New Rimfire! So Expensive!

[HMTD Factory]

Remember the .17/22LR from Aguila I was talking about?

Hornady(which founded the idea of .17 necked
rimfires) caught the idea again and worked out a .17/22mag version.

It is said to have better ballistics than .22mag. Personally I stick with .223Rem or .22PPC for varmint shoot. Now there isn't any gun that I know of that is built for .17/22.

Picture of the new Hornady .17/22WMR with A-MAX match bullets.

http://www.acusport.com/web/Hornady17HMR-11-12.asp

[AR-15 Man]

That sucks. Sounds just like some scheme to get money. I don't see anything so special to make this worth the price. Oh yea have you seen the .458 SOCOM upper for the AR-15? Now that has some use.

[HMTD Factory]

.458 SOCOM? I havn't really read about it,
is it a subsonic round for silencers? It
shouldn't feel good being hit by a number
that starts with a 4.

In my first thought the .17 rimfires
wouldn't be of much use. Still there are
people who got tired of "rimfire = .22" and
want to see a bore size their cleaning rod
won't fit in.

The size of the .17HMR did ring some bell,
so I tried to go through my magazines see if
I can compare it with the new H&K PDW round
but I can't find the magazine, maybe later
I'll post it up.

[nbk2000]

Airgun pellets are .177 in size.

I've also seen mentioned on another gun forum that there are barrels that'll squeeze a .22 down to .2, .17, and even .15.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[EventHorizon]

Some creative remanufacturing would yeild a round that should penetrate a BPV nicely, and at some distance too.

------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[HMTD Factory]

.17HMR - factory AMAX bullets + mean bullets = 4.5mm H&K PDW rounds = dead cops = yelping in pain with rough prison sex

That's what I thought, except that the last item isn't appealing.

[HMTD Factory]

There!

H&K 4.6mm PDW

actual bullet dia = 4.65mm
bullet weight = 25 grains
bullet material : copper-plated steel, tumble
-inducing asymmetrical tip
performance in designated firearm :
muzzle velocity = just under 2400 fps
muzzle energy = 312 ft/lbs
barrel : polygonal rifling for better gas seal with the use of steel projectiles.


.17HMR

actual bullet dia = .172"
bullet weight = 25 grains (A-MAX)
bullet material : copper-jacketed, lead core,
polymer tipped (A-MAX)
performance in velocity barrel :
muzzle velocity = 2550 fps
muzzle energy = you calculate(350 ft-lb?)

Since the PDW round is fired in a 7" barrel
while the .17 is fired in a velocity barrel,
despite the data shows, these two rounds are
on par with each other.

In my opinion the .17 sure can be made into
a PDW round but with minor disadvantages :

Inherent accuracy : the PDW round has a
stubbier body column, thus the PDW round will
have more consistent powder burning.(No, you
won't care if you are to shoot full-auto.)

Action length\weight : The PDW round being
shorter, benefits from reduced length/weight
in magazine, action, and chamber.(But extra
5 onces = exercise)

Remanufacture problem : Don't forget the PDW
is a rimless cartridge while the .17HMR is a
rimfire. Kinetic bullet pullers can't work
on a rimfire, there must be money invested in
at least a reloading press, special shell
holder(can't grip the rim), collet-type
bullet puller , and a custom seater die.
(which costs nothing for a reloader that has
a workshop.)

Cost : .17HMR is expensive, unless Hornady is
willing to supply you primed cases.(which is
so much cheaper)

You be the judge for if it's worth it to
improvise a full-auto .17HMR PDW.

[AR-15 Man]

Well first the .458 SOCOM is a round designed for a special made upper for an AR-15. I am pretty sure it is sub sonic. But the thing is the round is so massive. 10 are held in a standard AR-15 30 rounder. Now that is impressive. www.tromix.com (http://www.tromix.com) is the site for the uppers. As for using the .17 rimfire (or whatever it is caled) for a PDW why not use the 7.62x25mm Tokarov round. It can penetrate handgun resistant vests. Or why not just make hi velocity 9mm bullets with .380 light weight bullets in IMI black tip subgun ammo. Now it will have short distance but might be able to pentrate

[HMTD Factory]

I heard somewhere that a guy in around 19
centries built a barrel that squeezes a lead
bullet smaller in dia, hoping to maintain
high pressure in the barrel to get better
velocity, but failed cuz there's too much
energy wasted in squeezing the lead bullet,
after the bullet exited the barrel, the
bullet is too long to stablize.

Did some search on the net, this forum is
doing some talk regarding .17 rimfires.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000268.html

So Volquartsen and Aguila is making .17/22LR.
Volquartsen makes barrels for Ruger 10/22 and
Aguila loads the ammo. (Probably a conversion
barrel only, since the new ammo is the same
length as old .22LR, action and magazine
stays the same.)

On the other hand Hornady is making .17/22WMR (.17HMR). Both Marlin and Ruger will offer
guns in the Hornady caliber.(The news is in a
current issue gun magazine)

According to a member of that forum, some
private ammo maker is already making .17HMR
for sale (there's your source for primed
cases.)

[HMTD Factory]

If memory is right, 7.62Toka, 9mm, 4.6mm HK,
5.7FN all have muzzle energy above 300ft-lb.

What the Toka and 9 don't have are velocity
and thin case body : high velocity bullets ride on flat trajectories. With flatter trajectory, the shooter can engage longer distance without worring about bullet drop.
Thin case body is good for short magazine.
It takes a longer magazine to fit 30 fatter
rounds. MP5(9mm) use 30rd mag but UMP(.45) use only 25rd mag --there's one example.

Toka and 9 sure can penetrate body armor if
properly doped, lethal at bank-robbing or
thug-plinking distances.

[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited 12-02-2001).]

[AR-15 Man]

Well I am pretty sure the subgun 7.62 Toka will go thru body armor on it's own. But the rounds that do won't work in a Tokarov pistol without destorying it only the CZ 25 subgun or CZ-52 (someone correct me on the subguns I think that is the wrong number). As for 9mm yea you do lose quite a bit of range. Now here is an idea. The 10mm at first was to hot for the FBI so someone created the 40 Smith and Wesson (but with thinner brass so it will Kaboom in Glocks sometimes). Well later someone took the 40 S&W and made the .357 Sig which is a bottle necked round. Well why not bottle neck 10mm and use the .357 Sig bullet. Then modify a MAC-10 to use the new round. If someone had the equipment I could see the project going under $1000 but I mean it would be worth it. Also I hear the MP-5s in 10mm break the rollers a lot anyone know if that is true.

[nbk2000]

The .224 BOZ uses a 5.56mm bullet in a necked down 10mm casing.

http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html

They modified a Glock 20 (10mm) to fire these bullets.

http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/images/guns/glockboz.jpg

It'll penetrate 1.4mm titanium plate + 30 layers of kevlar, BP glass, car bodies, etc.

Here's a copy-cat loading that'll work in the CZ-52:

http://www.owlnet.com/quality/223%20Timbs.htm

Case specs for the .224BOZ are here:

http://members.aol.com/varmintline/Ballistics/22-10MMs.GIF

Small, fast, and hard = Penetration of JBT BA.

If you know the enemy is armed with such weapons (.224), don't even bother wearing a vest since it won't protect you anyways, and will weigh you down.

Let THEM wear the heavy vests while you dance around them, shooting them with YOUR CZ-52 copy-cat. :)

Remember;

Light + Fast = Life

Slow + Heavy = Death

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-02-2001).]

[HMTD Factory]

My range warden once said something about his
10mm auto Glock --"Shoots like a rifle!"

The 10 is more ferocius than 9, but I doubt
it will break H&K rollers--since the same
roller is used in HK G3 types to delay 308
blowback.

[HMTD Factory]

Most agencies are willing to pay and use
necked down versions of existing caliber,
this proved very economical since there' will
only be a barrel change.

From the case capacity, 224BOZ will have more
punch than 5.7FN or 4.6HK, but will recoil
more as well. They said there's a PDW
project involving a short AR-15 chambered in
.224BOZ, new toys for you, AR-15 Man.

I also heard the Sweden had necked down 9mm
to their favorite 6.5mm, said there will be
a barrel available for Glock. Since I like
6.5mm as much as a Swedish does, I might
just want one.

[AR-15 Man]

Now you see why I have high praise of the CZ-52. Cheaper and just as good. I had heard of the .224 BOZ but never head more than the fastest real handgun round (sorry Encores in 300 WIN Mag don't count). NBK you are right sometimes body armor is just plain USELESS. Other times it is worth its weigth in gold. That is why I TRY to always have a rifle with me but I know that is impossible and I feel handguns are just tools to get you to your rifle. Now what I am wondering is why someone would chamber an AR down to 10mm just to use the 223 round again? I mean recoil isn't that bad for .223. But I guess some REMF cry baby needs one. I have heard of the Swiss bottle necked 9mm. That is great. Maybe it will make a lot of military's change. I know that the G3 uses roller but the same rollers as the MP5? I just don't see how that works but if I ever get the chance to compare I will. I knew the trigger parts were the same and a few others. Quite a few of the cops in my area use 10mm. I don't see why. But then again my family uses .357s.

[SofaKing]

Now if the Glock 18C came in 10mm, that would be interesting. But wait it does, becaue there's a patent for doing that. (there's a pdf floating around)
On another note there's a conversion for the ar-15 in 50AE, the downside is that there's no high cap mags. I just think people like making conversions for the ar-15.

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With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom

[AR-15 Man]

Hahahaha a glock 18 in 10mm? If you didn't have a stock or foward grip your third round would be right between your eyes. Oh yea about the AR in 50 AE why would you want Hi Cap mags? Also a 40 round AR-15 mag will hold 15 50 AEs. But even if they had 30 50 AEs it would be hitting he ground. And with a round like that you follow up shots are slow so a mag change every 10-15 shots isn't that big of a deal.

[HMTD Factory]

Guns for .17 HMR have come out...
A break action from New England Firearm
Two bolt guns from Marlin
No semi-autos yet...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=909904&a=13926301&p=57218641&Sequence=0&res=high