PA synth on MEGA'S CHEM LAB

[Roy Paci]

Shouldm't the procedure via ASA report a proper measure like grams instead of "aspirin tablets"?
I want to clarify that most of my friend's poor little knowledge in expl. field come from this site.

thanks

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It's a common ASA synthesis for Picric Acid and it's also 3rd in line in terms of procedures. [I understand that exacting measurements may be a goal] Commonly, picric acid using ASA is generally considered to be a form of improvisational chemistry.
However to address the point specifically, if I am correct there is generally considered to be a standardized dosage in generic aspirin. It was obviously 3rd inline for a reason. I'm not defending or obfuscating the issue but if I personally felt strongly about this I would have sent a PM to the guy himself, directly.

[Aristocles]

I could be wrong but I would assume they are 325 mg ASA per tablet. Probably extracted with acetone; I haven't read the synthesis.

I'm with Charles, I'd probably pm and ask

[Enkidu]

I have seen the synthesis... and it is gravely lacking in details on many points.

[Roy Paci]

I am sure about ASA method not being that "serious". But is still a way to get PA.
Then, I've been reading this forum for years and I know it for being extremely precise. Especially for MEGA'S CHEM LAB. If something is there, it is worth to be. So, once mods decide it is worth, I think that a wee bit of more precision would help keeping the highest standard.
Then I don't know if there is actually a standard dosage for ASA.
I.e. Cardioaspirin is pure ASA witha a different dosage, with no other chemicals excepted corn binder.
The issue was not posted for any personal curiosity. There is Alen's thread for that.
You know, hope to be helpful. Nothing else. :)

thanks

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Simply from my own perspective, I don't do "recipes". I read a synthesis and reread it. Then I get another opinion and another. Finally, after having opted to make something, I take a look at what resources I have and make a determination based on what chemicals and materials are available; the actual amounts are almost meaningless as I am looking for the procedural intent, not the specifics. And in terms of something on the level of picric acid, I have used horn, wool, indigo as well as ASA and needed to find much more information on the older procedure that were used with this substitution.

I do much of this hobby with a friend who is much younger than I and he has a much more specific education in chemistry. I was once very impressed with one individual on this forum who went to the point of reading up on the science and asking questions (in a PM to me) of molar weight equivalences. This, to me, is what this hobby represents; the personal pursuit of the science. I really don't want anyone to give me the answers, per se'.

The only direct labs I even considered were based on benzene ring equilibrium constants used as instructional material (from phenol). Especially with something like PA...which can be very much a "nitration art". Now if we were talking about something that is very individuated (not a nitration) then I believe that the specifics have more impact. The others were fun to read but I wouldn't do a lab based on something I had not personally evaluated from differing sources. Everyone can omit something or be a bit sloppy. The learning of a science should not depend on a single source for information; ....just my opinion.

[Rbick]

Also, take a look at the PA thread started here some years back. The first post of the thread has a highly detailed description of how to 1. Obtain ASA from aspirin and the amounts obtained and B. the nitration procedure of the ASA. He even added pictures, although I'm not sure if they are still loaded on the server.

[Killy]

Right amount of chemicals in PA synthesis are crucial !

I tried to make PA few times with bad recipe, in which was too many h2so4,
so when I poured h2so4+kno3+ASA (aspirin) solution in cold water, it just dissolved in water, not perticipate PA from it.

I got the same result few times,
till I changed the recipe.
Correct Measures :
kno3 = 15g
ASA = 7 g
h2so4 = 30 ml

[Rbick]

Could you share some specifics with us? How much was your yield, temperatures, ect. Also, did you use distilled water? I have heard this is crucial, although I have never tried it with anything other than distilled water.

[Killy]

I worked with recipe froim Flashbangboom.com and a bit from a.cookbook.

I bought 20 aspirins 500 ( 0.5 g ASA in one aspirin), purified them with alcohol and get about 7 grams of ASA.

Then I poured ASA in concentrated H2SO4 which was heated so that all ASA will dissolve.
When Its dissolved, I waited to cool down, and than slowly added kno3, 1 gram at a time, and maintained temperature and stirred.
I waited for reaction to be done, and that everything cools down.

Than I took 200 ml of ice cold water (regular, not distilled) and poured the mix in that water, so that the PA participate in water.
If everything is allright (measures), It should participate (PA),
if not, h2so4 will dissolve in water with great amount of heat and you will get total shit.
(like I get few times, and wondered whats wrong, because first time I made it I get it right because I worked with a.cookbook recipe, and other times with recipe from some idiot amateur pyrotehnician)

Than I filtered and obtained PA through paper towel "filter",
and filtered solution is saved and put in fridge to cool down to filter it again to obtain more PA.

My final PA yield was 13-14 grams.

[megalomania]

Indeed this is the only procedure on my website not derived from a scientific publiction. This improvisational procedure is a combination of information from the CIA field manual on improvised explosives, and from one of the KIPE books, as I recall. The point of the procedure is that it is improvisational and not exact in nature. This explosive preparation is meant to be done “in the field” as it were. I see that the procedure does not follow my typical writing format for separating the different syntheses… I added a note to my whiteboard and I will edit the information appropriately to clearly identify this content as being atypical of all other information.

I was concerned when I added that procedure since it is non-standard information, however the procedure works and it is informative if not scientifically precise. This is the reason why I wanted to start dedicated threads for people to discuss my published procedures. It takes a lot of work getting everything I have planned implemented, so I still need a lot more time to suss out all the kinks.

Now that wikipedia has an established policy of not allowing actual chemical syntheses, I can and will be adding all my sources of information to the relevant labs. Unfortunately I lost many of the sources for the older explosive labs due to a corrupted backup. I am slowly getting the old sources back as I rediscover them. First I will have to establish a protocol for dealing with wikithieves, I will not have some idiot “editor” use my references to bolster his wiki article unless there is a link back to my page.

[Roy Paci]

Everybody who has mistaken: was not meant to be helpful for me, I repeat. I've been following Alen's thread on PA for years. I know the procedure, I dreamed of trying it (as Alen says) and stopped to first steps for personal concernings about equipment not being safe.

Mega: In this six years I learned a lot from this site. It is simply great. Keep going like this. I found also very funny the "database error" message page.

thanks

[Silentnite]

I'm not sure what your looking for here Roy. It's meant to be an "in-field" type of production, not a Clean-room type. So is it a question about how to follow the procedure or should something be changed?

[Lewis]

Not to beat the issue to death or anything, but...

Even in the 'field', specific amounts could be useful, as perhaps in dire situations it is more important than ever to conserve materials.

I've tried megalomania's synthesis through aspirin, using a lot of guesswork. (I think I had extra large pills)

The long-short is that while I did get to TNP, it was something of a pain, and I ended up discarding the product anyway... But it DOES work.

[Roy Paci]

I wanted just to say:

"Hey guys, it's not precise, there! Why couldn't it be changed for readers benefit?"

nothing else. I got an answer and an explaination for it.

I'm satisfied, aren't you?