Germany Limits Internet Spying – US Fedgov Take Note!

[megalomania]

On Wednesday February 27, 2008 the German courts ruled that police use of Internet spying should be widely restricted. German intelligence agencies are only allowed to steal data from a suspect’s computer in severe cases involving a threat to human life or state property.

The German agents must request permission from a judge before uploading their malware viruses, they cannot collect personal information, and they are not allowed to evaluate any data not related to the investigation at hand.

This new direction of German law is being heralded as a basic right of the people. The US government needs to follow this principle as well. The fedgov manipulates the law and takes advantage of the new technology of the Internet to wipe their asses with the constitution. The fedgov takes advantage of the lack of laws, ignoring the rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, governing computers to carve out their definition of what is legal.

The courts need to act now and pass laws criminalizing the federal agencies and police. The authoritarian crazed police thugs when not held tightly on the leash of civil rights and smacked with the newspaper of public oversight will turn on the people.

We cannot give the police guns, train them to kill, and give them unrestricted power over the people and hope they have a sense of duty or honor to do their jobs. Police only take care of themselves, they protect themselves, and the intoxicating effect of authority soon goes straight to their heads leading even the most virtuous police officer on a path of personal power beyond the scope of any law they are allowed to uphold.

The Internet is not a new realm of possibilities for the fedgov to exploit. The fedgov should be required to get explicit permission after consulting the Constitution, debating laws in the Legislature, and opening up voting to the public, before they attempt any type of law enforcement activity.

The fedgov acts on the principle that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission. Or worse, they do what they want, when they want, and how they want of there is no specific law preventing them from doing so. NO!

Many fedgov law enforcement agents are guilty of acts of treason, sedition, and terrorism against the people of the United States of America. If you have any sense of morality or decency left you should immediately resign your position. Failing that, eat your gun.

Those few honest and patriotic politicians who still remain should immediately authorize a massive spending bill to greatly expand the Internal Affairs departments of all law enforcement and federal agencies. A Federal Internal Affairs Agency should be created to offer dedicated training facilities to teach the millions of citizens that are needed to acts as investigators of the investigators, the police of the police.

The police need more than just their hands tied! The people need to tie their hands and feet, blindfold them, castrate them, and stuff their dicks between their legs! Forget about registering sex offenders, we need posters and billboards plastered all over our communities when a police officer commits a criminal act. The people need to put those jackbooted feet to the fire!

[tmp]

I guess I'm a true radical Mega. For me, gun control laws are the ultimate
act of treason. Any asshole politician who pushes or helps pass a gun control
law should be tried for treason, convicted, and EXECUTED !

Most of us know and realize that the very reason for the existence of the 2nd
Amendment is that politicians can never be trusted. Weapons in the hands of
people provide the ultimate "checks and balances" against government abuse.
Forget about target shooting, hunting, protection against violent criminals.
The real reason is so we stick a gun up a politician's ass and pull the trigger !

Yes, I'm a radical and FUCK THE LIBERALS !

[jpsmith123]

Once I came to the realization that 911 was an inside job, once I was able to finally "get my mind around the concept", and fully appreciate what that means, well, that really did "change everything", as far as how I see our rulers, the rest of the country, and the future.

It's almost like having a neighbor that's a real ass; he does things that annoy you, and you've known for a long time that he's a moron, but then one day you learn that, on top of all that, he's a serial killer too...now all of a sudden all the other little things he does aren't all that important anymore...you know he's a vicious serial killer and there's not much you can really do about it.

[Zer4tul]

I guess I'm a true radical Mega. For me, gun control laws are the ultimate
act of treason. Any asshole politician who pushes or helps pass a gun control
law should be tried for treason, convicted, and EXECUTED !

Most of us know and realize that the very reason for the existence of the 2nd
Amendment is that politicians can never be trusted. Weapons in the hands of
people provide the ultimate "checks and balances" against government abuse.
Forget about target shooting, hunting, protection against violent criminals.
The real reason is so we stick a gun up a politician's ass and pull the trigger !

Yes, I'm a radical and FUCK THE LIBERALS !

Quit the bullshit, and take note of what happens in todays world. The constitution was written 300+ years ago, and thus, the second amendment was an attempt to solve problems 300 years ago. While it still remains the ultimate authority on the issue it was drafted for 300+ years ago, it is not the ultimate authority on modern problems. We know why the second amendment was passed, and quite frankly, it is wrong to attempt to justify your position on this matter using it, as the second amendment is completely out of context on the matter of modern day gun control. You cannot justify restrictions on modern day firearms, nor can you justify complete access to firearms simply by arguing the second amendment. The simple truth is that the writers of the constitution had no way in hell of envisioning something like the modern assault rife, and it is quite evident that they didn't design the constitution around a complex problem of today's world such as this.

Now as for blaming the politician for stepping in and act as the arbiters they are supposed to be, that my friend, is a grave mistake. It is their job to arbitrate, and naturally some politicians will support legislation that controls and restricts firearms, while others will support legislation that crys against restriction and control; their motives being irrelevant. Like it or not, this is how the political machine of the U.S. works, and it has worked effectively for 300+ years.

So i remind you, regardless of who you are, to think about the unforseen aspects of this situation that you apparently have overlooked. Call me pro-gun control, call this post an uncalled for rant, call it whatever you like. I am merely sick and tired of individuals spouting so called "truths", when these "truths" have sides that have been completely overlooked.


Now as for the German decision to limit Internet Spying, i believe this to be a wise decision that the U.S. should follow.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Quit the bullshit, and take note of what happens in todays world. The constitution was written 300+ years ago, and thus, the second amendment was an attempt to solve problems 300 years ago. While it still remains the ultimate authority on the issue it was drafted for 300+ years ago, it is not the ultimate authority on modern problems. We know why the second amendment was passed, and quite frankly, it is wrong to attempt to justify your position on this matter using it, as the second amendment is completely out of context on the matter of modern day gun control.....
No, you cut the bullshit. you have an ad hominem argument if you are not presenting just what is so different about the concept of gun control then and now. Conceptualizing anything modern has NO bearing what so ever on the concept of the citizenry being able to over through the government. Because we had no way to conceptualize the internet back in the 1950's we should censor it today? BULLSHIT! Censorship is censorship.
....Woops...there goes the basis of the argument. All things mechanical (electronic, whatever) evolve and grow in some manner. A set of governing laws has it's basis in defined morality and rights, not minutia. Majority voting Supreme Court Justices said as much.

Now YOU think about the unforeseen aspects of this situation that you apparently have overlooked.

[megalomania]

The Constitution can be amended, and it is only 231 years old. If our current politicians and modern legislature feels that the 2nd Amendment is wrong, then let them amend it. Why isn't that happening? Because the Constitution is a timeless piece of law that transcends old and current society.

Do you mean to imply free speech is also archaic? Freedom to assemble? The right to fair and equal treatment under the law?

The 2nd amendment was put into place to allow American citizens to overthrow their government if it ever became tyrannical. The Found Fathers had to overthrow the English government by force of arms, arms they were not allowed to have. The fedgov has machine guns and tanks, as should the people if we need to fight them. Better yet, the federal agencies and military needs to be neutered and limited to independent state militias, this way we won't be interfering in the rest of the worlds problems if we do not have a central military.

The federal government should never be allowed to have any type of weapon. The power currently concentrated in the fedgov should be dissolved and given back to the states, and reserved for the people!

This all begins with taxes. Taxes should be for the state. The federal government cannot exist if we close the purse strings. Lets see how well the fedgov agencies steal our freedoms when they have to foot their own bills, or work unpaid.

It is precisely because the Internet is a new phenomenon that the fedgov is exploiting it. There are no Constitutional precedents that prevent them from violating our civil and human rights. I say this is the exact opposite way to go about this. I say the fedgov should have to go to the courts first, hat in hand, eyes lowered, and seek permission before attempting ANYTHING new. They should be required to get permission from the people!

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The non-rifled musket WAS the assault weapon of the 18th century. The printing press was the blog of that period. The statement often made that the Constitution/Bill of Rights is a Living Document is code for the need for re-interpretation of the original statements therein. There is nothing ambiguous about that document that needs re-interpretation. Conceptually, it is what it purports to be; our constitution for the basis of our government: our prescription for our way of life.

[Hirudinea]

Quit the bullshit, and take note of what happens in todays world. The constitution was written 300+ years ago, and thus, the second amendment was an attempt to solve problems 300 years ago. While it still remains the ultimate authority on the issue it was drafted for 300+ years ago, it is not the ultimate authority on modern problems. We know why the second amendment was passed, and quite frankly, it is wrong to attempt to justify your position on this matter using it, as the second amendment is completely out of context on the matter of modern day gun control.

The 10 Commandments are thousands of years old yet "Thou shalt not murder", "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not bear false witness" are still sound today, some ideas transcend the time in which they were first spoken.

Forget about registering sex offenders, we need posters and billboards plastered all over our communities when a police officer commits a criminal act. The people need to put those jackbooted feet to the fire!

While I do admit to a fascist authoritarian streak :D and I think that a strong police force is necessary, I also believe that when your given great powers (such as the police) and you fuck it up, you should have to face VERY harsh consequences, hanging corrupt cops (and judges, lawyers, politicians) wouldn't be unreasonable.

Now as for the German decision to limit Internet Spying, i believe this to be a wise decision that the U.S. should follow.

They should, but won't

[megalomania]

As far as I can recall Ron Paul is the only presidential candidate in any election I have been alive for that has ever uttered the "C" word, Constitution. Oh what a novel concept to actually use the founding principles of this nation to guide our law and policy!

With the exception of Ron Paul no president will ever rescind the growing tyrannical powers of this nation. Conservatives and liberals alike who are in power are too firmly entrenched in business and media to allow an upstart would be leader who wants to actually help regular Americans.

If the demorats win this election we will be too busy bankrupting the nation to pay for a failed health care plan to worry about insignificant triviality like freedom. If some of those other Republicans win we will be up to our ears in jihadis after we invade Iranistan and Poland...

[LibertyOrDeath]

Amen to that, Mega. In every election we're given the choice between losing our freedom to Marxists (Democrats) and fascists (Republicans). The Democrats are as bad as they've always been, and the Republicans have become even worse with the rise of the neocons since 9/11.

Then Ron Paul comes along. For the first time that I can remember, a politician of unimpeachable character and honesty has the balls to stand up to the smarmy faggots propped up by the establishment and point out how they're destroying our freedoms in the name of "security." And what happens? Most of the "land of the free and home of the brave" turns its collective back on him because he opposes the welfare-warfare state. People think it's more important to get government handouts or to "kick ass" for Israel in the Middle East than to be free right here at home.

So, America will get more of the same old shit it's been getting since God-knows-when. We'll continue to lose our freedoms in the name of security. More Internet monitoring, more gun control, more random searches, more roadblocks and checkpoints. The only people who will retain some freedom will be those of us on boards like this who continue to defiantly do as we please under the radar.

Quit the bullshit, and take note of what happens in todays world. The constitution was written 300+ years ago, and thus, the second amendment was an attempt to solve problems 300 years ago. While it still remains the ultimate authority on the issue it was drafted for 300+ years ago, it is not the ultimate authority on modern problems. We know why the second amendment was passed, and quite frankly, it is wrong to attempt to justify your position on this matter using it, as the second amendment is completely out of context on the matter of modern day gun control. You cannot justify restrictions on modern day firearms, nor can you justify complete access to firearms simply by arguing the second amendment. The simple truth is that the writers of the constitution had no way in hell of envisioning something like the modern assault rife, and it is quite evident that they didn't design the constitution around a complex problem of today's world such as this.I'm afraid you're the one who's bullshitting.

The Second Amendment is nothing more than a logical extension of the principle that legitimate government is ONLY by consent of the governed. In order for that principle to be in actual effect -- whether 300 years ago, today, or 300 years from now -- the population has to be physically capable of overthrowing its own government through guerrilla warfare. If that's not possible, then there is NO check on government power, and the population is at the mercy of its rulers. That's why effective, modern small arms must ALWAYS remain in the hands of the population.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Looking back on this election and Ron Paul I can see he fell into a political trap. He spoke to an issue that should be avoided: abortion.
It's a no-win discussion. However the guy is a doctor and most likely felt that no issue should be above discussion.That's not true in the political climate of today, fraught with pitfalls of the "no-win" discussion. Gun control is actually another no-win discussion. The smart politicos of today stay away from them to the best of their ability.

In actuality, in terms of voting record, the candidate with the least pro-gun control votes in the Senate is Obama. As strange as it appears, he voted to stop H.S. from confiscating firearms in an emergency by that agency. He did vote FOR the ability to sue the manufactures of firearms however. But the other two are out of the closet on this and both Clinton & McCain have stated publicly that they would advance further controls (mistake....) & felt comfortable with same.

However, I deeply believe that Obama will be a pro-control President, it's just that he is astute enough to know to stay away from that discussion. I always look to the voting record of the candidate if they are from a congressional seat. ....If a governor, I look to the economic strength of their tenure in office (in that State).

In this election I would bet that Billery will be elected. She will get the thing from the Super Delegates, not from popular vote (will of the People). We will thus have a chasm between our leadership and military.... Thus we will have a shrill bitch in the White House, making enemies of friends and providing a focus point for ill will. How much more political bullshit can this country afford?

[jpsmith123]

As I see it, the machinations to start another war (maybe followed by martial law in the U.S.) are already underway.

The recent assassination of Imed Mugniyeh, apparently by Israeli agents, is obviously another attempt to start the big war that the Zionist neocon traitors and their colleagues in Israel are demanding. (And if that ultimately doesn't work, the next step may be to simply accelerate the genocide/ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians or start murdering people in Lebanon again).

Anyway, this reinforces my belief that the PNAC terrorists presently in power in the U.S. may not intend to leave the choice of more war up to an "Obama administration" (or some other administration).

Apparently, not only have the PNACers so far failed to accomplish their bloody stated goals in the Mideast, but they've actually placed the US/Israeli axis in a politically, economically and militarily worse situation than it was before.

Lastly, many Bush administration operatives (including Bush and Cheney themselves, obviously) may have set themselves up for both civil and criminal prosecution, not the least of which for their complicity in the 911 false-flag attack.

In light of all this, I hope I'm wrong, but I'm rather pessimistic about the future...I can't see the PNACers handing over power to anyone else at the risk of such total failure and criminal liability.

[megalomania]

Come to think of it, electing Hillary may be just the spark we need to ignite this country's sense of patriotism. If she wins it will be one of the most politically correct do-nothing presidencies in the history of the country, the enemies of America will attack, others sensing our weakness and foolishness will take advantage of us, the health care system will turn out to be a huge flop, and our country will be plunged into such a state of chaos and despair that those not receiving handouts (i.e. all of us despite paying 40% taxes) will dispense with the whole "political correctness" experiment once and for all!

It takes a crisis to bring the people together, and Hillary can be that crisis which brings the American people together... against Hillary.

I cast my vote for Ron Paul today. I was almost tempted to get the demorat ballot and vote against Bitchery. I liken voting for Obama or Hillary as choosing to be executed by hanging or the electric chair. You're dead either way.

[Rbick]

Damnit I love our constitution, and what our country use to be...

It takes a crisis to bring the people together, and Hillary can be that crisis which brings the American people together... against Hillary.

I cast my vote for Ron Paul today. I was almost tempted to get the demorat ballot and vote against Bitchery. I liken voting for Obama or Hillary as choosing to be executed by hanging or the electric chair. You're dead either way.

Thats funny that you say that. I recently read in my local paper (city of about 60,000) a story about the recent polls and interviews of people who voted. There were several people who said that it was the first and only time they will vote for a Clinton, and after they left the booth they threw up. Yes they actually said that! It was hilarious. The reason for this is they despise Obama but think McCain has a better chance against Obama than Hilary. The situation was vise versa for those who felt Hilary could be beaten by McCain more readily than Obama. People are terrified of the idea that either of these people may be running our country. Not to mention that bitch Nancy Polosi is in charge of congress! HOLY SHIT!

Only those bastard liberals, the sheeple, and the know it all college students who can't see the light of day because their heads are so far up their asses are the ones dumb enough to actually want one of these fucks in office. And, unfortunately for us, those liberal bastards make up a good part of our population.

I'm thinking about volunteering with a unit headed over to Afghanistan later this year. They tell me my past military experience would be helpful in the war effort. I don't know though, if Hilary gets elected, I might hang back here and watch our country fall apart.

Sorry to get off topic. But yes, internet censorship is bullshit, go Germany! :D

[Hirudinea]

Interesting devlopement in Canada today, a court in Ontario, a court through out a case against a kiddie pornorgrapher because the police didn't have a warrant to record what he said in a private chat room.

[jpsmith123]

Rbick why would you want to go to Afghanistan to help Bush prop up a puppet government as part of a bloody, senseless, already-doomed-to-failure imperial project? Do you really believe, especially at this point in time, that the Taliban and/or Osama Bin Laden were somehow responsible for 9/11?

[Rbick]

Ok now you made it fucking personal.

Firstly, I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. Yes I believe that are people that want to kill us. Show me proof other than ridiculous speculations that are equivalent to saying that there are mutant space monkeys on the rings of Neptune.

Secondly, I'm not going over there for Bush anyway. Two of my best buddies are going and I am volunteering to go with them because they are my Brothers. Its not about Bush or oil or killing, its about the guys out there fighting for what they think is right. I am going there to give the people of Afghanistan the freedoms they should get. Not this be executed if you don't conform bullshit which was PROVEN to be practiced by the Taliban.

I have already been over there a few times, and I saw firsthand that what we are doing IS helping people. I made Iraqi friends who told me PERSONALLY in face to face conversations that they can't thank us enough for all we have done. They are happy! They said that to my face, you cannot argue with what happened to me in real life.

Have you ever talked to an Iraqi? Or do you just quote the bullshit that CNN spews out onto the public. Its about equivalent to Marlyn Manson pissing on the crowd at one of his concerts. Don't believe this shit the media is pumping you with, because it contradicts almost everything I saw when I was there.

I'll be the first to admit the US gov't can be "shady", but I'm tell you what we, the soldiers, are over there for. So unless you've actually been to war, SHUT THE FUCK UP with your little neo nazi flag burning bullshit and pull your head out of your ass! :mad:

Oh and internet censorship is BS...

[jpsmith123]

Being that my last two replies to Rbick's infantile bullshit have been deleted, I guess the moderators don't agree with what I've said and have decided to censor?

I didn't mean to hijack this thread and take it "off-topic", but the problem of the loss of freedom in the U.S. is largely the result of the PNAC agenda and resultant militarism and aggression which is destroying our country politically, economically, and militarily. That is, if our elites didn't have monstrous, illegal agendas to pursue, they wouldn't need to worry about things like internet freedom of speech for the peasants, etc.

It's ironic that Rbick directly and/or indirectly supports the PNAC agenda and associated aggression, and all the associated consequences, while at the same time he rails against "internet censorship". It needs to be pointed out that you can't have it both ways.

Anyway, based on what I've read here in the past, I always thought that many here (e.g. NBK) were tuned in to what was happening in the world today and especially what was happening in the U.S., and in light of this, something else maybe should be pointed out.

With the economy heading into the toilet, with Bush administration complicity in the 9/11 "terrorist" attacks no longer even debatable between reasonable people; with Bush and his bloodthirsty Zionist handlers poised to attack Iran, unleashing God only knows what horrific consequences; and with the threatening and pissing-Russia-off almost daily, for example, and, having already put into place the "legal" infrastructure to implement the police state they will soon be needing, I think it's important to point out that it will be people like Rbick who will be on the "other side" and will be rounding up dissenters and shooting people down in the streets "when the crackdown comes".

[Secong Nature]

Noting the above statement I would just like to point out to Rbick that he reached the epitome of hypocrisy just then, saying that there is no real proof of 9/11 not being a terrorist act by the taliban and then turning around and calling us sheep for believing everything CNN tells us.
Also on the german thing... Good work on their behalf, it seems that they are practicing democracy thats actually democratic. Unfortunately here its alot harder for me to see straight as the whole country here is too small and subdued to have enough extremism to analyise the state of things.

[megalomania]

I can't rightly say I disagreed with what you had to say since I didn't read any of the last several posts. I saw flames, personal attacks directed at each other, so I deleted them. That's what PM's are for :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I was just discussing go back to Dresden for holiday with the wife as we had been there previously and made a "museum week" out of the whole affair. There is NOTHING like the museums in Dresden; fantastic! And it's driving distance from Prague. I've had a wonderful time there previously. But we got a bit sick and went to see a doctor.

In seems Germany has supplemented health coverage; so that a doctor's visit costs next to nothing. I only hope that when Hillery becomes The Woman, that we don't go down the toilet with stupid health coverage. I know it could be done reasonably. But then you will loose the really GOOD doctors as they want serious money for what they do. The people in Germany speak of the really GOOD doctors leaving to practice abroad.

And of course the other side issue is that we have the "15 dollar Tylenol" & "the $500 X-Ray" as a means to an economic end. There is a whole element of our economy that is based on inflated healthcare rates. That has to be either supplemented or done away with and the gap filled. IF we could do away with people leeching from the system (illegal aliens that did not pay INTO the system) then we may be able to break even. If every person who pays taxes gets the minimum healthcare coverage it would still not be balanced. but if we allow a free-loading of health care costs we WILL be busted in short order. It's really simple arithmetic.

I think the idealism certainly changes when someone actually becomes President and perhaps when She sees the numbers She will abbreviate the idea. ....Better get really ready for a feminine world. It's going to be "clown time" in the old White house. Not that this guy we have now is any Prince... The major issue with Bush is that he may have been the WORST communicator we have ever had. His agenda is no worse than many previous Presidents (I don't know how many remember LBJ but he was a serious asshole). Or "Jimmy Carter", who was serious embarrassment as well. But it's Bush's communication skills (or lack thereof) is what makes him a laughing stock. .....So now we will get a shill shrew that hates all things masculine. - What a world.

[jpsmith123]

I can't rightly say I disagreed with what you had to say since I didn't read any of the last several posts. I saw flames, personal attacks directed at each other, so I deleted them. That's what PM's are for :)

Yet his post where he first started with the personal attacks and fuck this and fuck that, and pull your head out of your ass, blah blah blah, you let that stay?

[Silentnite]

Congrats to Germany for realizing what democracy is, by the people for the people.`Hopefully we can learn something from them before its too late. Ironic, us learning from Germany on how to be democratic less then 100 years after their totalitarian regime was dismantled.

Off topic: Jp, take it to PM's. Don't argue with a mod, let alone Mega. Not to mention that post you refer to isn't personal unless you do consider yourself to be a know-it-all college student who likes Hillary/Obama. And you believe your head to reside in your ass.

[tmp]

Mega, in one of your posts, you stated that electing Hillary might unite us in
a way. Pissing off the voters seems to have this effect. Remember, when
Bill Clinton 1st proposed the ban of so-called "assault" weapons ? Peole went
out in droves and purchased them. The NRA experienced a surge in new
memberships. It's absolutely true that sometimes a kick in the ass does more
for a cause ! It's the reaction of people against oppressive government.
Hillary may be the perfect "lightning rod" because her hubby pulled the same
shit and lost Congress in the 1994 mid-terms - a reaction to his policies.

I personally know people who never owned a gun in his/her lifetime and, yet,
went out to purshase an AR-15 just because he/she resented the idea that
government didn't want him/her to own it !

Right now, my state, Maryland, is experiencing a deficit in cash to fund the
state's budget. No fucking wonder. The governor raised our taxes last year
and now is wondering why the money isn't there. His increase of the sales
tax and $1 increase per pack of cigarettes didn't bring in the revenue he
expected. Tax the citizens and they change their spending behaviors.

As for Internet, Gov. Marty O'Malley, is re-instating his call for taxes on
computer-based services. While I disagree with this, I'll take a tax over
censorship anytime. The problems, of course, are costs to many who could
not absorb an increase in taxes. Truly, the lesser of many evils.

[Bugger]

As for Internet, Gov. Marty O'Malley, is re-instating his call for taxes on computer-based services. While I disagree with this, I'll take a tax over censorship anytime. The problems, of course, are costs to many who could not absorb an increase in taxes. Truly, the lesser of many evils.
Taxes on computer-based services, or on internet traffic, are practically unenforceable, - except if all the governments of the world were to be parties to a global treaty/conspiracy. Countries or states may be able to control traffic on landline-based internet services within their boundaries, - but not on satellite-based internet services.

[Rbick]

Noting the above statement I would just like to point out to Rbick that he reached the epitome of hypocrisy just then, saying that there is no real proof of 9/11 not being a terrorist act by the taliban and then turning around and calling us sheep for believing everything CNN tells us.

Just to defend myself for sec; That is not hypocrisy at all, and I wasn´t attacking you, but those who religiously follow the media as truth. CNN is full of crap and no, through all evidence and things I have seen (NOT just CNN), I observed that there is no solid evidence of it being an inside job. Pretty simple and straight forward. I will admit, the gov´t is doing a good job at using 9/11 as an excuse to watch our internet activities and what not.

jpsmith: I believe you are the one who insulted me by telling me I was wrong for supposedly wanting to "help Bush", which is not what I was trying to say from the get go, so leave me alone.

Anyway, I think its interesting how listening in on conversations and internet bugging is in fact outside of the governments capabilites, legally. I think there was just a big fiasco about that with Bush asking telecommunication companies to allow them to tap peoples phones after a bill expired.

If they do look at our internet activities and listen to our phone conversations, who will stop them anyway? We can´t notice, and is there really a good checks and balance system for the NSA to follow?

[megalomania]

Hillary had 8 years as first lady to get a health care system, but that never happened. I remember when Bill was first elected, Hillary stumped very hard to get a health care system, but it all vanished. What makes her think anything is different now?

What is different now is that she is trying to get elected. Bush said a lot of wonderful things 4 years ago at this time, none of which has come to pass. I am old enough now to be cynical of politicians, their campaign promises are not worth shit, and in fact what they promise is the least likely thing to come to pass during their administration.

If you replaced the words "health care" with "video games" how does the meaning of what is being said change? It does not because it amounts to everyone thinking they have a right to get free stuff they didn't pay for, only they did pay for it, they paid a lot more for it than if they had just bought it themselves.

Free universal video games for American citizens should be our right. We should all have access to a video game system regardless of income. The rising cost of video games is forcing Americans to make choices, the choice between playing video games or eating at McDonalds...

There is a very small percentage of the American population that could actually benefit from free health care. This is the same population that is supposed to be the only ones eligible for welfare, food stamps, job training, disability, etc. How many people on welfare are perfectly capable of working, but do not want to get a job? When you get unemployment after losing a job, something you pay for partially, you only get that for 6 months.

I am all for the government helping people out when they are down, but enabling is a completely different thing altogether. If the government wants to make change in the health care system they should attack the source of high prices, they should actually cure some disease instead of treat it. Having citizens dependent on the government tit makes them good little voters, it creates a supplicated underclass of slaves who have traded masters whip for masters handouts. The sad part is these people do not even know they are slaves, they are nothing but pets and they don't care as long as master keeps the food bowl filled.

[Rbick]

There is a very small percentage of the American population that could actually benefit from free health care. This is the same population that is supposed to be the only ones eligible for welfare, food stamps, job training, disability, etc. How many people on welfare are perfectly capable of working, but do not want to get a job? When you get unemployment after losing a job, something you pay for partially, you only get that for 6 months.


I had to force myself to watch a video by Micheal Moore about free health care, which is the current system used in Canada and the UK. Of course he pointed out any thing that could be good about it and blew it out of proportion, forgetting all the horrible things. For example, waiting lists in both countries are horribly long. So if you need heart surgery, too bad, gotta wait. Or the fact that they are only able to conduct so many MRIs, CT scans, ect. per year. So if you snap your leg at the end of the year, too bad, have to wait. The funding is also very strained in these countries, causing lack of updated equipment and needed repair.

As mega stated also, this allows people to be lazy as hell and still get the same insurance that a hard working citizen does. So everyone is treated the same? Sounds like communism :p

There was also an interview with someone who had been on healthcare for her entire life. The gov´t never realized that she had been on for 65 years and never tried to get a job! Outstanding to see what our tax dollars go to.

If the government wants to make change in the health care system they should attack the source of high prices, they should actually cure some disease instead of treat it.

All I have to say to that is "amen".