New OICW idea/Hybrid weapon

[-=HeX=-]

Hi guys, I know that there is already an OICW thread in existance, however seeing as it is on the last page and I dont want to commit yet another bout of necromancy... I ended up starting this thread. Sorry if I am breaking the rules or anything, I apologise in advance!

This is an idea for a new OICW idea that has been rattling arroung my head for quite some time. If you dont know what an OICW is, then Google is you best friend!

My idea revolves around two interesting ideas of weapons: the Gyrojet, and the Coil or Gauss gun. Each are not used in the field for various reasons, however in a combo weapon it is very practical and there are many possibilities!

Firstly, the Gyrojet. There was a member who suggested using a shotgun round to both propell and ignite the Gyro round. (see pic)

Well, this removes the problems of ignition, bad close up velocity, and simplicity of use, no fancy ignition systems. So if a Saiga 5.12k was moddeled to fire this kind of round, you would have a vey powerful weapon to work off!

However, it would have recoil, and it would not be silent. Also, I am not a gunsmith, nor am I very knowlegeable about the workings of firearms, so could someone please tel me if it would be workable or safe?

Now: the coilgun http://www.instructables.com/id/Coilgun-Handgun go there to find a good coil gun plan, I do not theink it would be too dificult to add a clip, make it semi/fully automatic and have a solenoid controlled breech feed-ing mech. Also, one would replace the soda straw one, and add a removable and rechargeable battery pack.

Coil guns are not to hard to make, I have made one and it was fairly easy to build, and it works! However, its ergonomics are shite, it is large and bulky and its batteries like to fall out. Thats not to mention its long load/charge time, but it is powerful (53 caps in paralell).

Maybe we should use a multistage coilgun for additional range/ power with the subsequent coils optically triggered, however, that adds complications, and bulk, and does not KISS. The coilgun would be bullpup style, with a sten style mag (rear mounted)
(see pic)

The coilgun would be mounted under the Saiga (coilgun is like a Streyr Aug) so it acts as a foregrips. The coilgun would have extra capbanks (in the stock of the Saiga, which was modified to incorporate them) to allow a faster rate of fire.

In front of the 'foregrips' there would be a 'picatinny rail' (sp?) to allow oneto clip on extra weapons/ utilities. Here are a few:

-Powerlet propelled grenade launcher (search for thread)
-IR illuminator for night combat
-A 12 gauge solonoid fired, short barreled, semi auto, shotgun with a 4 round mag.
-Anything you can imagine!

This would the have a Night Site added to it, and voila- OICW!!!

Also: Mr Cool: IIRC You have both built a coilgun and Gyro rounds, and fired them, what is your opinion on the practicality?

Amachinist: You proposed the Shotgun fired rocket idea, do you have any ideas/theorys?

Jacks Complete; You seem to be the forums firearms expert, do you have any ideas/input/criticisms, your input is valued!

[sparkchaser]

The only problems that I can see with the Gyrojet cartridge concept you refer to;

1) Initial stabilization. As the round exits the barrel, it will be inherently unstable until the jets kick on and impart spin. Once the jets kick, the round would fly off in whichever direction it was oriented in. This could be countered by using angled grooves in the round's point itself, similar to a "rifled" shotgun round, but these grooves would create instability as the round went supersonic after the jets kicked on. You could use expanding fins similar to the shotgun grenade designed for the AA-12 automatic shotgun, but that would require some serious machining skill, and negates the concept of the gyrojet completely. I think that this concept would be better used in the high impulse rocket concept presented by NBK2000 awhile back.

2) Cartridge length. The round itself would need to be relatively long, in my estimation, and wouldn't fit in the chamber of a standard shotgun, let alone a magazine. A magazine sized to fit something this big would be a pain to use. The magazine for a standard Saiga 12 is unwieldy and difficult to use and it only carries 23/4 " shells.

This could all be countered by creating a round that would ignite while still in the barrel after firing, but I would think that it would be a tall order for your average home gunsmith/machinist/chemist.

[-=HeX=-]

I understand what you are saying, but in my idea the rocket is ignited by the burning DBSP as it is propelled down the barrel, and the barrel is rifled like a MLRS projectile- a stud in groove- to initially stabilise it before the rockets canted ports cause enough spin to self stabilize.

The round would be as big as an Estes engine so the mag wouldn't be too bulky, and the chamber and feed would be appropriately modded to feed the round. The machining would be a bitch though, I agree.

Any thoughts on the gyro propellant though?

[sparkchaser]

O.k. I see. If you're planning Estes size, you may as well go with Estes motors! I'm thinking that stage motors would work best since there're no delay or ejection charges, just straight propellant, and the formulation's done already. Knock out the nozzle clay and repack into casing of your choice, add nozzles and viola!

As for lugs, make sure they're round and hardened. Very hardened. If your lugs flatten and deform while passing down the barrel you run into the same problem as the grooves in the nose. Instability either from supersonic shockwaves or because the spin imparted by the jets overtakes the spin caused by the action of the lugs' flat spot in the slipstream, causing a localized low pressure spot that would pull in a strange tangent. Also make sure that the lugs are behind the center of pressure to begin with.

Nozzles will be tough in a case that size, but I'm sure you can figure that little bit out. One thing to think of will be that the porpellant grain may have a problem with crumbling from the shock of firing, not to mention the hot gasses slamming in from the DB. Maybe a nitrocellulose lacquer mixed in sparingly as an adhesive might help keep it intact and not overpressure the case.

[HolyHair]

Why don't you try replacing the gyro round with a hyper velocity rocket?

[-=HeX=-]

Sparkchaser: an Estes Rocket engine is useless for horizontal trajectories. Thats because of too low impulse created.

I have considered the HVR system but I believe that the sonic boom would be a bad thing. Good point about the luis though.

I visualise an AN/ Al/ C/ AMMONIUM DICHROMATE/ POLYESTER RESIN propellant as being the one. Has anybody tried it out, IIRC Alen invented it.

[-=HeX=-]

I have done a lot of rethinking about the gyrojet/saiga part of my system. Having spoken recently to a soldier who had used the sagia shotgun in training exercises, I have decided to not use it as the gyrojet launcher.

According to him the sagia shotgun is too cumbersome for additional attachments and it has a crap clip. It is too bulky. Also, apparently it weighs a ton (metaphorically).

Also, I am having doubts as to the usefullness of the coilgun part. I know that it is silent and has almost no firing signature, but will it penetrate pig vests?

Could a shotgun be made in the style of a sten gun? Or is the open bolt and blowback design unsuitable?

[a3990918]

The only problems that I can see with the Gyrojet cartridge concept you refer to;

1) Initial stabilization. As the round exits the barrel, it will be inherently unstable until the jets kick on and impart spin. Once the jets kick, the round would fly off in whichever direction it was oriented in. This could be countered by using angled grooves in the round's point itself, similar to a "rifled" shotgun round, but these grooves would create instability as the round went supersonic after the jets kicked on. You could use expanding fins similar to the shotgun grenade designed for the AA-12 automatic shotgun, but that would require some serious machining skill, and negates the concept of the gyrojet completely. I think that this concept would be better used in the high impulse rocket concept presented by NBK2000 awhile back.

This could all be countered by creating a round that would ignite while still in the barrel after firing, but I would think that it would be a tall order for your average home gunsmith/machinist/chemist.

Would the use of Sabots and a lightly rifled barrel solve the problem or, as usual, am I missing the point? :confused:

[sparkchaser]

Hmmmm...quite an interesting thought a3990918. That's definately not a direction I would've thought of. I don't know if the sabot would be able to grip the round well enough to give a usefull spin, but it is a thought!

Maybe lugs from the sabot could fit into recesses in the round just tightly enough for a good torsional grip and then when the sabot separates, it takes the lugs with it leaving no drag intucing projections. Use a good PTFN sabot jacket with metalic lugs cast in on the projectile side and make the whole package a couple of thousandths of an inch (or tenths of a millimeter) bigger than the rifled bore.

Might take some experimenting to get the aerodynamics right so that there aren't strange low pressure areas caused by the recesses on the round, but I think it might be easier to figure out than if there were projections hangin' out in the slipstream.

[a3990918]

Hmmmm...quite an interesting thought a3990918. That's definately not a direction I would've thought of. I don't know if the sabot would be able to grip the round well enough to give a usefull spin, but it is a thought!


Quite to the contrary, sabots have been in use for a long time (ie. a .50 caliber weapon firing a .30cal projectile to acheive super high muzzle velocities)

http://rapidshare.com/files/99585061/.50_Sabot_Info.rar.html

Another train of though might be the use of rotating bands, ala Artillery, Naval gun etc projectiles. Or even reviving the old squeeze bore technology. High FPS at muzzle, significant spin until jets fire etc... :cool:

[EOD]

The Gyrojet idea was tried in the 60s and din't work so well.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg172-e.htm

During the early sixties a small company MB Associates, founded by Robert Maynard and Arthur Bill, brought up a new weapon that was intended to revolutionize the world of small arms. Known as Gyrojet, it was sort of hand-held, multi-shot rocket launcher. It was advertised as a silent and capable to fire under-water, but in real life Gyrojet weapons turned out to be extremely unreliable and dramatically inaccurate; also, these weapons were rather ineffective at point-black distances, gaining its full power only at ranges of about 40-60 meters (yards). Few of the Gyrojet "pistols" made its way to the jungles of Vietnam in the hands of US military officers, who bought them at their own funds, but no successful reports ever appeared, and by late sixties the Gyrojet project was doomed.

[amachinist]

The round is based upon the old military rocket assisted howitzer round.

Case: 25mm flare case long type ~4.0"
Case modification: Patterned after 40mm grenade
Sabot housing: Patterned after 1970's style 12ga 500 gr slug (rapidly banned)
Rocket: Este's style with secondary primer and delay charge to ignite propellant

Desired function:
30" rifled barrel a muzzle velocity of 700-900 ft/sec.
Propellant initiation 48 - 70" after exiting muzzle
Effective range 2,000 yards
Armor piercing capability

Rifle construction: Patterned after Maadi-Griffin.

Will attempt to post cross sectional sketchs of round when time permits.

[Jacks Complete]

The coil-gun pat of this is pretty useless unless you are simply trying to get around the law. Swap it for a high capacity moderated short barrelled .22 built into the grip. Yes, it won't be accurate, but you've got your "super-gun" for long range armour penetration. Up close, multiple low powered shots will suppress, then you end it with the "main gun".

Getting something like the gyrojet to work would be awesome. Yes, there would be a sonic boom. You'll hopefully be pushing Mach 5 with your projectiles. If you can get it launched at M1.5 from your "rifle" or whatever, then great. Cap it with a tungsten carbide tip, and you'll be punching through pretty much anything you can hit. Of course, the accu5racy is likely to be shite, but that's where a seeker head comes in. Think micro- and nano-electronics.

[Woland_91]

This sounds to me as someone trying to jam an armour-piercing rocket laucher on a battlerifle with a grenade laucher. Which is a good idea, really. The only problem I see is that your gauss gun doesn't work as a battlerifle, or a carbine. It is more like a WW2 M1 Garand rifle. Plus, you would have to carry a nice bulk of batteries (unless you manage to get your hands on some lithium batteries!).

The main reason the military haven't tried to research MACs as infatery weapons is because they don't really outperform existing weapon systems; there is no clear advantage of using a coil gun over a SCAR. I think the only place they are trying to use them is naval warfare, where they can fit those huge capacitors on the ships. And even then, they prefer rail guns to coil guns.

You can always try to create a hybrid Gauss sniper firing solid projectiles stabilised with wings with a 9mm SMG attached at the bottom ;)

[-=HeX=-]

Jacks complete: yes, the coilgun was to circumvent the law. Right now I am redesigning a new weapon system based on the oicw concept. Same gyrojet base weapon and a submachinegun mounted underneath it. Maybe I will work on the close quarter battle sniper rifle project again. I will scan in the drawings when I have the time.

I also am getting parts for a coilgun sniper rifle gun with 3 stages and each stage having a 500 camera flash capacitor cap bank. Can anyone find out for me what amount of foot pounds a 5 gram projectile would impart at 1% efficiency?

Yafmot has told me quite a lot about coilguns and I will impart his knowledge to you when I have time. I also cant wait for crazywhiteguys write up on the Ramset rifle.

[dariannasc]

Would it be possible to use the batteries themselves as rounds?

[Jacks Complete]

-=Hex=-, you won't get around the UK law that easily! If you have a rail to guide the projectile, then that is also an offence, as you are launching a "missile" (Yes, anything thrown or propelled is a "missile" not just the rocket engine powered things we normally think of at first) so they can still arrest you and lock you up.

The law in the UK concerning guns has just about no loopholes. A guy tried to get around it by having the bullet stick out the end of the chamber - hence not "a lethal barrelled weapon" but the court ruled the chamber was the barrel, and he went down for some years. Take care! Read up on the treatment of Luty if you remain unconvinced.

dariannasc, you probably could, but with every shot you fired you would be reducing the power available for the remaining rounds. Unless you could find some neat way of turning the entire output of a single battery into energy all at once... And that's called a capacitor! (Or an explosive. ;-) )

A few years back I came up with the idea of using a chemical propellant to fire a "bullet" made from neodymium magnetic material through a coil. This sharp pulse would then be used to propel the actual projectile, without the usual issues of the barrel melting, the upper limits of gas velocity for a given pressure & temperature, etc. I never did anything with it. You could actually get an even sharper magnetic pulse with even more power by destroying a high flux coil with an explosion - I've read of 200T! :-O - and I suspect that firing a high powered magnet into a steel (or other hard) plate to destroy it might give interesting results. Of course, the shock of the acceleration might kill a fragile neodymium magnet dead...

[-=HeX=-]

Jesus, almost forgot this thread with the damned upheavals in my life.

Ah Jacks Complete, Irish firearm law has not yet banned coilguns, provided their impact energy is less than one joule. And with a simple disconnection of some of the cap banks... The weapon becomes legal. However my coilguns arent turning out so good, the charging is proving to be a bitch. But with my new design I have that beaten. I also have blown up literally HUNDREDS of caps, and only have like 60 left. So its gonna be a one stager. I may mount it below a pipe shotgun or something as a 'silent' weapon, compared to the 12 gauge.

That is, when I have time and money, my budget is being stretched thin. First I will finish my OTC lead azide testing, my work with TATP, and some work on dynamites.

EDIT:
Oh, I am also working on an isotropic radiator using explosively pumped xenon tubes. Initial testing of the device was positive. Now to perfect it, and weaponize it. I emailed a report on its first projectile test to waveguider a while back, it was a basic Iso pulse device on a simple rocket. It was a beauty, I fired it a month ago. The next one, a groung test, is being slowly brepared. I hope it can produce the effect I want to see again!

[iHME]

Making a simple OICW style weapon would be fun.
A simple smg or similar on top and a single shot pipe shotgun under its barrel, to provide the fire power needed in desperate situations.
If 40mm cases are available one could make a single shot 40mm launcher for it, but that would be rather unoriginal. IIRC 40mm cases designed for the m203 work at 400psi.

[Jacks Complete]

You'll need a fairly simple electronic charging system to avoid blowing your caps to bits. Basically, the hardest part about a coilgun or other capacitor-fired device is judging how much power is left in the bank. For repeatability, you want to ensure it is roughly the same total energy discharged each time. Since you can discharge to zero very easily, you then need a transistor based timer to recharge to the required power level, by simply turning on the charger circuit for a precise length of time.

What are you using for your trigger and switch?

I used a set of massive bridge diodes and ran mine off the mains via a variac and welder transformer. (This was a railgun) Of course, we fried the diodes instantly, and ended up with ~3 volts at better than 400A. The cap bank was charged in seconds. We used the steel ball bearing projectile as the circuit closer, but all we ever got was a hot ball bearing and some minor sparking.

I've never tried a coilgun in the same way.

[-=HeX=-]

Well, I worked out the amount of joules the bank has, its a whopping 144000 joules of electrical energy, 240 volts at about 5 farads. I got a friend who is an electrical engineer to test it out, he verified my claims with his calculations. It is 50 of the camera flash caps in parallel. To charge it we are using some rectifyer that uses 4 finder in a diamond formation with a 100 watt lightbulb as resistive ballast. Apparently it can charge then in a second flat, powered by 1 amp mains current. So I will use a momentary switch to charge, holding it down for a second.

I am building a spring loaded switch to trigger the Bastard soon. The coil has yet to be wound. I am planning to use an inverter as its power source.

[waveguider]

I saw an interesting show called Weapons Masters on discovery and they displayed the gyrojet. Unfortunately it isn't on youtube but there is a video by the History channel on the gyrojet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoffTmg9bxU&NR=1