slope food, but i would much rather eat slope nose, then slope lead.

[endotherm]

I live in the abosolute epicenter of suburban America, i don't have to be worried about getting jacked in my neighborhood. Although i do pray for the day when i'm walking home, and some "kiddie wannabe gansta", tries to jump me, that will be quite the display of firepower :) .
Although a short distance away from my house are some of the roughest areas in the country. When I go to these places I always make sure I'm with one of my "gorilla friends". So if a serious altercation insued, i'd have some time to think i about what to do while my "gorilla friend" instinctively battled to the death. Having some tough friends is pretty important. One time I was at a local mall, (hangout spot for wannabe ganstas and other primitive walks of life, when one of my gorilla friends who happens to be and expert in Jiu Jitsu gets his hat stolen away from him, by the older brother of some kids we were messing wiht earlier. A crowd of this older brothers friends gathered, and we were outnumbered and they were definitely bigger and older than us. My ju-jitsu friend calmly says, give me my hat back, and the guy says No, and laughs. Then my friend reaches for the hat, and the guy pulls back, and laughs. Then there it is, BOOOSH 2 palm-heel strikes to the bridge of the nose, grappling insues, and my friends then lands a knee to this guys collar bone, dropping him to the ground in a big bloody mess in a matter of 3 seconds. Noone else in there wanted to fuck with this kid so they all backed off.
You can't always rely on other people so your only other choice is to arm yourself, which can prove to be practical and fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . I have an idea for a non-lethal weapon that can be easily constructed. All you need is one of those part-popper novelty fireworks, insulate it very well with several layers of duct tape,and take out all of the stramers, add a few grams of black powder and double it's weight in iron fillings, magnesium fillings, and some irritants that won't be destroyed like some sodium hydroxide. The string is pulled and the device is pointed as close to the victims face as possible. When the cap goes off, it will ignite the blackpowder which will propel and ignite the materials in the party popper. The iron/magnesium fillings will cause sever burns and a blinding flash, which will look very scary to any of this persons "crew", and the sodium hydroxide will cause some severe irritation that will leave the victim blinded, and possibley fucked up for life. This device is half actual application and half intimitadion. If one of my friends got blasted with some strange enormous fire ball and i didn't know what it was i'd sure as hell run the fuck away.

[Tyler_Durden]

Great post NBK. Saved me a lot of time. And you are exactly right.

The key to fighting multiple attackers.... is that you dont.

Even without a weapon in play, you always fight one at a time, keep him between you and everyone else. This is, of course, a last resort.

Here is what I would have done in your situation, Jhonbus...

Pulled my knife (that I had at the ready once I saw I may have trouble), and with one hand I would have reached for my wallet, and the other had the knife as concealed as possible. As you hand him your wallet, and he reached for it, pull it away and stab him in the throat or face, or in the rib cage. Attacker #1 is taken care of. Of course this is an ideal situation, and that is how it would play out in my head. I would probably have to do something less interesting, like simple sticking him once anywhere and running.

Quick knife fighting tip: If stabbing into the rib cage area, keep the knife blade horizonal so that it penetrates through the ribs and doesnt get jammed before striking vital areas. After knife is inserted, TWIST 90 degrees, then remove, repeat if necessary. This will create immense bleeding, and will make a gaping wound instead of one that seals itself up somewhat.

Anyway, after he is taken care of, I simple turn the other direction (as far from his "posse" as possible), and run. Surely you can out run a half dozen street punks, right? You do run regularly, don't you? If not, do so.

Now, of course you didn't have a knife. Simple kick him in the sack, kick him in the chest to knock him off balance, punch him in the throat, or eye gouge him. Anything long range and at least temporarily distracting. This will give you at least a few second advantage when running away, which should be sufficient. This is, of course, if he can/will chase you at all.

Muggers like this want easy targets, generally speaking. Why run after someone like that if they could just as easily wait ten minutes for some scared old lady that will give them no trouble?

[Jack Ruby]

endotherm,

That doesn't sound much like any of the Ju-Jutsu techniques I have seen. He definitely handle that right.

There are many threads on MA already so I will be brief. If you don't train to fight you will do it poorly. some is instinctive but not all. As for the books on Self-defence sold in books store like chapters; they simply are crap.

When ever I enter a room I always look around to see what can be used as a weapon what the potenial situations will be and and solutions. Always pay attention to what is around you.

If someone is "Eye-ball Fucking" you; look over at him establish eye contact and nod. This basically means I see you, I saw you watching me, and I acknowledge you.

In the movie "Spy Game" Robert Redford said,
"When was the Ark Built?
Before the Rain before the Rain"

Keep those words in mind...

[PYRO500]

Some things that you may want to think about:

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, generally if you are robbed at gun point you should really consider wether resistance that could get you killed is worth the posessions on you.

Don't pull a weapon unless you are going to use it, often when people pull a weapon they are relying on it's fear factor to scare their oponnent into running away, a real street thug won't likely be fooled by this and is likely to cap your ass or stick you like a pig.

Do make the first avalable move, a counter response can make you the agressor witch induces fear and surprise in your enemey

Don't stick around unless you have to, if you can run you should there is nothing dishonorable about running away from a situation that you will likely loose

also you should know that if you are caught after going hanibal lecter you are best suited to get your ass outta there fast as the cops will arrest all of you and any judge or jury looking at your wounds you made with your teeth are going to think of you as an animal that needs to be caged as wellas any chance you have with the baling oficer.

[angelo]

NBK, it seems like I might have not known what I was talking about but in the heat of battle, with my adrenalin pumping and my mind thinking ahead I missed the three other gooks. It was unprofessional. I know. And now I have the scar to prove it.

It is always easier to look back and say to myself that I should have done this and I should have done that. But when it comes down to the crunch it all goes to ratshit. Adrenalin can be a man's best friend or their worst enemy. I know now that I should have kept the knife in my hands and ditched it somewhere far and I know now that I sould have been walking on the inside.

Mick answered your question. Down here any sort of weapon can get you prosecuted. A friend of mine had a bullet on his key chain. he sharpened it so he could stab someone with it. He got a $250 fine and a night in jail because of it. I am not going to start bitching about the laws down here, but basically your fucked when you step out of your house in the morning. Your not safe even when you are at home.

[nbk2000]

I'd say don't carry a concealed weapon because you'd risk losing your right to own a gun later on...but you already have! :p Tough luck being an ozzie, eh?

Be that as it may, you can still have some defensive capabillities that I don't think any cop could fuck with you about. A bottle of cheap, watery, hot sauce in the squeezable plastic bottle it comes in is a form of pepper spray.

What about an air-horn? Any sudden noise over 70 dB is interpretted by the body as a threat. The louder and more sudden the noise, the greater the threat, and thus the greater the flinch response. Blast someone point-blank in the face with a 120 dB air-horn and they can't do anything but cower. Then RUN! :D

You do have a note from your doctor saying that you need a cane for supporting a knee injured in a skating accident, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Perhaps wear a knee brace to add credence to the story.

Also, use a decoy to draw the punks away while you run away. Get some play money (or paper) that looks approximately like real money and mix it in with a some real bills of little worth. Buy a cheap toy cellphone too. These are your "chaff and flare" to draw away the punks "missle".

Wrap the bills wrapped loose around the toy phone and keep it in an easily reached pocket. When accosted, you dispense your "counter-measures package" past the punk, away from your route of escape then run. The phone is a weight that carries the bills a distance, scattering them about. He either chases after you or turns around to pick up the "goods". SInce he jacked you to get the goods, his priority will be to get them before some other scumball does.

The look on his face when he realizes he's been had would be priceless to see, but you're already long gone by then. :p If the "cell-phone" happened to explode when the punk picked it up, blowing his hands to red mist, then that'd be double bonus points for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[PYRO500]

I remember a trip to washington dc, the guide book aid you should carry a dummy wallet for that purpose. although DC is like a sugar coated NY no one mugs you in the street in that town(well very few) there is too much security along with cameras everywher on subways, instead they way at the front of apartment buildings if you dupe them they can still come after you. a 250$ fine and a night in jail is nothing compared to a week in the hospital and $5000 in medical bills. I took my chrome knuckles to school with me every day the last week knowing damn well what would happen if I was caught, I took em anyways beacuse I'd like to stand a chance if I was jumped by dirty mexicans or coons. In fact I used to keep a screwdriver in my pocket when I would walk through the neighborhood near my house, I have learned though to not go through that neighborhood due to the 3 or 4 unsolved murders. You'd be surprised what a good screwdriver can do when it's properly forced into someone and I have an excuse for having it, it's beacuse I'm a liscenced electronic technition and a part time computer tech, in fact I also like to tak thins apart, perticularly things that don't belong to me like thermostats, desks, and rual phone boxes.

[J]

This is just a theory, but I doubt the police bother searching people dressed as businessmen. If I ever get a job where I have to wear a suit (fairly likely), I might well start carrying a gun, or a large hunting knife. I've never been searched in my life anyway, and I'm usually dressed in a T-shirt and baggy jeans.

My philosophy on self defense is to be aware of my surroundings. If I see a group of pikeys (scumbags from the council estate) anywhere in my path, I'm instantly on my guard. I try to project self-confidence, and I look straight ahead but not in their eyes.

I've never been attacked yet. If it came to a fight, I'd go for the throat, head, neck, and other dangerous areas. The way I see it, if someone attacks me unprovoked, they deserve everything they get.

I lift weights, and I'd like to take up Jiu-Jitsu if I can get laser treatment on my eyes. I wouldn't say I'm especially big (yet!), but I'm bigger and stronger than most of the pikeys I see.

[pyromaniac_guy]

If you have never been searched, I presume you have never been arrested... Why not just get a permit to carry a concealed weapon???? I know I know you might not want to give the feds your fingerprints... but hey.. if your that worried about it, there aint nuthin that can make ya feal a whole lot safer than a .45 tucked into your pants and a few extra clips in your back pocket.

[J]

I live in the UK. It's illegal to even own a single shot .22 pistol, let alone carry a .45 :( In the news today, there's a story of a vicar who kept a .22 derringer in his house for self defense. He got 4 months in jail! That is how fucked this country is.

[leonvios]

i have never been succesfully mugged all who have tried have failed
the first was in town when me and my friends were walking around when we notised two BLACK kids were following we had 4 people in our group
we then got them to follow us down an alley which just incase we knew that it had more than one route of escape anyway they came up to us
and proceded to ask for money the smell of his breath could damn near rob a bank so i walked away from the group this made the larger of the two follow even so i dwarfed him in size this aallowed the oythers to gang up on the smaller which they did not only one took a few swings which unfortunately missed i had not noticed this at first but i stalled the older from rushing in by sticking my arms in the way he ran around me but i cut him off again before he reached my friend i was looking for him to starta fight but they cowered away in the end even offered us some crappy drugs we refused and simpley said
piss off you black twats.

the second time we were not outnumbered but we had my cousin with me we did not want to fight but he was being a cocky little shit and he made them start one beat up my friend while the other was waiting for an oppertunity to hit my cousin so i could do nothing to help while my other friend is just a natural born... pussie so he just did nothing we got away in the end but my friend was near enough dead they chased us away i let the one who was going to hit my cousin catch me and he tripped me up and jumped on my back and proceded in hitting me in the back of the head this did nothing and just as i threw him off my pussie of a friend said i was a pussie to get him to go away this was extremely annoying i was about to hit him instead but thought better of it.

anywas the third was kind of a nearlly hero's thing when we walked past some pikies they followed us we knew instantly and i just happened to have my crossbow in my bag which stuck out they yanked at it loosening a nail making it inoperable so this was out of the game but my little brave freind again did something about this he pulled a plastic bb gun out on the biggest of them who instantly thought gun he hit the deck and hid his head until looking up and seeing its real form a crap bb gun they broke this a little but it still worked they had there way with it they followed us some more when they started to beat up on my other cousin who was only 9 at the time so i got into a fight with the biggest who pushed me into a nettle bush and a was backed up by a fence he then pummeled into me hitting me about 15-20 time alot into my head none hurt there was no pain and after this my friends and i walked away casually like nothing happened. after words you think well if he had done more so would i but i wouldent fight them on my own but really every one should just go all out if the odds are not all that bad but you never know what could be in there pokets this is why i will soon be weilding a sword around areas in which i am unsure about also being ready to run from the pigs. but not from the stupid pikies... and mexicans... and black people.

[mr.evil]

i guess having pepper spray, or a flashbang(or something else) would be good...

Does anyone has suggestions for Self defence weapons? Maybe a film cannister with an Flashpowder burstcharge, and filled with Pepper...

[MrSamosa]

When you're in a confrontation, you want to immediately give yourself the advantage in any way possible. NBK mentioned an air-horn to startle him. You don't even need that- just scream as loudly as you can. This will throw the attacker off guard long enough for you to rush him and bring him to the ground. Then you can do what you please &gt;=). Do whatever works. If he's gonna fuck you up, fuck him up first. The testicles are very sensitive, don't be afraid to hit them. If you have a knife, stab his balls...that'll put him down for a while. If his buddies try to rush you, give them all a stab in the balls. If some kiddie gangsta punk were in a fight with me and got me on the ground, I would even grab, twist, and pull. A friend of mine (great girl- wears speedlace combat boots and collects knives) has done that a few times...she never loses in a confrontation.

In Australia, if you can't carry weapons, maybe wear steel-toed boots? A good kick can break someone's ankle. In the shin, they'll be incapacitated by the blow. What about the chains that all the punk-rockers wear? Those could make decent weapons. Hmm...maybe the spiked bracelet as well. Just move it down over your knuckles and you have metal spikes to cut up your opponent as you punch.

[sinstar]

I have to wear glasses, which I hate. You just don't seem to project that "Fear of God" look into your attacker with them on, well unless your walking towards them with a hatchet in your hand with a physoctic grin on your face :) But I could never do anything like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[endotherm]

leonvios - Holy shit, use the period key! A period looks like this.

mr.evil - earlier in this topic i posted this:
"I have an idea for a non-lethal weapon that can be easily constructed. All you need is one of those part-popper novelty fireworks, insulate it very well with several layers of duct tape,and take out all of the stramers, add a few grams of black powder and double it's weight in iron fillings, magnesium fillings, and some irritants that won't be destroyed like some sodium hydroxide. The string is pulled and the device is pointed as close to the victims face as possible. When the cap goes off, it will ignite the blackpowder which will propel and ignite the materials in the party popper. The iron/magnesium fillings will cause sever burns and a blinding flash, which will look very scary to any of this persons "crew", and the sodium hydroxide will cause some severe irritation that will leave the victim blinded, and possibley fucked up for life. This device is half actual application and half intimitadion. If one of my friends got blasted with some strange enormous fire ball and i didn't know what it was i'd sure as hell run the fuck away."
This could prove to be very effective, perhaps the irritant doesn't have to be as cruel as sodium hydroxide (just to avoid greater punishment),some kind of irritant that doesnt cause long term damage, like powdered hot peppers. The irritant does not have to be in powder form, a liquid in a <a href="http://www.scrapbookluv.com/41/cat41.htm?359" target="_blank">small marijuana bag</a> like that coudl be used, you could just add ordinary hot sauce or something a little more interesting like sulfuric acid or high concentration hydrogen peroxide.

[leonvios]

if you were to use a small hand held explosive devise i would not like to be
A anywhere near the blast
b fumbling around the streets with a sensitive explosive in my pocket that would be easy to throw at his head but could explode if the hit it in your pocket
so any other easy to use bomb/ incendary that is eask to use compact
and has a short blast range and wont go off in your pocket even if its hit.
im open for suggestions

[mr.evil]

Leonvios, You are right... Having flashbangs with you all the time isn't very clever... But you could take it with you in the evening etc.

Endotherm,
I will do some tests with that method. I think H2O2 isn't irritating enought to burn the skin directly(it takes a while, about 1-2minutes)
Maybe you could use something that stinks really bad?

BTW.
Has anyone heart about 'Spanish Fly'? i've read you can make this with bugs? It seems to be very irritating :confused:

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

[sinstar]

Endotherm- thats a damn good idea(evil though). But I'd keep the NaOh in though,I got hydrogen peroxide on my fingers once, and it turned white and I shat myself thinking it would be like that forever.

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: sinstar ]</small>

[endotherm]

A party popper is not a dangerous, home constucted device, it is a company's prodcut that has to be safe enough not to go off during transport, a party popper will not go off if it is struck, especially with the extra ducttape insulation i suggested, and second, black powder is on of the most shock insensitive LE's around. If you get hit hard enough for it to to go off in your pocket, you were probably fucked anyway (bullet,hit by a car),a punch wouldn't set it off especially when it is also cushioned by your relatively soft body matter. The blast would be small, and if properly insulated, and not pointed at you, would most likely not hurt you,however one would have to experiment to find the optimal amount of propellant to be placed inside, that will
1) Cause no significant recoil.
2) Propel the contents far enough away from you so that none will get on you.
Also leonvios, were you even talking to me? Your absolute rape of the english language has left me confused to what you were even trying to say anyways.

[leonvios]

what about filling a crap wallet with the explosive from a partypopper
attaching the string oneside and the other side with some black powder and some iron and mg powder making a small explosion which could injure but not kill endo and leave distance from you and the crew and the blast which will allow you to run laughing while the iron and mg seer there faces.

[pyromaniac_guy]

J-
I thought in the UK, much as in the states you could get a lisence to own such a weapon and carry it on your person. You may have to ask the queen, instead of the BATF, but in the end it's all the same.. aint it????

Then again... I might not know what the hell I'm talking about!
:)

[Rhadon]

If you want an irritating compound you could use acroleine. The advantage in comparance to NaOH solution is that it can be placed in a refillable 'spraying container' [what's the right word for that?] because it doesn't attack metal.

[MrSamosa]

If you use Acrolein, please be careful. A bad whiff of that can cause death or serious injury. It's not the kinda thing to be taken lightly. It can also cause skin damage, from what I hear. Also, Acrolein does not store very well; it readily polymerizes to a non-irritating goop. However, it's better to have some impurities in it; as this checks the polymerization. Benzoic Acid, Phosphoric Acid, and Hydroquinone (i think that's right), are often used as stabilizers. I've also read somewhere that Acrolein forms Explosive Peroxides if stored...

[endotherm]

Here is a list of some good irritants that could be used:

Liquid:
-30%^ hydrogen peroxide
-sulfuric acid
-pirahna fluid (very dangerous)
-hot pepper sauces,
-high concentration alcohols(flammable)
-lemon juice/citric acid solution
-cyanoacrylate (superglue, VERY irritating and once it hardens in the eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )
-spraypaint paint (blinding and not to mention having a bright blue face for a week :p )
-Strong Ammonia (Smells strongly and is SEVERELY irritant)
-Strong bleach

Powder:
-Sodium Hydroxide/Lye/Crystal Draino
-Fine Charcoal
-Fiberglass/asbestos (give em' a good wiff of some severe and damaging lung irritation after they inhale a sizable cloud of this powdered substance)
-Copper Dust (Severe mucous membrane irritant)
-Silica Dust (Severe lung damgae after inahling a sizable cloud)
-Calcium Hypochlorite powder (pool chlorine, nasty stuff in mucous mebranes)

*** Edit
I had another idea, in one of these "party poppers" one small marijauna baggie of bleach, and one of ammonia, when the two bags burst onto the persons face severe irritation is caused, and if it is not washed off right away some small amounts of deadly chlorine gas will be produced, and directly inahled because it's on the persons face! Also, if he makes a retreat in his posse's car, they are all fucked from the chloring gas too! Kind of like putting a stick of dynamite on a bears back before he goes into his den, he locates and kills/injures all his crew for you!

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]</small>

[sinstar]

Forgive me for not knowing this but what is a pocket dragon? People are always talking about them, I gather(by the name)its a small flame thrower that fits in you pocket(well DUGH!). So how is it made? Is it on the FTP?

[Snowfist1971]

Hey Gang, perhaps I'm a little out of my depth for this topic, but let me give you a little perspective on my view of things since I was a Taekwondo student for a couple of years.

In a potiental fight I've always found these simple rules to always be effective.

1. Always take the psychological advantage, as mentioned, meet long evil stares eye to eye, don't flinch at jumping movements if possible as it reveals fear. Always keep a calm face, or at the very least a wild eyed toothy grin.

2. Know your environment. Don't let yourself be herded somewhere where you can be attacked easily. As mentioned,always make a lot of noise when attacked. Also, as mentioned, be aware of potiental weapons nearby such as scraps of lumber,discarded metal pipe,partially broken glass bottles, loose dirt or sand( good for diversions especially if thrown at someone's face), garbage can lids or especially the smelly garbage in them. You can't imagine the phsychological effect of showering someone with lots of garbage when they don't expect it and of course most such garbage will wash off anyway.

3. Body parts can make good weapons but some obvious every day items work well too such as keys between the fingers as claws, "rat tail" combs with the back edge sharpened in a rough way so as not to look intentionally sharpened, and such things you might normally carry.

4. When without a weapon in hand, strike soft parts of the body where blood vessels pass such as the front of the neck and throat, "boxing" the ears destroys the sense of balance, the soft area just beneath the ribcage will knock the wind out of somebody if struck with strength, poke the eyes, and of course the ever common crotch blow.

I could go but that pretty much covers it.

[endotherm]

sinstar-
A pocket dragon is a handheld flamethrower using an aersol can as propellant and fuel <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000082;p=1" target="_blank">THIS THREAD</a> That could have been found by a simple search!

leonvios- I barely understood the wallet sentence but from what i grasped you are discussing a trick wallet, that explodes when opened . That is actually a good idea but we are talking self-defense here, you can't defend yourself with it, because you still got beat up and jacked, but later on when they go to check how much they scored, they'll be in for quite a suprise! But you will still be lying on the curb faced down in a puddle of your own blood because you didn't have the proper weaponry to protect yourself.

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]</small>

[MrSamosa]

A lot of these things seem like ways to permanently wound or mutilate an attacker. To what point would all of this still be considered "self defense" and when does cross over to "assault" or "assault with a lethal weapon"? I think we should really pay attention to that when choosing a method of self-defense. Exploding wallets that take off fingers and hands are a big no-no. If a burglar who falls through a window and cuts his leg on a kitchen knife that was left out is able to sue the owners of the house for leaving out the knife, imagine what they could do to you for planting explosives in a dummy wallet. Some things that can temporarily incapacitate are good, like the film canister filled with chile powder or black pepper or something. But when you go overboard and start spraying pirahna fluid on someone, then you can really screw yourself over. Flamethrowers? What are you thinking!? You'll have the ATF pull you into an interrogation room and ass-rape you (not literally, but pretty much). God forbid you actually decide to pull a knife on someone and start slashing at their face! Especially if it's a little kiddy gangster who has his buddies to be witnesses against you. Your face will be on every corner and lamp-post until you are arrested and locked in a cage for 2000 years. Small explosives that blow NaOH everywhere? You'll be treated as a "terrorist" (i.e.: secretly arrested, "enemy combatant", no constitutional rights, held indefinately...).

Instead, you should think of ways to not actually hurt the attacker, but to convey the message of what COULD happen to the little punks. I like the idea of pulling the knife and simply threatening to slash his throat or neuter him. Yes! Push the bitch up against a wall with the back of the blade to his neck and say what you wish! Maybe you could pull out a deactivated hand grenade and pull the pin? Threaten to drop the spoon if they don't leave you alone... "If I lift this finger, you will all die in 5 seconds." All a bluff, no harm done.

But then the general brawl shouldn't get you into too much trouble. If it's just a bare-fist fight with no weapons drawn, the penalties won't be TOO bad.

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[nbk2000]

I can see the story now:

"5 local youths, while doing a safety patrol of the night streets, notice a suspicious loner walking alone. When they approach him, the terrorist pulls out a grenade and attacks them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

After fleeing, they contact the (police/constables) who dispatch the (FBI/SAS) to capture the terrorist who, unfortunately, resisted arrest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and was shot 47 times with automatic weapons fire.

The dead terrorist was discovered to be a local citizen. Apparently, the Al-qadia (however it's spelt) terrorist network includes all nationalities. It's because of this that all citizens are asked to co-operate in random searches of their homes and persons."

RTPB: "Don't make threats. You'll appear weak if you don't carry them out, and forwarned your enemy if you do."

If you're pulled over carrying a dummy grenade, you might as well have a live one for the amount of time you'll be doing. Post 9/11, you'll be a "terrorist" if it's real or not.

If someone attacks you, then they deserve anything they get. Period.

[endotherm]

DAMN RIGHT NBK!
My personal opinion is that if someone messes with me, i will do anything I can to fuck them up, and if it involves severely maiming the other person, well...too bad for them.
These weapons i suggested are basically equal to a gun in punishment if you were caught, they would definitely be considered deadly weapons by authorities. These weapons are alternatives to guns because in some places and for some people it's very hard to actually get guns. These weapons and chemicals suggested aren't pussy Non-lethal/Non-Damaging weapons, just good ole' killing machines :)
And that thing about the burgular hurting himself in someones house with a knife, that is from a movie with Jim Carrey called Liar Liar or something, that never really happened.

<small>[ June 26, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]</small>

[MoToMaStR]

heh, back in 6th grade i picked up a book called "hand to hand combat" and learned alot of the commonly used military tactics which definatly gives you the edge when a homie wants your wallet and phones. another good one is called "deadly fighting tactics of the world" iv only ever been put in the position to threaten to break a guys neck and sever the spinal cord if they didnt get lost. usualy its the head of the group that does all the talking and gets in your face, if you put your arms up in the air, they automaticly calm down a bit thinking your submitting already, when he gets in grabbing distance, either strike downwards with an over hand blow to the color bone on his left side, breaking the color bone, causing an unbearable amount of pain for the victim, then take your right arm and turn him so his back is towards you. now is where you make your decesion. you can preform the naked strangel, (his back still to you, you have your forearm locked into his throat with yuor right hand hlding onto you left fore-arm and you puch against his head with your left arm and bodyb while you press in with the right arm into his throat.) this does 2 things, your chokeing the living fuck out of the guy, and youv near totaly cut off the blood flow to the brain. if you continue to hold this it may cause them to lose conscienceness in a matter of seconds, brain damage after about 1 minute or so, burst blood vessels all above the locked point, and eventully DEATH. if not for the gasps and gags for air, it will be the petrified screams for mercy if you ease up on his throat that will back off the homies. threaten to kill him, and see what they do. just remember to stay cool, be relaxed and dont lose your concentration.if your feeling ballsy, start twisting his neck upwards and say you come any closer im gunna break it. the books teach you to take control of the situation. hope this information is usefull to some of you.

[PYRO500]

Pulling a grenade is probably the easyest way to ensure a trip to the hospital anyone around here pulling a grenada out as a weapon would be laughed at. The dummy grenades that you can commonly get are very specific looking and as I recall there hasn't been many uses of (military throwable) grenades in crime in the us or otherwise (but plenty of people with dummy's). I did see on one of those cop shows some guy decided to take on the police with a grenade but he inevitably blew only himsef up (there could have been ahostage but I cant remember if they got free) anyone that even thought the device would know that you would almost certainly kill your self if the grenade went off and unless they were totaly convinced you were a suicidal psycotic (not realy feasable to fake) they would curb stomp your ass most likely. To quote Deus Ex "A bomb's a pretty poor weapon for close range combat"

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[Tyler_Durden]

PYRO- that game fucking rocks. I recently beat it (well, all 3 endings that is)

edit: prematurely hit the post button

Anyway...

why the fuck do you all think taking tae kwan do and reading military h2h combat books will turn you into rambo overnight?

As a general rule regarding martial arts, IF you wear asian uniforms (whether gi or otherwise), practice ancient dances, and prance around while centering your ki or whatever, YOU ARE NOT LEARNING PROPER SELF DEFENSE.

ALSO, as a general rule, 50% of the martial arts books on the market are SHIT. The OTHER 50% require you to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE in order for the book to do you ANY good.

Listen to me, PLEASE believe me. Do not learn fancy locks and throws and other bullshit low percentage techniques. Those kinds of things are not to be relied in. In fighting, you need to master your bread and butter before you even THINK of trying advanced techniques. Akido locks are good for drunks, women, and children... sometimes. That's if you're lucky.

Learn basic kicks, basic punches, practice sparring with a friend, practice THE CLINCH, GRAPPLING (aka ground fighting), AND striking, all three. The basics. Punches, kicks, knees, elbows. Spar with a friend, A LOT. In fact, that isn't even good enough, you need to spar MANY DIFFERENT people so that you will be more prepared for any conflict.

If you have a knife, LEARN HOW TO USE IT. Philipino martial arts are the best you can get for knife and stick fighting, IMO. Do not waste your time with fancy asian weapons that you will never encounter. Learn knife fighting, stick fighting, and no other weapons.

For grappling, learn Brazilian JuiJitsu. NOT normal jui jitsu. BRAZILIAN. After 6 months to a year, you will have a great base in grappling. HOWEVER, always keep reality in mind. What works in tournaments doesn't work on the street (concrete, for starters).

Tae kwan do is not a complete art. You will be a pretty good kicker, but that's it. You will COMPLETELY lack clinch, grappling, and weapon skills. These are all important.

Boxing can never hurt. Take up boxing at a local place! After 6 months, you will have a moderate skill level that will improve hand speed, defense against what most people do (punch), and generally prepare you for what a normal American fighter does (punch).

Muay Thai boxing has been HIGHLY praised for its street effectiveness. Take it if possible. You will become a great stand up fighter after a good length of time training in Muay Thai. You will also be great in the clinch, certain types of takedowns, and ESPECIALLy kicking, with moderate punching skills too.

But now, let me tell you what would save you what could be years in training all of these things... TAKE MIXED MARTIAL ARTS OR JEET KUNE DO.

High level JKD people are for the most part in charge of America's elite groups' h2h training. JKD will give you a well rounded, jack of all trades training. You will learn the most functional aspects of all of the arts previously mentioned, as well as several more. You simply cannot beat JKD training (or mixed martial art training, which are somewhat similar).

JKD is the ONLY complete martial art. It covers all ranges, as well as functional weapons.

Have I ranted enough? I doubt it...

hmm...what else didn't I cover...

OK... in conclusion, don't be stupid, don't waste your time with traditional martial arts (ie karate, shodokan, tae kwan do)

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]</small>

[frostfire]

wow, I'm impressed.....

back in the evil days, I've thought of making the lecter appearance, the basic theory is; one who has nothing to lose is ultimately dangerous, if the attacker see that you're not afraid of death and pain, they will ask themselves if they can afford having the same attitude....

anyway, that HONKER is one ingenious idea, not only it will hurt/distract/disorient the person, but for sure it would draw attentions to the sight. I've never thought of the distraction methods as well...exploding cell phone...uhm, gee, wonder how you'd explain to the cops.

I used to carry scalpel around when I was still working in tissue engineering dept, but I guess I never had the chance to use it, or even would use it

in martial art, I believe JKD is one "free" martial art, as one says that if BL is still alive, he would have explored grappling technique
But I found out that martial art is useless if you don't have the "killer instinct" on the first place, if you're that type of person, in that last second you know you're about to do something hideous to your attacker, you'll stop, even if you seemed ruthless in training with a partner or dummy.

My strategy now is simple, most if not all of you are intellectual people. Wounds, adrenaline, testoterone urge etc etc..and getting killed are not worth those pocket change in your wallet right?

Sometime you just have to aim for bigger picture, these people living in the street would have a darker future than yours if you compare it to your circumstance. So why let yourself subdued by them???

When a mugger approached me, I usually just say; " if I have lots of money, do you think I'll be walking and using public transportation now? Please Sir (call them something nice!), I know you're having a tough time, but hurting me won't make things better"
I've proven this to be working twice, and yes, I did give my belongings away twice as well.

ps: in a safety course, it was taught of being aware of your surroundings, one way to do this is by looking to your side; you ca actually see 360° you might not see in details, but you can detect motion. Just try swaying your hand in you side while looking forward.
If anything makes you uncomfortable, cross the street, enter a restaurant, or anything to avoid getting mugged.

[AmonDin]

If you have time to and money to spend learning a martial art, good for you, if not, time to assess your natural advantages. If you're larger and stronger, try to get in a grappling match, more often than not you can simply overwhelm an attacker. If you're small and fast, use your advantage, simply attack quickly and get out quicker, don't get grabbed.

Also look at your opponent, if he's faster, kick his legs and knees to slow him up. If stronger or larger, fast strikes to vital areas (eyes, face, throat, groin) should equalize him pretty quickly. Hand-dominant opponents (more likely in north america/britain) are usually able to protect their face/torso very well, so your strategy should be to attack lower, legs, knees, groin; frustrate them with their inability to block low attacks. Anyone who relies on kicking must (duh) use one leg to kick while standing on the other leg. Simply attack the base leg, once reduced to ground fighting, their kicking ability will be useless.

Look for potential weapons, and think before using them, any weapon you carry or pick up can be taken and used by your opponent. If you DO carry a weapon, make sure you know how to use it AND how to defend against it/render it useless.

Use any and all advantages in any combat situation (combat- i.e. life-threatening). Muggings (though if your opponent is mugging you with a gun, I don't reccomend fighting back, twenty bucks and a drivers liscense isn't worth a bullet lodged in your kidney) and break-ins are combat situations, local punks looking for a fight are not. For example: When I was younger (Freshmen in High School), a group of smaller/weaker kids (wiggers, the wannabe white gangsters in our small, sububurbab town) followed me home after I 'stepped up' to their leader while getting off the bus. (in reality, he tried to obstruct me while I was getting off, I simply shoved him aside.) I went to the kitchen to get a sandwich when my little brother came home, he said a group of kids were waiting for me outside. I step outside to find the same child I had encountered on the bus (complete with backwards baseball hat and wife beater) with his "posse" about ten feet behind. He obviously wanted a fight, but after a few minutes of throwing him around (his pathetic punches were easily stopped) I told him and his group that I was going inside to finish my sandwich, that they were a waste of my time and I had better things to do... like eating. When they tried to follow me in I turned and said the first one to step inside my house would be breaking in/entering, and I would be well justified in jamming a knife in their gut. They didn't try to come in, but stood outside calling for me to come out and fight for an hour, eventually they got bored and left. (he was the only one yelling, his posse was silent)

Use group psychology to your advantage, a group is a band of weaker elements that have joined together for strength, look for the leader and take him down quickly, the other elements may become demoralized and fragment. If there is no definable leader, simply attack the first available target. A groups weakness is the individuals who comprise it because they depend on the power of superior size, if one element gives up, the others may begin to question their involvement as well, giving you enough time to escape. The only reasonable course against group attack is to run away at the earliest possible time with the least amount of sustained damage. Trying to defeat the whole group only makes them coalesce against you. Divide and escape.

When in any fight, consider the area sorrounding you, is it open, close-in, or inclined? Open spaces favor good mobility and longer weapons (be it long arms, a large stick, or a gun) and deterr smaller, close fighters because they have less chance to to tie up and confine their opponent. Open spaces also allow the best chance for escape with minimal damage. Closed spaces such as hallways or narrow alleys, favor grapplers and close fighters, keep your opponents back to a wall and inflict damage by driving him into barriers. When on an incline (stairwell, ramp, hill) always aim for high ground. Your opponents attacks will be slower and lack power, and his retreat will always be in danger of tumbling down the incline.

Did I ramble? I think I did....

[kanbayat]

there are a couple websites that might be of interest in no-nosense street self defense without all the martial arts mumbo jumbo. first look at sammy franco's site,simply type his name in search,also rich dimitries "senshido" both teach no-nonsense self defense techniques,some might surprise you. they have tapes and books that teach down to earth self defense. marc mcyoung and those to also have a site together called the combat coalition. I have tapes and books by all three
They teach law enforcement,military and everyday ppl like us the art of staying alive in a situation as you have described. hope this helps

[AmonDin]

[EDIT: typo]

You should read some of Sammy's 'war machine' writings. From everything I've read, I've come to believe that this man is a complete fool, just another weak-minded idiot ready to take his pills and consume.

A quote on 'How to Deal with a Pacifist":

"A pacifist is a person who is too cowardly to fight and too fat to run. If you ever have the terrible misfortune of witnessing a peace rally (often run by stupid, naive, hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, try this effective of teaching why force is sometimes needed. 1) Approach the rich, ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation to terrorism" 2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?" 4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence." 5) When he's in mid sentence, slap the little bitch across the face. 6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence." 7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence. 8) Slap him in the face again, harder this time. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to strike back. "

Judging from the 'terrorist' jargon, this man is one of those people who has become successful in one field, and now believes he knows everything. He has also absorbed a lot of propeganda and is now indoctrinating his students with it. Be aware of this if you decide to buy one of those videos or books.

From the "War Machine Code of Conduct":

"A War Machine has compassion for the weak or handicapped. "
"A War Machine ALWAYS obeys the law."
"A War Machine is a skeptical yet open-minded. "

Again, catch phrases and blind subservience to authority and the shifting winds of political correctness.

I'm not criticising this man's martial ability, for all I know, he may be the best H2H fighter on the planet. Just be aware, this man does not sound too intelligent, and you have to take everything you absorb from him with a grain of salt. In all his honor and compassion BS (yet utter willingness to harrass and beat those with unpopular political beliefs) he may have overlooked a simpler, more applicable solution.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: AmonDin ]</small>

[A-BOMB]

Thats why you carry your "equalizer"(gun), knife or a pull-pin
cratermaker(great for drunks and packs of dogs). I carry a spyderco "police" G2 stainless 5 1/2 inch with spyderedge, or for along time I carried a Cratermaker,cob,12gram bomb what ever you call it that was pull-pin safety and a impact igniter, so I'd pull the pin and toss it at the concrete infront of them. But first I cut the case almost all the way through and glue rock salt to the outside and paint a nice color, so when it goes off it doesn't produce any shrapenal but make a loud bang and pelts them with lots of rock salt and it hurts like hell. I know because I was to close when I tossed one at a bunch of niggers that were after this new camo and gear I bought when I was at the army/navy store in Pittsburgh one evenning.
So never get close anothe for them to get near you and when one gets too close for comfort kick him in the floating ribbs of use a palm strike the fultrum (bottom of nose) and they should all run away because that nose strike will kill instanly or should put them down now and they won't be up for a while.

[kanbayat]

having seen some of franco's video's and I own some of his previous books(havn't seen war machine..this is his latest). regardless of his politics,the man knows self defense as does dimitrie,and several others in the coalition. I have rich dimitries tapes on rape prevention for my grand daugther, and the first 3 of franco's. while it is implausible to learn from tapes entirely,there is much to be gleaned in the psycological aspects of self defense in these tapes. If you are in a larger city,there may be an opportunity to learn some of these no nonsense techniqus from a qulified instructor. Another caution is to stay away from traditional martial schools,as most are not effective by there self in practicle self defense. franco teaches the boston police department,has been involved with the marine corp in teaching as well as army sf,and other leo organisations his techniques. which combine the best and easiest to learn aspects of boxing,tai chi chuan,hapkido,hwa rang do,wingchun,wrestling,and many others,as do dimetries and marc mcyoung,although his are slightly different. I believe it is the responsibility of all to know how to defend ones self,whatever the means,and to search out the methods ,be they pyro,h2h,a rat tail comb dipped in nicotine sulphate,or whatever is best suited for that individual. I have been in situations not unlike the one that started this thread,many times in the last quarter century.
do a search,visit a local h2h in youre city,just please for youre sake stay away from traditional matrial arts, it is youre very life that could be at stake.

[nbk2000]

If the "school" insists on you wearing gi, bowing to the sensei, katas, colored belts, eastern mumbo-jumbo, etc...walk away. Last thing you want to do is waste your time in a McDojo. :p

You want a school where you wear street cloths, have full contact sparring with people your size or bigger (challenging opponents), modern weapons (not swords and haragana), breaking bones, smashing nuts, ripping throats, violent and bloody, etc.

Such schools are few and far between, and you may even have to travel or move to attend one, but if you're serious about wanting to learn a lethal H2H methodology, then that's what you've got to do.

[Maddoc]

This post is all too familiar with what I have been thinking about lately...

8 months ago I had my hand and nose broken, and sustained a cut to my head (one of the reasons for my absence lately), unfortunatly, the situation i was in (baseball bat from behind) I had little to go on other than to kick the fucker in the balls when I was lieing on the ground, and to try to stab him with a pen (to little avail, the first blow to the back of my head completly stunned me).

The reason I suffered these injuries was I was not on my guard, and by the time I knew what was happening it was too late. Prevention is better than cure...

But only about 3 months ago, whilst walking in Archway (London), this black youth (around 16) came up to me and asked me for a cigarette, even though I was smoking one at the time my reply was "Sorry mate, I havnt got any". He replyed with the ever so annoying "Ok then, gimme a quid" (quid = £1), the reason that pissed me off so much is they all seem to take that approach, the first time I ever got mugged (aged 12) they took that approach, yet still took my wallet when I went to get the coin.

When I told him to "go fuck yourself", he said "I could just beat you up and take it so why dont you give it to me". Taking this as a threat, yet not knowing whether he was armed, I reached into my pocket, pulled out a pound coin, and opened up my left hand in front of him revealing the coin. This was so he would remove his hands from his pockets to get the coin, as he leant forward, my right hand made swift contact with his nose, whilst my knee made contact with his crotch. The negroid hit the floor, I stamped on his neck, then continued to walk back home.

I guess the moral of the story is to pick your moment like Jhonbus said, then again, the satisfaction of beating the crap out of some dumbass "Rudeboy" who thinks he can take your possesions, is perhaps one of the best feelings in the world.

Nowadays I carry my "vicks nasel inhaler" of hell, nothing like a blast of Capsicum and Isopropyl alcohol to the punks eyes is there, after that then its time to have some fun =)

[Harry]

Important to remember, when preparing your psyche for battle with the crap that is taking over the streets, is that if YOU shorten their career, you're doing the community a service, as the germ in question won't bother anyone else. Try the book, Secure From Crime, by Don Paul and Craig Huber. Don Paul is ex-SF, author of Great Living in Grubby Times and Everybody's Knife Bible. Huber is a professional bodyguard. Don Paul is heavy on the Born-Again Christian retoric, but makes some very good points.

I worked in a surplus store for a while, read all the books. Should have bought more of them; some hadn't been declassified yet, but grunts were selling them by the boxful!

[EP]

People are always talking about how the US is so violent and whatever, but it seems just about everyone from the UK has been mugged! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

A few kind of silly ideas:

Expanding on the exploding wallet idea, I've seen wallets at magician shops that when opened shoot a fireball. It would not cause serious injury but you could give them that wallet and run away to leave them with their "prize". If you were feeling extra evil, they use flash paper and you could add a bit of your own powder to give it more punch.

While on the subject of magicial toys, you could check out handheld fireball projectors: <a href="http://www.starmgc.com/fire.html" target="_blank">http://www.starmgc.com/fire.html</a>

While they wouldn't really be practical to carry with you at all times, if expecting trouble you could carry it. Imagine the surprise of a mugger who gets a firball shot at him!

[frostfire]

Harry, could you please mention excerpts from Don Paul heavy on the Born-Again Christian retoric? I'm kinda interested

is there anyone here a pacifist?

slamming some punk to the ground can give certain unique sensation, but had anyone think what that punk thinks? If you say he'll be hiding and be afraid next time he sees you than you'll prove that's wrong in the hard way. Most street punks are cowards, you beat them today, tomorrow, he and his 10 coward comrades will beat the juice out of you. I wonder how you guys can be so confident with such act? (unless of course, if you too are street punk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

Sometime it seems that it's best to "keep" the punk from further harm and reaching out for friends, but you could end up behind bars for that, so far the way I see is if you have more to lose than him, it's unfortunate but it's best to give in, or commit some "soft" defense and run away....anyway, even this doesn't work so much in today's society. Guess it's near the end

[Arkangel]

I thought about this quite a bit after one of your other posts frostfire, and I'm glad you asked the question.

I'm definitely a pacifist, and it's interesting to see the difference between me now, and when I was 18, just about to join the military, and wearing my "peace through fire superiority" T shirt.

I have, living in my spare room, someone everyone here would call a street punk. I'm giving him a place to live to try and turn his life around after a few hard knocks recently.

When I met him, he was working in the same office as me, and we just kind of clicked. He had something unique about him, that all the other sad fat sacks didn't possess, and we have become close friends - to the point that I and my family are pretty much his family.

What I had no idea of when I first got to know him was that he'd grown up as a street punk, a robber, a violent person with a very dangerous temper. I gradually learned that about him, and later began to learn of the things that had made him that way. His father, a drug dealer and thug, who'd beaten him every day to "make him strong", and then poured salt in his wounds, who'd put his head down a toilet at age 4, and kept on flushing it, who'd half killed him many times. His mother, who had the same sort of treatment from the father, but then went on to take it out on my friend, beating him, humiliating him, playing games that fucked him up for life.

My friend ended up on the streets, and his "crew" became his family. They looked after each other when nobody else could or would. In the last year, I've learnt enough about street life to scare me very much about our future, and to want to make a difference.

I'm writing this for 2 reasons. First, to explain that gangs like this are going to try and look after each other, and will all fight as one, not just because they want your cash, but just because that's the code. If you live in their area and make a choice to fight, either for yourself or society or whatever, remember every day that you're going to remain a target. Do a proper job so that they never, ever dream of fucking with you again. But if you don't want to fight, keep a low profile, your wits about you, and out of their way.

Next I'm writing this as a perspective, that my friend never had a chance to grow up to be normal. He was beaten, starved, humiliated and fucked up for as long as he can remember. He never expected kindness or respect from anyone, and it never occurred to him that there was another way. I make a point, where I can, of being kind to people in the street, being friendly and helping people if I have a chance. That would include the punks we're talking about here (unless they were trying to mug me), because I might just be the person that helps them realise there's another way to live.

I have no doubt that this post will elicit a load of anti-liberal rhetoric, especially from a couple of prominent members <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I also realise that this is a self defense thread in a weapons forum. I wouldn't want you to think I'd hold back if I or anyone close was being attacked, but we've covered plenty of direct defensive techniques and it just occurs to me that in a strategic sense, thinking this way might be just as effective in the long term. You're never going to get through to some people, but some you might!

That's enough bullshit from me for tonight.

[Harry]

Frostfire, will you take a raincheck on the Don Paul excerpts? I'm in the middle of changing residences, and all my books are packed. Try your local Army-Navy surplus store on a slow afternoon; most carry Don Paul's Pathfinder books, and if the store is quiet, you can speed-read the book right there--Don deliberately writes for fast reading. He makes numerous Scriptural references in his writing, which is unusual for books sold in surplus stores, but if you went to Sunday School as a kid, you'll catch most of them.

Don discusses the morality of self-defense according to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. The Law of Moses (which includes the 10 Commandments) allows for self-defense and defense of home and family. In fact, it is _required_. Don includes Christ's advice to the Apostles to "take your swords with you; and if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one." David took down Goliath, Samson slughtered Philistines by the thousand, and (what was that chick's name who) hammered a tent stake through a guy's head. The list goes on. Sure, Don Paul shows off some ego, too, but for the most part provides good info and technique. Wish I'd read his books when I was in high school, would have saved me some trouble.

[grey]

All the unarmed combat stuff does not work against multiple opponents except to give you a couple of seconds extra time enough to pull out a decisive weapon or until your mates (10 meters away) arrive.
If its you with no weapon and no mates against a little gang who most likely are carrying weapons, then you are dog fucked unless you have 8 arms.
Under these circumstances, avoid high risk areas and if you are rolled then give them the $. Having throw away money and a dead phone, as suggested earlier, might satisfy them, so then you can go home in one piece and think about better ways next time.

You got the time, mate ? He's already assessed you as being a possible victim and is now testing the strength/politeness of your response to make sure. All thats going to keep him away from you is a response that makes him feel "not this one...".
For this he has to see/feel that to you, his question is only an opportunity to fulfill your genuine and eager need to cause him/anyone great pain and blood loss. Unless you are a superbly trained method actor the only way to make this response instinctive under stress is for it to be real, and it only gets that way from sucessfully fighting opponents in the gym and outside, and enjoying their loss. A brief derisive answer Shut your mouth, cunt....while you keep walking.

Or, a response he doesn't understand despite several different/repeated "questions". The latter would be you remaining silent, putting your finger to your lips, and pointing back behind you at someone/something..sssssshhhhh!
The pond life specimen has in his little brain a "script" to follow, of what he is going to say and do (probe and threaten) and what you are going to say and do (plead and pay). When you don't follow the script you might buy yourself enough time to keep walking far enough away. He WILL keep trying to talk his way in so expect that.

Or, a response that he doesn't expect.
Eg. The only time I have ever been in this kind of pre-mugging situation was when backing my car out of a pub carpark, half pissed and expressing feelings of love to my girlfriend - ie., no real aggressive posture. Two fuckheads (white teenage welfare types - Aussies will know the word 'house-o's..') about 15 meters away eyeballed for 2 seconds and wandered over. One asked "Hey what engines this car got, the V6 eh ??" I twigged to what was happening, switched modes, and spat out "Fuck I dunno, its a stolen, I only grabbed it this morning, I dont fucken know, why do you wanna buy it or somefink !?" Yes they were bluffed, yes I had enough time to drive off without them realising, yes there were a couple more lines more of the same, yes I genuinely felt like a car thief (again), no they did not feel the need to pull a handgun or kick the doors in, no the machete bladed trench knife in the door pocket did not need to come out, no the thousands of dollars worth of security cameras all over the carpark did not need to record anything unusual.
The point was that before I saw them I looked soft and caring so they thought I was a good prospect - my later verbal/physical reponse threw out a lot of energy at them which stopped them long enough. If that energy wasn't (always) there then it would be a different story.

Bottom line(s)....

Do PT, fighting training, and full contact sparring - if you look like you are a problem then they won't ask questions. If they do ask, you just know they will go down and they will pick that up too.

** The strongest will wins in the end.** If your willpower melts into the fear that their mind's 'script' expects to see, then you loose. If instead you want to eat their flesh as NBK described then you win (even if one of their mates puts a round through your head).

Weapons - forget easy-to-pick-up improvised ones, they are too far away. Yours can stay in your hand inside your pocket until ready to maim; if they see it they loose their fear of the unknown plus start thinking how to cope with it. Knife searches only happen to people who look like they are carrying knives.

Questions and answers. Silence is golden. Don't get dragged into a conversation. The more you respond the more you are following their script and the more control they get, as opposed to you originating your own brief response which they don't enjoy.
The more you talk the more they learn about you (and it better be scary... ).

Does that all sound like Sun Tzu "Win without fighting.." (No one mugged Master Sun..)

If they physically block you then it hasn't worked. If you walk around them then they have the psycholgical edge over you. Pay up or fight. Personally I would just run them through as soon as we got to zero distance.

Complications - Angelo said Murphy's law will make it all turn to shit - how true.

Complication #1; SMACK.....druggies are so singleminded.. just gotta get that fit into the vein.. forget logic in a fried brain. Still, if they ask you the opening questions first then they are still rational enough to become cautious. Also if you get into a brawl with one expect to get some HIV+, Hepatitus A B C D E F G etc blood on you.

Complication #2; personal honour (theirs). If their mates are around they cannot afford to loose face, so keep your response quiet and low key so that they can later have a bigger range of explanations to their mates. The honour thing applies a lot to non whites; ie., Viets and Lebs in Australia.
Keep it as a business transaction; cost versus benefit, and don't upset anyone.

Archangel, 110%, mate - a human life is a human life and if the kid was drowning in a river I would be the first one in to try to pull him out, but......if he or anyone like him wanted to hurt me or one of my family then I would be the first to hold his head under water. I hope he learns a lot from you because others will see him in a very different way to you.

<small>[ July 04, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: grey ]</small>

[MrSamosa]

Grey- that's well and good... But what if the guy really wants the time :confused: ? You gonna go berserk on him? "Can I have the time man?" "FUCK YOU! YOU WANNA FIGHT? I DONT KNOW WHAT FUCKING TIME IT IS!" Man, forget everything your parents taught you about being polite. I'm a nice guy for the most part, polite to everyone even if I don't like them. I've NEVER had any problems so far...except one where I had to use my pencil (not THAT pencil) on two or three people in school. Maybe if you just have a good attitude and people skills, you can avoid some of these problems altogether?

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

[PYRO500]

You all are making it more complicated than it needs to be, I'd recomend pepper spray, when someone tries your ass you spritz them and give em a good low blow, knock them down and kick em in the face.

[Anthony]

"He who fights and runs away is wasting valuable running time"

I think grey's analysis of the psycological aspect was quite good.

I must admit that my area isn't too bad, there aren't people who are stabbed for no reason *that* often but people I know do often get hassled by groups hanging about. I find (quiet) confidence projection to be quite effective. If you feel like a victim then you'll end up being one. If I have to pass a group, I will not avoid eye contact, but starring incites a challenge, so I'll meet their gaze and look away as though I acknowledge but dismiss them. I walk through silently with a "don't fuck with me" thought in mind, I don't know whether this actually shows in facial expression and body language.

Having a weapon in your pocket with your fingers round it, ready to whip it out if you are started on helps a lot.

Arkangel, is this guy more the exception than the rule?

[Arkangel]

He's exceptional in many ways (e.g. close on olympic standard 400m runner), but in terms of the street, he's no different to many of the people we talk about here.

One thing I find interesting is that in terms of violence, he used to look for bigger people to take on. I'm 6'1", 16 stone and well built. I used to compete in full contact karate, and I have to say there's no way I would want a straight fight with anyone like him. He's got the physique of Ben Johnson, and a temper you have to see to understand how dangerous he is.

Most of the people he knows from the street are from similarly fucked up familial backgrounds. They bullied and were bullied at school, and running with a crew was a way to protect yourself at that level, and a means of support later in life.

Frankly it's a miracle that he's ended up in a proper job and been able to keep it. This came about primarily because at a time when he was living on the street and had sold everything to pay for a gambling/coke habit, he was taken in by a woman from a church organisation, and she helped him to get his first job. From that point he's clawed his way out of the gutter. But his brothers and friends are in the same position, every day is one of fear and crime, and they fully expect to die young. This is not LA, this is England, yet guns are so common, knives are taken for granted.

There's a level of society where awful violence is a heartbeat away, and if you choose to or have to be in such a place, you'd better tread carefully.

I really liked Grey's post on the psychological side. When I was travelling in South America my mates and I always wore army hi-leg boots, army khaki pants and similar sweatshirts and generally looked like paramilitaries. Nobody camne near us, despite other folks being robbed all over the place.

It's like someone pinching cars, if it looks an easy job they'll do it. If not, the chances are they will move on elsewhere. You have to project confidence, power, and the possibility of danger.

And if you are going equipped with a weapon, mace, baton, film can or spray bottle of pepper, then it better be in your hand, in a pocket that you can remove it from in an instant. You also better be planning in your mind EXACTLY how you're going to use on the guy easing up alongside you. "Fortune favours the prepared mind" etc

[Arkangel]

In fact, he knows I'm on the forum, and is interested by it. Since he's afro caribbean, some of the views expressed here have not gone down well, but here's a thought...................

Would anyone be interested in the views of somebody who has been on the other side of a mugging? They use car thieves to design new car security systems, so it might be enlightening to ask him how he would have chosen who to rob and how to do it. Also, what might have been a deterrent, and what wouldn't?

If you'd like me to set it up, let me know and we'll work out how. :)

[panthatar]

in australia where i live in NSW u can be searched at any time if u look sus but u can buy a kobotan and once u put ya key's on the ring on it it becomes a key ring which when used properly will instill alot of pain and its legal seeying its a keyring that is just of a sloid nature and has no hidden attachments to it to make ya success of a higher reality one would also learn some chin na and dim mak and u would be ready for most H2H combat situations i find when attacking if u do it fast and conceal what u used any other party near bye thinks u used ya hands and adds to scare factor plus it also can be used to block knife slashes to the wrist area

[photonic]

ArkAngel:
I think that idea is very intriguing. I would be more than interested to hear the viewpoint of someone from the "other side." If you could, allow him to contribute here.

On a side note, I would like to mention that to many people in the world people of "our" type are the ones they worry about. In the media fed anti-terrorist frenzy here in the US, people of our "type" are the ones to be feared. Not that we deserve this reputation, but I think it's true. So in a certain sense, most of what said here is from the "other side."

[Flake2m]

I believe that "It takes a fool to fight and a man to walk away". So I won't fight someone unless I have no other options. You may disagree with me, but I know that confrontations can be resolved in other ways, though they aren't always the way you want.
I am going to put forward a senario:
If a low-life heroin addicated mugger pull a knife on you and says "give me ya fu(king wallet or I will slash ya". this mugger is 6 foot tall, slim build and has the intelligence of a goldfish. You are alone at night in an alleyway walking home.
you have have several options;
1. do what he says.
2. run.
3. try and fight the attacker off
4. puzzle him so he walks off.

[nbk2000]

Can you have a dog in Oz or Britan, or is that illegal too now? :p

If you can, get something MASSIVE like a brindel, presa canario, rhodesian ridgeback, mastiff, rottweiller, or other "assualt" dog species. Huge, muscular, and violently tempered. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

If you have a 150 pound, foaming at the mouth, ready to devour human flesh on command, bundle of death on the end of a short leash, I bet you the street cretins will buy a watch rather than ask YOU for the time :D

Grey makes a lot of good points about the psychological battle being fought before the lead flies. If you can mind-fuck your opposition before they even get one word off at you, then the battles already won in your favor. The only thing left is to put them down on the pavement where they're destined for.

Nothing freaks a person out like bugs on them. Especially something icky like spiders. You ozzies have some really nasty bastards called "funnel web" spiders (I believe). The beasts are the size of a golf ball with 1/2" long fangs and lethal poison. Carry one in a small plastic jar it can't climb out of (with a lid of course!). Some scumball approaches asking for the time, casually tell him "I don't have a watch, but you can have this if you like". Pull out said spider jar and pop off the lid and show him the beast reared back with fangs dripping venom. That'd scare ME off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

A cup full of fire ants for us americans would work wonders on some 'hood rat. Give it a good shake before tossing a hundred or so pissed off stingers on the shithead. While he's screaming and running around, you beat a hasty retreat.

Snakes are neat. There's a harmless species that looks just like the lethal coral snake. Carry one around as a pet. A defanged cobra perhaps? Are snakes considered weapons?

A can of wasp spray can reach out 20 feet and is going to fuck off anyone you spray with it. Tell any cops who stop you that you're deathly allergic to them.

As for the "script" that the thugs run through, if you prempt their routine, you've thrown a serious monkey wrench in their thought process. If you KNOW the approaching scuzzy is going to try something stupid, approach him first!

Say something like "Hey man! Know where I can score some (illegal drug)?". Start rambling on about how there's nothing good around and how you're almost out of your stash.

This gets him to thinking about whether you have dope or money on you and what he should say to get it from you. And while he's busy thinking about this, when you're within range, you fire on 'em! Not literally (like a gun), but just suckerpunch the punk and beat the living shit out of him before the shock of YOU (a lowly yuppie) attacking HIM (an all powerful gangsta' :rolleyes: ) wears off. Then beat feet!

Or, you can do what an aquaintence of mine does. Tell anyone who asks to "Quit begging! Makes people hate you!" and look them straight in the eyes with HATE! 'Course, dude is like 6'2", 250 pounds of muscle, with sleeved arms (tattooed with WP and prison symbols), and barely restrained homocidal tendencies, so that might be what makes it work so well for him.

Or, you can be dismissive and tell them "Get a watch!" as you continue to walk past them. DON'T break stride or hesitate, that shows you're putting on an act. Rehearse it with harmless street beggars in crowded public places before trying it solo on street thugs.

This sorts out the dumbfucks who are harmless from the thugs using a come-on to size you up. They'll either talk shit to your back as you walk away, or attack. Either way, you'll know where you stand with them with no hesitation. Better to be rude to an innocent idiot than polite to a sociopathic predator.

A few fudge brownies rolled up into a "turd" and kept in a plastic bag inside the back of your pants would freak someone out. Babble on about the "CONSPIRACY against you!" and reach back into your drawers and pull out a handful of 'shit' and offer it to them as protection against the "mind control rays". Proceed to smear on your face. :D Like Mega said before, even cops won't approach a nutter with shit!

I've seen molds for making gelatin fingers as a gag food for holloween. At night, a few fleshy and bloody "fingers" to nibble on might be all the deterrent you need. Be friendly, and offer to share some with your time seeking buddy. Perhaps a good line like "Here, use a finger to dial the time" and toss it at his feet. :D

Prevention, however, is preferred. If you see a group of "house-o's" or brew-crew sitting on a slope a block away, unless they're sitting on the very doorstep you need to go to, cut over to the next block and circle around them. Only takes a couple extra minutes and saves all the drama. The battle never fought is the battle never lost.

As for your "friend", bring him on. It never hurts to have another point of view from the "other" side. :) And as long as he doesn't say something stupid like "What do you have to be proud about being white for NBK?" like that other BFL retard did, then he's welcome.

[panthatar]

the problem with dogs in Oz is that if u have one it must be on a lesh if u get into a fight and the dog harms anyone in any way it will be put down and the owner is finned and somtimes even jalied depanding if it was deliberatly used as a weapon funnel web spiders actualy are more passive then femal redback spiders and the red back is smaller so more could be put in a container and u can red backs all around australia especialy in built up areas and one bite from a red back can kill small children and elderly people but make a grown man sick but if u got stung bye 2-3 or more say goodbye and how are they gonna prove u killed him with spiders its not somthing that alot of police belive if the person who has been killed has friends to u ratio higher then one seeying aussie cops are used to truble makers in groups and u just have to look clean and respectible and be curtious to the cops and they will most likley belive u this only works if there is trees near bye the area u are fighting in

-
Please try to format your posts a bit, these endless sentences are a bit hard to read.

Try to use paragraphs.

Machiavelli

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

[BoB-]

I'd like to say I'm quite proud of myself, last night me and a group of hooligans I barely know went out to shoot off a metric assload of fireworks. I was lighting bottle rockets in my hand and throwing them when a buddy lit a bottle rocket which went up into my shirt before exploding, hes a friend, so I just body slammed him :D

A little while later I realised I dropped my lighter when I was on fire, so I was just standing there trying to hook up with a chica someone had brought with them, all of a sudden 2 guys (forgive my ghetto term) "step" to me, yelling at me that I need to stop throwing fireworks at them.

I had absolutly no idea what the hell was going on so I just stand there with a pissed off look on my face, all of sudden the guy that was about an inch from my face stops talking and walks away cursing me. I then looked down to see my box cutter in my hand, with the blade extended about a 1/2".

there were about 6-7 people there who wouldve beat the shit out of me had that one guy thrown the first punch.

I still dont remember pulling it out or extending the blade, all I remember is practicing the motion in my room for the past couple of weeks, preparing for just such an occasion.

No matter which weapon you decide to carry, practice, practice, practice.

[Ctrl_C]

I have to admit I couldn't be bothered to read this whole thread so if I miss something, I apologize.

This is in response to Tyler_Durden's post (ironically). I completely agree about MA and how a lot of it is crap and you should learn basics. I never took any MA classes or have read any books but I can tell you one thing from experience that works: fist fighting.

The hardest part about this is finding a friend thats willing to bloody you up a bit. Once you do though, go all out...punch him in the face, try (don't really) to break his jaw, throw him down. You'll learn a lot about yourself and be able to figure out if you can hold your own in a fight or not. Yes, you will be sore for a few days and you will have hella bruises, but oh well....get over it.

[Maddoc]

NBK2K, with regards to dogs, my bitch Rottweiller makes people cross the street to avoid walking past her. Although you dont always need an "attack" dog for defence.

When my aunt came back home after walking her VERY well trained Labrador, she saw a negroid climb out through her bedroom window (this was in St Petes Beach). When she shouted at the guy to "DROP THE FUCKING VCR", he through a coolie at her (those mugs that you put in the freezer), and her dog, which she had never trained to attack anyone (that dog even stops before she tells it to cross the road) jumped up at the guy and bit into him. Giving her time to kick him in the face several times before a passer by came to help.

So it seems that a dogs loyalty to its owner is deeper than it seems, just make sure your dog never turns on you.

In essence, the build up to a fight is mostly mental, trying to "psyche" each other out. Whoever hesitates loses, if you start something, go all out until its over, dont hesitate for any reason, dont give them the chance to get back up. In the street, theres no such thing as fighting "dirty".

One example that comes immediatly to mind is on the CKY3 tape (thats what Bam Margera and the guys made before MTV signed them to Jackass), one clip is "Mike Valley Vs. 4 random Ocks", Mike Valley is surrounded by 4 guys, just slightly smaller than him,this wasnt a staged stunt, this was a real street fight.

They all hesitate and move backwards, whilst Mike, outnumber 4:1, rips his shirt off to reveal pumped muscles and a load of tattoos, picking him moment, he takes them all down one at a time.

The thing is, if all 4 had started on Valley at the same time, they could have taken him down in seconds, but these four pussies decide to hesitate, and Mike works through them one at a time. Mike had scared them into moving backwards, hesitating, then he took them down. (I'll try to upload this clip when I get the chance)

Moral of the story, there is no time to hesitate, just go for it.

[J]

If it wasn't a staged stunt, it seems strange to me that his friend decided to film the fight rather than help out in some way. Some friend!

I have a video CD called Bumfights. It's about various street people (including some filthy crack addict), and includes some real fights. My observation is that the oponents just keep slugging away at each others faces, without going for dangerous areas. If I still had cable, I'd upload it to the FTP :-( It's quite funny, including someone dressed as Steve Irwin 'capturing' tramps and marking them with a pen before 'releasing them back into the wild' :D

[nbk2000]

Bum Catch and Release! A new Xtreme urban sport! <img src="http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon7.gif" alt=" - " />

I can just see it now...you cast a 40 oz. Malt Liquor lure off a freeway overpass into the bushes underneath. And when you feel a tug on the line, you winch 'em up with the hook in their hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

As they wiggle on the cable you measure their BAL (Blood Alchol Level) and, when finished, cut the cable to drop them back into the bushes. :D

Whoever catches the soberest bum wins the gold plated 40 oz. trophy. :p

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Most people aren'te experienced fighters, so they're just going on instinct, which is the 'ol "monkey swinging arms wildly" school of H2H. You've seen it on National Geographic specials about the apes of the rainforest, and now you can see it in any back alley wino brawl.

[Arkangel]

Re: my pal, I'll suggest it to him and assuming he's up for it, start a new thread sometime.

edit: forgot to mention that he's started a new job recently and is working hard, so I might not be able to get him on for a week or two. Meantime I'll get on with some bumfishing - thanks for the idea NBK :)

<small>[ July 07, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

[grey]

MrSamosa If they really only want the time..? You mean if two nuns ask me..... oh shit I'm sorry God... :)
No, there really is no room for being nice - an uncompromising attitude keeps everyone, including it's owner, in check.

Pyro500 & Ctrl_C Correct - thinking and hesitation implies faltering willpower - you have to just know.......a bit of Zen around here somewhere..

NBK What, you just never get any original ideas do ya :) :)
The ants idea is sweet. Fire ants, Oz bull ants..same deal. Probably more of an offensive weapon if you are going after a specific target with a beer glass sized container of them. Collect them with a vacuum cleaner since they are indestructable. Fling the ants then drop the container. Gloves ! If the lid gets loose inside your coat while you're carrying it, then you are in hospital.
The idea about practising is good - in the end it merges into the old concept of just picking fights with people for the hell of it. Both concepts perfect your public speaking skills - which is what half (the half after you get asked the time) this is all about.

Brawling in general ? The Bumfighting video may have been edited to keep the "best" footage of the bums fighting on their feet showing their full vigour and magnificent raw animal dominance, but most punch ups finish up as a wresting match on the ground - not the place to be outnumbered. Where can I get a copy ?? :)

OK, a couple more Murphy's Law fuckups that come to mind; when your script about counter-mugging looses a few more pages...

Complication #3. The chicky (maybe not chicky babe). She walks up to you in the street or inside a building near the street and please can you give her $2 for cup of coffee or milk for her kid. Simple ? If you're too polite or too reactive then will her boyfriend 30 meters away think you are a good prospect ? All she is doing is out fishing in a non threatening way since Romeo is sick of asking people the time. So what sort of person did you tell them you were ? (I presume you didn't pull out 2 bucks.......).

Complication #4. Another test of your reactions. Some dirt type wanders across your direction of travel and just comes that little bit closer than other pedestrians. He doesn't move out of the way and he does make good eye contact but its obvious he isn't going to talk or stop. He is going into your personal space. Do you show surprise, distain, fear, curiosity, aggression etc, etc, about someone in your space ? His mate watching 30 meters away will see what you do about it and they both will have a chat about it on their cell phones. What will they say ?

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: grey ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

Here are two situations I got into and got out without being hurt. I don't know if this info could be of help for anyone of you but here it is:

1.) When I was a teenager I walked my dog at night in a medium sized Austrian city. My dog was a dachshund so of no good use for defense :rolleyes:
I was on the main square of the xity when a gang of juveniles looking for troubles surrounded me. The joungest of the group stepped forward and made silly remarks about my dog. I didn't reply and walked straight away from him in the hope the guys would just let me pass. They didn't. the youngster became bolder and I just told him that I am looking for no troubles and he should quit that. He became overly self confident and pulled out some chain with a weight on its end hreatening to hit me. Next thing I did I was rushing towards him, grab the chain just above his hand, let it swing around my wrist and rip it out of his hand. Then I simply took him by his neck and said: "OK. That's about it. I think we'll better go see the police." Still having him at the neck I dragged him towards his astonished colleaugues who (now to my astonishment) opened their ranks and let me pass. I didn't find a cop in my vicinity and after I've seen that the group was gone I just kicked him away.

2.) I once got jailed for stealing a motorbike in Southern Spain. The prison cell I was assigned to was huge: About 40 bunk beds - almost all occupied with Moroccans and Spaniards jailed for drug crimes.
The horrible thing happening was that inmates were being raped at the toilet every night. This fact alone made me extremely scared. I actually got so intimitaded that whenever some of these guys asked me for a cigarette I handed one over. This went alnog for about 3 days when these bastards weren't satisfied with an occassional cigarette but demanded a whole pack. This was the point when I simply said "no". The same evening, after the wards have already closed the cell door I happened to overhear three of the nastiest guys to agree that this night would be my turn to have fun at the toilet.
I felt like the infamous rabbit watching a snake. When I finally relized that they were heading over to my bunk I jumped up, grabbed the big table, overtuned it, screamed like a madman, took a chair, smashed it to pieces on the cell door and made as much nois as I knew how. The guys were so disturbed by these actions that they didn't even try to subdue me. Soon the wards came, released me of the cell an I told them what I knew. For my own safety they put me in solitary lockup and I felt I was being blessed for this. I managed to remain there until my trial was due and two days later I was released from prison.

[nbk2000]

Typical punk behavior. Brave in a group, but take out the leader and they all turn into bitches.

Those turks are well known sodomites. Lucky you escaped with your "virginity" intact!

The problem with both of these situations is your initial attempts at being civil. Instead of showing courtesy, it shows weakness.

Remenber, you're dealing with barbarians. No matter that they speak the same language or wear the same clothes as you, you're dealing with people who'd be comfortable in a "Conan the Barbarian" setting. Treat them as Conan would, first ignore them and if they persist then violence. Don't acknowledge them unless it's with your guns (fists or literally).

Don't go off on the nuns (though be wary anyways), but some hoodie walks up to you at 2AM on a deserted street...ATTACK! You'll have either pre-empted his attack, or taught him the value of owning a watch! HAHAHA!

Would a meat hook through the leg/arm be considered attempted murder? I know that, in turkish law, stabbings below the waist aren't murder, only assualt.

A thick stick with a long screw in the end, with the head cut off and filed needle sharp, can be used to pick up cans for recycling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Carry around a plastic bag with some cans in it and you can carry a spear in public without arousing peoples fear. Hide in plain sight. :)

Better yet, be pro-active and deter hoodie presence in areas where you frequently travel. Stink-um the places they like to hang out (bags of shit and piss work well), black out the lights (pitch black) so they'll have to sit in the dark all the time, set up some bug hives, or something.

Late night explosions on random nights will bring a constant police presence and hoodies will get the blame. Spray paint some gang graffiti from a rival gang on their turf and cross it out yourself. Instigate a gang war. Hopefully the garbage will kill each other. Place a cheap scale, couple dozen baggies, and a half kilo of "cut" in a paper sack where they hang out. Anonymous phone call to the police about the "drug dealing" going on... :D

Be creative. Get Machavillian on them.

[Chade]

Seems to me there's three main places you could get attacked, and have to defend yourself. At home (burglary), near your home, or far away from your home.

For me, the most troublesome of these three would be getting attacked near your home. You really, really don't want these guys knowing where you live, as you'll have endless trouble, unless you take them out of circulation permanently.

Step 1 - Don't even be where the trouble is.
Your number one way of avoiding trouble is to be, well, a bit of a wuss. If you go out in your neighbourhood, go in the daytime, stay around people, keep in the open where you can see trouble coming, and generally follow all the self defence advice the police give you, which is pretty good at helping you not to be where the trouble is. If you travel, fuck the environment and use a car. Drive from your garage. This means trouble won't hit you near your home. Move to a nice neighbourhood. Don't walk through the rougher areas. And as NBK always says, 'know your environment'.

A few years back I was often in the situation of having to walk back from a friends house late at night. The first thing I did to minimise the risk was to wait until three or four in the morning, on the assumption that even the crackheads would be going 'God, is that the time?' Also the streets were so empty that anyone walking around that time was automatically someone to be avoided. (Case in point, me.)
The other thing was that my house backed onto a forest. On a moonless night, I'd walk back through the forest. Very dark, and tricky to manage, but I doubt any muggers were sitting about waiting for someone in those woods. (Also quite fun, although I got the fright of my life once when I almost ran into a badger. Those fuckers are scary at three feet when they're riled.) I'm not sure I'd advise this, but I've excellent night vision, and it allows me to use it to my advantage.

Most of this stuff clearly isn't possible for everyone. For example, I can't drive at the moment, and public transport is a pretty common situation in which to get mugged. I think a study on where people get mugged would prove very interesting. Does anyone know of such a study? It could incorporate weighting of how many people tend to walk alone in any given environment (park, alley, multi-storey car park), and lighting conditions All you can do is reduce your odds of getting selected as a victim.

Step 2 - Reducing your odds of getting selected as a victim.
So you've had to go where the trouble is. Maybe you can't drive, or live in a crappy neighbourhood, or have to travel in and out late at night. My main method of avoiding trouble has traditionally been my reputation, but that does me no good against a mugger who doesn't know me from Adam.
Present a poor target. Look like it would be PETTY (tm-NBK2000) to attack you. Look moderately poor, moderately tough, and very unstable. Extremes of most types tend to attract trouble.

Look rich, get mugged. Look scruffy as hell, and some local skinheads will likely kick hell out of you for no better reason. Just wear cheap clothes. Slightly worn jeans, cheap trainers, cheap t-shirt, cheap coat or jacket in the cold. (Do I have to say avoid local gang colours? :) )

Same goes for toughness. Lok weak and get mugged. Look like Bruce lee, and someone will want to test their mettle against you. I know a guy who's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and (in addition) is as tough as a coffin nail. Once, coming back from the class he taught, someone ran up to him, punched him in the head, and ran off. Now there's fuck all you can do about that, and we strongly suspected it was a bet. (The guy didn't hang around, so we know it wasn't a suicide attempt)
Look able, aware of your surroundings, but not like you're looking for a fight. Apparently people are less likely to try something on with someone who has good bearing*. This is just according to my Aikido instructor. (side note: No, I don't know Aikido, I pretty much suck at it as I can almost never make it to the classes)

And the one extreme that's not likely to get you attacked, in general, is looking unstable. When I'm walking alone at night, I deliberately develop nervous twitches. People don't want to tangle with someone who's twitchy. They get scared of them doing something irrational. I also periodically chuckle to myself. Short, clipped bursts of chuckling, like you just can't hold it in. I'm sure you could try other things. Maybe quoting the bible. There's a quote from a comedian called Simon Munnery which goes, 'Everyone's scared of nutters, but even nutters are scared of religious nutters.' Avoid things like quiet mumbling, which just makes you sound more passive, and a target for someone who just wants someone to beat up. Also seeming unstable is something you can turn on or off in an instant, for example if you judge that it's only going to escalate a situation. You can also start it when someone suspicious (or just someone) comes into view. After all, if you have a choice, you don't want to be personaly interacting with your mugger.

Step 3 - Personally interacting with your mugger.
It's almost always possible to stay a good distance from anyone suspicious. (that's anyone but babies and Nuns. And as was said, watch those Nuns) I've avoided a fight when I saw a group of people three hundred feet away. I started walking just to avoid them, just in case. Around a corner, and up the road, I noticed someone walking behind me. I crossed the road. He crossed the road. Red Flag. I crossed back. He crossed back. Fuck. I ran, and noticed his 'Posse' of about fifteen kids behind him. (I was about fifteen at the time, he was a little older, his motley crew a little younger.) The head start let me escape, although there was no real reason to consider them hostile when I stated moving. On a side note, the dumb fuck crossed the road the second time. That did nothing but give me more warning.
Anyway, Cops stay a safe distance from anyone suspect, why shouldn't we?

If someone approaches you, I just stay away. If they're harmless, they know all you've done is avoid them, which is not all that rude, and anyway, didn't your mum tell you not to talk to strangers? If they continue, then they're probably hostile. There's a slight chance you've aggravated them a little, but you've been alerted earlier, which gives more time for you to get on top of your adrenaline and react how you want to. You should be able to manage to try the notion of keeping your distance, and not piss them off enough to screw up your chances of talking your way out of trouble. So now the guy's almost on you, and you've got to decide what to do.

Step 4 - Decide what to do
OK, so it's clearly silly to actually decide now. What I really mean is now is when you implement your pre-prepared plan. This is, in a way, also Step 0, as it's the one thing you do now. Are you the sort of guy who could get away with doing what (In an ideal world) I'd like to do to a mugger, and shoot them in the face? Are you going to run like fuck? Talk your way out of it? Here's the kicker. If it's a group of guys, or someone who's likely to be around for a while in between prison visits, then you can't leave them as a threat. They've marked you now, and if you leave them with a kicking, or a broken arm, or a BP party popper in the face, you could find a molotov through your window next week. This is the problem, as you live near here! Even if they don't find you, they'll clock you sooner or later, as it's your doorstep, and if you could avoid it, you'd not be in this situation in the first place. Then it's time for their retribution, be it sooner or later.

Your options, as I see it are: Run
Appease the mugger (referred to from here as the 'victim')
Or put him where he can't make trouble anymore.

The last one is kind of appealing, but the only two ways I can think of would either involve getting him arrested for the rest of his or your life, or shooting him, stabbing him, chopping him into little cubes, or otherwise rendering him, well, dead. If you want him arrested, unless you can call in the cops remarkably quickly, you have to appease him, and get the cops to go around later. If you wanted to kill him, well, it's on your doorstep (bad) so I personally wouldn't want to risk it.

So, we're left with appeasing him or running. Decide if you're up to running now. If that's your plan, stick to it. I wouldn't run home, but to the nearest source of help. Police station ideally, but anything in a pinch. Train, a lot. This is your plan, so adopt it whole heartedly. Do sprint training, not endurance training. Your aim is to outrun him, or as plan B, just reach help. You'll find help quicker yelling your head off.

If running and screaming like a little girl isn't your style, you'll have to appease the victim. Either talk your way out of it, if you can, or give him what he thinks he wants. I'd hand over the fake wallet I carry around. I'd consider putting in a genuine tenner or something, as well as a couple of things to make it look realistic. If he asks for a phone, now this is what I'm looking at, at the moment. Making a phone (working or not) that contains an electronic device you can use to trace it. I have no idea how feasible this would be, but it's the only way I can see to 'win'. A third thing they often do is walk you to a cashpoint at knife or gun point, and make you take out all your money. Most cashpoints have a daily limit, but beware of getting jumped before midnight. It'd really wrankle to get your account drained twice. Once before, and once after midnight. Little you can do about that last one, except not keep a card, or sufficient money in that account. Make sure you don't have anything on you you don't want to lose. When he's taking your stuff is probably the point where you have to remind yourself that fighting him would leave him coming after you which is the reverse of the ideal scenario.

Step 5 - The ideal scenario
You've been robbed. Probably beaten up too. If you get a kicking, I'd fight back a little, but not go all out. If they took the phone, you just need to make it look good. If you think they're really out to kill you, run or do your best to defend yourself. If you hand over your stuff, or dump it on the hoof, they'll probably tire of the chase.
In the ideal scenario, they take their loot home, to a cache, or to a mates house. If the tracking device works and isn't too far away, you now know their address, or at least somewhere they visit. Now they're in the situation of having someone near their home knowing where they live, and being able to make their lives a misery. Preferably a short misery.**

How often do you get to enjoy knowing the address of someone who's fucked you over, and has no known connection to you for the purpose of a police investigation? Take your tenner back off the corpse.

Ok, that's the awkward situation of getting mugged or attacked close to home. I'm a good 6 months work off getting a tracking device that'd work even over short ranges, so as a plan, that's not operable yet. On to the next scenario...

Getting attacked at home.
Someone here would probably know more than me, but does a burglar let his friends know where to reach him in case of emergencies? 'Oh, if you don't hear from me by 6, I'm out robbing Chades house. Be sure and have the cops come looking for me there...'
I'm betting no. Ideally, anyone breaking into my house would disappear. 'No officer, I'm afraid I've not seen a 6' 2" ex con with a string of crimes on his rap sheet lately. I'm sure you'll be dedicating all your efforts to finding him though.'

Again, I'm a way off being able to carry this out. I lack the appropriate, erm, disposal methods at present. Not enough to dispose of the body, in my book. Got to dispose of it fast (after he stops twitching and isn't much fun anymore) and eliminate as much evidence as possible. Preferably before the morning, which could be tricky. (anyway, that's a whole other thread)

And finally...
Getting attacked far from home.
This differs from the near home attack, as you probably won't have to worry about them finding your place. Also a corpse with a bog standard kitchen knife in the chest is not the easiest crime to solve with no link to the killer. Groups present problems, as was mentioned in other posts. One scumbag turns up dead, and the police find an excuse, or a scapegoat (which is likely two scumbags off the street rather than one), but a group of corpses can't really be ignored. Exotic wepons make you easier to trace, but balance that against being alive in a fight like that. I'd follow steps two and three as before, but worry less about staying away from certain areas than I would otherwise. I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to appease anyone. If someone mugged me, whatever the situation, I'd be about as pissed off as I get. Here I'd go for the attack as soon as I knew the situation was heading that way.
Running or appeasing still work, but there's a chance of a straight conflict not fucking up your life. As mad as I'd be, I'd take the chance and fight.

I was discussing with a friend of mine what would happen if I was mugged, and I talked about the personal defence weapons that one might use. (Homemade pepper spray described in another thread, and a knife***) She was concerned that using these weapons would escalate a situation. Personally, if someone mugs me, I'm doing my best to kill them if I can get away with it. They've fucked with me big time, and they'll live to regret it (for a short while). Anyway, I didn't use those words, but she then asked if I'd have the same reaction if one of my friends was with me. (presumably concerned that I didn't escalate a situation she was in) I answered no, which seemed to satisfy her. I guess she assumed that meant I'd be less likely to act aggressively in that case.
Just for the record, and I'm getting on my soapbox a bit here, but I don't think anyone could do anything more to piss me off than attack one of my friends. I wouldn't react the same way cause I'd be trying out NBKs trick of making a meal out of him with my teeth. And that's to say the least. I'd do my best to get my friends to run while I distracted the attacker(s). As a certain quote goes 'I'm gonna kill them all. That oughta distract them.' And I'd make it hurt.

Now that my (rather lengthy) discorse has passed to the final, and interesting point when you can actually fight attackers, I will make one more point. I think someone mentioned a wide toothy grin. When it all kicks off, start by leading them in. Go to hand over your wallet, phone, raise your hands or whatever. Then smile, as if you've seen something wonderful (or alternatively something nasty behind them to get them to turn if they're actually that stupid) And then whale in however you choose, with whatever weapons you choose, and laugh your head off, like you're having the time of your life. Especially when you're tearing them open. See how many stick around then.

Might take someone unbalanced to carry that off, but I daresay a select few could manage it.


* Bearing: How you carry yourself. Straight spine, shoulders relaxed and slightly back, not slouching.
**Oh yes, finding someone's address. There's other ways to do it of course. My Dads car got stolen once. He'd taken out the fuse for the fuel pump, like he does every night, so it was sat at the end of the road. :D Anyway, The Police came around, and happened to mention the name of the guy who did it. I don't think they meant to.
In the UK, every library keeps an electroral register behind the counter, free to view if you ask for it. (free version of 192.com) He went and got the punks address.
He still annoys the guy from time to time. Tearing up his lawn, dumping trash out front of his house, etc. It's been ten years, and he's moved away, but if he's ever in the area, he still pays a visit, and the silly sod still lives there.
*** Ah, my knife. It's a lovely thing. A folding knife, but I've used it so much that I can snap it open with a flick of my wrist. It has two blades which open out in opposite directions so when you snap it out, it's a two bladed knife that looks remarkably like a batarang. All black, and looks very cool when you snap it open. Not legal, but pretty. Obviously, I only keep it at home to look at it. BTW, a folding knife is legal to carry in the UK, as long as (quotes from offensive weapons act) The sharpened part of the cutting edge of the blade does not exceed beyond three inches. I take this to mean if you have a four inch blade but grind down the bottom inch to a smooth (non-cutting) surface, it's legal. I can see I may have to argue that one in a courtroom. But it is the only weapon we're allowed. That's why swiss army knives aren't illegal yet.

[knowledgehungry]

In general i carry a folding knife (5 inches). I have practiced opening it with one hand quickly. I also occasio9nally carry a hunting knife in my boot... My steel toe boots;). Steel toe boots are an excellent way to make sure someone doesnt get up to fuck with you when you walk away. I've seen a guys face turned to bloody goo by some skinhead he shouldnt have fucked with. Dude lay facefirst in the dirt for 10 minutes with out moving.

[Anthony]

Worth noting that you may carry a folding pocket knife with a blade <3", but it must NOT be lockable. So basically you're not permitted to have a knife with safety features that can prevent you from cutting yourself in normal use...

[Flake2m]

Intresting note: Pre September 11 I walked onto a plane with a pocket knife, security didn't seem to care at all.

A local cop came to our school to give us a talk about being streetwise, He gave us five golden rules which will avoid about 99% of the sex assaults and muggings that occur.
In no particular order;
1. Don't stop;
If some person asks you what the time is/for 50c etc dont even break stride.
2. Dont take shortcuts;
Side alleys and backstreet are where most assaults take place. If you go down these as a shortcut then you could be in someones territory which means you are a target.
3. Dont make eye contact
Making eye contact is all thats needing for someone to oick a fight
4. Dont react;
If your walking along and someone wolf whistles, and makes a smart remark if you react then thats telling them that you are a possible target.
5. Know the area your in;
Know where bus stops, phone boths are and the general latout of the area your in. If you dont then be with someone that does, taking a wrong turn can mean the difference between safety and a body bag.

Normally I dont listen to police, however this cop is respected by my peers because he actually has half a clue about the youth of today. the rules he told us also make sense.

[knowledgehungry]

In the US your allowed to carry a folding knife if the balde is roughly the length of across your palm, yes mine does exceed that, however I dont really care. My main problem is I have a rather aggressive personality, when people talk shit I respond in kind. I've never had any problems when I'm out with my crew, 5 of us is enough to make 10 of them think twice about starting shit. I'm always down for a rumble. If they have a piece its a different story... We almost got jumped by a guy with a gun once, but I saw it in his pocket before he could get us away from the busy street we were on, he was trying to though.

[Adept]

With regards to regular Martial Arts training:

It does not hold to view your regular MA school with such disdain. Truthfully, most people who join a MA school do so only for something to do on a wednesday night, or to get fit, or because their kids do it and it looks like fun.

But in any school you will find the hardcore killers, if you look hard enough and prove yourself to them. People who have dedicated themselves to learning the most effective techniques to defend themselves in any given situation. People who are willing to teach you these same skills.

For example, one of my instructors often sets a scene, gives us an environment, and asks us to react. One time we measured out a toilet block, and asked our students to react to a junkie threatening them with a syringe. After they do their thing, we showed them any thing they did wrong, and how they could have prevented it, and done better. We try and make everything we learn for the purpose of self defence, actually applicable in the real world.

Obviously, this isnt going to wash with the larger customer market required to support the club financially. These people are given watered down versions, more to make them feel good and improve self esteem than really give them a fighting chance in combat. Once they prove they have the dedication and desire to learn for what we would call the right reasons, we teach them. The same holds true for almost any martial arts school of any kind.

With regards to actual street situations;

Most actual street shmucks are easy to spot, at least here in Oz. They hang out in groups, tend to be of an ethnic background, but not always, and all seem to have the same dress code. To be honest, you should be able to tell when a person approaches you with an agenda.

I refuse to interact. If you dont interact with them, it tends to dissuade them from interacting with you.

If interaction is inevitable, then I try every trick in the book to get out of it. As Sun Tzu said, winning 100 battles out of 100 is not a perfect record. Never having to fight at all is.

If I cannot run, and I cannot de-fuse the situation, and combat is inevitable, then as advocated, I take the initative and I strike first. I strike initially for the crucial areas. A shot to the nuts will cripple most males and is easy to execute, a strike to the eyes is going to stop anyone in their tracks. The sternum is one of the easiest bones in the body to break, and breaking it effectively removes someone from the fight. Knees are extremely vulnerable, and thanks to my training, I can smash baseball bats with my shins. Knee joints are easy meat.

Always remember, you are in it to live, not prove a point. Run as soon as you can, against multiple assailants all it takes is one mistake, or one lucky hit, and you are down and out. Get out before that happens.

And remember - Simple things work. If it is hard to learn, and tricky to execute, then chances are you wont be able to use it. Learn things you can ues. The best weapon available to you, the only one they cant ban, is your body. Learn to use it.

[tmp]

Most states in the United States will allow people to carry a gun with a permit.
Unfortunately, I live one the few that doesn't. I defended myself with a handgun
one night outside my residence from a couple of crackheads. The police kicked
in my door, confiscated all my guns(I never got them back), and a judge threw
my ass in jail for it. I've been robbed several times before. After that incident,
being fucked over by robbers, then by the judicial system, I made a couple of
important decisions in my life.

1) Politicians who favor gun control should never be elected or if already
elected, thrown out of office. Furthermore, any politician who passes a goddam
gun control law against ordinary people should be charged, convicted, and
EXECUTED for treason.

2) Anyone who attacks me in the future, will treated as attempting to kill
me. Therefore, I will do anything and everything to kill the son of a bitch !
One less asshole in the world !

If this sounds bitter and extreme, it is ! I'm tired of the violent criminals and
the asshole lawyers/politicians who excuse their behavior towards the rest of us !


Reply to ossassin: What state do you live in ? I live in Maryland where permits are
NOT issued to ordinary people - Only the wealthy and politically connected are allowed(besides the cops).
Maryland penalties: Misdemeanor - 3 Years/$2500 fine for a first offense,
mandatory 1 year for subsequent offenses. This law applies to any form of
open carry, concealed carry, or wearing a handgun.
BTW, my door was kicked in AND a fucking asshole gun-hating judge sent me to jail !

[ossassin]

tmp, anyone 18 or older may possess a handgun, as long as it is easily visible. You only need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Also, if you violate this, they wouldn't raid your house; they would simply fine you. Gun laws or a hobby of mine. :)

Also, in response to the earlier post about knife regulations, I would like to say that I carry a KABAR combat knife with a 7 1/2 inch blade, and it's perfectly legal. The only restriction on knives that I know of is that minors cannot buy knives in the bowie knife category.

[tmp]

ossassin, go to this link:

www.packing.org (http://www.packing.org)

for comprehensive state by state laws on carrying guns.

Not all states, including Maryland, allow open carry. In some states
carrying a gun is outright prohibited. And the worst of them will
imprison the offender with a felony conviction.

[ossassin]

I live in the Midwest where no one cares about that sort of thing. The state laws basically allow anything. It's the federal laws that are the problem. I was actually referring to the federal laws, which is what I thought you meant.

[tmp]

Ossassin, if I seem negative it's because of my personal experience. You're right !
Federal laws don't regulate carrying of firearms at the state level. Ironically, some
states absolutely prohibit concealed carry and don't even regulate open carry.
And then there are the states that are the other way around. Crazy, isn't it ?
I like the model that Vermont, and now Alaska uses - if you can own it, you can
carry it. I believe Vermont has a mandatory 15 year sentence for anyone using
a firearm to commit a violent felony. This is on top of whatever punishment is
handed down for the original crime. This is the way is should be. Punish those who
commit crimes with guns - not us for defending our lives or exercising our rights.

[nbk2000]

There's unintended consequences for "Get Tough" laws.

For instance, I'm currently writing an article for the PDF about swords and spears as weapons for criminals.

Yes, thanks to mandatory sentences for gun use by talk-tough politicos, you too can now have your arms whacked off or foot long blades ran through your guts by a violent criminal that won't get more than a few years for violent assault because he didn't use a gun, just a whole lot of steel, to do the damage.

But that's OK because it's not a gun. ;) :p

No 15 year minimum to worry about when you run 'em through and watch their eyes bug out like prawns! :D

Which would you prefer? A bullet through the brain or a foot of razor sharp steel going through your intestines? :eek:

All in favor of the bullet say "Aye".

Aye!

[xyz]

Have you thought about crossbows or pistol crossbows?

[tmp]

A bullet is quicker than an arrow or a sword. Of course the felons could simply cut
the barrel off a long gun to avoid those pesky state police background checks that
are used for handguns. The bad guys don't care about the laws anyway.
The instant criminal record check doesn't always work either. My chances of
survival are better with a 9mm then a sawed-off 12 gauge !

NBK2000, back in February 2001, 2 murderers in Baltimore, Maryland were
acquitted by so-called juries of their peers. Neither of these assholes used
a gun. One killed a Baltimore City cop by ramming him with a truck. The other
killed a University Of Maryland Dental School student with a knife after the student
pursued the asshole for snatching a fellow student's purse. You talked about these
assholes getting less time for not using a gun but they were outright acquitted.
Maybe I'm a racist, but do you think the acquittals came because both
defendants and the juries that heard their cases were all niggers ?
It seems that, in Baltimore, it really isn't a murder unless a gun is used.

[jackhammer]

Finally,a subject I really am an expert in! Being chemical hobbiest on a forum of chemical experts can be quite dangerous for a fragile ego, but combat (weapons, martial arts, self-defense, etc,) is my life. However, because I have studied these things for so long to reduce it to a single post would be impossible. For those interested in what training would be best for self-defense, I would say a combination of muay thai, jujitsu, and either eagle claw, white crane, white eyebrow, or tiger claw wushu. Basically, the skills needed for combat are grappling, striking, kicking, weapon, joint manipulation, sealing of the breath and/or blood, and nerve striking techniques. Again, because it is impossible to put anything useful in a single post, I was wondering if anyone would be interested in my compiling/writing a combat instructional manual, full of various techniques, anatomical diagrams, information on styles, etc. If so, I would be more than happy in putting together a pdf.

[Pressuretest]

Unfortunately here in the UK with our harsh gun laws and stiff jail terms for carrying such things as knives and cs gas, its a problem for people to feel safe whilst walking the streets in some areas.

I teach self defence and i am often asked about improvised self defence weapons. Heres a few items i suggest carrying so as to stay within UK law.

1. Maglite 6DD torch, quality to use as a baton whilst also useful for shining in eyes in the lead up to a fight.

2. Pocket can of De-Icer, a faceful of this will deter most people and give you time to run.

3. Sharpened metal comb, good for slashing attacks.

4. Tighly rolled magazine or newspaper, thrust into soft body areas.

5. Keychains with large bunch of keys, use as a flail to the facial area.

6. Sharpened pencil or pen, used as a dagger.

I have got to agree with the posts stating that traditional martial arts are not a lot of use in self defence. They are good as a confidence booster and help to keep you fit, but theres too much punching fresh air in most of them and not enough hard sparring.

Mixed martial arts is the only way to go in my opinion, with Brasilian jui-jitsu covering ground fighting, Boxing and Muay Thai addressing the striking areas, and some wrestling helping with throws and clinchs.

[Rhadon]

Jackhammer: If you have the time to do it, go for it! I don't know how well this subject has already been covered in the literature, but remember, scanning a book or parts of it will take considerably less time than writing something of your own :).

Pressuretest: Your post has some good points. What do you think about a mere combination of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai? Will they suffice or will they leave weaknesses in certain areas? If so, can you tell me which? I'm not an expert in mixed martial arts, but I thought that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would cover everything you need for your ground game and Muay Thai would cover striking sufficiently. And although Muay Thai does not teach you as much about the clinch as wrestling, isn't it enough for a street fight? On the street, striking is by far more important than the clinch anyway IMO, or is this a fallacy?

[Pressuretest]

A combination of BJJ and Muay Thai is a lethal combination which as rightly said covers both the ground game and the stand up game. But wrestling with its clinchwork and throws is an important part of street/bar fights.

Usually most fights end up on the floor and the guy with the strongest postion is the one on top. Now the reason most of these fights end up on the floor is that a lot people close the distance and grab hold of the other guy and the fight degenerates into a wrestling match with playground headlocks, headbutts and all those sort of things being attempted.

If you had a good basis in wrestling it would be relatively easy to throw your opponent onto the floor and gain the top position. From where you could proceed to ground and pound him or give him a quick lesson in BJJ through leglocks, armbars, chokes or what ever submission takes your fancy.

Streetfights where you have space in which to move about are where Muay Thai comes into its own, with a few punishing leg kicks your opponent is either on the floor or hobbling slowly about. Then its a matter of taking him apart with punchs, elbow strikes and kicks or even with the neck clinch and some hard knees to the head.

Weatern boxing is also useful as it emphasizes body and head movement which when coupled with good footwork enables you to hit and not be hit. Muay Thai is more rigid in its style and is good when attacking in a stong dominant manner but loses out to boxing when there are mutltiple attackers due to the good movement and evasive skills of the boxer.

So really you need the groundwork of BJJ, the clinchs and throws of wrestling and the striking and movement of both Muay Thai and Western boxing.


At my gym we run a professional MMA team and we train in as many areas as we can with Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling - both freestyle and Greco Roman, and BJJ. But we will take and learn as our own any skill from any martial art if its useful in a real combat setting.

We also train weights and cardio on a regular basis as fitness and strength are also very important in any struggle. It doesnt matter if you are the worlds best at all of the above Martial Arts if you run out of breath after a few minutes struggling with a strong oppoent you are finished.

And i have to add that any training for combat is better than none, even if its a self defence class as it will help people react and think, rather than freeze as most do when threatened or attacked.
If you fight against the odds there is a chance of victory, but if you don't fight there is no chance.

I hope that has answered the points Rhadon raised.

[Rhadon]

Yes, it did. Your post was an interesting read, thanks for taking your time.

[bigshoe]

This whole self defence forum is quite disturbing,
You all talk about the use of hand guns, knives, spays and everything in between.
Alot of you have given the idea that attacking the oppenent is the right thing to do if they have given the suggustion of robbing you or inflicting personal pain (to you or others),
That is all bullshit! I have studying karate for three years, and NO i dont think of my self as some strong ass kicking rambo, and YES I would like to kick the crap out of those wanna be homeboys.
BUT! What you all DONT realise is that trying to engage combat with anyone is the WORST THING THAT YOU CAN DO!!
To begin with I would like to say to most of you who took time to type up those storys of beating some guy out in the street about WHAT YOU WHOULD DO in that situation is all just a pile of crap:-
1)If you guys have not figured out already is that EVERYTHING NEVER GOES TO PLAN then you can kiss your ass good bye no matter how much training you have in anything.

2)WEAPONS- are the WORST thing you can use in a fight, besides the conclusion that u could get thrown in jail or worst kill someone (and if you think you wouldnt care you are obviouslly going hide it, have no idea or are ALOT WORST THEN THEM). But more importantally weapons NEVER show up at the right time and when they do you will find only focus is applied to the limb holding the weapon which gives a MASSIVE DISADVANTAGE if you are the welder. But more importantally summoning the psychological power to use a weapon is the hardest (and if you find you can do it with ease on a living breathing human-being than i think you should stop attacking your furture self because in a few years time YOU WILL BE HIM!)

3) These "what I would do" storys are all posion, if you lot think like this than you are all in a very dangerous state of mind to use combat effectivally.

Ok so know you are thinking "yer sum of dat dribble sounds right, but wat am i suppose to do know?" well follow this list and you cant go wrong! :-
1) Be fit! If you need to get into a fight or better still get away then you will thank God u were (also has other obvious advantages as in health).
2) GET RID OF THOSE WEAPONS!:- Need I say more?
3) Destory the attacker Psychologically if confronted:- Remind him that what he is doing is very dumb in a cool collected voice. Tell him that there is better things to do than robbing people. This is the BEST advantage because if he continues he is not going to expect the guy that tryed to help him in a positive way to poke him in the eyes and lift him of the ground with his knee (hurts thinking about it, ouch!) then to run like hell.
If he/she is a junkie/drunk remind them in a simple and quick sentence that there is some money under that rock over there and point them away from you.
4)Get your hands on a book called "the SAS self-defence handbook" by our good friend John "Lofty" Wiseman. Half the book is the Psychological side the other some good practical techniques (this isn't an ad, I think that guy comes out with some pretty good books)

Well thats all I really have to say.
Of course there are the obvious other things I didnt mention as some ppl fielded, like looking confident and not making eyecontact. But I just wanted to get some of you thinking straight because most of the stuff I just read was all about "getting even" through fairly horrific methods.

Remember that we are all human beings and the last resort is violence.

But most importantally its not what you say you will do before a fight, it is what you do after it (or after not doing it)

P.S. if you can't control you own rage you can forget controlling a fight, and if you can and let it run wild then YOU are the crazy one!

[kingspaz]

'Remember that we are all human beings and the last resort is violence.'

answer me this: why has violence been resorted to so often in histroy? because we are all stupid human beings who like to kill each other? no, of course not. the answer is because violence solves all disputes no matter how great or small the losses/injuries incurred. survival of the fittest.

as for books, i'd have to recommend the US marines close combat manual available on the ftp and possibly still on the web.

[bigshoe]

I know what you are trying to say. But in all in all, if you contiue to look at life in a lessend view then what is the point off living?
I am not trying to make a debate about this I am just trying to tell you what does work on the streets. because what you dont know is that most robbers are already scared out of there wits and really dont what to rob you. The idea some one made about leading them of is good. But if this punk is persistant teach them a lesson.
I dont go around thinking about the world as a garden of roses and yes i do understand that there is scum out there. But please use you head before your fists
Of course I understand that you all will try to make somthing out of my methods. But these work to good effect, take it or leave it.

[NightStalker]

Modern humans are the result of millions of years of inter-personal violence amoung our ancestors.

The weak and timid were killed or raped by the stronger and more violent, resulting in natural selection of violence as a dominant trait for the species.

Accept this fact and work with your human nature, not against it.

Training is important. A man with a weapon, but no training, is likely more of a danger to himself than others.

But a man who is trained in his weapon, and psychologically willing to kill, has a huge advantage over a man who is psychologically just as willing to kill but who is without a weapon.

Plenty of psychos out there are willing to kill you with a brick, bat, bottle, pipe, etc.

While you're trying to talk sense into some scumbag sub-humanoid, its brain is only concerned with how much crack it can buy with the nice shoes it'll be pulling off your dead feet.

Didn't you learn anything in kindergarten?

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Your words will have no effect on someone intent on robbing you, otherwise they wouldn't be robbing you in the first place, now would they?

Street corner robbery isn't the crime of criminal geniuses, rather the low-browed retards of the criminal class. If this retard had enough sense that you're reminder of the penal code would have any affect on him, he wouldn't be robbing you for your mobile and maxed out credit cards, eh? ;)

But, if you pull out 8" of razor-sharp disembowling steel, you'll see a very rapid change of heart in all but the suicidally inclined.

Even the most dumb-fuck crackhead can figure out that the crack isn't going to do him any good if he doesn't have any hands or lungs to smoke it with, and he wouldn't have either of these if you puncture his lungs and lop off his hands with your blade.

Criminals do crimes because it's profitable for them (or at least they think it will be). When the profit of robbing you is radically skewed towards death and dismemberment (on their part) when you (the "sheep") pull out your weapon, the crime is no longer worth committing. :p

NBK's RTPB "Always have a weapon on you" is sound advice for urbanites. You do what you have to to survive. If your country restricts certain weapons, find something that's not a weapon, but useable as one anyways.

Get creative. You're a member of an IMPROVISED WEAPONS FORUM!

IMPROVISE!

If you can outrun the problem, good for you. Others may not have that option. What if you're pushing the stroller with your child in it when a member of the economically-underprivileged class approaches you and kindly asks you to donate your wallet and mobile to his charity of choice?

Hand it over? Depends. Might not do you any good, anyways. But, if you pull out your wallet and have a push dagger in the same hand to give it to him...STABSTABSTAB!!!

Cretin gets ventilated, you take off with junior in your arms, and the scumbag doesn't have the ability to chase you since you've punctured his neck numerous times, making breathing rather difficult on his part. :D

Group of scum? Tactics dictate your choice. In all cases, your weapon stays hidden until it's time to use it, then it's pulled out and used lightning fast before they can react to it.

You MUST approach any situation involving a group of attackers as being life-or-death. The group mentality enables killing through diffusion of responsibility and peer pressure. The ONLY way to deal with such an event is to unleash your inner Hannibal and just slaughter the first person you get your hands on. If you make it messy and noisy enough, it'll put fright into the others long enough for you to escape.

Trying to talk your way out of the situation will just escalate it against you because you'll show how weak you really are (the powerful don't negotiate, they dictate), and weakness invites attack, since prey is weaker than the predator.

This is Natures law.

But if the prey turns out to be an even more dangerous predator, the pack will scatter. Imagine a pack of hyenas attacking a Lion that they mistook for a gazelle. The Lion is going to tear the first hyena or two to shreds! Think the others are going to hang around for their turn? Hell NO!

Bigshoe, your pacifistic attitude will likely result in your "big shoe" being stuffed into your "small hole". ;)

Think like a predator, not like prey.

[jelly]

Nightstalker is right with StabStabStab as the "ultima ratio", if you are in a very dangerous situation.
But do you want to kill all the "What are you looking at!" fuckers/thugs in a pub and then offer your
ass in a jail for many years?

If you want to read books about "real" streetfighting, grab the stuff written by Geoff Thompson
(e.g. "Dead Or Alive - The Choice Is Yours" and "Bouncer - Watch Your Back"
(he worked as a doorman and bouncer for many years) and Marc "Animal" Young
(his book "Cheap Shots, Ambushes And Other Lessons" is on the FTP" :)).

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_real_self_defence.htm

[Gsus]

I live in PEckham, London.
Apparently, 59% of the worlds biggest city's gun crime happens here.
I get the train to school and everynow and then i see dodgy people hanging about.
I usually go for the pyshcological nervous twitch kinda thing, (if i do this weird thing with either i eye i look like a pyscho) or just cross the street.
If your stereotypical, i'm quite nerdy. I like to read and do loadsa shit with computers, but i also play basketball a bit and am tall for my age.
I'm not what you would call strong, but i can chuck most of my mates hard at anything in the vicinity with ease. Use your weight!
I'm also planning on making some nunchucks this weekend...any tips?

[jackhammer]

I'm also planning on making some nunchucks this weekend...any tips?A little story before I answer your question. I went to my first martial arts teacher when I was 5. My father asked, among other questions, what my teacher would do if approached by a man with nunchucks. He replied, "stand back and wait for him to kill himself." Anyway, there are two ways you can do this. The first is to spend a lot of time and money with rattan wood, ball bearings, a good chain, blah blah blah. Or, you can make a perfectly acceptable pair of "dumbchucks" (called so because of the result when you end up hitting yourself with them) with two apprx foot long regular plumbing type pipes, at the ends of which you secure a apprx foot long chain by cement or epoxy. These things will literally split skulls. Make sure yours isn't one of them.

[Crash]

I'd have to reccomend Krav Maga, I cant beileve it has'nt already been mentioned, it was put together from various fighting styles under contract for the Israeli Army.

From; Krav Maga Inc. (http://www.kravmagainc.com/benefits.html)

Krav Maga is a very modern and innovative style of Self-Defense. This system has been continually refined and developed in light of actual modern combat and Self-Defense experience. Practitioners of the style incorporate new lessons learned as to improve the styles techniques as well as encouraging individual student creativity.

Krav Maga was developed for use in the street.
Therefore there are no rules. When an individual is attacked in the street there is no way to know how many opponents or weapons you might encounter, therefore Krav Maga training is based on a system without rules. In an assault situation an individual has the right to use whatever techniques necessary to defend themselves. For this reason there are no competitive tournaments or katas in Krav Maga. The techniques practiced in the style must be in terms of actual defense situations. In fact students of Krav Maga are taught the vulnerable points i.e. back of neck, temples, eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc. on the human body and are encouraged to use this knowledge to fend off an attack."

You have to be 18 to take the classes in most states, but at least you dont have to join the army to get military training.

More info;

http://www.kravmaga.com
http://www.krav-maga.com
http://www.kravmagainc.com

As for weapons of self defense, I'd say stick to using legal weapons and fighting dirty, do you really want to risk everything you do in your home related to E&W being exposed after you stick some scum with a needle, or shooting him/her with an illegal firearm? Of course not. Buy some effective pepper spray, or a stun gun and sucker punch the hell out of him while hes incapacitated.

And if hes got a gun and its pointed at you, unless you can remove a firearm, zero it at his ead, and pull the trigger before he has a chance to move his index finger a few millimeters.Just give him your wallet. $40, and a $10 leather wallet arent worth a bullet and media exposure if you ask me.

[Bigfoot]

In my previous life, in the days before metal detectors at public school doors....
A handful of pricks used to pick on me in elementary. My 12th-grade understanding of science did me no good on a 5th grade playground. But when I "let slip" to a classmate that I carried a pocketknife, and showed it to him, my fortunes in prison yard improved greatly.
MORAL:When your intellect doesn't make 'em respect you, your weapon just might!

BTW, I never had to pull my blade in a "situation."

[jackhammer]

Crash, have you actually taken Krav Maga? I actually studied with various top instructors, including Imi himself once, when stationed in Israel. Though the system has been slightly modified on its trip here and to civilians, it was designed primarily for threat against armed assault. At a basic level, it involves a redirection of an opponents attack, with a simultaneous strike. Higher levels include application of things like the garrot or application of chemical soaked rag to the mouth, and how to press near the neck just so, angling the neck and head so that the person aids in their own suffocation. The fact that it was designed for military use does not necessarily mean it is great for street fighting. I'm not saying it won't work, because it has a plether of great techniques, but I would not use it as a primary study of unarmed combat. If you wan't to learn about pressure point fighting, look into chin na, sub level four kenpo, kyokushin karate, or something like that. I'm presently studying with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, who excels in chin na.

[Dave the Rave]

The "commercial" Kravmaga isn´t so good as the military kind, which includes some awesome tecnics to quickly kill, disarm, take down and knock out people with no efforts. One time I saw an 45 kilos woman simply disarm and knockout an agressor with, at least 120 kilos.

He came from behind her and, with an gun, ordered her to stop. The next thing he can remember is her foot at his adam´s aplle and then the ligths on the cellar and his arm broke in 3 pieces... It was realy impressive, not even the black & whites can trust that she made it.

There is an "oficial" KM site: www.kravmaga.com/inteactive/ with some cool videos, but I think tha an search through www.bushido.com will give some better and/or underground sources.

About military combat tecnics, have ever any member, especialy the russian ones, rear about the "system" ? It´s suposed to be created by SPETZNAS or some other russian special force, as the ultimate combat tecnic, betther than aikido, KM, kempo or jet kune do.

In fact, it may be an combination of all those tecnics, plus some special forces figth classes around the world. I´ve done an search trhough Google but nothing was find.

Any ideas ?

[jackhammer]

Dave, for the most part the military unarmed combat systems will never be as complete as traditional martial arts. They are designed to be crash courses for elite units. While they do have plenty of killing techniques, the goal is more to get the soldier into a "killing" frame of mind. For the most part, the only time soldiers use their hands is in the movies. The U.S. military is constantly hiring outside help to develop programs (like S.C.A.R.S. or SAFTA), but these systems are not as thorough or as complete as their makers would have you believe.

[Zoth]

Of course Systema is going to be billed as the mack by its own marketing department.

It looks pretty good to me; I like the emphasis on evasion and fluidity. I think it would take a long while to learn.

Whether it will stand the test of time I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised to see this art join the JKD "party" soon.

My advice: Don't do weird, flavor-of-the-month stuff for self defense. Do simple, tried-and-true stuff like Kali, Muay Thai and Jujitsu. Even Karate, though reviled these days, can be really good if it's done with the proper violence and aggression.

[Dave the Rave]

In Mather of fact, I´ve done KM some time ago, as well as Kung fu and JKD, but the idea of the systema, as an traditional yet inovative way of combat give me a tease.

Anyway, I won´t have the option to chose betwin the systema or karate, because there in no school at my Country that teaches the systema.

Thanks for the advice, but what is Kali ???

[jackhammer]

Thanks for the advice, but what is Kali ???
Kali, Escrima, and Arnis are all Filipino martial arts which deal mainly with sticks and daggers. Some styles include unarmed techniques, some don't. If you're looking into being a serious well-rounded fighter, they are worth trying, but if you want the most effecient way to become good, I wouldn't spend my time with those styles.

[Zoth]

Kali, Escrima, and Arnis are all Filipino martial arts which deal mainly with sticks and daggers. Some styles include unarmed techniques, some don't. If you're looking into being a serious well-rounded fighter, they are worth trying, but if you want the most effecient way to become good, I wouldn't spend my time with those styles.


Actually, I must disagree with this. There's a common misconception that Kali deals almost exclusively with weapons, but it's not true; the sticks and daggers are there as training devices as much as anything else. The techniques that the FMA teach can be applied to weapons as well as to empty hand.

Since it's more important to learn weapon self-defense first, and since FMA weapons are quicker to learn than any other style, I think they do have their priorities straight here. All styles of FMA can be applied to unarmed defense. I am not Captain Kickass but I have a good number of years of experience with various Kali systems; the above is true for all of them.

As with any style an incompetent instructor is going to do more harm than good.

[jackhammer]

Actually, I must disagree with this. There's a common misconception that Kali deals almost exclusively with weapons, but it's not true; the sticks and daggers are there as training devices as much as anything else. My first kali instructor, as well as not knowing any english, knew almost as much about unarmed fighting. It simply was not in any of the systems he had learned. There are a lot of asian countries that have been heavily influenced by traditional martial arts, but so sporadically and so varyingly that the developed systems lacked any clear focus. Filipine martial arts developed in a very rough (at the time) part of the world, and knives and sticks were plentiful and easily obtainable, as well as being more threatening than a fist. So systems were generally influenced by brawls rather than a more chinese approach; e.g. watching animals fight or passsing down movements in complex sequences. Because of this lack of martial identity, it makes it very hard for even the experts to agree on the history and/or emphasis or even definitions associated with their styles. The techniques that the FMA teach can be applied to weapons as well as to empty hand. Not always. Many stikes that may be incapacitating or even fatal with a knife or stick may do much less damage without. But it's a sound enough principle (and one that Morihei Ueshiba believed in).
Since it's more important to learn weapon self-defense first, and since FMA weapons are quicker to learn than any other style, I think they do have their priorities straight here. Why would you say weapon styles are easier? Adding a weapon often makes your movements more complex. All styles of FMA can be applied to unarmed defense. I am not Captain Kickass but I have a good number of years of experience with various Kali systems; the above is true for all of them.

As with any style an incompetent instructor is going to do more harm than good. Yes.

[Zoth]

Why would you say weapon styles are easier? Adding a weapon often makes your movements more complex.

I did not say that weapon styles are easier, I said that the way FMA styles teach weapons, the weapons are easier to pick up than any other style I have seen with the exception of military combatives (which are often FMA derived anyway.)

The way the weapons are systematized with numbers makes them very quick and easy to learn. Coincidentally, the footwork is numbered too with the same numbers per angle, which adds another layer of easiness.

You might be interested in a number of historical books by Mark V. Wiley about the martial culture of the Islands. There is actually quite a bit known about the 'way it was.'

You say "Not always," but nothing is ever "always." You can apply the same block-and-counters to empty hand that you can to sticks and knives. It's just oh so much more important to be quick and precise...

Oftentimes FMA instructors, especially the traditional people, hold a lot of stuff back until they know you real well. It may have been that if you'd thrown a punch at your old instructor you'd have been on the ground faster than you could say "scat..."

[Dave the Rave]

I think that ad an weapon to the training increases the dificulty, but also increases the concentration on that specific move. My kungfu style is one on the most prolixes in weapon kinds, one must learn at least 7 weapons per belt, but just because of this diversification of moves the training becomes more intense and mind consentrator (sp ?) than an training only based on Katas or kick moves.

Another point that must be taken is that when an military intructor teaches an move, he is only thinking on the lethal point of view, so he discards almost all the non lethal moves. He also relly on the most simply yet mortal weapon moves which helps to mantain the training more easily absorbed.

[buzzd]

What are you guys doing wrong?

I live in a town with an obnoxiously high murder rate. More than often, I am by myself. I personally know plenty of people who have been severely beat, one of whom was put into a coma, airlifted, etc. When I do go out, it is at night. I have never, ever been involved in a serious confrontation, and i'm out at least 4 times a week. Are you guys walking around with signs that say 'I'm weak, beat me up'? Whats going on? You mind your own business, they mind theirs. Of course people will ask/beg/threaten for money; you tell them off, and keep moving. Why do you even have these problems?

[tmp]

Buzzrd, where do you live ? I think you've been lucky and that you may be
statistically overdue for bad encounter. Sometimes the scum can vary from
block to block. You never know. Panhandlers, even agressive panhandlers,
are usually just a pain in the ass. But on occasion, a psycopath crops up
who will hurt people for any reason - real or imagined. Be careful !

[senom]

another weapon that can be easily made/carried/accessed/used is your master card/visa/gift/NRA card to local store.

that lovely rugged plastic with a little coxing from a dremil tool or sandpaper can have quite an edge on it. (just make sure it's not one you use often, casheers don't like that)

what's atractive to me is the fact that it's something that's always in your wallet, in your pocket. just slide the card into your wallet (sharp edge in first) and it'll always be there. (another plus: i don't think police would rifle through your plastic...)

so when some punk asks for your wallet, the card's in the perfect position, just slip your thumb in and pull it out, then procede to "deface" his face, neck, whatever looks good.

[redbull]

Wow, for explosives and Weapons people Im suprised Redbull's the only one wearing a
gun? Redbull's been wearing a pistol for 4 years now. Redbull lives in the US and has a
permitto carry a firearm. (They are only good in certain states, you can get them in
the majority of places but some states don't issue permits.) He carries his gun all the
time even in places like Washington D.C. where it's illegial. He's pulled it out twice
so far in street confrontations and both times the punk bitches that want to start
trouble run off after seeing the 9mm under the shirt. Redbull's never going to stop
carrying his piece, permits or not. He's NEVER been searched, ever, and the pistol
has been pretty noticable through the shirt. In the US the cops will approach you
and ask what your doing with a gun and then you tell them you have a permit and you
have to show it. It's an ID card with your picture and then they say ok, have a nice
day and walk off. Redbull's show it preemptively to cops when dealing with them
on an unrelated matter just so they dont get nervous if they find out about it.
But if Redbull lived in another country where carrying a pistol was illegial Redbull would
carry a gun anyway. If pistols are banned in your country and you cant even get a
black powder pistol; get one from someone in the US. Redbull would mail a black
powder pistol to anyone anywhere, dissasembled and with junk parts to confuse
customs. Making your own lead ball ammo and black powder makes the black powder
pistol a "sustainable" resource in bullshit countries that ban guns. English folks really
need to start getting American black powder pistols and fuck the police. If you're in
this forum you should be a criminal anyway ;) so in short, fuck the bullshit, carry a
handgun anyway, fire your first shot near them if you even have to shoot it off,
don't worry about cops...

Oh and so Redbull can be the envy of everyone... He's carrying a Sig Sauer 226 9mm
with four 15 round mags and one in the pipe for a grand total of 61 hollowpoints of fun!
-- AND it's legal -- snicker, snicker, snicker

[knowledgehungry]

9mm... I'd be more impressed with .45ACP. Oh well to each his own, I'm getting a blackpowder pistol in a month or so soon as I turn 18, then life will be fun ;).

[nbk2000]

Redbull is armed with a gun and can't put together a proper sentence.

:rolleyes:

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Isotoxin]

Improvised be damned! If you live in the USA then get a 1911 or some nice big gun, a smart carry rig and a CCW permit. Then you need to train, know the laws, shoot well, work on the draw, train with a sim. There is nothing better on the street then a .45 handgun leveled at someones chest.

read packing.org and thehighroad.org for good gun and CCW info

[tdog49]

NBK,
Sad thing is, your comment also describes most of our military.....

Isotoxin,
Damn straight. Any defense minded person is decieving themselves and setting themselves up for failure if they do not take advantage of this opportunity where it is allowed. My preference is the 9mm simply because it is so easy to shoot....

[raptor1956]

Countries that allegedly have strict firearms laws still have firearms around. The only things that weapons bans control are the relative prices. Even here in Oz, where everything other than a plastic spoon is virtually illegal, you can go out any day of the week and get any firearm from a bolt action .22 to a Steyr AUG if you know where to look and have enough cash. Bottom line is: if you truly want to defend yourself... you will! BTW Redbull, I'm not that sure that everyone on this forum is a criminal. Some of us may just want to sock away info for the day we need it, or have a genuine love of knowledge.

[nbk2000]

Eventually it'll come to where ANYONE with a gun, regardless of reason or intent, will be a criminal, so get into the criminal frame of mind of when it comes to guns.

[doggie]

My favorite anti mugging device was a simple card with a phone number on it.

used 3 of them so far, and was forced to use a 9mm darringer on the 4th.

I was approached by 3 guys while walking to my car in Miami and one opens his jacket showing his pistol.
"gimme your money."
Look him up and down, "who are you with?" as cooly sa possible.
"what? with them..." he implies the other two watching out for cops.
"you arent protected? are you fucking kidding me? what part of town you from?"
"this aint fucking 20 questions! gimme your money"
"Listen to me carefully, do you plan on dying slowly with no one but the snakes and gators in the glades to hear, or do you want to learn how to start making big money?"
He looks me up and down "I just want the fucking money"
I pull out my card and a FAKE $100 bill and hand him the card and the bill.
Step close to him and said "you better fucking call me, cause if I gotta send some boys to find you for my money, the glades will run red"

He took the card and fake cash and gladly got the fuck out of there... too bad the number was a phone test number and is always busy.

But it takes 2 minutes to pull a con like that, versus a lot of legal issues or maybe ending up dead.

worse case senario: they call your bluff and you have to fight your way out, but they will be scared off the streets for a bit , just in case.

(ps, improvised weapon: leather jacket cuff with lead sewn into them and a loop for a finger to fit in sewn into the inside of the cuff. makeshift brassknuckles. make sure your sleeves are long enough)
I had kevlar sewn into the liner of my jacket, not for bullets, but to make it a lot less likely that a blade swipe will open me up.