Tactical Batons

[frostfire]

My new work requires me to walk alot at night, I'm thinking if there's any defense weapon good enough for short collision since I'm not a very good runner. A weapon that should be painful enough to break the spirit but not too painful that it would aggravate the attacker/making him gone berserk.

I've been researching on those telescoping batons, the ASP especially. While the cops use it, I think it must be quite easy to operate it since the skinny lady at the store can open it with a single wrist twist.

Now those ASP batons somehow has a hard to believe price, I'd spend money for quality, but not names. Do any of you ever have experience with this type of weapon, ASP, wilmoth, or any other brand???
You could also tell how you felt if you ever got beaten by one ;)

[SATANIC]

I have a friend with a "CASCO" extendable baton, it telescopes to about 15cm, and extends to about 40 cm. Even un-extended, it would make a great improvised weapon. extremely heavy, compact, and with a rubberised grip, easy to hold on to.

I would probably actually rather use it unextended, by using a jabbing motion with the pommel / base. All the weight of the baton, and my swing, hitting them in one small compacted area is really going to hurt. If you're fast enough, you can swing it fast, and so extend it and hit them in the one swing. :D That way it's less than a few seconds between it coming from your pocket, and them getting smashed on the shoulder / edge of the neck (would be my point of aim.)

While i don't think it will completely incapacitate him, it would certainly make anyone think twice. Unfortunately, it is likely to get any hooligan pissed if you drop him with one blow. (which is why you follow up quickly with more :p )

The hard bit is getting it back from extended. you have to hit them sideways on something hard to 'break' the seal it forms. (the harder you swing it out, the harder this will be.)

At $190 AUS, i won't be getting one, but if i could afford it, it would be my concealed weapon of choice.

[Tyler_Durden]

"might incapacitate" and "better follow up"

...think again, buddy.

This things are WAY more powerful than most peopl expect. Why do you think the fuzz only hits you in the ribs with their batons? Well, for starters, people cover their head as a reflex, leaving their bellies plump for the thumpin. That, and the little problem of KILLING the subject when tryint to subdue them, if you hit them in the head that is.

I know of incidents where a collapsable baton has broken a FEMUR. That's right. That really really big bone in your thigh. One swing.

If you give a thug a good crack, well, pretty much anywhere in the head or neck... or a solid shot to the ribs/stomache, you can bet yer ass he's gonna be incapacitated!

[MoToMaStR]

my dad bough one of them in flordia when we went down in december.its about 5 or 6" long, and when you extrend it its about 18" long and plenty heavy, id say about 2 lbs. the tip of it has a ball aboutthe size of a pinball machine steel ball, and id say a whot to the head or face would take a chunk of skull out along with it. the intimidation factor alone of the 3 clicks when its extended should be mroe than enough to ward off any would be attacker. but definatly 1 swing would be more than enough to drop anyone. if i remember correctly it was about 20 bucks, 180 in AUS? wow man, thats alotta money.
well take it easy dude.

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: MoToMaStR ]</small>

[PYRO500]

although I favor the side handle baton or tonfa, the concealability and power of these expandable ones is nothing to doubt. ASP is just a brand of the baton, there are cheaper generic brands witch might do just as well. since you job requires you to walk around at night I ouldrecomend a big maglight flashlight. these are big, heavy and can become frersome weapons in an instant.

[Mick]

only reason its so expensive in AUS s cause there illeagal

like everything fucking else is around here

[frostfire]

walking at night is not the job, it's the way to go home, which is walking to the parking lot several blocks away from the building (darn expensive downtown rate!)

I was thinking about 16/26 inch (exyended), if you go to botach tactical you'll see the thing. It costs around $65-$75, the imitation cause you around $19-$25, that's why I'm so high in doubt

I don't think I can carry tonfa around since it will raise questions from my comrades, flashlight could be a good thing (those tactical Maglite ones), but those are actually pretty heavy and for beating purpose, the diameter would only be comfortable for someone with big palm and strong wrist

As for that incapatitating power, I'm still wondering if theyre actually that powerful,somehow I thought a well built street people would be able to withstand such blow. Also most likely I'll be hitting arms/wrist to drop their knives or prevent them from grabbing the baton. Let's see if there's actually a training for using this thing. I know the cops are trained first.

[Tyler_Durden]

They are trained to fake to the head, hit in the rib cage. No serious training.

The only training you could do with one, really, would be using one vs someone else with one, which is so unlikely its not worth the trouble. It would be basically the same as kali stick fighting, though.

If you hit someone hard in the arm with one, trust me, you will knock the damn weapon out of their hand, and prolly even break their arm.

The flashlight is a great overhead pummel. Hole it over your shoulder, with your hand on the light part that is facing forward, this way you can shine it in their face (they can't see), and easily strike downward, and shine in their eyes again if need be. (go to the link in the "Modern Metsubushi" thread to see where I got this tactic, and I think it has a bit more in depth on it too)

Just practice drawing it fast, really fast, while on the move, while backing away, while charging etc. The striking part is just natural, assuming you have any coordination at all. Swing for... just about anything really, depending on the threat level of the attacker. If he is undermed, dont crack his skull open when he asks for your wallet. If he is within 5 feet and has a knife ready to strike, maybe a swift jaw shot is just the thing you need, and may get away with if it goes to court (which you should do everything to prevent anyway).

And by the way, don't doubt the batons strength and brutality, I am not exaggerating or making it up when I say that it can break bones straight up. And that's the big ones covered with thick flesh. Imagine what one of those would to to a skull?

Here is something to give you an idea: tap yourself VERY lightly on the head with the end of it. It will sting a little. Now imagine a full force, full speed shot, maybe to the temple? *ouch*

[SATANIC]

Mick, they're not illegal in Australia, :D go to an army disposals store, they sell to mainly security guards and the like, (cops who lose theirs) :rolleyes:

with a good swing, no matter where you hit someone, you will hurt them. a good hit to the head is going to cause major damage. hit anywhere else, and you'll stop them from using whatever you hit (arm or whatever)

get one and practice. you'll understand.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Frostfire, you mentioned that the diameter\weight of the large (D Cell \ Rechargeable) MagLites is too large? May I suggest the 5C model...this has a similar length, the same brightness, weighs a bit less and has a more comfortable diameter for smaller hands.

Not to say that its LIGHT mind you... a whack from one of those SOBs will hurt...allot. A swift contact with the skull would knock the guy down and out for sure.

Also, there are these nylon grip\sheath things for maglites. You may have seen them. They basically affix over the forward part, and assist in..well.. beating people :) Ill try and find a link for ya...

I have a small-ish 4C... and sure as hell wouldnt wanna get hit with that mofo. That is a little short reach tho... but jabbing motions to the crotch\throat would be damn effective.

Ill grab the link...
L8r,
rob

EDIT : <a href="http://www.zbattery.com/gnc05c.html" target="_blank">http://www.zbattery.com/gnc05c.html</a>
Found it...
This thing helps allot for overhead striking with the butt... ouch.

<small>[ June 29, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]</small>

[10fingers]

A collapsible baton would be nice but I'd rather have some of those pointy shoes that have the knives that pop out of the toe. I think I saw them in a James Bond movie. A couple kicks to the groin with those babys and that hombre is going down.

[frostfire]

yep, a knife and you'll get more than you can take.
In US they have all sort of modified laws that benefit the bad guys,
eg. if you're mugged, you give them the money and later chase them and injure them (hit, shoot, stab, name it) and take your money back, you're basically the bad guy now and you can get sued....oh man.

You need to work extremely hard to make something goes under self defense category. Sometime gender makes it easier though

Fl4PP4W0k, thanks for the link, should work at home better

I get it now:
<a href="http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/LE/MEB/chptr3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/LE/MEB/chptr3.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.policebatons.com/mptc/news/news1.html" target="_blank">http://www.policebatons.com/mptc/news/news1.html</a>

<small>[ June 29, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

[kingspaz]

i haven't read much of this thread but heres a link to a place which sells a few different batons and does online purchasing.

<a href="http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/800/shopscr1235.html" target="_blank">http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/800/shopscr1235.html</a>

[Tyler_Durden]

That grip clip thig or whatever is no good for combat. You want to hold the mag by the end, preferably the end where the light comes out. This gives the other end maximum speed, thus maximum force. When swinging that is.

By the way, I don't think thrusting is a really keen idea w/ a mag. It would be about like a punch, but slower and easier to parry.

I will explain my mag tactic a little more clearly (or try to at least)... it allows you to easily shine in the oppenents eyes, while still at the ready to attack downward (ie head/neck) or to the side (ribs, jaw, ears, temple).

Imagine how you would hold a baseball bat over your shoulder with one hand. Specifically, holding w/ your right hand over your right shoulder. Your pinky will be forward, with your fingers wrapped downward on the handle, and your thumb up. Now, replace the bat with a mag-lite. You grip the end where the light comes from, with your thumb and index finger wrapped Just where the "barrel" widens, and the rest of your fingers further up (on the fatter part). This allows you to easily attack, shine at the face, and even hold it with your shoulder/neck clinched together if you need to, without moving much. Since you are holding the end, swings will have maximum speed and force (and damage). It's a very natural swinging motion, too, and it uses gravity to your advantage.

Those batons are all over ebay, too... where they ship to, however, varies.

Also, I just looked at that police training page thing. It's pretty much common sense. 'hit them in the arm and it will hurt a little, hit them in the head it will hurt a lot, and a lot longer'. :)

Baton vs knife: In this situation, consider going for the bicep (not tricep), and if you are lucky, the area where the bicep meets the tricep (on the inside of the arm). It's quite a pressure point. Press down on it with your thumb if you don't believe me. Anyway, even punching someone there can temporarily disable the arm (and thus the weapon). It wouldn't be easy to hit, but very effective if pulled off.

[10fingers]

Frostfire, the shoes with the knives was a bit of sarcasm.
Have you thought about just getting a can of mace. It's cheap and easy to find. Some of this stuff sprays quite a ways so you wouldn't have as much risk of being grabbed. Even with a baton, if they grab you it could be bad.
Another good thing to carry is a whistle. Sometimes just making a lot of noise will scare off a potential attacker.

[PYRO500]

Exactly how bad is this area you are walking through? if it were really bad I'd see if I could get a permit to carry a piece if my state allowed it. or you could get a large butterfly knife or something that is easily visible when you want it to be.

[0EZ0]

Quite an interesting site selling all types of non-lethal defensive equipment:
<a href="http://www.nonlethalforce.com/" target="_blank">http://www.nonlethalforce.com/</a>

[frostfire]

how bad?, well it's downtown area for sure and there's been 5 cases reported on/near that particular street this month. 2 with a gun, 1 with a knife, 2 uncertain whether the mugger got a weapon or not.

I'm taking an advice from the last safety session from the complex police; stun guns don't work on all people and mace as well. ( he told us a story about a can man deflecting a cop's mace just by covering his face with his own shirt, the start beating the cop)

I'm not very comfortable with a piece, I'm worry it would hurt me or my friends/family more than being used as an actual defense weapon.

Those batons in ebay are imitation and the quality is questionable. I think monadnock is the best one; quality & price wise.

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

[PYRO500]

if you must get a blank firing gun then. if they fuck with you shoot it in the air, that might work but be prepared to back it up with something real if necessary. what about an air tazer? you could buy pepper spray or better, pepper foam, that stuff is suppoised to not be easily wiped off and while mace won't really work on everyone (esp drunks) pepper spray will blind anyone that gets a mist in their eyes and they will have their eyelids sewll and forcibly shut them, you just have to get them good. what about a possibly non threatening weapon like a screwdriver? they are very great at leaving dep puncutre wounds and are disposable. but for most people they stay away from the melee weapons. I'd suggest an air taser but if there are sevaral targets that will do no good and they are expensive.

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[kingspaz]

some guy whos waiting to be approved emailed me a couple of relevent links to post here:

<a href="http://www.prokit.fsnet.co.uk/batons.html" target="_blank">http://www.prokit.fsnet.co.uk/batons.html</a>

<a href="http://www.spytech-uk.com/" target="_blank">http://www.spytech-uk.com/</a>

[frostfire]

wow, you guys in UK really pay toooo much money for batons...thank the guys for the link though, at least I know where to order stuff in UK and the price as well

that blank gun is very creative and those M-18's are really for the serious & rich (which I'm not the second one :( )

Mace, pepper spray etc ect:
-they can be deflected
-watch for the wind
-will definitely aggravate the attacker

I've decided what I need, I most definitely will buy that air canned honker NBK mentioned, practice more jogging/sprinting....yep, that and perhaps backed up by an APS or monadnock

10fingers, now I get the sarcasm...yes that's true, if I want to be really mean, the first place I would maim is their
"extendable baton" :D

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Another thing you may want to get, frostfire, is a rechargable handheld spotlight. They cost about $20-40 at Wal-Mart, weigh a couple of pounds, and put out something like 200,000 candlepower or more. Get the one with the gun style trigger.

You have this slung around your neck when some punk approachs, you just whip it out and blind him with a flash in the eyes. Keep your dominant eye closed while you do this so you still have night vision in one eye.

While he's blinded, you blast him with the air horn can, closer to his ear the better. Then either attack or run. He's blind and deaf, so in no shape to either defend or attack.

If you threw some pepper spray into the mix, so much the better.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

Yeah, Tyler.. I totally agree.

Those little grip thingies would be good with a smaller one (like mine) that dont have much lenght. 2D or whatever.
With that grip on the side, a downwards thrust onto the top of the head would be pretty decent...

Eg: Kick 'em in the nuts, they start to go down, and you whack em with the base of the mag.

I guess one would just have to find what method they prefer...

And, as i suggested in the 'Improvised Metsubushi' or whatever, a can of oven cleaner is damn effective as a makeshift OC or Mace.
30% NaOH, foaming, and the cans easily modified to a long range stream.

Problem is that its TOO effective.... If you get someone in the eyes, and they dont get medical attention quick (or flush with shitloads of water\vinegar) then permanent eye damage is guaranteed.
Ofcourse, the bums that go about mugging ppl dont deserve eyesight...so as long as the cops dont catchya - squirt away :mad:

NBK... while those spotlights are effective as hell (1.5million candle power..ouch) i couldnt really see the average guy walking down the street with one over his neck :p It would look a tad odd.
I wouldnt be surprised if some bum came up behind you, knocked u over the head and stole it :D

A blank firing gun isnt always a good idea. Ofcourse if its some little kiddy-gangsta who doesnt wanna start anything serious - then they work great. BUT.... if the mugger ALSO has a gun - then your in the shitter.

A solution is to get a concealed carry permit.... or just buy a small .410\.22 derringer kit. These things are powerful and un-liscenced to buy (carry is another matter). Theres not much intimidation factor with a derringer... but still.

[PYRO500]

After doing a trace on your ip (to let me know the area that you might live in better) I can hhonestly say that if you live where I think you do that you not very likely to get a concealed weapons permit there, especially in the city I remember a trip to that city and we almost ended up staying in a hotel that had been given a drive by complete with freshly plastered over bullet holes. I think the flashlight ideas is a good one just make sure you are prepared to use it and can get to it quickly and that the switch isn't rigid or complicated. have den the gun type wthat have a trigger type switch that rocks left and light and is a bitch to flip on especially if you pushed the lock from behind in. instead I'd recomend the gun type that have the traditional trigger style and somehow glue the safety off to avoid any mistakes after all any self defens weapon should not have any things on it to slow it down. as for guns, since you won't likely get a concealed carry permit then you might be able to carry a pepper spray pistol, witch is sort of like a blank gun but with a hole in the barrel to allow pepperspray from cartrages to be fired at an attacker.As for home made weapons I am currently experimenting with an xenon camera flash that I removed from a camera recently, I mounted it in a box and added a few extra photo flash capacitors (actually 3 extra totaling 4) when this thing is charged it contains about 18J of energy (30J considered lethal or causing severe injury) in fact the flash puts out so mush light that whe it's held up to a piece of paper with laser printer toner on it (just a printed page) in caused the toner to noisily explode and put burn marks on the paper, needless to say this thing is absolutely blinding in daylight (think of the last photograph you took and imagine about 4 1/2 times brighter and in your face. ) I am currently waiting on getting more flash capacitors to really make a powerful flash and if the bulb explodes from the stress well, that might have some interesting effects on your attackers face. I am also waiting for a call back to be approved for my new job as a late night movie projectionist (think fight club) in most theaters they use xenon arc lamps to light the screen witch can be ignited just like flash tubes in cameras except that they are capable of much more energy running through them as they were designed for continuous use. I have a big 15 pound super low ESR 1000V 50J capicitor that seems to be up for experimentation and if I can get more photo flash capacitors I may build a big maglight flashlight sized device that can burn (set on fire) any dark objects close to it's lens.

[Flake2m]

My Mum has some of that concentrated OC pepper spray. It is bloody powerful stuff :D . I test fired it (it says on the label to test every 30 days to prevent mis-fires) into the shower, I thought I had washed it off the tiles.
I had a shower an hour later, and had difficulty breathing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> because I had missed a very small amount (&gt;.5ml) of the stuff, after about a minute of coffing it was washed away.
Tape a can of this stuff onto your baton so you have a more potent weapon. If you get attacked you can spray the (now) victim in the eyes with this stuff and then bash him with the telescopic baton, if he gets too close.

[pyromaniac_guy]

pyro500...
all projection systems i have seen that use an arc lamps use a short arc xenon arc lamp... These are not suitable for use as a flash lamp.. yop will very quickly destroy the electrodes (after literally only a few shots) if you really want to experiment with a flash blinding device get a proper flashlamp off of ebay.. you could probably get one for 10 or 20 bux.... if that doesnt work, look at lasersurplus.com ... go to the alsers page and scroll all the way down.. .the guy has some brand new flashlamps for 50 bux... a fair bit cheaper than they come new, and you could probably haggle him down a fair bit too....

[frostfire]

PYRO500, I don't know if you get the place correct (darn if you do..), but I believe it's completely legal to carry such device here.Why?
- in the last safety course by the local police, people ask about carrying mace, even stun baton! He didn't tell us anything about illegal aspects, he only said that people response differently from the usage of these devices

- it's sold in a legal/legitimate security store to the public (if it's illegalto carry, then they would be illegal right)

- I've been trying hard to find in the net a shopping page that mention states where they can't ship stun guns/batons etc, as I recalled, they were CA (most definite), NY, MN, etc but my place was excluded

How big is this flash lamp, is it similar to those old fashion camera flash?

a sprayer idea: ever play with those gas BB gun? my freund opens one and take a cylinder witha plastic nozzle from the handle. You can filled it with flammable gas (hence pocket dragon, note: you won't burn yourself, it's ejected with high pressure) or you can fill the plastic nozzle with goodies (eg. the old KGB cyanide sprayer)

[pyromaniac_guy]

frostfire...
dude if you think that just because a store can legally sell a weapon to the public, i advise you to talk to someone who knows what the law actually says and means.... you can walk into any wall-mart and buy a shotgun, hacksaw, and trench coat. that doesnt mean you can saw the barrel and walk about carrying the gun under your coat...
where i live it's legal to buy stun guns, but to carry it concealed on your person you need a concealed weapons permit....

[PYRO500]

I wasn't talking about ordinary weapons fronst fire I was talking about citizens carrying concealed firearms. as far as most states go they usually only give them out for property protection. Although around here they can't refuse a to give you a permit if you are an ordinary law obiding citizen although the slightest visibility of the weapon is a few years in prison and a felony meaning no more guns. The reason it's so easy in this state is most likely the frequent carjackings.

[Eliteforum]

I don't know why you are all complaining about the high prices, I've seen them for sale for as low as £14 ($21 euro's) at <a href="http://www.guns2u.com" target="_blank">www.guns2u.com</a>

Here is a picture of the one they have for sale: <img src="http://www.guns2u.com/products/images/truncheon/truncheon_tele_open1.jpg" alt=" - " />

[Mr Cool]

I don't know how effective this would be, but it might be worth thinking about if you have the chems: It would be easy to make a little flash pot, similar to the things that they use for stage effects, but with a more powerful flash powder, and put on a little handle and some sort of trigger to ignite it from a 9v battery. Don't make the flash too good though, or it'll blow the thing to pieces and make a mess of both of you!

But I think it might work, a loud BANG and an absolutely blinding flash will disorientate and blind the attacker, and then if you leap through the cloud of smoke and smash his nose in with fist or baton, while the "attacker" is still trying to work out what the fuck that was, and whether or not he's been shot, and where you are (he's blind remember, and maybe temporarily deaf)... it could work. Try not to accidentally set anyone on fire, though.

[Deja_W]

I have used the tactical extending baton several times in my line of work, and I’ve never had any complaints. This weapon like any other requires skill to use, but a good solid blow to the leg will, in most cases, put a man down.

[Ropik]

I'm carrying 21" hardened baton(it cost 25 dollars and it's worth every cent of them) on my belt all the time... and it begins to pay back now.
I was asked for a cellphone by two punks. I put on my best "scared to death" face and said yes. I reached to my belt(I have the pocket with the phone in close proximity of the baton holster... You can decide what is better to pull from underneath the jacket :D) and jerked out the baton. It readily opened and I slammed the first punk to thigh(best target when you can reach it, IMO. The muscles will contract and the leg will collapse under him). Almost instant takedown. The second punk vanished as a ghost. The strike was powered only by flick of the arm, no hip rotation or whatever. The effectivity amaze me even now. One strike - one opponent out of the fight. Superior argument for close-up :) .

[festergrump]

I hope they didn't just need to call their parents to let them know they'd be a little late for dinner! I promise I will never ask you for your cellphone...EVER! ;)

I can vouch for the effectiveness of those batons, also. Even the cheaper immitation batons are worth their weight in gold if you must walk the streets late or travel subways and such. I'd even say it'd wreak havok on a very aggressive dog if need be.

Like you, Ropik, I'd wear it beneath a jacket or otherwise concealed to avoid notice. Carrying it in plain view is asking for trouble (Fuck the law. Don't get searched). The surprise of an expandable weapon such as this is every bit as effective as the wallop it provides.

[jackhammer]

I have a collapsable baton, and it does indeed make a handy little weapon, especially if you know how to use it. I prefer my metal nunchuku (I made them myself) because they are thin (for nunchucks) and very heavy, so that with a little swing you can break just about anything. The bad part is that these take even more training because it's easy to break your own bones with them. I know a lot of guys who would like to carry around 6 to 8 inch knives for protection, thinking this is the most lethat, but what you really want is the most reach. I would rather have a large stick in my hand then an 8 in. combat dagger if it came down to a mugging. Therefore, I would recommend a cane. Bujinkan ninpo and some wu su styles as well as filipino styles have a lot on cane fighting, as not only can they be hard and have reach, the crook end can be used for many holds. Also, if you really want protection, you can get a cane with a sword concealed inside (try ordering offline if it's not legal in your state, just don't get caught!).

[megolodon180]

A good site to pick up collapsable batons for a reasonable price is at gunbroker.com. This (http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Browse.asp?Cat=902) should link you to the site. Other useful, nonlethal defensive items are also for sale there.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There was actually a test done on these things by the NIJ and some interesting results were published. The ASP and the REAL MONADNOCK where the only ones that they wanted to do some extensive work with (CASCO makes a no-name that -=could=- be a Monadnock).

The steel was an issue. the ASP has heavier steel. They both were non-seamed tubing (the knock-offs are seamed tubing and are crap). The ASP albeit heavier (.075mm), took a bend. The MONADNOCK did not take a bend but actually worked as a spring. There is a certain length that allows for great rigidity (21") and at 26" there is some flex. This flexing of the baton has some influence on pain as it creates a "whip" from a non-weight influenced blow (wherein the user puts his weight behind the swing as opposed to using the wrist/arm as a reflexive strike).

The testing was extensive and utilized a constant force machine in direct compression and kinetic impact. The steel used is quite different. The MONADNOCK was a type of bicycle-steel used in frames for bikes and such. The steel used in the ASP was often used in structural re-enforcement, etc. Both were EXTREMELY high quality tubing. The flaring at the end joints was an issue as well but I believe that the type of plating (if any) had an effect on the wear level of the flare. There was even some testing done on a plated variant to determine rust resistance and visibility in various light conditions, etc. Note also that the use of tapping on the floor will roughen the tip causing abrasion to the skin of the subject.

The steel knob on the end of both standard models (MONADNOCK makes some variants) was also at issue...the ASP was rounder and would possibly produced less tearing while the MONADNOCK was a cylinder which was sharper. This was significant in the blood-born pathogens issue as well as the mark left on the subject. Which is a PR issue and very important to some buyers.

Basically the MONADNOCK was rated slightly higher than the ASP due to the spring issue. Sizes also were thought to be important as the 16" total length was deemed simply too small to be anything but a head buster. ASP maks a 31" that was also rated too large and would bend on 175lbs. 21" was smallest effective as per the NIJ. I wanted to site source but I only found the old police-batons.com notation on the print out. [NIJ has their own test related web site]

[209]

Some time ago I fouund an idea non-lethal wepon that would work excellent against an attacker, but only at close range.

Useless against multipe attackers, yet small and easy to carry around but only has one shot. I found out about those confetti bangers at a dinner party one night. I am not talking aobut those little bangers that let off with a "pop" and a small burst of confetti, but a large piece of clear pipe about a foot long that lets of a blast like a gun and sends out enormous amounts of confetti. The gun can be bought at party shops and uses a disposable C02 cylinder as the propellant for the enourmous noise and confetti blast.

If some guy stepped out of a shadow one night and demanded your wallet, reach behind you like your going for the wallet and instead grab the confetti gun and pull the string on it at point blank range directed at his face.

I thought at first to be quite funny, however if it was let off in your face this may have potential to cause serious damage to the ears and eyes. Anyone with this thing going off in their face would without a doubt shit their pants an fall to the ground, completly stunned, while you casually walk away. Piece of cake :D.

[nbk2000]

A collapsible baton that is superior to the ASP or Monadnock, is the Wilmoth (http://peacekeeperproducts.com/index.asp).

Machined from solid bar stock, rather than DOM tubing, with a pound of solid steel at the business end of the baton. :)

It's the issued nigger whuppin stick of both LAPD and the Atlanta Housing Police. And if these guys use it, it must be the shit, because anything they use must be able to put down a cracked out nigger.

Note that LAPD got these after the Rodney King incident showed their existing batons to be inadequate.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Both the Monadnock & the Wilmoth are available in 24". This size is extremely important in that it provides the intermediate size that is both ridged and long enough to utilize as a impact range weapon. The Wilmoth appears to have been thought through from issues arising from both of the others listed above. However often you get what you pay for & the Wilmoth is pricey. In reality, if one's life may be dependent on the equipment one carries; who gives a damn?

The PR24 (Rotney-King stick) as a Tonfa is simply to much work to maintain proficiency with over the long haul. No one who works for a living dealing with sub-human garbage is going to want to maintain practice with a martial arts implement.....hence we have the "clubbing activity" we saw when old "Rotney" needed to comply. Some pain compliance methods work in a controlled setting & when real life beckons.....it's a joke. The plethora of compliance holds with the PR24 were simply impractical when one is dealing with a sweaty, bloody, shit-faced untermenchen.

From a simple standpoint of speed the steel baton has them (impact weapons) all beat. What's more you can put your weight behind it. You don't need to rely on rotational coordination (nunchakus) for kinetic impact. Those individuals who have used many impact weapons start to agree that when the adrenaline is up and the situation is a slippery wet grass lawn, gravel, moist hands, etc. the ideal implement is a solid one and the simpler the better.

This is one reason why I have come to APPRECIATE RS. There is a difference between liking something and appreciating it. RS provides information on a professional level. There is little to no crap like "I smoked bong loads with John Plaster", etc. At minimum it's addressed and nipped in the bud before he whole thread is ruined (and that must take a lot of constant vigilance and hassle).

[hatal]

I have used a collapsable steel baton myself (great for clubbing in the knee cab). They go by the name "vipera" here. They are very popular among disco security guards and other similar lifeforms.

http://i13.tinypic.com/6h7sy37.jpg

/These are ESP brand, quite common but not the only one./

They sell it on the chinese market for 10-20 dollar's. The quality is satisfactional. Meaning: good steel, have been testing it on a few "people" lately and had no breaking or bending of the material (not damaged in anyway).

Disadvantage: it borders legality. I don't know the law by word, but getting caught with it, can get you heavy fines and lot more.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I did some research on the Wilmoth baton and found some interesting things. To quote: " (the Wilmoth) creates a higher kinetic energy transfer. This equates to "rapid stopping power" instead of superficial welts from improperly weighted batons. This redistributed weight also gives smaller officers of either gender, a more competitive edge in a confrontation because it takes less effort to achieve higher impact."

So naturally I had to find out EXACTLY what the difference was..... on the Wilmoth the end section (the striking 3rd tube) was solid! The others had tubing (no matter what the quality level) that was smaller diameter naturally and the striking end was hollow to allow for closing.

Filling the third section with a lead bar gave a whole new feel to a standard ASP or Monadnock. This weighting gave it a slightly tip heavy feel but generally the weight was well distributed. The Wilmoth was also constructed like the Casco "British" collapsible baton with a button as a lock so that it could be pulled and collapsed manually in a closed space.

Aside from the locking mechanism, (which would entail some machining) the weight variance could be employed with an ASP, etc (with the insertion of a lead weight bar or equivalent) to create the effect the Wilmoth found so effective in subduing human refuse.

[nbk2000]

Others have discovered that, while adding lead to the end tube of an ASP increases impact effectiveness, it also decreases lifespan considerably because the tubing isn't intended to support that much weight at the striking end.

So, what happens is, is that the tubing gets bent out of alignment and becomes difficult or impossible to collapse the baton.

The Wilmoth is designed from the start to support a heavy striking end, and all segments are machined from solid bar stock, not DOM tubing.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The Wilmoth also has a larger diameter tube which may be key to their not bending. The real Monadnocks use 4130 which is something often called Tange Infinity in the bicycle trade; expensive and very springy stuff but they still maintain a smaller diameter in the 3rd tube. The ASP uses what's called "common seamless roll-off tubing" which can be anything the jobber has on hand, that why it's heavier and takes a bend.

The experiment was simple. First viewed was the video of the Wilmoth being struck diagonally against the ground to test it's resistance to taking a bend. The a Monadnock was then "loaded" with a solid piece of cold-rolled bar stock .30" to fill the 3rd section and epoxied (as well as pressure driven) into place.

The loaded Monadnock was violently and diagonally struck with a potentially greater level of impact than the video of the Wilmoth. It was fine; no bend. The "feel" was altered considerably with the addition of a solid 3rd member. Lead, brass, or other material was avoided as it would do nothing to add strength. Cold rolled steel added less than 2 oz to the weight but it did make a difference in feel.

Wilmoth must be purchased from 3rd parties as they want contracts and won't sell to the public without you having to have the object sent to an agency. Their videos are not all that impressive......They don't offer the specifics of the construction elements on the web-site. But when you actually have one to play with you see that it (Wilmoth) is wider in diameter and is front heavy. Milling marks are visible to a limited degree.

Whats more they are really milled units. That may just have cost a fortune unless the company obtained hundreds of thousands of tubes from a government over-run. Which I secretly suspect as the cost of milling the units would put them in a position to be vulnerable to ever increasing costs & eventually driven out of business by greedy contractors.

[nbk2000]

The cheapest place I've found selling these batons:

http://botac.com/wil21exbat.html

Any size, from 21 to 29 inch, $70.

[hatal]

70$ seems a bit over-priced for my wallet. For 70$ it must atleast last for 200 bashed skulls.:D

(Doesn't matter, I don't have enemies, that many. And the "family" is belligerent and numerous ;))

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I wanted to add a bit of info that I received regarding this subject specifically. ASP runs a class for the use of their tactical batons Monadnock also runs a certification class. The Monadnock class is a full week, the ASP is generally one working day.

The certifications differ. The concept of the ASP class has a legal component and a Red-Man component. the Monadnock class is much more involved as cert. classes go. But the main difference is the approach......

The ASP classes use a RED MAN (both do actually). Thats a guy in a red padded suit that charges at you, grabs you, swings on you & you swing on this guy till you drop (this is very important in that it emulates adrenal response, etc)! The striking areas are shoulder and down. The use of the weapon is similar to the standard wooden baton in that two hands may be used (to "poke" at midsection) and the strikes are similar to slashing with a saber.

The Monadnock class focus on STRIKING THE HANDS & ARMS of the opposing party(s). This is a very distinct difference. The flexibility of the baton becomes a major part of the technique. A broken hand(s) or forearm can seriously disable an opponent FAST. The emphasis is placed on speed. the fact that large muscle groups are also targeted is there but the emphasis is placed on the opponent's hands and arms.....

This basic difference makes sense in light of the discussion of weather one weapon has advantages over another. The question gets down to one of: "would compound fractures of the hand or forearm take a man out of the fight?" If we confine ourselves to the standard ASP technique of striking the major muscle groups & not looking for a broken bone then baton strength and weight become close to paramount. Note: the broken bone issue is "cleaned up" in the presentation.

Both are safe in that both would most likely not result in a fatality (possible shock issues with compound fractures...if you kept on beating the pulp and broken bones over and over). The techniques may both employ a Red Man but generally the Monadnock places speed and a broken bone in the hand/arm as the goal in the initial response. Any follow up from there is user's choice.

Thus we see a distinct divergence in steel baton training. Source sited from NIJ, NBJ Training Certification Evaluation Practices Board 1998, ASP Inc., & Monodnock Police Training Council. As well as comparisons of 4 hour basic courses, one day Instructor's course Evaluations Committee: NIJ 1998.

[Jacks Complete]

Charles, that's interesting stuff.

If someone was high enough, then a broken handbone isn't going to do much to them pain wise, but it prevents them from actually doing a fat lot. If your fingers aren't working, you can't grab a collar or pull a gun.

Strong blows to the thigh muscle would cause collapse of the leg, even without the pain compliance aspect, and you would be less likely to get arrested for a wounding offence, if no bones were broken.

Tough snap decision to make when under duress, though. If they are holding a knife, breaking the hands is the way to go, I think, but otherwise, it might be worst thinking for a moment before acting. And, if you don't have the time to think, then it's self-defence in it's purest form, so get on with it!

[nbk2000]

The ASP and Mondanock police courses have less to do with effectiveness and everything with liability.

Not what I'd be aiming for. ;)

You want two-handed bayonet thrusts and full batting swings to the skull, jaw, throat, base of neck, clavicle, knee joint, spine, coccyx, nuts, and kidneys.

A heavy steel bat/on does the job quick and quiet. :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The ASP and Mondanock police courses have less to do with effectiveness and everything with liability.


Right on the money! From a realistic perspective an instructor will possibly delve into a quick kill. The steel baton gets thinner and thinner and thus is very fast in motion (with mass times velocity, etc). The quick kill supposedly is the corner of the eye when facing the skull of the opposition. This impacts the area of the brain in a manner most effective for a very fast follow up in the same manner or cervical spine, etc.

Depending on the audience and the location the instructor may delve into these subjects as the stick will kill very easily. Don't look for this sort of info to be delivered to the San Fransisco PD. But it may be spoken of in Fuck-Your Sister Arkansas or Burning Nigger Arizona.

[lwtch32]

RE: Expandable Batons?

Yup seconds for the Casco batons – they are worth the money. A bouncer mate of mine had the cheap Checz copy of the baton and they don’t last – suffer from bending and difficult to retract afterwards. For this reason my mate prefers the Casco or maybe a sturdy (heavy) solid police baton – they’ll put the man down!

I’ve heard good things about the Monadnock batons also.

BTW: I have a PDF of the Monadnock Baton training manual. Since I am a newbie here I could email it to a member here to upload to the FTP for everyone. PM if anyone is interested.

[lwtch32]

I've uploaded the Monadnock Manual (0.5mb pdf) to rapidshare if anyone is interested:

http://rapidshare.com/files/117987398/fs1203.rar.html

[nuclearattack]

tactical batons are a very good close combat weapons but you need to be skilled to use them.
i suggest you to follow a martial art where you can study this kind of weapon...escrima is completely dedicated on this short baton.
i have two of them just like in escrima fighting.

[Jacks Complete]

Upped to FTP as "Monadnock Expandable Baton training manual from lwtch32 (upped by JC).rar"

It is the paper form of the training manual, rather than being anything to do with maintenance. Pretty basic stuff if you are familiar with any martial arts, but very useful as a refresher, and also to know exactly what the user will think when you do certain things.

I should probably note that batons are now illegal in the UK. As far as I know, only a sub-3" bladed single edged knife or a kubutan can be carried. However, I'm no longer sure about even those minor exceptions being something you can actually do legally, as opposed to something you might get away with if stopped. Anyone know better? I'm pretty up on the gun laws, but these asshats in power tweak the law every day to remove some freedom or other.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I have a little idiosyncratic information that may be of interest on this subject. There are actually two major companies, Monadnock & ASP that dominate the market as we know. ASP had continually used a slightly thicker gage material (USS51A1021) l but the steel can take a bend. Monadnock uses a slightly thinner material that is tempered as a spring (it's actually bicycle steel - Tange Infinity, or it's US equivalent I believe). So that the techniques eventually lent themselves to the individual nature of either a steel whip or a single handed baton in their published literature & training classes.

If (the training is) compared side by side you'll see the difference in tactical approach even though the same parameters are maintained (no head shots, bla, bla, bla). The other weird little nuance is that Casco is owned by Monadnock & it's materials are the same EVEN though they don't charge the same high mark-up.

[nuclearattack]

Well, i had a quick look to the pdf on tactical batons, good stuff for beginners.
Lot of principles are directly taken from wing chun "lat sao".

[inkhead]

A flexible/expandable baton is very, very lethal. With a 'angry' swing at the side of the head, you'd kill just about anyone. If you do plan to carry a baton the biggest thing will be showing restraint in the use of it. It's MUCH more dangerous than you would think. So don't go beating anyone with it like it's a stick you picked up in the yard. It vietnam assassinations would be carried out with asp style batons and even rolled up newspapers done just right...

Just remember if you do carry one, and you are attacked you get angry and start swinging odds are high you'll kill the person when one hit was more than enough to put them out/down for a while.

[Ofc Dunny]

In my opinion the ASP expandable baton is a good self defense weapon. The side handled (PR-24) baton is also a very good weapon, and it can also be purchased in an expandable version (by Monadnock around $100 US) for concealment. See www.galls.com . The expandable baton does have some problems though. I have seen it used on individuals to no effect by officers who know what they are doing with it. One individual was even sprayed with O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum %5) Spray with no effect, before he was hit nine times with a baton. He then knocked the baton out of the officer's hands. He was subdued and taken to jail.

If you have a baton... Practice. In training we are taught the three directions to deploy are up and away, down and away, and toward your target.(IN HIS FACE if necessary.) You are trained to avoid head and spine shots unless lethal force becomes necessary.

A good Maglight is also good to carry as a defensive weapon. I actually became pretty good at throwing them. At 10 yards you can put it through a peice of plywood. Either a 3 or 4 D-cell is good for this.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

If anyone has ever attended a steel baton class there is a cardinal rule for offensive technique. There is also the "below the neck / no head shots" caution that is mandated to as to cause the guy to think before he starts doing his thing.

The cardinal rule is strike where skin is closest to bone. {...And we have a winner....!} Who guessed it? Impact weapons work well if some simple shit is followed. Learning to put your WEIGHT BEHIND A BLOW is vital. However, when you put your weight behind any blow, it will slow that response. So we have a paradox; do you need speed in response or do you need a "put e'm down" shot? Well the 1st start-up should generally be for speed but not every time. If the fuck doesn't see it coming....it matters not a bit... (sucker punch).

Has anyone played with a Red Man? In a full out "slash and slam" on an advancing individual, a fit 20-something year old individual has about 3 full minutes before he starts getting a bit sluggish. An older gent has about 60 seconds. If you can't do what's needed in that time, God Help You.

I would be very curious to see a documented instance of an individual getting stuck with a steel baton and not going down. I'm not talking about someone getting stuck on the buttocks and thighs, but getting struck by an experienced individual who has used that thing for real before.

Here are the REAL instructional agenda for a intro class from xxxx xxxxxxxx xx xxxxxxx***.

* Open the baton close to the body by whipping toward the leg downward; keep the fucking thing close to the owner. Begin the attack or defense with the item at an advantage to YOU not to the shit-head.
* Strike where skin is closest to bone.
* Go for the hands, forearms, upper arms/elbow initially as it can be a fight stopper with minimum damage.
* Learn to put your weight into the blow: generally through the "second section" of the baton to break collar bone, upper arm, ribs, etc.
* A skilled opponent will attempt to get IN CLOSE to you, you need to keep the opponent on the periphery; don't let anyone - fighting a "range weapon", get close - use the range advantage.
* If you need to "close" with the opponent, use butt-stroke and knees.
* Lethal shots are head in line with the top of the ears. Cervical vertebrae shots with your weight behind the blow. There really aren't too many lethal shots.
* Blows to the thighs, meat of the deltoid, pectorals, and buttocks will result in little debilitating damage except a blood blister that photographs very well. Strike where skin is closest to bone.
* Always keep moving, to the best of your ability; try not to stay stationary.
* Look at the WHOLE opponent; NOT at the place you are going to strike.
* IF you want the fight to stop, TELL the goof ball to stay down. Pain may not catch up with an intoxicated person until he is quite severely injured. Talk to him!
* Do not "stab" with a retractable baton.

See, it's like a "12 step program" ? :)

*** If you want further info: PM me and explain what you need. The source IS very valid. I may choose not to refer directly & that's my right.

[Alexires]

Has anyone played with a Red Man?

For some reason, I don't think you are talking about an Indian.....or tobacco. Care to elaborate for those of us that haven't played with a Red Man?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

A "Red Man" is a suit of sorts made of high density foam, plastic, some aluminum, etc. It covers the body like armor and has a large, well made helmet. It was a concept-training idea started up by two brothers and I think they couldn't keep the patent. Anyway....One guy gets dressed up in the "Red Man" suit and the other felllow attempts to knock the fuck out of him as he advances: REPEATEDLY!

The dynamics, Methodology & techniques change and the idea is to simply "FEEL" what it's like to REALLY STRIKE AT A HUMAN, MOVING AS A HUMAN DOES. THIS IS PERHAPS ONE OF THE MOST ELEMENTALLY REALISTIC METHOD OF TRAINING WITH AN IMPACT WEAPON EVER DEVISED AS IT ALLOWS TOTALLY FULL CONTACT WITH TOTAL VARIATION IN SCENARIO AND TIME-LINE.

Most everyone tires so quickly, that they are stunned that they cannot maintain their aerobic level of performance. That is perhaps one of the first lessons; that when you REALLY are knocking the fuck out of someone, that it's hard work!

The next thing that most everyone freaks about is that you better keep moving or the Red Man is going to get you! He is often armed with a rubber knife that delivers a chalk line or smudge or a rubber stick that also marks with chalk.*** It is NOT easy to keep from getting chalked up.

The concept to to actually FEEL what it's like to strike at a human, full force, full follow-through. With a Red Man....you can. And the training is so intense you feel like you've never felt outside of a serious encounter. You even get your adrenaline up - because there are a few "tricks" to get you "up there".

It's really fun. You'd like it so much; you'd get addicted. The "Red Man" is a name brand for a variety on the same theme. The suits are quite expensive as they REALLY allow for full contact with a baseball bat, pipe, etc. They are made VERY well.


*** There are some VERY well made "rubber" weapons now that are weighted and deliver marks. Most firearms stuff is Simunition stuff or wax bullets. Retention is with a red or blue weighted plastic weapon, etc, etc. I can't remember the names of the good knives. But the red or blue firearms are common-place training stuff.

[Alexires]

That is fucking excellent. What I have found is that I have never really had to mess someone up after I started martial arts and this is both a good and a bad thing. Good, because I don't really want to attract trouble, but bad because you never know how good you are, how effecting what you are doing is, and if it will work when the adrenaline is flowing.

It might not be so hard to make such a suit. Some high density rubber, some aluminium and a wetsuit might be all you need. Motorbike helmets are good for bashing at, although not soft enough for you to use your hands.

Worth a think about, anyway. Most of the stuff like that is rather expensive when all it is is just a suit with some protection stuff that anyone with brains and some perseverance could make.

Thanks for the post Charles!

[ady1989]

My weapons of choice that I carry with me at night are my full sized KaBar and a knockoff extendable baton. It's 8'' folded and 21'' extended. I got the thing for $20. It's nice and solid, it has a foam grip and a nice sheath that I keep attached to my backpack strap. I almost never have my KaBar because I don't want to kill somebody.

A security guard spotted me a while ago and shined a flashlight in my direction. I hugged the ground and didn't move, while slowly taking the baton out. Once he got close enough I stood up and whipped it open. He ran away even though he probably had 30 lb on me and seemed fit. These thing are intimidating but I'm not a weak guy either. I never had to actually hit someone with it but I'm willing to bet it will break bones in a single hit.

[Killy]

Batons can be used with temporarily glued small mirror like improvised device for looking around corners

[Shank]

Tactical batons are very effective weapons. I have a ASP and a cheap Chinese copy and either one will do enormous damage when used correctly.

The chinese knockoff is really crappy but in a pinch it's still quite functional. When choosing one to buy, pick up each one, whip it open (if the store will allow you) and hold it up, perpendicular to the floor. Shake your hand and if it fold back into itself due to the vibration, choose another and and do the same test until you find one that will not immediately fold. Of course the ASP are really much better and will stay locked open.

I would suggest Filipino Martial Arts as a good system for learning how to use a tactical baton. But take time out to choose which FMA system to study.

When training, focus on gaining the following skills:

1. Using the bottom of the weapon in close range. You have to prepare for the possibility that you may be rushed and you won't be able to maintain the distance between you and the attacker. Even a 21" baton needs room to work effectively but with practice you can still take out an attacker at extreme close range with the weapon. Also, practice grappling with it in both the open and closed position. There are many ways to apply pressure and locks with the baton.

2. Training for power. A regular class in a good FMA school will develop accuracy but you need to learn to generate enough power for that fight-stopping strike. I suggest stacking tires and using it as a target. Hit the stack but try to go for follow through strikes instead of whipping strikes, but do train to do both kinds. Just be careful with getting carried away with tire training. It's easy to go ape on it and get wrist and elbow injuries. Go slow and build it hand and arm strength. With enough practice you'll be able to develop quick and powerful strikes.

[joffe]

Am I the only one who doesn't like collapsible batons? As far as I can see they have two advantages; 1. they're collapsible and thus easily hidden. 2. the expansion of one can have a certain psychological effect, and might prevent the situation from escalating.

Those of you who has a quality baton like an ASP, could try to hit with maximum force a heavy bag 10 or 20 times. My bet is that your ASP is pretty screwed up. OK, so you don't have hit the bad guy more than 10 or 20 times, but practicing with one can be pretty expensive.

Now, find the point of balance. Somewhere around the grip, right? So according to the laws of physics, a straight,evenly balanced wooden stick should generate more power than an ASP. So, if the concealability isn't a factor, why not stick with a stick? (pun not intended).

[Shank]

I used my cheapo tactical baton to practice opening from concealed carry and moving immediately to strikes but most of the training I do is with a regular FMA baston cut down to 21". I also have a heavier hardwood stick cut down to the same length and I use that for conditioning.

I would discourage using the actual baton for striking practice unless you have developed forearm and shoulder strength doing FMA or some other weapon system. I got tendonitis when I got crazy and started using a pipe for training. It would be far better to get more quality training time with plain rattan rather than using metal or something heavy to strike with.

Like all weapons, the tactical baton has its weaknesses and the user has to train to counteract them. The biggest disadvantage is that you'll need distance to get the weapon's major feature onto a target. Which is my I strongly recommend training for the situation when the attacker closes the distance and jams your response. This need for space also affects the tactical baton's effectiveness against a trainer knife attacker. You better be ready to defend up close because the knife attacker will want to close the gap and get his blade close to you.

[festergrump]

I'm not sure I understand why you would think the baton would be messed up by hitting a bag 20 times, or even 1000 times. Not to be rude in any way, but my guess is you have never owned one of good quality like an ASP. I'm sure you are right that if you bash something hard like a tree a zillion and one times you could screw up your baton, but for the most part it'll be fine unless used in a manner in for which it was not intended to be used (bashing people only). Replacing your bag might get costly, OTOH. Practice on homemade sandbags maybe?

There are people in the world who use knives as screwdrivers, pistols as hammers, and women as punching bags... but if these things are used as intended by "the manufacturer" they will provide a lifetime of service unless cheap and/or defective. You get what you pay for always, and IMHO the ASP rules the roost qualitywise in batonland.

Truth is, if you use your collapsable baton only once to get you out of a jam, it was well worth the money you spent on it. Buy a new one if you need to, but I highly doubt it would be necessary.

BTW, The fulcrum of mine is right at the forend of the handle as you guessed, but I am unsure of how this would diminish the effectiveness of the weapon at all unless you intended to play comic book hero "Daredevil" and throw it like he does his truncheon. Again there comes into play that intended use thing...

The advantage #1 you list is the only reason I can see a collapsable baton being needed. But then walking around my neck of the woods with a baseball bat or even a tonfa or "club" of any sort will attract the wrong kind of attention by both ends of the spectrum of folks you may encounter.

Advantage #2 mentioned IMHO should never be relied on by anyone who values their life at all in a defensive situation. If my baton comes out of it's holster outside of my property it's getting used, positively and without question, at least if I can help it. Brandishing or posturing is as useless as chestbeating. Tarzans galore on gunboard everywhere across the internet, but I should hope very few here at RS... We're too damn smart for that. ;)

[joffe]

I'm not sure I understand why you would think the baton would be messed up by hitting a bag 20 times, or even 1000 times. Not to be rude in any way, but my guess is you have never owned one of good quality like an ASP.

A while ago I worked with a security company that issued ASPs to its security guards, I was part of a training team that among other things taught the use of batons to them. No ASP survived unscathed a training session with me and the heavy bag. The problems we (the training team and the security guards) had with them were as follows; they bent, they didn't collapse when bent, they didn't open when they should if they were bent. The last point is IMHO rather important.

Truth is, if you use your collapsable baton only once to get you out of a jam, it was well worth the money you spent on it. Buy a new one if you need to, but I highly doubt it would be necessary.

That was my point too, it will probably survive the beating you give the bad guy. But I like to practice with what I carry, and practicing with an ASP that breaks down as often as we experienced is going to cost you.

BTW, The fulcrum of mine is right at the forend of the handle as you guessed, but I am unsure of how this would diminish the effectiveness of the weapon at all

That question was rhetorical, I already knew the answer. I didn't say it wouldn't make it an ineffective weapon, but the fact that the fulcrum (cool word, never heard it before) is way back will decrease the power with which you can hit (this is hard to explain, but then English is not my first language) it, compared to a straight stick where the fulcrum is in the middle or somewhere in front. So the ASP does not have any advantage there.

The advantage #1 you list is the only reason I can see a collapsable baton being needed. But then walking around my neck of the woods with a baseball bat or even a tonfa or "club" of any sort will attract the wrong kind of attention by both ends of the spectrum of folks you may encounter.

Then that's a perfect reason for carrying one. But if push comes to shove, I'd rather have a straight baton, or a solid walking stick than a collapsible baton. The walking stick might be an option in your area.

Advantage #2 mentioned IMHO should never be relied on by anyone who values their life at all in a defensive situation.

I know, that's why I used words like "can" and "might".